: IF the Cadillac ATS-V gets a V8...



Lord Cadillac
12-08-11, 11:51 AM
...it'll be naturally aspirated - no supercharger or turbo (unless plans change). It still appears as if the ATS-V will get the twin turbo 3.0 liter direct injected V6. Either way, I'm thinking this doesn't sound too good for people who want a small Cadillac to compete with the new BMW M3 and cars like it. The ATS-V is probably not going to be a whole lot lighter than the CTS-V - but it'll have probably 100 less horsepower. GM may surprise us, though...

buttfish77
12-08-11, 02:19 PM
How long after the ATS sedan can we expect the release of the "V"?

Lord Cadillac
12-08-11, 05:00 PM
My guess is one year. If the ATS-V is getting the twin turbo V6 which won't be available until late 2013 - then I guess that's about when we'll see the ATS-V. Hopefully there are no further delays with that engine (LF3).

0AT E03
12-08-11, 10:57 PM
I wouldn't be looking for it prior to MY2015. Think about it. Cadillac has too focus on the Gen3 CTS. It would be a mistake to worry about an ATS-V right now. Once the Gen3 CTS is out the door, I'd imagine the V will debut. Also if it is a V8 it has to debut in the Corvette first (which I believe is a 2014), if it's the Twin Turbo I doubt that drops until 2014.5 or so. My money is on the V more than likely to be a MY2016.

Lord Cadillac
12-08-11, 11:06 PM
Wow. That's the first time I'm hearing this - though I don't doubt you...


I wouldn't be looking for it prior to MY2015. Think about it. Cadillac has too focus on the Gen3 CTS. It would be a mistake to worry about an ATS-V right now. Once the Gen3 CTS is out the door, I'd imagine the V will debut. Also if it is a V8 it has to debut in the Corvette first (which I believe is a 2014), if it's the Twin Turbo I doubt that drops until 2014.5 or so. My money is on the V more than likely to be a MY2016.

thebigjimsho
12-09-11, 12:03 AM
I don't think that's bad. If it were an LS V8, the engine shouldn't bloat the scales and should be inline with the V1. And since current LS motors are in the 430hp range, it would be competitive, methinks...

JD03Cobra
12-09-11, 12:08 PM
My cousin is a Engineer at GM (Milford Test Track) and he's currently testing the emissions for the twin turbo 3.0L V6. Not sure if it's going into the V model but it's in it's final stages.

I prefer a V8 ATS-V myself.

rand49er
12-10-11, 02:07 AM
... It still appears as if the ATS-V will get the twin turbo 3.0 liter direct injected V6. ... The ATS-V is probably not going to be a whole lot lighter than the CTS-V - but it'll have probably 100 less horsepower. ...Why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice in it while you're at it!




... I prefer a V8 ATS-V myself.Yeah that.

Jason, we need to get your cousin out for a few beers one of these days.

concorso
12-16-11, 01:30 PM
I cant see why the V8 wouldnt be a good option. Will the ttV6 make 450 hp? The M3 already makes 415 and thatll surely get a TTV8 bump to around 450. Its also lighter then what the ATS-V is looking to weigh.

That TTV6 will almost surely be close in weight to the LS V8. The V6 is allready more expensive to build then the LSV8...the TTV6 will be even more expensive then the V6. I think the TTV6 should simply replace the V6.

JimmyH
12-25-11, 10:42 PM
From a production standpoint, the LS3 (or its successor) makes the most sense. But a luxury performance sedan is not about making sense. There are rumors flying around that Cadillac (probably GM in general) wants to get away from pushrod engines. I love my LS3, but I don't expect that choice to be around much longer. I think GM is the only manufacturer left who is widely using them.

M5eater
12-25-11, 10:53 PM
From a production standpoint, the LS3 (or its successor) makes the most sense. But a luxury performance sedan is not about making sense. There are rumors flying around that Cadillac (probably GM in general) wants to get away from pushrod engines. I love my LS3, but I don't expect that choice to be around much longer. I think GM is the only manufacturer left who is widely using them.
I'm pretty sure all the domestics use at least one or two Pushrods in their trucks and SUV's, but certinally GM is the last one shoving them into sedans and performance cars. Assuming gas prices don't suddenly spike another $2 (which is entirely possible these days) I expect another 20 years of life out of the SBC and pushrod technology before either the efficiency technology just can't keep up in making them easier on the wallet or F/I V6's just totally wash them out of any advantages other than the noise. We already see a little bit of that today acutally, the ecoboost for example..

