: 2000 Deville Crank Sensor Problems.. Please help if you can..



laclover216
12-15-11, 05:22 PM
Cut off on highway while cruising @ 60mph.. Code pcm 0386 lower CKT Sensor performance/range.. Had it towed home next to my other 2000 Deville which only needs an alternator.. So I took the lower sensor off of it and put it on the bad one.. Tried over and over to start the car after i cleared the codes and no tart but it just kept catching.. finally started using starter fluid and it would start and die out.. Plenty of fuel pressure at rail and pump is coming on.. pcm 0386 code has returned on the sensor that i took out other car and i KNOW it works fine.. no codes for upper sensor nor circuit codes for either sensor..

Momentarily got Cam sensor circuit code 0340 but its gone along with 1106 MAP circuit high.. none of this was before or after car cut off.. only code now after clearing again is pcm 0386.. im stumped.. i need my car bad.. please anybody help.. is it possible the car doesnt want used sensor? Cadillac even said a used sensor should take.. my throttle body was carboned up too, i used b-12 throttle cleaner to get most out and cleanes the IAC valve and sensor + throttle plate.. even though i have no upper code should i have changed both sensors? both lower sensors did NOT say mexico on them nor had part numbers.. but were identical.....??? Also person who helped me let an oil filter adapter o-ring fall off re installing and didnt know.. oil squirting out bottom while cranking.. could oil pressure loss be the culprit? if so it doesnt account for CKT performance code on a working sensor.. HELP!

Submariner409
12-15-11, 06:33 PM
Each CKP does a different job in the ignition/injector timing puzzle. In your engine each CKP is different - mechanically different and electrical connector different. The new gray/black units are made by DENSO in Japan.

Even with one bad CKP the PCM should default to the "limp home" fixed timing settings, controlled by the CMP which senses cylinder TDC: the engine should run but with limited performance.

You would not be the first to find a chafed/burned CKP wiring harness. A good used CKP doesn't care what engine it's in.

ALWAYS change both sensors at once, and if you still have driveability problems you need to take the car to a GM dealer for a "CKP relearn procedure".

laclover216
12-15-11, 08:05 PM
so im still not understanding here why isnt the car starting? i put a working sensor in and its giving me the 0396 after i cleared it out.. basically saying the one i put in is no good and it came from a running car.. no codes for the upper sensor.. so are you saying i have a burnt harness? no circuit codes for ckp.. it cranks but catches.. no start unless starter fluid.. will crank relearn make a difference wether it starts or not? i know it will throw codes until its done but im just trying to get it running at least.. how can i find out which pcm wires are for the ckp's so maybe i can splice in new ones? if necc.. omg.. wth.

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or as you say always change both sensors at once, could not doing so make a difference here also? if so i will take the old upper out plus the used lower out and put in brand new ones if i n must.. also u didnt tell me about the oil pressure..

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*0386 not -96 sorry..

Ranger
12-16-11, 12:10 AM
no tart but it just kept catching.. finally started using starter fluid and it would start and die out..
That indicates a bad fuel pump.


Plenty of fuel pressure at rail and pump is coming on
Define "plenty" and how do you know you have "plenty"?

Submariner409
12-16-11, 11:30 AM
What "oil pressure" ??? Fuel rail pressure should jump to 40+ psi at Key ON and stay there - 41 to 47 psi running. Use the test port on the rail with a fuel pressure gauge tester - it's a Schrader fitting under a black cap.

laclover216
12-16-11, 02:24 PM
Submariner, ** Also person who helped me let an oil filter adapter o-ring fall off re installing and didnt know.. oil squirting out bottom while cranking.. could oil pressure loss be the culprit? if so it doesnt account for CKT performance code on a working sensor.. HELP!
** this oil pressure..

Ranger, if i got a bad pump why would i have CKT codes? i will try to get a pressure gauge.. i pressed the fuel psi gauge several times and it came spraying out. i had gotten gas and jumped on the highway exactly 20 miles.. maybe bad gas or or dirty fuel filter? but still i have one code. lower crank sensor. thats it.

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i put the o ring back into the adapter.. just havent put it back up yet because im totally lost..

Ranger
12-16-11, 02:31 PM
i pressed the fuel psi gauge several times and it came spraying out.
That simply tells you that there is pressure, but not how much. 10 psi will spray fuel, but not run the engine. The simple fact that the engine starts when you spray starting fluid in it and it dies when you stop tells me that there is no fuel getting to the cylinders. The CKP code may be a separate issue. You need to start with the basics and verify enough fuel pressure to rule out the fuel pump. THEN you can move on.

laclover216
12-16-11, 02:35 PM
ok. keep u posted..

