: ethanol or not



eldoedwardo
12-14-11, 05:37 PM
hello everyone
my question is about lower octane with no ethanol ,or higher octane with supposedly 10% ethanol?
i read a post where rippy's pd wrote 'use what the owners manual says to use'...period.09/01/11.. sounds like
real good advice, however my cars' manual does not address the issues of todays fuel.
whats you guys' thoughts on this?
when in doubt ,ask the people with the experience! run 'em feed it the best
thanks ed

maeng9981
12-14-11, 06:12 PM
Google "Top Tier Gasoline" and use it. Northstars have sophisticated knock sensors and will be happy to run anything 87-93 octane. Over 93 and you achieve exactly nothing - those "octane boosters" are a joke.

It is okay to run 100% gasoline or E10 or anything in between. When E10 is used the gas mileage and performance will suffer but not by too much. Nowadays it's difficult to find a gas station that sells 100% gasoline (at least around my area).

Cabby42
12-14-11, 06:14 PM
Around here even the 87 octane has ethanol. The last 100% gas disappeared when Texaco pulled out of the state.
A friend owns an independent station. He can no longer get 100% gas. In many states the ethanol content isn't required to be labeled on the pump.
It isn't required here, but usually only the "premium" pump has the ethanol content labeled. Even though the ethanol is in all three grades.
Myself, I use the 93 octane.
Ralph

00 Deville
12-14-11, 09:45 PM
Nowadays it's difficult to find a gas station that sells 100% gasoline (at least around my area).

There are very few stations around here that sell non-ethanol gas. Of the one's that do... it's usually at a marina or at a single pump off to the side and priced quite a bit higher. The majority of non-ethanol sales around here are used in marine applications.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NC

Submariner409
12-14-11, 10:38 PM
Remember: Gasoline no longer uses MTBE (MethylTertiaryButylEther) as an octane booster/emissions additive due to its ability to leach out of ground storage tanks and pollute wells and groundwater. We haven't used TetraEthylLead ("leaded gas") in automotive gasolines for quite a while because the stuff is death to catalytic converters. Enter Ethanol - an organic octane booster, anti-knock additive, and darling of The Corn Lobby. Not only is ethanol an octane booster, but it is also a powerful detergent. BUT, TANSTAAFL (There Ain 't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) - ethanol does not produce the same heat energy (BTU) as gasoline, so a 10% mixture decreases actual gas mileage a tiny percentage. When our knee-jerk EPA government nodding idiots succeed in mandating E15 we will see another (incrementally larger) gas mileage decrease per unit gallon, to the delight and glee of the Corn Lobby.

Wanna do a teeny tiny protest movement ?? Look at http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?

Late 1940's into the '50's - "Fill it with ethyl, please !"
(http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?)

Ranger
12-14-11, 11:09 PM
:yeah:
Ethanol increases octane, but lowers MPG. Given the choice I'll take 100% gasoline every time when I can find it (which is very rare).

ThumperPup
12-14-11, 11:16 PM
Google "Top Tier Gasoline" and use it. Northstars have sophisticated knock sensors and will be happy to run anything 87-93 octane. Over 93 and you achieve exactly nothing - those "octane boosters" are a joke.

It is okay to run 100% gasoline or E10 or anything in between. When E10 is used the gas mileage and performance will suffer but not by too much. Nowadays it's difficult to find a gas station that sells 100% gasoline (at least around my area).

his 99 is set up to run on Primeume grade fuel i think 91 and higher
where my 2000 is set to run on 87 Regular this is the case for 2000 and newer n's and 91octane and higher for 99 and older i think

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there is a list i have posted a link to a few times pure-gas.org i think or something like that i havent used the link in months since i know where the E free fuels are near me

but you can find E free fuels
and most likly easier to find in the summer months up North because you can go to places that sell fuel for rec use and fine E free fuels there

Ranger
12-14-11, 11:42 PM
his 99 is set up to run on Primeume grade fuel i think 91 and higher
where my 2000 is set to run on 87 Regular this is the case for 2000 and newer n's and 91octane and higher for 99 and older i think
Irrelevant. They all have knock sensors to compensate.

ThumperPup
12-14-11, 11:49 PM
Irrelevant. They all have knock sensors to compensate.

