: Who's considering a 2013 M5? Be honest



M5eater
01-13-12, 08:40 PM
Honestly, I can't say that a new toy that manages 20+mpg, is F/I for easy modification, looks pretty good and is loaded to the gills with technology is out of my relm of interest.

Would I trade the V2 for it? I just don't know. Certinally 0-60 and ring times are identical.. so you're paying 40K for some gadets, better gas mileage, huge mantiance costs, and some exclusivity. Overall performance wise the car is a letdown as competition for the V2, even M5 board's fanboys realize this to some degree.

I don't forsee myself doing it, but I can't say I won't stroll up to a dealer for a test drive, I still miss the perfect attention to details of the German scene. Maybe after they depreciate by 40% in 2 years I'll take another look .

needspeed
01-13-12, 08:46 PM
I did not bother to wait for the new M5, I bought my CTS-V coupe and the M5 was not in the running for me. Even if I needed a sedan, I would buy the V. I rather buy another Ferrari then put the money into the M5. I do love my X5 M though........Steve

smackdownCTSV
01-13-12, 09:16 PM
I'll pass. It probably has more on the top end considering the twin turbo's, and higher trap speed, but nothing a V with a pulley and tune should worry about. Besides, it's way overpriced. $90K? Hah!

M5eater
01-13-12, 09:48 PM
I'll pass. It probably has more on the top end considering the twin turbo's, and higher trap speed, but nothing a V with a pulley and tune should worry about. Besides, it's way overpriced. $90K? Hah!

Past 100-110 I'm sure it would murder a V2. The E60 did that past 120. As you mention though, you not only could easily build a 6-700whp V2, but you could buy the car *and* build it for under the M5's MSRP. I think that my be the reason I keep the V2. The aftermarket is limitless so you're not stuck paying dinan $40K for 700hp.

King335i
01-13-12, 11:29 PM
I would love the M5 in theory, but the fact the entire time you're in the car the engine note you hear is a pre-recorded playback of the car on a dyno (which to me is just lame as shit) just kills the whole thing for me. BMW calls it Active Audio Design or something along those lines. Tech like that shouldn't be in an M car, you should be able to hear the real damn engine!

buddyg
01-13-12, 11:33 PM
Agree with everything said plus I think the V looks way better. It certainly stands out more, the M5 looks like any other BMW sedan. Or like a myriad of other four door sedans, just bland styling nothing different.

cvs
01-13-12, 11:58 PM
I sat in one at the Detroit auto show. The interior seemed cramped with the huge center console and it was missing the third pedal. Only thing I liked more than my vagon was the head liner.

neuronbob
01-14-12, 06:26 AM
No thanks. I think the new M is a fabulous-looking car and should drive like a bat out of hell, but I am not interested in spending that much on a car right now. V is almost paid off, I own my other two cars outright, and I don't want another car payment for a long time.

BI2011ESV
01-14-12, 08:20 AM
Never crossed my mine until I seen this thread. Still wouldn't even think about a M5!

930chas
01-14-12, 08:33 AM
I would think about the new cls63 or e63 before the m5. But either way love the fact that the ctsv is somewhat simplistic in nature and really don't see another 4 door sedan that I would prefer to own.

WhoseCadillacIsThat
01-14-12, 08:36 AM
I would love the M5 in theory, but the fact the entire time you're in the car the engine note you hear is a pre-recorded playback of the car on a dyno (which to me is just lame as shit) just kills the whole thing for me. BMW calls it Active Audio Design or something along those lines. Tech like that shouldn't be in an M car, you should be able to hear the real damn engine!

I wouldn't be surprised that this system is an engine noise cancellation system that went totally wrong so it was basically 'covered'. It's just silly!

We here in the US have so few highways that a high speed car can be of any benefit as it would be in Germany on the autobahns designed for speed. We are so well protected from ourselves, obey the speed limits and don't stub your toe... My brother is a German automobile fan and I stand back and watch him dump money into these cars just to keep them running correctly. I'll stay in the US and drive my 'V' - Thanks anyway....

smackdownCTSV
01-14-12, 08:45 AM
don't stub your toe...
http://theoppositeofawesome.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/toe-faces-stub.jpg

WhoseCadillacIsThat
01-14-12, 09:00 AM
http://theoppositeofawesome.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/toe-faces-stub.jpg

Oh my goodness! Is that anguish or what!!!!???

M5eater
01-14-12, 09:56 AM
I would think about the new cls63 or e63 before the m5. But either way love the fact that the ctsv is somewhat simplistic in nature and really don't see another 4 door sedan that I would prefer to own.

the new E63 AMG is a wonderful piece of work too, but, I don't think it attracts the same kind of attention that the F10 m5 will. The new M3 will not be comming in sedan form(they've already stopped selling sedan E90s), so all the 4 door freaks like us will have to migrate up another level if they want a new sedan. The car mags are going to go crazy over this thing. The 7 speed DCT is fixed, the looks department is fixed, and the S63TU is a wonderful engine which should be pretty mod-happy . The question, is whether the numbed-down feeling the F10 brings to the table is going to translate into a numbed-down M5. I really don't think that's going to happen just because of the ramifications it would imply against already weak performance numbers, which imo isn't entirely BMW's fault, it's my opinion that this style of car is approaching it's peak performance envelope that's possible out of a 2 ton sedan with tires smaller than 300s, the E63 with the new 5.5 and now the F10 M5 with all it's gadgets have managed such small performance advantages over the V2 and panamera-- now multi-year old cars that it's almost a case of'why bother?