JimmyH
12-25-11, 11:11 PM
I don't count truck engines. Efficiency isn't a concern there. Though I suppose that is changing these days. Ford's V8 is overhead cam, though I suppose they aren't really any more advanced than a pushrod.
But as I said, there are rumors that the powers at GM want the pushrod retired.

0AT E03
12-26-11, 11:52 AM
From a production standpoint, the LS3 (or its successor) makes the most sense. But a luxury performance sedan is not about making sense. There are rumors flying around that Cadillac (probably GM in general) wants to get away from pushrod engines. I love my LS3, but I don't expect that choice to be around much longer. I think GM is the only manufacturer left who is widely using them.

Chrysler has the HEMI as well.

rand49er
12-26-11, 12:39 PM
... There are rumors flying around that Cadillac (probably GM in general) wants to get away from pushrod engines. ...I wouldn't be surprised that it's as much of a marketing/PR thing as just plain technology advancement.

You can't deny that not having overhead valves reduces the overall height of the cylinder head (hence can have lower profile hood design) and to some extent engine weight not to mention the somewhat greater manufacturing expense of the overhead cam heads. Still, it's inevitable the distinct efficiency advantage that multiple valve per cylinder, overhead cam designs have will eventually cause them to supplant the cam-in-block designs. Marketing people probably are pushing this as much as anyone. Bean counters less so. I wonder which side of the fence the engineers are on.

M5eater
12-26-11, 02:46 PM
I don't count truck engines. Efficiency isn't a concern there. Though I suppose that is changing these days. Ford's V8 is overhead cam, though I suppose they aren't really any more advanced than a pushrod.
But as I said, there are rumors that the powers at GM want the pushrod retired.
Efficency is just as big a player in truck and SUV land as it is anywhere else. That's why when gas prices doubled truck/suv sales drove off a clif, and that's part of the reason why the ecoboost F150 is accounting for 40% of all F150 sales.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/12/24/ford-f-150-ecoboost-hits-100-000-sales/

and even more to the point;

Still more impressive is the fact that Ford also sold plenty of 3.7-liter V6 models as well, and the overall take rate of V6 engines is over 50 percent on the year.

JimmyH
12-26-11, 07:09 PM
Hey, I am quite happy with my pushrod engine. And if sales of big SUVs and pickups declined, it was everywhere but in chicago. I see brand new Tundras, F150, Silverados and Lexus, Infiniti full size suvs everywhere. And they are all driving 75 mph+. They don't seem too interested in conservation :lol:

rand49er
12-27-11, 11:09 PM
Hey, I am quite happy with my pushrod engine. And if sales of big SUVs and pickups declined, it was everywhere but in chicago. I see brand new Tundras, F150, Silverados and Lexus, Infiniti full size suvs everywhere. And they are all driving 75 mph+. They don't seem too interested in conservation :lol:Same here.

The only way (most) people are going to become concerned about saving gasoline is if they're not sure they're going to be able to fill up on their next tank. The current Administration seems to be trying to make that happen.

concorso
01-02-12, 04:22 PM
V8 for the V, unless the V6TT is significantly lighter.

JD03Cobra
01-05-12, 10:33 AM
Jason, we need to get your cousin out for a few beers one of these days.

We were watching the Michigan Sugar Bowl game the other day and he was telling me it's a 3.6L TT making over 400 HP most likely for the V model. He works on the calibrations/emissions.

concorso
01-05-12, 04:26 PM
We were watching the Michigan Sugar Bowl game the other day and he was telling me it's a 3.6L TT making over 400 HP most likely for the V model. He works on the calibrations/emissions.Is he the same guy posting on GMInsideNews? There are other people saying that theyre working on the V8 as well. I would expect GM to be working on both engines at the moment...I doubt he knows for sure which is the final choice tho...

0AT E03
01-05-12, 06:05 PM
Is he the same guy posting on GMInsideNews? There are other people saying that they're working on the V8 as well. I would expect GM to be working on both engines at the moment...I doubt he knows for sure which is the final choice tho...