Oh ok

Submariner409
12-15-11, 10:50 AM
.............and use the link in post #5.

eldoedwardo
12-15-11, 11:56 AM
thanks everybody, iv'e been to those links ,good info,there are a couple of places (marinas) around town.i guess as long as the 10% mix isn't detremental to the engine or its componets i will continue to use shell. i suppose any company that drills for crude is going to destroy people and property

ThumperPup
12-15-11, 04:06 PM
.............and use the link in post #5.

yup thats it the link you posted thats the sight i think i first posted a link to sevral times but erlier in the year i think is when i first posted that for some one

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when i drive to Detroit i stop at this Marathon station about 10 minutes away from the turnpike before i get on
and drive from round trip to the D and back to Cleveland i pull 31mpg on Cruise Control at 68-69 mph
do that same trip same speed in Shell 87 and i get around 25-26mpg

Submariner409
12-15-11, 07:40 PM
WOW !!! You need to go to work for GM Powertrain Engineering: A 6 mpg gain in your observed fuel mileage is an 18% - 20 % difference. You will be an overnight millionaire.

47 miles down the Shore from here, in Cambridge, there's an independent that sells non-ethanol 89 octane at $.06 more/gallon than the ethanol version. Every now and then I use the stuff for grins; on a 220 mile one-way to Norfolk, VA I get less than a 0.5 mpg gain, about the same conditions, flat road - not a hill in sight. It's not worth the 3-mile detour in my case.

ThumperPup
12-15-11, 08:11 PM
WOW !!! You need to go to work for GM Powertrain Engineering: A 6 mpg gain in your observed fuel mileage is an 18% - 20 % difference. You will be an overnight millionaire.

47 miles down the Shore from here, in Cambridge, there's an independent that sells non-ethanol 89 octane at $.06 more/gallon than the ethanol version. Every now and then I use the stuff for grins; on a 220 mile one-way to Norfolk, VA I get less than a 0.5 mpg gain, about the same conditions, flat road - not a hill in sight. It's not worth the 3-mile detour in my case.

well when it comes down to it Both are cars are Different and not the same
so i don't know how come you only get about a .5mpg gain and i get around 6mpg but that is what i do and what i get
now yeah if i hit it at 75 or 80 that MPG goes way down
but still i know if i was anyone els i would be sceptical also
about this

but for me i know what i get
i don't notice much diference city driving no matter where i am in the city or what gas i put it in always get around 16-18 mpg city driving but on the highway it just jumps right up with E Free and im not talking about what the Onboard system tells me im doing my own math and figured it out like this
if i fill up and then get to where i am going and fill up again i take the amount i had to top off with when i got to my destination and take that with the miles driven and calculate my MPG
i realy ever use or go by the INST or AVG MPG on the on board system

Ranger
12-16-11, 01:04 AM
when i drive to Detroit i stop at this Marathon station about 10 minutes away from the turnpike before i get on
and drive from round trip to the D and back to Cleveland i pull 31mpg on Cruise Control at 68-69 mph
do that same trip same speed in Shell 87 and i get around 25-26mpg
I don't know what your point is. Marathon is better than Shell? You're using different octane fuels? One has ethanol and the other doesn't? Either way, all factors being the same (speed, wind, load, temperature) there is no way you are getting 6 MPG difference. SOME FACTOR is different.

maeng9981
12-16-11, 04:03 AM
You can't control wind direction & speed.

Submariner409
12-16-11, 12:57 PM
Yeah.............There are a couple of ways to check overall fuel mileage in these cars................

The long-term setting is good two ways: Either leave it alone forever - that way your real, true overall mileage shows: Right now mine is sitting at 20.8 after a mix of city, suburban, rural, highway driving. After a 220 mile trip to Norfolk it will get to 22.X. After an 817 mile trip to Gainesville it will get to 24.X.

BUT........Let's say you're going to do a road trip just after changing something - spark plugs, maybe. At the fillup before you get on the highway, reset the long term mileage readout - it will go to " ... mpg avg". As soon as you start the engine the readout will begin to change, based on the PCM calculated fuel flow vs. miles. The readout will slowly ratchet up to some reading - say 25.0 mpg for the sake of argument. You slow down, get off the exit for lunch. The readout drops a couple of tenths, doesn't it ? Get back on the road and drive another 4 hours and the readout gets back to or just above the first high reading. Get to your destination, slow down, and the readout drops again. You make a mental note: "25.3 mpg was the highest seen on this road trip". That's the best it can be, under those conditions, on that road, with that gasoline, etc., etc.. You drive around your vacation area for a few days - the long-term readout drops even farther. You head home for the reverse trip and the mileage begins to ratchet back to 25.3, but it takes longer to get there because there are now a whole lot more data points in the average than a week ago.