I would love the M5 in theory, but the fact the entire time you're in the car the engine note you hear is a pre-recorded playback of the car on a dyno (which to me is just lame as shit) just kills the whole thing for me. BMW calls it Active Audio Design or something along those lines. Tech like that shouldn't be in an M car, you should be able to hear the real damn engine!
I had heard of this before, definitally not a fan, I'd rather have bufferfly exhaust valves, however I would be *very* surprised if there wasen't a way to turn this off. For people that want it, it'll be there I suppose.

shchow
01-14-12, 11:42 AM
I am considering the F10 M5 when my current lease ends in the Caddy.
But it is going to depend on where it is priced at.
I believe it will probably start around 90k and end up over 100k with options...
If the Caddy tunes the CTS-V up with a little more horsepower and upgrade to an automated manual with HUD, will probably get another Caddy.

hulksdaddy
01-14-12, 12:50 PM
V looks unique. M5 looks like almost every other BMW.

No for me.

deckofficer
01-14-12, 12:55 PM
Not an M5 for me, however the new Tesla Model S might get to be a stablemate for the V. Even with the optional 300+ mile battery pack, will be a tad cheaper than the V.

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/01-tesla-model-s-beta-fd.jpg

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/_MG_0005.jpg

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/30-tesla-model-s-beta-fd.jpg

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/_MG_0272.jpg



7 passenger
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/_MG_0231.jpg

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/_MG_0216-1.jpg

Can you say "very low center of gravity?"
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff452/deckofficer/Tesla%20Model%20S/_MG_0204_wSkinTonesinSmallSize.jpg

M5eater
01-14-12, 01:23 PM
V looks unique. M5 looks like almost every other BMW.

No for me.

here's food for thought; M5 gets quad tips, different front rear fascias, blue calipers, fender vents, new rims, drilled rotors and different hood. You're technically getting more 'look at me' items than the V2. It's just that the V2 has more of a departure in how these items are styled from the plain CTS. Regardless, no one except car nuts will recognize the different between either and their cheaper counterparts. If there's a super sedan and suffers from looking like every other car it's the E63. You get almost nothing exterior wise. The panamera is similar.

thebigjimsho
01-14-12, 11:58 PM
If money no object? Sure, I'd get an M5. But, unfortunately, money is an object. And one I don't have much of these days. So, no...

M5eater
01-15-12, 07:56 AM
If money no object? Sure, I'd get an M5. But, unfortunately, money is an object. And one I don't have much of these days. So, no...

That pretty much summs up my reasoning.. lol.


intersting spread going on, 30% is more than I was expecting.


Not an M5 for me, however the new Tesla Model S might get to be a stablemate for the V. Even with the optional 300+ mile battery pack, will be a tad cheaper than the V.

That thing is fantastic looking, but, I don't think I can put myself into an EV just yet, range and recharge time are, as always, my problems with it.

marktanner
01-15-12, 02:46 PM
I had a '93 M5, and I used to be a diehard BMW fan. In recent years, though, they have lost their way in terms of building driver's cars, IMO. The new M5 certainly looks impressive on paper, except for it's weight, which is even more than what our V's weigh. That's progress? I've read most of the European reviews, and they are not completely positive. What's been wrong? Lack of steering feel, even with the hydraulic steering boost instead of electric like the rest of the 5's. The suspension is very capable, but some reviewers have noted that none of the suspension settings really feels right. The brakes are not always fade free, either ( a classic BMW shortcoming). Then it has the questionable ergonomics due to i-Drive (even if it is improved), their ridiculous turn-signal actuator, and their automatic transmission selector, amongst other things. The DSG is not always perfect, and no one has driven a stick yet to see if they screwed it up like the previous edition.

As far as mileage, I am sure it will be better than the previous version, but that's not hard to do, as many of my friends routinely reported 11 mpg! If it's better than the V, that's great. I'm sure our mileage could be improved with some of the same tech that BMW uses, and I bet that it will happen in future editions of V products. We'll see how the M5 does in the real world, though.

I think my biggest peeve is that BMW has added so much "tech" and so many gadgets, and in doing so is making it less of a true driver's car. Now, it's more of an autobahn cruiser than a track weapon. BMW's have been migrating in this direction for years, more like Mercedes than old BMW's. The only BMW that interests me right now is the 135M, and they screwed that up by not making enough! That car was designed for feel instead of numbers an lap-times, and everyone seems to love driving it. My old M5 had that same feel, and it made a great track tool too. The new M5, not so much I bet. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've read, I don't think so. Plus, it's going to be $100K with options, and M car resale value hasn't been great of late, so it's going to be expensive to by, and they are going to cost a fortune to run. Back in '93, there wasn't much competition for a super sedan, but today, we have a lot of choices, and the V, at $63-70K, still rocks and is much cheaper. It seems like Cadillac is becoming the new BMW!

JimmyH
01-15-12, 04:21 PM
I am no fan of bmw, but I can't blame them for making the M5 less a driver's car and more of a cruiser. How many folks spending $100k on a supersedan are going to take it to a track? BMW is catering to the majority.

M5eater
01-15-12, 06:48 PM
I am no fan of bmw, but I can't blame them for making the M5 less a driver's car and more of a cruiser. How many folks spending $100k on a supersedan are going to take it to a track? BMW is catering to the majority.
This joker didn't get the message apparently

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/blmlozz/DSC_0196Large.jpg
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I had a '93 M5, and I used to be a diehard BMW fan. In recent years, though, they have lost their way in terms of building driver's cars, IMO. The new M5 certainly looks impressive on paper, except for it's weight, which is even more than what our V's weigh. That's progress? I've read most of the European reviews, and they are not completely positive. What's been wrong? Lack of steering feel, even with the hydraulic steering boost instead of electric like the rest of the 5's. The suspension is very capable, but some reviewers have noted that none of the suspension settings really feels right. The brakes are not always fade free, either ( a classic BMW shortcoming). Then it has the questionable ergonomics due to i-Drive (even if it is improved), their ridiculous turn-signal actuator, and their automatic transmission selector, amongst other things. The DSG is not always perfect, and no one has driven a stick yet to see if they screwed it up like the previous edition.