Sadly for a company like GM, powertrain choices are usually not hammered down until the end. GM Powertrain lives in another world versus GM Platform Development. Sometimes powertrain decisions are made last minute.

The new Malibu launching with the 2.4L BAS+ (ECO) and having the 2.5L and 2.0T come later is due to Powertrain not being in sync with the rest of the company.

GM has a horrid record of new engines being introduced during the second and third model years.

rand49er
01-06-12, 12:18 AM
It's that kind of record that makes me think waiting a year of two for the ATS-V might mean an even better power level than 470 hp.

Of course, it's about then that Cap 'n Trade will start up, and GM will be putting out 3-cylinder Vs.

JD03Cobra
01-06-12, 10:44 AM
Is he the same guy posting on GMInsideNews? There are other people saying that theyre working on the V8 as well. I would expect GM to be working on both engines at the moment...I doubt he knows for sure which is the final choice tho...

No he's not but you and LS2 MN6 are absolutely correct. Final motor decisions come down to the last minute. I'm only reporting that a 3.6 TT is being tested and in its final stages...Also it's in the ATS car during his testing.

0AT E03
01-06-12, 05:39 PM
It's that kind of record that makes me think waiting a year of two for the ATS-V might mean an even better power level than 470 hp.

Of course, it's about then that Cap 'n Trade will start up, and GM will be putting out 3-cylinder Vs.

I think what the competition has, and the political situation will weigh heavy on whether or not you get the Turbo V6 or the V8 in the ATS-V. If GM lived in a vacuum the V8 would be a lock.

JimmyH
01-08-12, 01:57 PM
I think politics is going to reshape the automotive world over the next decade. Sadly. But I think it is going negatively affect manufacturers like BMW more, who will have to start making cars that people will buy based on their needs, rather than being based on image.

M5eater
01-08-12, 02:22 PM
I think politics is going to reshape the automotive world over the next decade. Sadly. But I think it is going negatively affect manufacturers like BMW more, who will have to start making cars that people will buy based on their needs, rather than being based on image.

I agree.. and the US is also becomming less of a centerpoint for decision making for automobiles. You can't design a car just for americans anymore, you have to think about it on a global economic scale, and while everyone can agree an american V8 is nice, I'm thinking even more would think a fuel effecient V6 in light of what the rest of the world pays in gas is even better. Which is also why I will probally be holding onto the V2 for a good long time. Dodge and Chrysler being the true exceptions, because even if Chevrolet starts selling Caprice's to the public, it's no V2. Although, I can't honestly say that I would remain V2 loyal should gas hit say, $5-6 a gallon.

concorso
01-09-12, 04:00 PM
No he's not but you and LS2 MN6 are absolutely correct. Final motor decisions come down to the last minute. I'm only reporting that a 3.6 TT is being tested and in its final stages...Also it's in the ATS car during his testing.That makes sense. Both engines should be in a few GM vehicles in the next 1 or 2 model years.

Lord Cadillac
01-13-12, 06:08 PM
We were watching the Michigan Sugar Bowl game the other day and he was telling me it's a 3.6L TT making over 400 HP most likely for the V model. He works on the calibrations/emissions.


No he's not but you and LS2 MN6 are absolutely correct. Final motor decisions come down to the last minute. I'm only reporting that a 3.6 TT is being tested and in its final stages...Also it's in the ATS car during his testing.

Have they changed plans now and decided to move forward with a 3.6 liter TT V6 as opposed to the 3.0 liter TT V6? I know there was a 3.6 TT V6 in the Ciel concept but that's supposed to be another engine altogether...

nguyennhatquang
01-14-12, 08:51 PM
Have they changed plans now and decided to move forward with a 3.6 liter TT V6 as opposed to the 3.0 liter TT V6? I know there was a 3.6 TT V6 in the Ciel concept but that's supposed to be another engine altogether...

that sound terrible..because the benz C63 AMG got 6.3 V8 and BMW M3 has V8 also..

thebigjimsho
01-14-12, 08:59 PM
that sound terrible..because the benz C63 AMG got 6.3 V8 and BMW M3 has V8 also..You know what, your posts sound terrible. Every single thing that you ever type is why can't Cadillac do this, why can't Cadillac do that? In case you haven't noticed, quang, every V series made has been extremely competitive in its segment. Sometimes it's best in segment.