Submariner409
12-17-11, 10:34 AM
Something's not ringing true here.............A CKP failure normally shows up as a warmup slow speed stall or a coastdown to stop stall. NOT a shutdown at 60 mph.......and even if one CKP were to fail, the system will default to a fixed timing setting - 10 degrees BTDC - and the car will run in "limp mode". (Still does not explain the P0386 code, though......)

Something else has gone wrong..........Check the fuel pressure - it takes a gauge and connector kit - rent one - maybe the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) has radically failed - as Ranger posted, 10 psi will spray fuel out the test port but it WILL NOT run the engine.

89falcon
12-17-11, 09:47 PM
not trying to be Capt Obvious here....but after you sprayed in starting fluid, did you by chance hook the air plenum back to the throttlebody?

laclover216
12-19-11, 12:45 PM
I haven't gotten pressure tester yet but I just turned the key on and stuck screwdriver in the port and I get one fuel squirt and that's it. Rest of the fuel just sits in the ports mouth. Fuel pump is energizing for priming. I repeat and get the same results each time. Changed relay also.

I failed to mention that when changing the CKT the oil filter bracket fell out and ripped the oil pressure sensor wires out the harness terminals. I had to run longer wires into the terminals. Is it possible the wires are reversed? Not giving signal to fuel pump to energize at crank? Just answered my own question because it shot stay at 40 psi with KOEO but it drops flat. Clogged filter or bad pump? No more pcm codes at all and only starts with starter fluid. No fuel leaks at regulator either..

laclover216
12-19-11, 02:55 PM
not trying to be Capt Obvious here....but after you sprayed in starting fluid, did you by chance hook the air plenum back to the throttlebody?

Yes Falcon, I def reattatched the air plenum, and also reattatched the mass air flow sensor harness before cranking it because for one it can cause a major backfire that can damage inside of plenum injectors and wiring. Been there before, thanks 4 the reminder bro.

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Quick update: change the fuel pressure regulator which seemed fine just to eliminate possible blockage at the end of the fuel rail. Next I pulled the fuel filter off. 11 years old! Previous owner changed the pump earlier in the year but not the filter. I turned the filter on either side to dump out the 'grayish' colored fuel and once it poured out mostly the filter started vomiting so to speak black gunky dirty mess with visible water drops mixed in. Filer is shot to hell and after 11 years 155k miles and 2 pumps later has never been changed. Smdh. So hopefully this is gonna be the culprit. I also grabed a bottle of Snap Gas Dryer to get the moisture out the tank and lines. I'll get new filter today and give it a try. also cleaned out the vac port from TB to regulator.

Ranger
12-19-11, 03:28 PM
The filter could be the problem, but I'd suspect the pump. Keep us updated.

laclover216
12-19-11, 06:55 PM
Just did the filter. Battery is charging now but check to see how fuel was its spraying everywhere constantly as long as key on and valve depressed. I actually cleaned the old filter with b-12 just to see how clogged it was and it was blocked with sludge dirt grit water and everything else. Then did the straw test and it blew without excessive resistance. There's acually another wbsite that tells how to clean a clogged filter n if ur not sure its cleared to replace. But anyway fuel pressure is outrageous now. Ill try it soon as battery charges more. Give me 30 mins. And thank all you guys.

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Changing batteries now this ones shot. But I think the filter not bein changed affected the pump cuz its gotta be weak. Unless my engine just flooded. I don't know what's going on.

Has to be the pump. I got another 2000 deville next to this one I'll take that pump out if neccesary. I held the screwdriver down and after the mega blasts of fuel subsided pressure ran flat.

I don't know if its because of this weak battery that dies out after a few cranks or just the pump. Can also hear the pump while I'm cranking so it has signal from oil sensor. Filter is flowing too. Pressure regulator got swapped as well.

Ranger
12-19-11, 09:42 PM
but check to see how fuel was its spraying everywhere constantly as long as key on and valve depressed.
You CANNOT go by that. You need to check the actual fuel pressure with a pressure gauge.


I held the screwdriver down and after the mega blasts of fuel subsided pressure ran flat.