As far as mileage, I am sure it will be better than the previous version, but that's not hard to do, as many of my friends routinely reported 11 mpg! If it's better than the V, that's great. I'm sure our mileage could be improved with some of the same tech that BMW uses, and I bet that it will happen in future editions of V products. We'll see how the M5 does in the real world, though.

I think my biggest peeve is that BMW has added so much "tech" and so many gadgets, and in doing so is making it less of a true driver's car. Now, it's more of an autobahn cruiser than a track weapon. BMW's have been migrating in this direction for years, more like Mercedes than old BMW's. The only BMW that interests me right now is the 135M, and they screwed that up by not making enough! That car was designed for feel instead of numbers an lap-times, and everyone seems to love driving it. My old M5 had that same feel, and it made a great track tool too. The new M5, not so much I bet. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've read, I don't think so. Plus, it's going to be $100K with options, and M car resale value hasn't been great of late, so it's going to be expensive to by, and they are going to cost a fortune to run. Back in '93, there wasn't much competition for a super sedan, but today, we have a lot of choices, and the V, at $63-70K, still rocks and is much cheaper. It seems like Cadillac is becoming the new BMW!

I think you have a good idea of why this car is already projected to be a letdown. They fixed a lot of issues over the E60, but managed to create more problems along the way. There's a weird transision going on in the automotive world. BMW's trying to attract Mercedes customers, and mercedes is trying to attract BMW customers, Honda's trying to be more like Toyota, and vise versa. VW is trying to be more like the japanese and cheapen the passat and Jetta. So far all of this have turned bad cars and I've seen nothing positive from it.

SpartanCTSV
01-15-12, 06:52 PM
I just bought a 2012 V and couldn't be happier. By the time I'm in the market for another, I gotta think that GM will just re-up the ante. The next version of the V will once again trump the M5 and the AMG. It's a constant game of who gonna 1 up the other when the next model is released.

JFJr
01-15-12, 07:27 PM
Interesting that Cadillac (through the V2) is now offering what BMW has been noted for (the ultimate driver's car). Competition is good for everyone, but I still get a thrill listening to the real engine bark when starting my car. The V2 is very stable and confidence-inspiring for a high performance vehicle. Thank you GM performance engineers.

Jud

GMX322V S/C
01-16-12, 10:34 AM
Lamentably, they're trying real hard to be "just like Mercedes" and to "beat" Mercedes now (thanks to clueless executive board members with no automotive background), so why not just buy an AMG E-class and go directly to the source. The E60 is the last "real" BMW as far as I'm concerned.

commander112
01-16-12, 12:45 PM
I sat in the new M5 at the Detroit Auto Show preview the other night and by all appearances it will be an awesome machine. I just cannot get past the interior on the BMW though. I have always felt that while they use better quality materials and switches than the V it just does not come off with the same high quality look and feel as the Benz. For that matter, the interior felt better in the Hyundia sedan (which was a hell of a value by the way). The leather and contrasting colors are both stylish and high quality though in the M5.

hulksdaddy
01-16-12, 01:47 PM
I think you have a good idea of why this car is already projected to be a letdown. They fixed a lot of issues over the E60, but managed to create more problems along the way. There's a weird transision going on in the automotive world. BMW's trying to attract Mercedes customers, and mercedes is trying to attract BMW customers, Honda's trying to be more like Toyota, and vise versa. VW is trying to be more like the japanese and cheapen the passat and Jetta. So far all of this have turned bad cars and I've seen nothing positive from it.

Kia Optima. My mom is looking at one, so I went with her. At top level, you get everything we get in our Vs, plus a few others. All for $30k. 274 hp DI 4 is peppy, and the car looks great.

The Koreans are coming...

GM-4-LIFE
01-16-12, 03:45 PM
Why would I want a $100K car that has engine audio simulation through the speakers? What a scam! If I buy a car like that, I would want to hear real engine noise.

I don't think BMW has beat the 4 model year old CTS-V. Not in anyway. I hate BMW interiors! Ugliest interiors on the market. Hyundai and Kia interiors are way nicer than the expensive BMWs.

M5eater
01-16-12, 04:02 PM
Kia Optima. My mom is looking at one, so I went with her. At top level, you get everything we get in our Vs, plus a few others. All for $30k. 274 hp DI 4 is peppy, and the car looks great.

The Koreans are coming...
Kia Hyundai and Cadillac are not trying to imitate another car company, they're changing their company's profile, there's a subtle difference there, and if you notice, that kind of product direction works.

GM-4-LIFE
01-16-12, 04:18 PM
Kia Optima. My mom is looking at one, so I went with her. At top level, you get everything we get in our Vs, plus a few others. All for $30k. 274 hp DI 4 is peppy, and the car looks great.

The Koreans are coming...

The Koreans haven't been coming, they are here and have been here for a couple years already. As of the end of 2010, they were the number 4 global automaker in terms of volume sales. They are making really nice cars, but I can NEVER EVER say that I drive a Hyundai, no matter how nice the Genesis and Equus are. Just can't bring myself to it. Hyundai used to make the worst cars in terms of quality for the first 20 years they were here when they first started importing cars here in 1987. Now they are making great strides and offering a great warranty to boot. The problem is the public perception of the type of buyers that Hyundai has always attracted. It just doesn't go with the upper class white collar type people. Hyundai is attracting people that can't afford a high end luxury car, but want the same features. That's the bottom line. Someone that is looking at Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Cadillac and the likes are not going to cross shop Hyundai. I know I wouldn't and I know I am not alone.