And in case you haven't notices, quang, AMG is quickly going away from the NA big engines for TTV8s. The next M3 is supposed to go back to a blown 6. And Audi just announced their big A8 sedan will have a supercharged 6 cylinder engine.

So quit your whining, quang...

JimmyH
01-15-12, 02:59 PM
I am starting to get used to the idea of twin turbo 6. They seem to have it pretty well figured out now.

I still remember driving an old eagle talon tsi that felt like there was switch that turned the power on and off around 4000 rpm. It was horrible. That guy installed a turbo timer that kept his car running for 5 min when he parked. That sort of thing seems to be in the past though.

thebigjimsho
01-15-12, 11:40 PM
Turbo is so mainstream these days with so much proven technology, all that lag and those problems are a thing of the past...

M5eater
01-16-12, 10:06 AM
Turbo is so mainstream these days with so much proven technology, all that lag and those problems are a thing of the past...

yup... I can't think of any F/I turbo engine that doesn't make tons of power and torque low end these days. The ecoboost 3.5 in the 150 makes 400+ at 2500rpms for crying out loud.

JimmyH
01-16-12, 02:23 PM
My only concern with turbos is repair costs when something under hood decides to take a crap at 105000 miles.

rand49er
01-16-12, 06:09 PM
Not really having followed the reliability of today's turbos, what's really involved in their maintenance? If they have cast iron housings, they tend to get an exterior of rust which is, of course, accelerated by the heat they see. They also have an oil supply for their bearings, I believe, so those might have to be replaced at some point. There has to be BOV, but those must last a long time unless the spring lets go.

What else can there be?

JimmyH
01-16-12, 11:12 PM
I just mean a twin turbocharged, multi-valve, multi-overhead-cam and all its associated hardware versus a simple old pushrod, naturally aspirated engine. You know which one is going to be cheaper and easier to fix.

rand49er
01-17-12, 10:06 AM
I just mean a twin turbocharged, multi-valve, multi-overhead-cam and all its associated hardware versus a simple old pushrod, naturally aspirated engine. You know which one is going to be cheaper and easier to fix.Tru dat.

M5eater
01-17-12, 10:21 AM
I just mean a twin turbocharged, multi-valve, multi-overhead-cam and all its associated hardware versus a simple old pushrod, naturally aspirated engine. You know which one is going to be cheaper and easier to fix.
I don't know of any S4 owner that doesn't blow his $2-3K Turbos at some point in his ownership if they're stock. it's a fact of B5 S4 life, and the APB is wedged in there, so you have to remove the entire powertrain to swap them. That said, even 1.8T turbo failures are not heard of. If properly maintained on good oil, and stock boost they'll last 200K, and some of it is the poor design on the BW K03's, however, you absoultely can't let anything go, or neglect the engine like some POS 2.0L Neon, because I don't know of any F/I motor with turbochargers were turbo failure isn't a concern at some point.

The old 40V V8's though require very little. PITA timing chain replacements (also requires powertrain removal) are the biggest concerns, but it's not a $2-3K fix.

I hate to say it, but your concerns are legitimate, there is absolutely some truth to the idea that F/I motors have the possibility to fail more often. Will it be a problem in a ATS-V? I don't think so, even the lease's are going to get on-time oil changes and warranty fixes. On some sonic or ultra-compact with a tiny 1.4T, I'd be more cautious.

thebigjimsho
01-17-12, 10:46 AM
Not really having followed the reliability of today's turbos, what's really involved in their maintenance? If they have cast iron housings, they tend to get an exterior of rust which is, of course, accelerated by the heat they see. They also have an oil supply for their bearings, I believe, so those might have to be replaced at some point. There has to be BOV, but those must last a long time unless the spring lets go.

What else can there be?

No to BOV. The Ecoboosts don't have them...

M5eater
01-17-12, 10:51 AM
No to BOV. The Ecoboosts don't have them...
Thank god..
They have a valve, but it's a BPV. It doesn't vent into the atmopshere, it recirculates it into the system. Audi and VW have used this kind of setup for years. Leave the turkey noises to the Civic's, Evo's and STi's. If they're even more like Audi/VW it's a diaphragm, not a spring and piston.

