: The New ATS says suck it Germany!



ajjones44
01-08-12, 04:19 PM
http://jalopnik.com/5874063/2013-cadillac-ats-suck-it-germany

"...Unlike past attempts in the class, on paper, the ATS looks like it can compete. Rear wheel drive? Check. It's supposedly got a nearly 50/50 weight balance. Check. It has Cadillac's first five-link independent rear suspension. Check. Multi-link double-pivot MacPherson strut front suspension with direct-acting stabilizer bar, Corvette ZR1-derived driver-adjustable FE3 sport suspension with Magnetic Ride Control real-time damping, four-channel ABS with optional Brembo brakes and available all-wheel drive? Check, check, and check.

Power? It'll compete there too with three powertrain options for the U.S. two four-cylinder engines and a V6. A base 2.5-liter inline-four engine that nobody should buy and two optional engine options an all-new 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder rated at 270 horsepower and the 3.6-liter V6 that GM currently estimates will throw down an 335i-beating 318 horsepower.

Fuel economy? The peak fuel economy of one of the engine options will hit more than 30 MPG. But nevermind that. You're buying a luxury car. Better stats to look at include things like the number 135 the number of horses produced for each of that turbocharged four-banger's liters. That's some serious Euro-beating power density for motivating a car that weighs "just" 3,400 lbs.
That's right, the curb weight is under 3,400 lbs, which means it's lighter than the BMW 335i. Yeah, you heard me right GM built a car that's lighter than the competition. That alone just blew my mind...." From Jalopnik

elphil
01-08-12, 04:48 PM
Thanks for sharing. We want a V version. Twin turbo V6 and 7or 8 speed twin clutch tyranny.

My dealer called today to see if I am ready to order a 2012. After all its been a year since I got my Wagon. I told him to call me when the ATS comes in. He said it will eventually be offered as a sedan, coupe and convertible.

mberisha
01-08-12, 04:52 PM
Are there rumors of a V version?

hulksdaddy
01-08-12, 04:58 PM
Little bland looking compared to the CTS. The V version would have to sport some different sheetmetal to tempt me.

M5eater
01-08-12, 05:13 PM
are these the first pictures of it?

looks pretty good!

also.


That's some serious Euro-beating power density for motivating a car that weighs "just" 3,400 lbs.
:shocked: They can suck it ineeded if this is true! That's a game changer there folks.

ajjones44
01-08-12, 05:15 PM
Are there rumors of a V version?

There was a build sheet for the V version floating around the net with a NA LS3. That makes sense with the ATS-V slotting under the CTS-V. I hope to see it on the road before the next M3 is released.

thebigjimsho
01-08-12, 06:38 PM
There was a build sheet for the V version floating around the net with a NA LS3. That makes sense with the ATS-V slotting under the CTS-V. I hope to see it on the road before the next M3 is released.

I'll believe 3400 lbs when I see it. But, if that's true, 3400-3500 lbs with 430+hp in an LS3 would be amazing...

Jon
01-08-12, 07:14 PM
Like the side, love the rear and interior, not liking the front.

Front looks too Mercedes. Especially that grille. Where's my big Caddy grille?

Unclemelty
01-08-12, 08:23 PM
ATS just mentioned on CBS Money Watch right after football game tonight...aside from this thread thats the first I had heard of it.

Razorecko
01-08-12, 08:29 PM
hmm...LS3 in a 3400lb format. Throw a turbo/blower kit on that and it would kick @ssss

hutch66
01-08-12, 08:40 PM
I say keep the ATS an ATS. Don't make it a V. Don't be like BMW, every model their is a M version. Or Merc. almost everything is a AMG version.

M5eater
01-08-12, 09:23 PM
I say keep the ATS an ATS. Don't make it a V. Don't be like BMW, every model their is a M version. Or Merc. almost everything is a AMG version.
I'm sure just like with the CTS, Cadillac went into this project with a V in mind. You don't set brand image with base models anyway. Nor do you sell some options that way.


I'm not digging the center exhaust ports, but they could grow on me if they were bigger, or were quads.


I'll believe 3400 lbs when I see it. But, if that's true, 3400-3500 lbs with 430+hp in an LS3 would be amazing...
I don't think it's far-fethced for a base BASE N/A manual.

neuronbob
01-08-12, 09:38 PM
I like it. It looks good. If there's an LS3 V version and it gets decent gas mileage, I would definitely look at it. My next car, whatever it is, will have better mileage than the CTS-V. The problem is, now that I've sampled all this performance, can I really go back to less power? I shudder at the thought.

concorso
01-08-12, 10:59 PM
I don't think it's far-fethced for a base BASE N/A manual.If thats the case, its not much lighter then the 1st gen CTS with V6 and manual, which was about 3500 lbs. ITll be close to 3800 with brembros, 19's, sunroof, V8 or TT V6, and auto, or right around the 1st gen CTS-V.