Back on topic, though, Cadillac is gunning for BMW big time and in a few years, they may succeed, by stealing away BMW buyers with good solid products. That's the bottom line. Build more cars like the V2 and Cadillac will be back on top. With the new ATS and XTS and upcoming S-Class competitor, they are doing everything they can to get the world's attention, but it takes time to change your reputation and image. Cadillac has a lot of hard work to do to get to where BMW is, but in time, they can do it. Hyundai has done it, so Cadillac can as they are associated more with prestige, high class and luxury. Hyundai has always been associated with cheap garbage in the past.

8's on a drag radial
01-16-12, 04:25 PM
The fact that they don't offer a manual trans is a deal breaker for me.

If Cadillac eliminated the manual option from the CTS-V I would be out as well.

There is something about a manaul trans that makes a car fun.

GM-4-LIFE
01-16-12, 04:31 PM
The fact that they don't offer a manual trans is a deal breaker for me.

If Cadillac eliminated the manual option from the CTS-V I would be out as well.

There is something about a manaul trans that makes a car fun.

I agree 100%! I love manual transmissions, until I hit traffic and then I am annoyed having to upshift and downshift at 5-10 MPH.

I had a 2006 CTS-V that ONLY came in a manual trans and I kept it for a year. That's as long as I could deal with the dense L.A. traffic.

M5eater
01-16-12, 04:50 PM
The fact that they don't offer a manual trans is a deal breaker for me.

If Cadillac eliminated the manual option from the CTS-V I would be out as well.

There is something about a manaul trans that makes a car fun.

there will be a manual trans F10 M5 for the US market only. The hope is that they don't screw it up like the rush-job the E60 had. The ratios were bad, it overheated and the clutches didn't last long.


The Koreans haven't been coming, they are here and have been here for a couple years already. As of the end of 2010, they were the number 4 global automaker in terms of volume sales. They are making really nice cars, but I can NEVER EVER say that I drive a Hyundai, no matter how nice the Genesis and Equus are. Just can't bring myself to it
Cadillac, Buick, GM in general, Ford and Chrylser made shit cars too.. everyone deserves second chances.

GM-4-LIFE
01-16-12, 07:38 PM
No foreign cars for me, brother. I would rather have my money go back into the economy of the country where I live. The good old U.S. of A! The foreign automakers can go suck it!

M5eater
01-16-12, 07:56 PM
No foreign cars for me, brother. I would rather have my money go back into the economy of the country where I live. The good old U.S. of A! The foreign automakers can go suck it!
lets see here.
X3- all built in the USA
Optima's--all built in the USA
Tacoma's-- All built in the USA

GM powertrain division where even the LSA was made;
Mexico
Former ford Panther plant home of probally one of the most iconic cars and the last of an era of body on frame designs- Canada
.

seeing a trend here?

GM-4-LIFE
01-16-12, 08:15 PM
I guess you can say that I want my money to go to the parent company who is GM and that money mainly stays here in the U.S. My car was assembled here in the U.S. and my money won't go to Japan or Germany where the foreign automakers' operations are located. That was my point. I would like my money to be kept here and not sent off to foreign countries where I have no interests.

hulksdaddy
01-16-12, 08:24 PM
I've owned 2 foreign makes in my life: a 1977 Toyota Celica, and my current 2007 Honda Ridgeline. For the most part, "Buy American" was my creed.

But now, best car that I desire gets my money, regardless of make.

JimmyH
01-16-12, 11:19 PM
No foreign cars for me, brother. I would rather have my money go back into the economy of the country where I live. The good old U.S. of A! The foreign automakers can go suck it!

hell to the yeah!!



lets see here.
X3- all assembled from foreign parts in the USA
Optima's--all assembled from foreign parts in the USA
Tacoma's-- All assembled from foreign parts in the USA


fixed

GM-4-LIFE
01-17-12, 01:55 AM
Thanks Jimmy!

8's on a drag radial
01-17-12, 10:42 AM
I agree 100%! I love manual transmissions, until I hit traffic and then I am annoyed having to upshift and downshift at 5-10 MPH.

I had a 2006 CTS-V that ONLY came in a manual trans and I kept it for a year. That's as long as I could deal with the dense L.A. traffic.

You don't love manuals like I do.

I must be a rare duck....I have an 05 CTS-V that has 162,000 miles on it. I communte to work in metro detroit 70 miles one way in stop and go traffic......just when I get annoyed with the clutch...I get out of the city and go through the gears and realize why I love this car so much.

Finding a sedan with a manual is becoming very difficult....especially an american sedan.....but its a deal breaker for me....If I wanted an automatic then I might as well just buy a Fusion Sport or Malibu....but I want a sports car with the amenties of a sedan.

ecorpuz12
01-17-12, 07:59 PM
yes, i'm considering an M5 or maybe a 550i M sport....and here are the following reasons:

1: My V2 is on permanent #flyingdutchman since i hit 30k miles. I didn't know a $70k car could squeak, creak, groan, and rattle so much. From the driver's side visor, to the sunroof, to the shocks going over speed bumps...I know that kind of stuff doesn't bother most ppl that much but it's absolutely my worst pet peeve when it comes to cars. My wife's 3 series is 6 yrs old with 87k miles and it still solid as a rock with none of that nonsense, and she drives on the worst road in town twice a day to get to work. I've had 3 previous GM cars and they all seemed to develop pirate ship syndrome around the same time. Horrid. How's that saying go..."Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me?"