JimmyH
01-17-12, 03:22 PM
I don't know of any S4 owner that doesn't blow his $2-3K Turbos at some point in his ownership if they're stock. it's a fact of B5 S4 life, and the APB is wedged in there, so you have to remove the entire powertrain to swap them. That said, even 1.8T turbo failures are not heard of. If properly maintained on good oil, and stock boost they'll last 200K, and some of it is the poor design on the BW K03's, however, you absoultely can't let anything go, or neglect the engine like some POS 2.0L Neon, because I don't know of any F/I motor with turbochargers were turbo failure isn't a concern at some point.

The old 40V V8's though require very little. PITA timing chain replacements (also requires powertrain removal) are the biggest concerns, but it's not a $2-3K fix.

I hate to say it, but your concerns are legitimate, there is absolutely some truth to the idea that F/I motors have the possibility to fail more often. Will it be a problem in a ATS-V? I don't think so, even the lease's are going to get on-time oil changes and warranty fixes. On some sonic or ultra-compact with a tiny 1.4T, I'd be more cautious.

None of that's a problem if you trade your car before 100k. But what if you decide to keep it? 100k miles is 3.5 years for me. I plan to keep my Camaro for at least 5 years.

Shutup James.

M5eater
01-17-12, 04:38 PM
None of that's a problem if you trade your car before 100k. But what if you decide to keep it? 100k miles is 3.5 years for me. I plan to keep my Camaro for at least 5 years.

Shutup James.

being a little proactive I see? :D

thebigjimsho
01-17-12, 05:47 PM
wut?

JimmyH
01-17-12, 08:35 PM
He actually listened to me :lol:

rand49er
01-17-12, 10:07 PM
So, the BPV just allows the excess exhaust pressure to route around the turbo and on downstream?

nguyennhatquang
01-26-12, 12:43 AM
You know what, your posts sound terrible. Every single thing that you ever type is why can't Cadillac do this, why can't Cadillac do that? In case you haven't noticed, quang, every V series made has been extremely competitive in its segment. Sometimes it's best in segment.

And in case you haven't notices, quang, AMG is quickly going away from the NA big engines for TTV8s. The next M3 is supposed to go back to a blown 6. And Audi just announced their big A8 sedan will have a supercharged 6 cylinder engine.

So quit your whining, quang...

so that is your expect from a Luxury manufacturer alway say we're the starndart of the world ? if you can't do that..you shouldnt say that..it sound ridiculous
A manufacturer need to compare with the other manufacturer to make them better.
the new benz now has Twinturbo V8 in the new CLS and S car line soon..sooner or later the C-class will offer it also.

i agree you're a Cadillac Fan..and So am i..and of course a Custommer also...

the V we own now is Extremly nice for its segment, i completely agree with you. That is the reason i take a lot of compare before purchance car... but the ATS..we haven't know yet..it just a photo.. No one have test it yet..Hasn't you ?.. and as i remember, first time when i ask the forum about the CTS-V, i found the Interiol of the CTS-V is extremly nice, but no, it is a concept and the Production model is not nice like that. BUt i accept, because at that price, you can't find anything better than it.
IMO i still prefer Supercharger over turbo...turbo car burn oil and lag. My audi before lag a lot..don't know what the best tech it offer like it Advertising but 1.8 TSI doesn't sound nice like it is. i still prefer drive my 2003 Benz with superchargerrather than the 1.8 TSI which i already sold....

i can warranty with u, i saw a lot of guy in my country race Z06 N/A or ZR1 SC and 911 turbo..Vette beat 911 all day long.. Even the same HP, the V8 alway stronger than H6 in low end torque + supercharger alway pump air in every RPM...or whatever BMW u bring to race with it.... i think the reason they use turbo because it cheaper to manufacturer than supercharger.

the Mercedes S-class or Audi, maybe only in USA it doesn't have V6 cylinder. In my country or EU or China, a lot and a lot of Mercedes S320, S350, S280 CDI. from old to new. And the Audi is not an exception, they has V6 long time ago.

You're fan of Cadillac, i agree but have u even think in your mine..why Cadillac before is no1 in USA and in other country is the first choice after the other brand... but now, it sound terrible, even In the USA, Lexus outsell the Cadillac...
and People Bring Cadillac to compare with Lexus.. :banghead:....and Cadillac car worth less when it used ? why ? the first Lexus LS400 was born for fighting with E-class and Normal cadillac..and now Where is it at ?
if u are a good fan, a real ethusiast, i hope u should donate your opinion and hope they listen..rather than..oh oh cadillac is best ..or bla bla bla...