I like everything but the front. The thick outline of the grill looks horrible. Im not a fan of the the single tips being so far in, similar looking to the 335i. I much prefer the tips pushed to the edges. Other then those minor quibbles, I love it. Love the headlights, wheels look good. Like someone mentioned, tho, a little too sleek, not aggressive enough. Looking forward to the V version.

Patent Guy
01-09-12, 02:02 AM
Good to see GM has found another home for the Solstice/Sky turbo Ecotec engine. I presume they are using the Solstice platform, as there was a 4 door version of the K platform in the works if I remember correctly. The front suspension of the Solstice also seemed to have been designed to accomodate 4WD. If the car actually comes in at the 3400-3500 lb mark, I'd stay with the turbo 4. Not hard to get good power from that motor and many performance parts already available through GM and others. Hopefully, they will have done something to make the manual transmission less tractor-like in feel.

Maxniman
01-09-12, 09:00 AM
Little bland looking compared to the CTS. The V version would have to sport some different sheetmetal to tempt me.

I agree, just a bland four door old mans sedan. I have seen a few ATS V Coupe concepts that look great because they were much more aggressive looking

M5eater
01-09-12, 09:04 AM
and the IS, 3 series or C class are more interesting to look at? It's a fresh representation of art and science, there's brand recognition going on without completly copying the CTS. I like it. It's the best intpretation of the theme to date imo.

RippyPartsDept
01-09-12, 10:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXXAX9Xh28o

concorso
01-09-12, 11:07 AM
and the IS, 3 series or C class are more interesting to look at? It's a fresh representation of art and science, there's brand recognition going on without completly copying the CTS. I like it. It's the best intpretation of the theme to date imo.I need to see it in person before I say its the best example of A&S design language Ive seen. It is a good looking car, tho. Compare it to the 1st gen CTS. The 1st gen CTS (which I personally love) looks unfinished in comparison to this car.

I really hope they release a track package as soon as possible, and a Platinum package mid-cycle to add a few extra tech options once some of the competing brands have released new models. I have a feeling this will be the 1st Cadillac to make a serious claim to class leader. Could this car outsell the 3 series, at least in N.America? Im assuming Cadillac is expecting 70 or 80k sales a year? What does the 3 series sell in N.A?

M5eater
01-09-12, 11:25 AM
I don't see the Ats beating the 3 series in sales-- a 6 figure annual production number vehicle. if it manages 60-70k units I would consider it a Big success. BMW by itself outpaced Cadillac by nearly 100k units in 2011. if people go bananas over a softened 5 series to the tune of 51k units, a new 3 series might rival Cadillacs entire brand sales for 2012

GM-4-LIFE
01-09-12, 02:48 PM
If GM is smart, they will do a V version and really get some sales! I would sign up for an ATS-V Coupe if it had a LS3 or better yet an LSA. If they can throw in the LS3, why not the LSA and kick everyone's ass? Imagine a 556 HP, 3400 lb. or 3500 lb. car! That would be amazing! That car would easily be in the mid 3 second 0-60 range and maybe even in the mid 11s 1/4 mile wise.

M5eater
01-09-12, 03:03 PM
If GM is smart, they will do a V version and really get some sales! I would sign up for an ATS-V Coupe if it had a LS3 or better yet an LSA. If they can throw in the LS3, why not the LSA and kick everyone's ass? Imagine a 556 HP, 3400 lb. or 3500 lb. car! That would be amazing! That car would easily be in the mid 3 second 0-60 range and maybe even in the mid 11s 1/4 mile wise.

I wouldn't expect anything less than 4 seconds, or a hair below that. Traction becomes an issue eventually.

GM-4-LIFE
01-09-12, 03:27 PM
I wouldn't expect anything less than 4 seconds, or a hair below that. Traction becomes an issue eventually.

Why can't they just put launch control on the ATS V-Series?