That's normal. The pump only runs for 2-3 seconds and then shuts down if the engine is not cranked.

laclover216
12-19-11, 11:53 PM
So could it be the battery? I've had to charge the batteries so many times during this week n a half long procedure that I may have fried them. The batt that was in the car was already on its last leg and half full. I topped the cells with water. I'll try 2 get pressure tester 2morrow. I'm getting lost here. Running out of eliminations with zero pcm codes now.

Ranger
12-20-11, 11:13 AM
This thread is all over the place, from CKP sensors to fuel pressure to fuel filter to battery. You have to start with basics. If the battery is weak and gets to low it can stall the engine. If you have to charge it several times a week, something is wrong. You also must have good fuel pressure.

laclover216
12-20-11, 01:12 PM
Ranger I'm trying to start with the basics I'm giving you my experience hand 4 hand. You have no idea how frustrating this is for me. The battery dies after repeated cranking. Recharge retry redie. I don't know what to do. Next I was gonna say I don't think the injectors are coming on. I hear the fuel pump but not the injectors opening. I'm ready to give up. I'm not obligating you guys to help just asking and my intentions not to frustrate anyone more than me. Just need my car badddd. Smh.

laclover216
12-20-11, 02:12 PM
PCM P0340 Cam Position Sensor. Which is why the injectors aren't pulsing. This sensor is respnsible for the pcm firing the injectors. I knew it had to be something. I just wasn't sure exactly what the CMP sensor controlled. My injectors are dead.

89falcon
12-20-11, 02:38 PM
PCM P0340 Cam Position Sensor. Which is why the injectors aren't pulsing. This sensor is respnsible for the pcm firing the injectors. I knew it had to be something. I just wasn't sure exactly what the CMP sensor controlled. My injectors are dead.

You may want to check the continuity of the wires from the CPS all the way to the PCM......I had problems with a bad VSS....which wasn't the VSS at all....it was a bad place in one of the wires...ended up bypassing the bad place and problem was solved...

Ranger
12-20-11, 03:33 PM
The PCM controls the injector pulses. How do you know they are not pulsing? You might be able to hear them pulse with a stethoscope on each one, but you'll have to listen closely to hear them over the starter cranking. Have you checked the injector fuses? I think they are labeled ING1 & IGN2.

laclover216
12-20-11, 04:47 PM
Ranger, what I thought was pulse is when u hear the injectors power but I rolled down window and turned key on from outside and I heard injectors power on. So not sure and I have no resources. In a financial bind which contributes my desperation. My sons birthday is today.

Falcon89, that could be a possibility but I can't check it myself to know. Only pcm codes I have now is 0340 MMP sensor circuit. I sprayed starter fluid in intake and it just catches it but not starts up. Honestly I don't know what to do. Just doesn't make sense.

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Before it started from fluid now its not. Just cranks and catches until all it does is crank then after a short while batter dead. Before this car cranked up on the first turn low batt or not. Starting to think computer is bad but that's the last thing I wanna resort to. Oh and the vacuum line that connects to the TB on the left side of the IAC snapped in half. I been working in the cold soon as it got disturbed it broke the other day. Plugs into something between rear coil and plenum. I apologize for dragging u guys along with false progress. I'm on my own with this and no clue

Ranger
12-20-11, 09:01 PM
Ranger, what I thought was pulse is when u hear the injectors power but I rolled down window and turned key on from outside and I heard injectors power on. So not sure and I have no resources.
The injectors pulse (on and off) so all you will hear is a rhythmic clicking and you won't hear it at KOEO. You will only hear it while cranking or at idle, but it will be hard to hear with the naked ear. No stethoscope? Try putting a screwdriver on it and stick the handle in your ear or better yet, use a length of vacuum or heater hose.

laclover216
12-20-11, 10:11 PM
Ok Range will try that in the morning. If I hear or don't hear pulse then what to eliminate possibly? The cmp & ckt sensors run together thru the pcm so maybe after replacing the ckt and satisfying the pcm with a workin sensor it cleared 0386 then showed that the cmp sensor/circuit malfunctioned. I hear the ckt's can go bad and short or burn out the cam and crank circuit wires altogether. This is crazy because I never had an issue I couldn't resolve on a Caddy. That's all I drive. No northstar? I won't buy it. So I've learned much about them thru the years and from you guys the past 4 years. But this ones eating me alive lol. A warm garage proper lighting and tools and a helper then I'd have more of a chance.

laclover216
12-30-11, 08:34 PM
Update: put in 2 brand new crank sensors today, battery was low up on completion but now I checked codes and I had 0336, 0386, & 0340. I know its not the cam sensor and I just replaced both cranks. Never had the upper crank code until I changed them both today. I understand battery may stall engine but is it possible the pcm accepted the new sensors and failure to do relearn caused all 3 codes now? I got a couple cranks n battery gave out n started clicking.. I'm gonna charge battery once more tonite.. What do you guys think or know?