M5eater
01-26-12, 08:35 AM
So, the BPV just allows the excess exhaust pressure to route around the turbo and on downstream?
yes. Instead of venting into the atomosphere, it recirculates.

thebigjimsho
01-26-12, 09:27 AM
My head hurts.

0AT E03
01-26-12, 11:17 AM
Dude said what?

Lord Cadillac
01-26-12, 02:48 PM
I don't know a second language at all, so...

I understand what he's saying very clearly.

0AT E03
01-26-12, 04:12 PM
Oh, that makes more sense.

I bet I sound like that in German.

HansK
01-27-12, 12:02 PM
Dude said what?

I stopped reading his posts after the first couple posts, I just read people's replies to get basic understanding of his 'argument'

GM-4-LIFE
01-30-12, 03:49 PM
I won't buy an ATS-V, UNLESS it gets a V8!

rand49er
02-04-12, 07:16 PM
Nothing new to post, just thinking that this reminds me of a few years ago with all the speculation that went into the powerplant and hp rating that the V2 was going to have. Hardly anyone speculated that it would be as high as 556 hp ... we were rather pleased to put it mildly.

My point is, it was lots of fun tossing out numbers just as it is now. Anticipation. That's what made it fun. Just like now. It's going to be good, we just don't know how good.

69mets
02-04-12, 10:07 PM
Looking at the ATS on the display stand at the Philly auto show on friday I just can't see a V8 being put into it. Not with all the other competitors downsizing their engines. But the pre-production review in the March Car and Driver mentions a Corvette V8 will fit. I think GM hasn't decided yet. BTW, the ATS look great in person, much better than the photos.

0AT E03
02-05-12, 02:27 AM
The ATS most assuredly fits with the SBC V8. The TT V6 is actually physically larger than the SBC V8.

rand49er
02-05-12, 08:54 AM
... The TT V6 is actually physically larger than the SBC V8.I'd believe it.

Packaging is probably one of the reasons the SBC V8 has stayed around this long. Take the cam(s) out of the block and put them on top of the heads plus all the FI plumbing and you're bumping into the envelope.

Lord Cadillac
02-05-12, 11:24 AM
I may have already mentioned this but since the 3.6 liter directed injected V6 is going to compete with the 335i, there's not going to be a TT V6 in a regular ATS - so I'm almost positive it'll be going into the ATS-V. There's really no need for a V8 here but I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see one.

M5eater
02-05-12, 12:48 PM
I may have already mentioned this but since the 3.6 liter directed injected V6 is going to compete with the 335i, there's not going to be a TT V6 in a regular ATS - so I'm almost positive it'll be going into the ATS-V. There's really no need for a V8 here but I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see one.

Honestly? That really sucks. the N55 and N54 are such good engines stock and they have large aftermarket. Sticking with a N/A V6 ensures aftermarket for the ATS will be limited to the V and 2.0T..

0AT E03
02-05-12, 01:04 PM
Honestly? That really sucks. the N55 and N54 are such good engines stock and they have large aftermarket. Sticking with a N/A V6 ensures aftermarket for the ATS will be limited to the V and 2.0T..

The 2.0T is going to be the performance car. 270 HP with a 6-Speed Manual, The extra 50 HP of the V6 will easily be overcome with the aftermarket.

The 2.0T is where it is at.

Lord Cadillac
02-05-12, 01:15 PM
Honestly? That really sucks. the N55 and N54 are such good engines stock and they have large aftermarket. Sticking with a N/A V6 ensures aftermarket for the ATS will be limited to the V and 2.0T..

They could certainly put the 400+ horsepower TT V6 in a non-V ATS but that would compete closely with the M3. What would the ATS-V compete with then? It would be way overkill for the M3 and not a hell of a lot better than the TT ATS - which would be easily modified faster than the ATS-V.

----------




The 2.0T is going to be the performance car. 270 HP with a 6-Speed Manual, The extra 50 HP of the V6 will easily be overcome with the aftermarket.

The 2.0T is where it is at.