2: Performance: is .2 seconds faster to 60 worth an extra 30k? Maybe, maybe not...but it's always nice to have bragging rights. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-bmw-m5-road-test-review

3: Dealership experience: My local BMW service is just as good as the Caddy I use. However, at the BMW I get quality loaner cars and free snacks. My last 4 loaner cars at BMW were a 2011 335i sedan (sport, tech, prem pkgs), 2011 528i (tech, prem pkgs), 2011 335i vert coupe (tech, prem, cold wx pkgs), and for the last 2 days I had a 2012 535i (sport, tech, prem pkgs) sticker price of $61,945! By contrast the last 4 loaners I got from the Caddy were 2008 Kia Spectra from the used car lot, 2010 Acadia base, 2011 Buick Lacrosse base, and then a 2011 GMC Terrain base. And no snacks.

4. Build quality (see #1). Also gaps and misaligned pieces in the V's interior and exterior trim pieces.


My timeframe isn't until 2013-2014 so that gives me time to check out what the V3 will look like, but given my previous experience with GM cars going rattlemania on me...the outlook is doubtful. I may even look at the new M3 when that comes out sometime in 2014. Euro delivery also looks like a lot of fun and with the opportunity of taking some laps around the Green Hell after a proper break in, it's looking more and more enticing.

I will say this though...it seems the majority of the ppl on the Bimmer forums are complete azzholes compared to the folks here. Even though I don't post that much, I thoroughly enjoy reading the threads on our forums.

M5eater
01-17-12, 09:15 PM
I'm with you on your pet peeves Ecorpuz, and the forum quality difference. CF is much more grownup than the trolls on M5board or any german forum for that matter.. I'm less critical of a lot of the things I used to be since owning a V2 comming from the german scene, maybe that's a clue that the car's other qualities have me won over. I suppose I won't know until I find out though, and there is that price difference. It's simply inescapable that you could buy fuel for life and have mod-money left over for the difference between the two.

SpartanCTSV
01-17-12, 11:12 PM
Lamentably, they're trying real hard to be "just like Mercedes" and to "beat" Mercedes now (thanks to clueless executive board members with no automotive background), so why not just buy an AMG E-class and go directly to the source. The E60 is the last "real" BMW as far as I'm concerned.

Well, I did thorough research, including test drives of all 3, and the Cadillac wins hands down!!!! Mercedes is not really in the competition, and BMW lost by a bigger differential.

Mystical_Ice
01-18-12, 01:31 AM
Past 100-110 I'm sure it would murder a V2. The E60 did that past 120. As you mention though, you not only could easily build a 6-700whp V2, but you could buy the car *and* build it for under the M5's MSRP. I think that my be the reason I keep the V2. The aftermarket is limitless so you're not stuck paying dinan $40K for 700hp.

I agree with you to an extent, but with that mentality, you could buy a $15,000 civic, put $30,000 into it, and have a car that murders a bugatti veyron... it's not just about the cost per HP. I bet most of us that can afford a $68,500 V can also afford another $25,000 for a M5.

thebigjimsho
01-18-12, 08:07 AM
Nope.

M5eater
01-18-12, 08:59 AM
Nope.
Why?

JimmyH
01-18-12, 03:23 PM
I can't even afford a V.

Umrswimr
01-18-12, 04:37 PM
If money no object? Sure, I'd get an M5. But, unfortunately, money is an object. And one I don't have much of these days. So, no...

Precisely.

Rule12b
01-18-12, 07:43 PM
Even if money is no object, I'd sooner get an X5 M or a CLS63 (the new ones I'm seeing around are beautiful) than the M5. Having said all that, I'm keeping the V over all of them, since money is a factor. :-)

concorso
01-18-12, 08:32 PM
I guess you can say that I want my money to go to the parent company who is GM and that money mainly stays here in the U.S. My car was assembled here in the U.S. and my money won't go to Japan or Germany where the foreign automakers' operations are located. That was my point. I would like my money to be kept here and not sent off to foreign countries where I have no interests.At least some of your money is going to foreign companies. Recaro and Brembo didnt give their gear to Cadillac for free. If you buy a foreign car assembled in the US, you are still supporting the US anyhow, by employing American workers.

Unclemelty
01-18-12, 08:53 PM
At least some of your money is going to foreign companies. Recaro and Brembo didnt give their gear to Cadillac for free. If you buy a foreign car assembled in the US, you are still supporting the US anyhow, by employing American workers.

Just a side note Recaro automotive seating is made in the USA and is actually owned by Johnson Control...at least since the middle of last year. I would imagine that Recaro is simply paid a licensing fee by JC for the naming rights...

M5eater
01-18-12, 09:18 PM
Just a side note Recaro automotive seating is made in the USA and is actually owned by Johnson Control...at least since the middle of last year. I would imagine that Recaro is simply paid a licensing fee by JC for the naming rights...
also a fun fact;
your supercharger lid says Bosch of Germany on it.

GMX322V S/C
01-19-12, 04:26 AM
The IP and center stack are Deutsch as well. Japanese and German paint...Japanese radio/nav...French tires...and so on.

concorso
01-19-12, 01:40 PM
Just a side note Recaro automotive seating is made in the USA and is actually owned by Johnson Control...at least since the middle of last year. I would imagine that Recaro is simply paid a licensing fee by JC for the naming rights...I wasnt familiar with that, thanks! That still means that 09 and 10, possibly 11's came with Italian Recaro seats. Look at the Magnaride suspension...GM/Cadillac released a V commercial showing how Ferrari was using the same technology that came in a V. That technology is now owned by a Beijing company, has been for 3 or 4 years.

GM-4-LIFE
01-19-12, 06:51 PM
Brembo's will soon be built in the U.S. and their first production run and subsequent runs will be installed on the Cadillac XTS apparently. You guys hear about that? This is recent news.