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Oh yeah, the 4th code I got after installing sensors and cranking engune was 0601.. Trans Control Module. Let it sit a few mins and code went history. Other 3 remain.

Ranger
12-30-11, 09:29 PM
Low voltage can cause false codes.

Did you clear the codes after installing the CKP sensors? It takes 3 ignition cycles for them to go away on their own.

laclover216
12-31-11, 12:00 AM
I don't think I cleared them no. Because I was hoping the computer would pick up the new sensors and put codes in history. But my first turn of key to on position batt was low as it told me service security and only does that at low voltage. I mentioned the last thing I had done was crc cleaned the cam sensor wires, connector and all which were caked with oil n crud.. Which reminds me! I found an effortless way to remove cam sensor. Simply disconnect coolant level sensor and the 3 bolts holding surge tank, prop surge tank up on the strut tower and walah! Full clearance to cam sensor. No tight space no power steering pump romoval. When I get a chance I'll post a sticky for it.

laclover216
12-31-11, 10:52 AM
Up early with a fresh charged battery. No start.

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Tank almost half full. Have no idea now. New sensors! Correctly installed.

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I hate to admit it but, I bought crank sensors new at Auto Zone.. Could that be the problem? Duralast brand..

Ranger
12-31-11, 11:39 AM
I have little faith in Autozone Don'tlast parts, but it is impossible to say they are the problem or not.

RippyPartsDept
12-31-11, 12:10 PM
:yeah:

i know of nobody that uses aftermarket crank sensors on these N* engines (at least not with any success)

Submariner409
12-31-11, 12:58 PM
The proper set of CKP's for the 2000 and later engines are made by DENSO in Japan (AC Delco contract). All or some of that information is printed on the electrical connector protector skirt.

If the unit is printed "Made in China" then all bets are off.

Ranger
12-31-11, 10:53 PM
Apparently Autozone CKP sensors are made by Wells Manufacturing "headquartered" in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, but the parts are made in Reynosa, Mexico. Wonder who made those bad CKP sensors GM had in 2000-2003? I know they came from Mexico.

RippyPartsDept
01-01-12, 05:29 AM
Siemens?

Submariner409
01-01-12, 11:27 AM
Siemens?

Siemens, Mexico. I still have my old (failed) set.

Ranger
01-01-12, 11:28 AM
Ah yeah, Siemens. I knew Wells did not sound familiar.

laclover216
01-02-12, 01:25 AM
Ok! And the lower sensor was returned to auto zone by a previous customer after a fail fresh out the box and they sold it to me anyway! I've returned them for refund and I will be getting Denso sensors or.. AC Delco? My car didn't like either sensor I. Installed. So yea, they were mexican and upper was tan and lower was barely black. More like a dark dark grey. Sound like old stock hammy down from original defected stock sensors. Denso it is but how about AC Delco? Are they Denso's packed as AC Delco?

Submariner409
01-02-12, 10:28 AM
DENSO has the GM contract for CKP's as well as other Hall effect sensors and spark plugs.

laclover216
01-02-12, 01:08 PM
Thanks I got it.. Pics helped a lot so now I know what packaging to expect. Winters gonna kick our ass for a couple days so I'll keep you guys posted when I can get back under the car. The job is so easy now I can do it in 20 mins flat. Just gotta reinstal Denso's and mount everything back. You guys have been a big help in understanding the difficulty and history of these sensors and the ineffective brands that sell them.

Submariner409
01-02-12, 01:50 PM
For more insight on your '00's and a little on the '99 click on my username, open my profile. 2 albums, 6 pages of pictures and diagrams of engine and car parts and maintenance.

laclover216
01-02-12, 02:15 PM
Thanks Sub! I will do that.. I'm on my cell now, I'll do it from my laptop so I can create a folder to save some images. About to buy a clean '98 Deville Concours for $1000 that won't start after sitting 6mos due to driving newer car. Sure its the fuel pump or relay sticking. But I'll get back 2 you guys with these sensors.