RippyPartsDept
01-09-12, 03:33 PM
the V-series will come ... a year later ... per the usual timeline

concorso
01-09-12, 03:40 PM
I don't see the Ats beating the 3 series in sales-- a 6 figure annual production number vehicle. if it manages 60-70k units I would consider it a Big success. BMW by itself outpaced Cadillac by nearly 100k units in 2011. if people go bananas over a softened 5 series to the tune of 51k units, a new 3 series might rival Cadillacs entire brand sales for 2012If the ATS sells less the 60k units, its doing no better then the critically poo-poo'd 1st gen CTS. If the ATS doesnt outsell the 1st gen CTS, Id consider it a failure in that sense. Keep in mind, too,that BMW has how many different body styles? Cadillac has, what, 7? The 3 variations of the Escalade, the SRX, and the 3 variations of the CTS. BMW has the 1er in 2 styles, the 3 series in 4, the 5er in 2, the 6 in 2, the 7, the X1, X3, X6, X5, Z4... BMW has many more markets covered then Cadillac does. Big sedan? Small SUV? Small sports car? Convertible small car? Cadillac has nothing in any of these.

----------


If GM is smart, they will do a V version and really get some sales! I would sign up for an ATS-V Coupe if it had a LS3 or better yet an LSA. If they can throw in the LS3, why not the LSA and kick everyone's ass? Imagine a 556 HP, 3400 lb. or 3500 lb. car! That would be amazing! That car would easily be in the mid 3 second 0-60 range and maybe even in the mid 11s 1/4 mile wise.Id put money on it that if you put the LSA in the ATS, the car would over 4000 lbs when you include the extra engine weight, the bigger brakes youd need, the heavy duty rear end, etc. At that point, Id prefer the CTS longer and wider wheel base.

M5eater
01-09-12, 03:56 PM
If the ATS sells less the 60k units, its doing no better then the critically poo-poo'd 1st gen CTS. If the ATS doesnt outsell the 1st gen CTS, Id consider it a failure in that sense. Keep in mind, too,that BMW has how many different body styles? Cadillac has, what, 7? The 3 variations of the Escalade, the SRX, and the 3 variations of the CTS. BMW has the 1er in 2 styles, the 3 series in 4, the 5er in 2, the 6 in 2, the 7, the X1, X3, X6, X5, Z4... BMW has many more markets covered then Cadillac does. Big sedan? Small SUV? Small sports car? Convertible small car? Cadillac has nothing in any of these.
----------

Id put money on it that if you put the LSA in the ATS, the car would over 4000 lbs when you include the extra engine weight, the bigger brakes youd need, the heavy duty rear end, etc. At that point, Id prefer the CTS longer and wider wheel base.

The CTS has occupied a middle ground segment though(and it was the first departure from what Cadillac's normally had been), so it's hard to compare a real compact on an established theme to the 1st CTS. Assuming 2nd gen CTS sales don't drop off a cliff(which is entirely possible) another 60K units per year would put cadillac over 200K units a year and pretty close to being a top 3 competitor. It's really unrealistc to believe it's going to push anything close to the 3 series it's first itteration. 60-70K units considering the 2nd gen's sales haven't tipped 58K since 08 is a realistic goal. Figuring if ATS tops 80K units in a perfect world and CTS sales drop to 20-30. then you're talking about 40% overall growth. That's huge anyway you look at it.

GM-4-LIFE
01-09-12, 04:11 PM
Id put money on it that if you put the LSA in the ATS, the car would over 4000 lbs when you include the extra engine weight, the bigger brakes youd need, the heavy duty rear end, etc. At that point, Id prefer the CTS longer and wider wheel base.

I would want the smaller and more nimble ATS-V Coupe. I think my CTS-V Coupe is way too big size wise currently.

I want the ATS-V Coupe, but ONLY if it has a V8. No V6 RWD for me, EVER! By the time the ATS-V arrives, it won't have an LS3, but it will most likely have whatever base engine will be in the C7 Corvette. It will be cheaper for GM to build one engine for multiple platforms.

M5eater
01-09-12, 04:20 PM
I would want the smaller and more nimble ATS-V Coupe. I think my CTS-V Coupe is way too big size wise currently.

I want the ATS-V Coupe, but ONLY if it has a V8. No V6 RWD for me, EVER! By the time the ATS-V arrives, it won't have an LS3, but it will most likely have whatever base engine will be in the C7 Corvette. It will be cheaper for GM to build one engine for multiple platforms.

I wouldn't count on that, but I wouldn't count on an LS3 either, by 2013 it will be 5 years old, the LS2 didn't even survive 4 MY's before being replaced.

GM-4-LIFE
01-09-12, 04:26 PM
The CTS has occupied a middle ground segment though(and it was the first departure from what Cadillac's normally had been), so it's hard to compare a real compact on an established theme to the 1st CTS. Assuming 2nd gen CTS sales don't drop off a cliff(which is entirely possible) another 60K units per year would put cadillac over 200K units a year and pretty close to being a top 3 competitor. It's really unrealistc to believe it's going to push anything close to the 3 series it's first itteration. 60-70K units considering the 2nd gen's sales haven't tipped 58K since 08 is a realistic goal. Figuring if ATS tops 80K units in a perfect world and CTS sales drop to 20-30. then you're talking about 40% overall growth. That's huge anyway you look at it.