M5eater
01-21-12, 06:14 PM
I agree with you to an extent, but with that mentality, you could buy a $15,000 civic, put $30,000 into it, and have a car that murders a bugatti veyron... it's not just about the cost per HP. I bet most of us that can afford a $68,500 V can also afford another $25,000 for a M5.
There is certinally much more going on between the two cars than cost per HP goes, however, the two are on basicly opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard, so imo, as an enthusiast and hot-rodder it plays a much larger role. the S63TU is wonderful, but you're talking about comparing a 1-off engine to the most prolificly mass-produced V8 design in the world. There's something to be said there about that, and if you get tired of an LSA? Just swap in a 427 if you'd like. Try doing that with an E60 or F10 and get back with me on how that goes.

WhoseCadillacIsThat
01-22-12, 03:15 AM
I wasnt familiar with that, thanks! That still means that 09 and 10, possibly 11's came with Italian Recaro seats. Look at the Magnaride suspension...GM/Cadillac released a V commercial showing how Ferrari was using the same technology that came in a V. That technology is now owned by a Beijing company, has been for 3 or 4 years.

Take a very quite look around.....Beijing 'companies' practically own the entire US. What they don't own they take and manufacture anyhow. Swallow hard GM auto owners....look at the manufacturers logo tags under the dash - we in the US don't make too much anymore. It's becoming very tough to have brand or manufacturer loyalty and make the purchase of a great vehicle such as our 'V's. Money talks and China has lots of it - GM will become a Chinese company too.

M5eater
01-22-12, 10:22 AM
Take a very quite look around.....Beijing 'companies' practically own the entire US. What they don't own they take and manufacture anyhow. Swallow hard GM auto owners....look at the manufacturers logo tags under the dash - we in the US don't make too much anymore. It's becoming very tough to have brand or manufacturer loyalty and make the purchase of a great vehicle such as our 'V's. Money talks and China has lots of it - GM will become a Chinese company too.

Its the only reason Buick is alive after all..

WhoseCadillacIsThat
01-22-12, 10:26 AM
Its the only reason Buick is alive after all..

I'm neither preaching nor just making casual conversation - this situation is very alarming to me and basically makes me mad as hell - so I try not to dwell on it for too long.....

thebigjimsho
01-22-12, 09:00 PM
Why?

Because I can't, that's why...

MrMaschine
01-23-12, 10:31 AM
As much as I am a BMW M Fan a few reasons why I would not really consider it.

1. BMW has packed way to much electronic crap into their M cars which detracts from the real driving experience. electric steering, brakes, shocks, sway bars diff you name it. Anything outside of this driving experience will feel awkward. I enjoyed my 2008 M5 alot but after moving on I realized even that car had a very artificial feel to its driving.

2. I am certain for the money its going to be over the top expensive, my 2008 was $105k MSRP, i see the new one being even greater fully loaded around $110k or more, look at the CLS63 AMG

In regards to a lease it will be $2,000 month hands down or more with a huge chunk down like 8-10k. Not many of us enthusiastic drivers will be willing to fork over that change.

Screw that, the V looks better and it the best value hands down. You can buy 3 used V for the price of the new M5 I bet.

M5eater
01-23-12, 10:34 AM
As much as I am a BMW M Fan a few reasons why I would not really consider it.

1. BMW has packed way to much electronic crap into their M cars which detracts from the real driving experience. electric steering, brakes, shocks, sway bars diff you name it. Anything outside of this driving experience will feel awkward. I enjoyed my 2008 M5 alot but after moving on I realized even that car had a very artificial feel to its driving.

2. I am certain for the money its going to be over the top expensive, my 2008 was $105k MSRP, i see the new one being even greater fully loaded around $110k or more, look at the CLS63 AMG

In regards to a lease it will be $2,000 month hands down or more with a huge chunk down like 8-10k. Not many of us enthusiastic drivers will be willing to fork over that change.

Screw that, the V looks better and it the best value hands down. You can buy 3 used V for the price of the new M5 I bet.

All good points, and it's interesting to note that it would appear Cadillac is trying to take off from where the E39 and E46's left off. Simplistc no- nanny driver's cars.

GM-4-LIFE
01-23-12, 02:59 PM
I still can't believe that BMW pumps fake engine sounds through the factory speakers so you can hear the engine. Why not just make the engine a bit more audible?

JFJr
01-23-12, 03:30 PM
I still can't believe that BMW pumps fake engine sounds through the factory speakers so you can hear the engine. Why not just make the engine a bit more audible?Yeah, what's up with that? The "V" always sounds like a high performance car. I liked the sound of the LS6 in my 2005 best.

Jud

M5eater
01-23-12, 03:35 PM
Maybe-- and I'm going out on a limb here-- you can turn the volume up a will? Or turn it off completly.. sort of a half-ass to some butterfly valves IMO.. but that's the only reasoning I can think of.

JimmyH
01-23-12, 05:11 PM
Even Lexus was able to tune a nice exhaust note out of the pipes of the IS-F.

trukk
01-24-12, 12:46 PM
You don't love manuals like I do.

I must be a rare duck....I have an 05 CTS-V that has 162,000 miles on it. I communte to work in metro detroit 70 miles one way in stop and go traffic......just when I get annoyed with the clutch...I get out of the city and go through the gears and realize why I love this car so much.

Finding a sedan with a manual is becoming very difficult....especially an american sedan.....but its a deal breaker for me....If I wanted an automatic then I might as well just buy a Fusion Sport or Malibu....but I want a sports car with the amenties of a sedan.

Same here. My '05 V has 145k miles on it. I just retired it from DD duty, and replaced with a manual V-Wagon. I drive 90 miles round trip into DC 4-5 times a week. I'd blow my brains out if I had to comute with a slushbox. Even in stop and go, I enjoy the manual


Back to the topic. My good friend had an E60 M5 manual. I drove it, and it was just a torqueless wonder. My moded '05 V had way more ball than it did, except when the E60 was under full boil at very high speed. Now the V2 has like 400 ft/lbs of torque off idle. It's just so much more fun to drive.