Soooooooo.............your average was 25.3, max. In the future, if you cannot reset the readout, make a long trip and duplicate that mileage, something has changed.

The instantaneous readout is fun for trying to figure out how far down you have pushed the gas pedal.

Without external calibrated tanks, lines, meters and test setups it is impossible to accurately calculate fuel mileage based solely on gallons pumped vs. mileage for one or two fillups - you have no way of knowing whether you're a quart or half gallon over or under what you put in before - even by hand, it takes a LOT of gasoline through the tank to calculate an accurate fuel mileage............BUT, because we have built-in fuel computers, a little intelligent comparison can give you a fairly accurate picture in little more than 2 tanks of gas.

ThumperPup
12-16-11, 10:39 PM
I don't know what your point is. Marathon is better than Shell? You're using different octane fuels? One has ethanol and the other doesn't? Either way, all factors being the same (speed, wind, load, temperature) there is no way you are getting 6 MPG difference. SOME FACTOR is different.

No thats not my Point i use this Marathon station that is named Marathon but the owner i guess doesn't use fuel in it that has Ethanol like say we got 100 Marathon stations in one area well there is this one that does not use E in there fuel so i stop thats what im trying to say im not trying to say one is better then the other im just saying what i get is what i get when i use the fuel from this one Marathon my guess is its just the name and he doesn't use marathon fuel or orders it special from Marathon without the E in it i guess

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Without external calibrated tanks, lines, meters and test setups it is impossible to accurately calculate fuel mileage based solely on gallons pumped vs. mileage for one or two fillups - you have no way of knowing whether you're a quart or half gallon over or under what you put in before - even by hand, it takes a LOT of gasoline through the tank to calculate an accurate fuel mileage............BUT, because we have built-in fuel computers, a little intelligent comparison can give you a fairly accurate picture in little more than 2 tanks of gas.

ok so i guess i ahve not been as acurate as i thought then when checking my Fuel MPG
cause i will fill up when untill the tank won't take anymore i look at my fuel recite and see what i pumped
i also then enter it into the Fuel Calculation on my GPS HU
then i drive 192 miles to my Girlfriends house when i get off the highway i fill up with non E Free regular ethanol fuel
i enter that in my GPS HU for what i pumped what i paid per gallon it calculates what pumped how much i pumped on my last fill up what i pumped at this current fill up how much i used to how many miles i drove it tells me around 30-31 sometimes it says 30.1 sometimes it says 30.9

then i get back on the highway drive another 192 miles back home i fill up when i get off the highway enter what i pumped to fill up my tanke and i then drop to about 25.2 or 25.6 or 26.1 what ever it tells me so its calculating what im getting that why i say thats what i can get

but i only go by what the math comes out to
i don't go buy the On board computer

Ranger
12-16-11, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ranger
I don't know what your point is. Marathon is better than Shell? You're using different octane fuels? One has ethanol and the other doesn't? Either way, all factors being the same (speed, wind, load, temperature) there is no way you are getting 6 MPG difference. SOME FACTOR is different.


No thats not my Point i use this Marathon station that is named Marathon but the owner i guess doesn't use fuel in it that has Ethanol like say we got 100 Marathon stations in one area well there is this one that does not use E in there fuel so i stop thats what im trying to say im not trying to say one is better then the other im just saying what i get is what i get when i use the fuel from this one Marathon my guess is its just the name and he doesn't use marathon fuel or orders it special from Marathon without the E in it i guess

What I was trying to say and you failed to understand, is that there is now way you are going to see a 6 MPG difference between 10% ethanol fuel and 0% ethanol fuels. Now if you where running E85, then yes I could see that.