I agree! Either way for Cadillac's it's huge! Let's hope Cadillac becomes bigger than all the other luxury brands in the world. I think Cadillac is on it's way to kick all the German's asses and I support it 100%!!

----------


unless the C7 pops it's head out this year, I wouldn't count on a 2013 ATS-V with a C7 powertrain. The vette guys *always* get exclusive access to new toys for a year or two.

We'll see. GM is all about saving money and even more so these days!

mberisha
01-09-12, 04:29 PM
^^^^^^I sure hope so....we need more Caddies over here!

I know the "car-o-phile" Germans want them! Not ALL of them have been brainwashed by Munich.....yet.....

garfin
01-09-12, 05:31 PM
Good to see GM has found another home for the Solstice/Sky turbo Ecotec engine. I presume they are using the Solstice platform, as there was a 4 door version of the K platform in the works if I remember correctly. The front suspension of the Solstice also seemed to have been designed to accomodate 4WD. If the car actually comes in at the 3400-3500 lb mark, I'd stay with the turbo 4. Not hard to get good power from that motor and many performance parts already available through GM and others. Hopefully, they will have done something to make the manual transmission less tractor-like in feel.

GM is calling the 2.0 Liter turbo in the new ATS a brand new engine with a number of improvements and refinements compared to the engine that was utilized in the Solstice/Sky. The major features are that it is a direct-injection, twin-cam, four-valve-per-cylinder engine with continuously variable valve timing. Also, there is a new twin-scroll turbocharger supplied by Eaton with air-to-air intercooler, (as opposed to the Borg-Warner unit in the Buick), the crankshaft is made from forged steel with a modular balance shaft system and a two-stage variable-displacement oil pump with jet-spray piston cooling.
The power rating is the same as the 2.0 Turbo found in new Buick Regal GS, but the torque is 35 lb-ft shy of the 295 lb-ft rating in the Buick. Fuel economy should be better in the ATS. The exhaust and intake are now opposite from where they used to be. The exhaust manifold has now been integrated into the cylinder head, and the engine will now rev to 6,800 RPM.
GM claims overall engine friction is reduced by up to 16 percent in their press release detailing the new engine.
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Dec/1214_ats

The ATS is built on an entirely new platform (Alpha), whereas the Solstice/Sky was based on the Kappa platform, which was designed primarily as a small rear-drive 2 seat roadster, incorporating some of the design features found in the Corvette. Alpha was designed as a versatile platform for RWD sedans and coupes. The next generation CTS will be built on a stretched Alpha platform and speculation is that the next generation Camaro will utilize this architecture as well.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Elie

Jon
01-09-12, 05:58 PM
The ATS is built on an entirely new platform (Alpha), whereas the Solstice/Sky was based on the Kappa platform, which was designed primarily as a small rear-drive 2 seat roadster, incorporating some of the design features found in the Corvette. Alpha was designed as a versatile platform for RWD sedans and coupes. The next generation CTS will be built on a stretched Alpha platform and speculation is that the next generation Camaro will utilize this architecture as well.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Elie

While that is correct the Alpha platform does uses components from the Kappa.

Patent Guy
01-10-12, 03:20 AM
"The major features are that it is a direct-injection, twin-cam, four-valve-per-cylinder engine with continuously variable valve timing. Also, there is a new twin-scroll turbocharger supplied by Eaton with air-to-air intercooler, (as opposed to the Borg-Warner unit in the Buick), the crankshaft is made from forged steel with a modular balance shaft system and a two-stage variable-displacement oil pump with jet-spray piston cooling."

Do you know which of these features was not present on the Solstice engine? I'm curious.

JetFuelOnly
01-10-12, 03:26 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5874063/2013-cadillac-ats-suck-it-germany

GM currently estimates will throw down an 335i-beating 318 horsepower.



Except for that awesome overboost feature of the 335i that puts down 370 ft/lbs! But maybe that's only on the 335is

M5eater
01-10-12, 06:34 AM
Except for that awesome overboost feature of the 335i that puts down 370 ft/lbs! But maybe that's only on the 335is
thats the 335is. The D/I 3.6 isn't competition for the N54 except on paper anyway, everyone knows it's hugely under-rated and is a mamaoth of an enthusiast engine.