Laslty, unless you have oil-money or a trust fund, who is going to mod an F10? *ANYONE* can mod a V, thanks to the LSX heart.

No thanks to the F10.

-Chris

e6t
01-24-12, 04:33 PM
I am.

TTuned
01-24-12, 07:38 PM
No way for $100k wait till it comes down to the $40k range, pick it up private party from someone who bought it CPO.
Why?:No sales tax, and 6yr/100k of maint.
My 335i modded and incredible to drive, quicker than M3. wondering if the 5 would handle and feel like that just with double the power.

550i with Mtech kit and a dinan tune for 500hp will be $40k any day now on the used market.

M5eater
01-24-12, 08:26 PM
No way for $100k wait till it comes down to the $40k range, pick it up private party from someone who bought it CPO.
Why?:No sales tax, and 6yr/100k of maint.
My 335i modded and incredible to drive, quicker than M3. wondering if the 5 would handle and feel like that just with double the power.

550i with Mtech kit and a dinan tune for 500hp will be $40k any day now on the used market.
And that gentlemen is how you do it. Used off a lease, and get a nice fat warranty, I dont just have to pay sales tax in VA here, I have to pay personal property tax too.. that's a nice $3K I'd save every year in ownership costs.

concorso
01-25-12, 07:47 PM
Maybe-- and I'm going out on a limb here-- you can turn the volume up a will? Or turn it off completly.. sort of a half-ass to some butterfly valves IMO.. but that's the only reasoning I can think of.Has anyone explained how this works exactly? For some people who live in quiet neighbourhoods with noise by laws, you could still enjoy a loud exhaust note inside the car wihtout pissing off the HOA's... As long as you can turn it up/down/off/on, I dont see a problem with it outside of the expense to put it in the car. I know my kid loves a really loud exhuast, much louder then Im comfortable with. I actually have a CD of exhuast notes that I play for him, like the Lambo track from one of Jamiroquai's songs.

Ak Jim
01-26-12, 04:08 AM
You don't love manuals like I do.

I must be a rare duck....I have an 05 CTS-V that has 162,000 miles on it. I communte to work in metro detroit 70 miles one way in stop and go traffic......just when I get annoyed with the clutch...I get out of the city and go through the gears and realize why I love this car so much.

Finding a sedan with a manual is becoming very difficult....especially an american sedan.....but its a deal breaker for me....If I wanted an automatic then I might as well just buy a Fusion Sport or Malibu....but I want a sports car with the amenties of a sedan.

Try finding a truck with a manual, it's even more difficult.

js615
01-26-12, 02:41 PM
Dealership experience: My local BMW service is just as good as the Caddy I use. However, at the BMW I get quality loaner cars and free snacks. My last 4 loaner cars at BMW were a 2011 335i sedan (sport, tech, prem pkgs), 2011 528i (tech, prem pkgs), 2011 335i vert coupe (tech, prem, cold wx pkgs), and for the last 2 days I had a 2012 535i (sport, tech, prem pkgs) sticker price of $61,945! By contrast the last 4 loaners I got from the Caddy were 2008 Kia Spectra from the used car lot, 2010 Acadia base, 2011 Buick Lacrosse base, and then a 2011 GMC Terrain base. And no snacks.

I can't stress enough how much of a big deal this is for me when buying a car. Not so much the snacks and all, but the overall quality of the dealer and how I am treated when I am at the dealership. This is huge for GM if they ever really want to compete on a level field with the Germans. People who buy these types of cars want the entire experience. My dealership is really good, but not even they are BMW/Mercedes good. I've heard all the Caddy shops are getting complete makeovers - so let's hope the amenities and improved tact towards customers also come with a new coat of paint.

Bottom line for me (are you listening Cadillac customer service folks??) I will buy my car based not only on the car itself, but the dealership that maintains my car. I see the salesman once every 3 years when I get a new car, but I see my service rep and service manager numerous times a year for maintenance. Those guys make or break the customer experience. You can, and should, do at least as much as the Germans if you want to complete the Caddy transformation to world class.

blownS
01-27-12, 05:01 PM
Certinally 0-60 and ring times are identical.. so you're paying 40K for some gadets, better gas mileage, huge mantiance costs, and some exclusivity.

I think that says it all. If I'm paying an xtra $40K, I'm gonna need more than just some "gadgets and exclusivity." At least give me some performance advantage, Bavaria!

I'll be honest, I did briefly consider the new M5 before picking up my V2 this past weekend. But the substantial price differential (plus the 3-5 month wait period b4 it hits our shores), w/out much added value to show for it, put me off. And this is coming from a former E46 M3 owner.

M5eater
01-27-12, 07:57 PM
I think that says it all. If I'm paying an xtra $40K, I'm gonna need more than just some "gadgets and exclusivity." At least give me some performance advantage, Bavaria!

I'll be honest, I did briefly consider the new M5 before picking up my V2 this past weekend. But the substantial price differential (plus the 3-5 month wait period b4 it hits our shores), w/out much added value to show for it, put me off. And this is coming from a former E46 M3 owner.
I agree, that's why I'm only considering it. The problem is, it's certinally better than the last M5, but this time around it's not a game-changer with it's competition that's currently out like previous models have been. I just hope this isn't a sign of things to come.

MacOSR
01-27-12, 11:46 PM
I am. I may keep my E60 M5 as well. There's something about the V10 that I still love and just can't give up!