ThumperPup
12-16-11, 11:24 PM
What I was trying to say and you failed to understand, is that there is now way you are going to see a 6 MPG difference between 10% ethanol fuel and 0% ethanol fuels. Now if you where running E85, then yes I could see that.

oh hell know i would never put E85 in the car lol
hm ok i have to refigure how im calculating maybe call up Pioneer also ask them if they have had issues with there systems cause that is what is calculating my fuel use and all
maybe there is a problem with the system
perhaps
and thats it
or when i fill up sometimes it wont let me put as much fuel in the tank at times i guess or something like that

Submariner409
12-17-11, 10:59 AM
In 1,250 words we're trying to say that one fillup won't be accurate for figuring gas mileage. It takes a LOT of gasoline to calculate an accurate long-term mileage figure.

A 192 mile drive at your 31 mpg figure is about 6.2 gallons - 1/3 tank..........so you start off full, get to her house, maybe drive around a bit. Say you fill up at the start of the trip back home using 9.5 gallons - a half tank, so you have only diluted your original, theoretical non-ethanol full tank of gas by 50% - that blows most of your ethanol/non-ethanol equation out of the water because you're now running "E5".

If you filled up as soon as you got back home, at 26 mpg you would need 7.4 gallons, 1.2 gallons more than before - a roughly 15% difference.

You know darn well that Pioneer or any other GPS fuel calculator is merely a cutesy substitute for a pocket calculator; Pioneer isn't going to have "system problems". Just like our computers, garbage in = garbage out.

The long-term fuel calculator readout in your car is more accurate than your manual entry system. Long term, T P, not a half tank.

ThumperPup
12-17-11, 12:23 PM
In 1,250 words we're trying to say that one fillup won't be accurate for figuring gas mileage. It takes a LOT of gasoline to calculate an accurate long-term mileage figure.

A 192 mile drive at your 31 mpg figure is about 6.2 gallons - 1/3 tank..........so you start off full, get to her house, maybe drive around a bit. Say you fill up at the start of the trip back home using 9.5 gallons - a half tank, so you have only diluted your original, theoretical non-ethanol full tank of gas by 50% - that blows most of your ethanol/non-ethanol equation out of the water because you're now running "E5".

If you filled up as soon as you got back home, at 26 mpg you would need 7.4 gallons, 1.2 gallons more than before - a roughly 15% difference.

You know darn well that Pioneer or any other GPS fuel calculator is merely a cutesy substitute for a pocket calculator; Pioneer isn't going to have "system problems". Just like our computers, garbage in = garbage out.

The long-term fuel calculator readout in your car is more accurate than your manual entry system. Long term, T P, not a half tank.

ok thanks now i think i get it better that you have explained it like that

Submariner409
12-17-11, 02:37 PM
As good ol' Pogo would say: "Rowrbazzle !! You're good for my post count !!!" .................Miz Hepzibah....... (my apologies to Walt Kelly)

mmidyette
12-17-11, 10:28 PM
The long-term fuel calculator readout in your car is more accurate than your manual entry system.

Regarding the cars calculations, is there a way to calibrate the car's readings? I take note of, and reset, my cars "gal fuel used" setting and compare it to the pump reading and it averages about 1 gallon off every fill-up. When the car says 15 gal used, the pump will show 16. It's not a large percentage, but it is consistent, even at different stations.

Submariner409
12-18-11, 10:31 AM
I think that's a fixed system - the PCM calculates fuel use by injector timing and pulse width comparison.

Just for grins and kicks, find a 20 oz. jug of Chevron TECHRON and dump it into a fill up of Shell, Chevron, EXXON, or Texaco (TopTier) 93 octane gasoline.

TECHRON is a powerful fuel system cleaner - only once per 5,000 miles - see if that brings your averages a little closer over the long term.

My "fuel used" is right on. If I "squeeze it full" the used readout gets a little haywire, but if I pump very close to what the readout says, the tank always indicates full.

mmidyette
12-19-11, 05:35 PM
Thanks Sub. I'll give the TECHRON a shot, but I'll have to go out of town to find a TT station. Just Marathon, petro, Kangaroo, Etc here, with one BP station that is questionable:hide:

00 Deville
12-19-11, 10:35 PM
... with one BP station that is questionable:hide:

The one across the street from McDonald's?

ThumperPup
12-19-11, 11:15 PM
my readouts on fuel used have always been dead on with the amount that i pump well as dead on as it can be with in negative .2 to postivie .3 of a gallon

mmidyette
12-20-11, 02:56 AM
The one across the street from McDonald's?