M5eater
01-28-12, 09:20 AM
I am. I may keep my E60 M5 as well. There's something about the V10 that I still love and just can't give up!
A corsa tuned LSA does sound heavily, but I will admit, once you can fork over more than $2K for some axle-backs, you're in for a treat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1_OKkZzp4

MacOSR
01-28-12, 06:05 PM
A corsa tuned LSA does sound heavily, but I will admit, once you can fork over more than $2K for some axle-backs, you're in for a treat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1_OKkZzp4

It's hard to explain...just like a great V8 has an awesome sound the V10 of the M5 does to. Not better...just different, especially at over 7000 rpm.

M5eater
01-28-12, 07:17 PM
It's hard to explain...just like a great V8 has an awesome sound the V10 of the M5 does to. Not better...just different, especially at over 7000 rpm.

oh no, don't get me wrong, not better certainly, but just as good absolutely.

M5eater
02-08-12, 10:27 AM
So, the F10 will indeed be receiving a manual when it's introduced, and it's not a half-asses rushed manual, it's a proper, fully-functioning and tested model, with the same diff, and electronic nannies.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-confirms-stick-option-for-u-s-m5-victory%E2%80%94and-a-manual-gearbox%E2%80%94is-ours/

I wonder if it will remain a 50% spec'd option, The new DCT in the F10 is vastly improved over the E60, so at this point, it's almost a nostalgic or driver's feeling choice except for maybe around town. Although plainly, DCT's are still major pain's to maintain and keep going in the long run compared to a manual.

JimmyH
02-08-12, 03:21 PM
The well documented problems with the GTI and the GT-R are enough to give me pause.

M5eater
02-08-12, 03:45 PM
The well documented problems with the GTI and the GT-R are enough to give me pause.
you don't have to even go that far. The documented cases of E60 owners who have to shell out $6-15k for SMG repairs are enough. I'm not sure which DCT the F10 has, but I'm sure it's 'unique' to the F10 M5. Unique, BMW, M and 4300lb sedan are a bad combination for ownership out of warranty.

JimmyH
02-08-12, 04:14 PM
My personal opinion is that direct shift transmissions are so hideously expensive, that they are manufactured very marginally. They are designed to barely handle the power that the engine makes. Beat on them a little, race them, or add any power, and you are asking for trouble.

M5eater
02-08-12, 04:28 PM
My personal opinion is that direct shift transmissions are so hideously expensive, that they are manufactured very marginally. They are designed to barely handle the power that the engine makes. Beat on them a little, race them, or add any power, and you are asking for trouble.

Honestly, the Manual in the E60 wasn't exactly trouble free. It overheated, the ratios were crap, you can still burn up clutches easily and you couldn't turn off the traction control early on. Basically it was a unit lifted from the E39. It was a rushed mess. This time it looks like they're putting more than 2 seconds thought into it though.

tbss08
02-09-12, 07:47 PM
I'll look at the M5 when it hit's the shore. I've got my name at the top of the list at my dealer.
As far as manual or MDCT, I'll take the MDCT. I love the way the car shifts both in auto mode and manual. I couldn't shift as fast as this does in the M3. The trans shifts 1000 times better than the slush box in the V.
On the customer service side, BMW wins hands down. It is nice to be treated like a customer who they car about instead of a number getting work done on some car. My BMW dealership has been the best dealer experience I've ever had. GM might build a fast car but the with the past four GM cars I've had they don't build them right and didn't give a crap about it.

stabie
02-09-12, 08:50 PM
I hear complaints about caddy dealerships like yours and am bewildered. I've had no real service yet on my V, but when I would bring my previous 08CTS in, they practically fell over themselves with service. They had a greeter always who found the advisor, offered me coffee, water etc as soon as I opened the car door. If the service time was unknown, they would immediately offer up a loaner car. Usually I would wait, and every 20 minutes or so they would update me and again ask if I wanted a loaner. They had coffee(starbucks), juice, fruit, donuts, & popcorn in the afternoon available. Wifi too of course, and not a crappy slow connection either. The one time my CTS had a couple of days in service, they called at least once/day with updates. I agree this sort of service is partly why I returned for the V, and bought it from them. I know the general consensus is service and sales are separate organizations, but I wonder. I got a decent discount on my V, but not as good as some I've seen on this board. I am curious if there is a correlation between poor service dealerships and big discounts. Given a choice between a great discount with crappy service or no/low discount and great service, I'll take the great service!

V locity
02-09-12, 09:16 PM
It seems the the V2 is now the car everyone is shooting to compare to. That says enough...

BTW, I just showed a kitty eyed M5 my rear license plate a few times today... :)

M5eater
02-09-12, 09:24 PM
I hear complaints about caddy dealerships like yours and am bewildered. I've had no real service yet on my V, but when I would bring my previous 08CTS in, they practically fell over themselves with service. They had a greeter always who found the advisor, offered me coffee, water etc as soon as I opened the car door. If the service time was unknown, they would immediately offer up a loaner car. Usually I would wait, and every 20 minutes or so they would update me and again ask if I wanted a loaner. They had coffee(starbucks), juice, fruit, donuts, & popcorn in the afternoon available. Wifi too of course, and not a crappy slow connection either. The one time my CTS had a couple of days in service, they called at least once/day with updates. I agree this sort of service is partly why I returned for the V, and bought it from them. I know the general consensus is service and sales are separate organizations, but I wonder. I got a decent discount on my V, but not as good as some I've seen on this board. I am curious if there is a correlation between poor service dealerships and big discounts. Given a choice between a great discount with crappy service or no/low discount and great service, I'll take the great service!

Dealerships are like people, there's a million of them, some are *******s, some are saints, and it doesn't matter if they're wearing george by walmart or an armani suit, they can go both ways.

JimmyH
02-10-12, 02:13 PM
I tried 4 caddy dealers here in Chicagoland. Two of them were ok. One of them was awful. One of them was world-class.