Yep. Thats the one.

My town went from having GM, Chrysler, and Ford dealerships, Shell, Citgo, Exxon, BP, and Texeco fuel, to only used cars dealers and cheaper gas stations...:(
I haven't stopped at BP since the Gulf spill, nor exxon since the Alaskan spill.

ThumperPup
12-20-11, 11:09 AM
I haven't stopped at BP since the Gulf spill, l.

I also have not used a BP since the Gulf Spill
how ever i have to fix that statment with a I have not stopped at Corporate BP owned BP stations
i will stop at some small Private owned BP's that i know are privately owned around here
I won't stop at the AMPM stations because all the ones around me out of like 30 in cleveland only 1 of them is Private owned
so i stop at that one up the street from me if needed

00 Deville
12-20-11, 11:20 AM
Yep. Thats the one.

My town went from having GM, Chrysler, and Ford dealerships, Shell, Citgo, Exxon, BP, and Texeco fuel, to only used cars dealers and cheaper gas stations...:(
I haven't stopped at BP since the Gulf spill, nor exxon since the Alaskan spill.

At least you still have the Front Porch to fill your tank.

Submariner409
12-20-11, 04:23 PM
my readouts on fuel used have always been dead on with the amount that i pump well as dead on as it can be with in negative .2 to postivie .3 of a gallon

That's curious.................In Post #14 you said that you never use the onboard fuel calculator.

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I haven't stopped at BP since the Gulf spill, nor exxon since the Alaskan spill.

It all comes out of the same refineries and the proprietary fuel additive package(s) are dumped in at the truck loading station. You think that 10 different refiners have 10 different oil pipelines running from Houston to Chicago ??? Now, it's sort of possible that Shell, CONOCO, EXXON and Texaco share the same pipeline and their products are separated by pigs, but that's a stretch.

ThumperPup
12-20-11, 07:09 PM
That's curious.................In Post #14 you said that you never use the onboard fuel calculator.
ok i have not used it in 2 months since i got the Pioneer HU that has the calculation in it but the Old Stock Navi did not have the fuel Calculation part and when i did use it it was always dead on or close to it

now at the moment i don't know i don't pay much atention for past 2 months
but before the Pioneer HU with the fuel option on it
I used the Fuel used all the time

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[QUOTE=submariner409;2805171]

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It all comes out of the same refineries and the proprietary fuel additive package(s) are dumped in at the truck loading station. You think that 10 different refiners have 10 different oil pipelines running from Houston to Chicago ??? Now, it's sort of possible that Shell, CONOCO, EXXON and Texaco share the same pipeline and their products are separated by pigs, but that's a stretch.

I would rather stop for gas at a private owned BP if i need to rather then a corporate owned one that didn't want to do there job or stand up and help out didn't seem to care

the private owners of private BP stations had nothing to do with it yes there oil came from there pipe lines
and used BP fuel
but does that mean that a owner who is pinching pennies trying to stay in business and eat and not die
should suffer no

mmidyette
12-20-11, 11:38 PM
At least you still have the Front Porch to fill your tank.

Yep, Robbin keeps a lot of people fed there. Even that was a Western Sizzilin in the past.

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It all comes out of the same refineries and the proprietary fuel additive package(s) are dumped in at the truck loading station. You think that 10 different refiners have 10 different oil pipelines running from Houston to Chicago ???
Nope, but part of the profits go back to their respective companies...

Cabby42
12-24-11, 01:14 PM
Irrelevant. They all have knock sensors to compensate.

Sure they have knock sensors. But why would you run an engine designed to run on 91 octane on 87 octane?
The computer will retard the ignition, reducing performance.
You might as well drive a Kia :banghead:
Ralph

RippyPartsDept
12-24-11, 01:41 PM
There are very few stations around here that sell non-ethanol gas. Of the one's that do... it's usually at a marina or at a single pump off to the side and priced quite a bit higher. The majority of non-ethanol sales around here are used in marine applications.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NC

Have you been using any of those stations in town?

I thought about going down to the masonboro country store once.

I usually jus stick with shell from cardinal and Eastwood or the one on wrightsville behind lumina station.

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Sure they have knock sensors. But why would you run an engine designed to run on 91 octane on 87 octane?
The computer will retard the ignition, reducing performance.
You might as well drive a Kia :banghead:
Ralph

The differences will only be noticed at WOT high in the rpm's. And only noticeable on a dyno

Butt dynos are not sensitive enough to notice the difference.

I run 87 very often in my 99 - I can't tell the difference except for the price.

maeng9981
12-24-11, 03:37 PM
:yeah: Reduced performance - but by how much? I believe it's still got more than enough for regular city/highway driving. There may be a slight difference in performance, but you don't race or tow 24/7. Won't hurt a thing driving around with 87 octane gasoline. PCM knows how to deal with all the octane ratings unless it is too low.

Submariner409
12-24-11, 05:16 PM
Sure they have knock sensors. But why would you run an engine designed to run on 91 octane on 87 octane?
The computer will retard the ignition, reducing performance.

Make that ^^^ "may".

Quick questions, applied to either octane:

1. What exactly IS the timing retard (from full advance: it never actually goes to retard) for a pre-2000 AND a 2000+ VIN 9 drivetrain at WOT, 1st gear redline ?
2. What is the timing advance for the same engines running at about 60 mph on a highway cruise ?
3. If there is any timing difference, what is it and how much does it affect delivered engine power ?

(FWIW, these engines have a very short stroke, so overall timing is way less than say, an old 454 block. The engines idle at about 5 - 11 degrees BTDC (emissions) and run at about 34 degrees BTDC on the highway. The electronic ignition is extremely dynamic - it never stays in one place, and even the slightest movement of the gas pedal changes timing - sometimes radically.)

There will be NO performance differences due to the octane difference noticeable in normal driving. Yes, if you tow a trailer, drive in mountainous terrain, or regularly compete at the strip you need the extra protection from detonation under extreme loads - but for daily driving the economy and performance differences will be so slight as to be unnoticeable. The knock sensor does its job, the adjustments are NOT radical, and you'll never know the thing is operating.

Ranger
12-24-11, 09:33 PM
Sure they have knock sensors. But why would you run an engine designed to run on 91 octane on 87 octane?
The computer will retard the ignition, reducing performance.
You might as well drive a Kia :banghead:
Ralph
You will not be able to tell the difference. Been there, done that.

Cabby42
12-24-11, 10:07 PM
Well, I do drive in mountainous terrain, and I can tell the difference.
Maybe for flatlanders, your results may be different.
Ralph

00 Deville
12-29-11, 11:52 PM
Have you been using any of those stations in town?

I thought about going down to the masonboro country store once.

I usually jus stick with shell from cardinal and Eastwood or the one on wrightsville behind lumina station.

I usually go to the BP in Ogden beside Big Lots for my non-ethanol needs (boat motor)... they have it at one pump. I normally run the 87 octane (>10% ethanol) from the same station in the caddy... due to the difference in pricing and convenience. The non-ethanol pump doesn't have pay at the pump, you have to go in and pre-pay.

RippyPartsDept
12-30-11, 10:36 AM
I might try that once here in the near future... that's pretty easy to get to (plus a friend lives off of middle sound loop right there)

vincentm
12-30-11, 03:26 PM
Remember: Gasoline no longer uses MTBE (MethylTertiaryButylEther) as an octane booster/emissions additive due to its ability to leach out of ground storage tanks and pollute wells and groundwater. We haven't used TetraEthylLead ("leaded gas") in automotive gasolines for quite a while because the stuff is death to catalytic converters. Enter Ethanol - an organic octane booster, anti-knock additive, and darling of The Corn Lobby. Not only is ethanol an octane booster, but it is also a powerful detergent. BUT, TANSTAAFL (There Ain 't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) - ethanol does not produce the same heat energy (BTU) as gasoline, so a 10% mixture decreases actual gas mileage a tiny percentage. When our knee-jerk EPA government nodding idiots succeed in mandating E15 we will see another (incrementally larger) gas mileage decrease per unit gallon, to the delight and glee of the Corn Lobby.

Wanna do a teeny tiny protest movement ?? Look at http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?

Late 1940's into the '50's - "Fill it with ethyl, please !"
(http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?)


Holy shit one of the gas stations listed on there is right around the corner from my office and i use that from time to time, gonna keep filling up there. Thanks!