I believe that. There will surely be ways to boost that engine up to around 400 horsepower or so.

JimmyH
02-05-12, 02:23 PM
I think most of us want a V8 ATS-V. And I think we must accept we are probably not going to get one.

Lord Cadillac
02-05-12, 02:38 PM
I think most of us want a V8 ATS-V. And I think we must accept we are probably not going to get one.

Hopefully GM's TT V6 turns out to be a winner. A high performance TT V6 Camaro has been in the plans for at least five years so I'm sure they've been testing it a long time. I wish I knew what the latest delays are all about.

JimmyH
02-05-12, 02:44 PM
Maybe they know how many buyers are going to tune it and they are trying to decide what to do about the drivetrain.

Lord Cadillac
02-05-12, 03:06 PM
Maybe they know how many buyers are going to tune it and they are trying to decide what to do about the drivetrain.

Maybe. If even one model will be very tunable than even the 2.5 will sell being its an enthusiast car that everybody has to have.

rand49er
02-05-12, 06:12 PM
Probably too much to ask for, but it would be interesting to imagine a TT 3.6 in the ATS-V, and a supercharged V8 in an ATS-VR, the latter being a limited production halo car.

Okay, back to reality ...

Lord Cadillac
02-05-12, 06:34 PM
Probably too much to ask for, but it would be interesting to imagine a TT 3.6 in the ATS-V, and a supercharged V8 in an ATS-VR, the latter being a limited production halo car.

Okay, back to reality ...

Like Mercedes AMG "black", I guess...

M5eater
02-05-12, 06:36 PM
Like Mercedes AMG "black", I guess...

exactly, minus the $132K price tag. I'd be willing to spend $70-80K for an ATS-V 'black' edition.

youknooow
02-06-12, 07:34 AM
From a production standpoint, the LS3 (or its successor) makes the most sense. But a luxury performance sedan is not about making sense. There are rumors flying around that Cadillac (probably GM in general) wants to get away from pushrod engines. I love my LS3, but I don't expect that choice to be around much longer. I think GM is the only manufacturer left who is widely using them.

Bently as well.

M5eater
02-06-12, 08:41 AM
Bently as well.

and Dodge, and Chrysler.

rand49er
02-06-12, 04:53 PM
Probably wrong thead to post this, but it was pretty cool seeing the ATS ad GM ran in the Super Bowl last night. Could've sworn both those inside tires were off the pavement during the slo-mo part.

HansK
02-06-12, 05:49 PM
Probably wrong thead to post this, but it was pretty cool seeing the ATS ad GM ran in the Super Bowl last night. Could've sworn both those inside tires were off the pavement during that the slo-mo part.

They were, I enjoyed everyone's reaction to it. I like seeing people think of a Cadillac as "basass" way more than dealing with the "that's an old man car" reaction.

M5eater
02-06-12, 06:24 PM
They were, I enjoyed everyone's reaction to it. I like seeing people think of a Cadillac as "basass" way more than dealing with the "that's an old man car" reaction.

you can go to green hell!!


o wait.. sorry, it's my jerk reaction anytime someone mentions Cadillac and badass in the same sentence.

V locity
02-08-12, 11:39 PM
Just found this article... Looks interesting:


http://www.lsxtv.com/news/cadillac-ats-and-ats-v-spec-sheets-for-real/

rand49er
02-09-12, 10:08 AM
Just found this article... Looks interesting:


http://www.lsxtv.com/news/cadillac-ats-and-ats-v-spec-sheets-for-real/The 6.2 with 470 hp was one of the first motors to be speculated as being in the ATS-V. Not that we all wouldn't drool over this one, this is actually old news.

M5eater
02-09-12, 12:04 PM
Just found this article... Looks interesting:


http://www.lsxtv.com/news/cadillac-ats-and-ats-v-spec-sheets-for-real/

The date is January 19 2011 :P

rand49er
02-09-12, 02:02 PM
The date is January 19 2011 :PWhere did the last year go ... indeed?!!

concorso
02-09-12, 03:09 PM
exactly, minus the $132K price tag. I'd be willing to spend $70-80K for an ATS-V 'black' edition.This is what Id really be interested it. Adjustable aerodynamics would be nice, maybe adjustable sway bars, along with the Magnaride. Wider lighter wheels with optional Pilot Sport Cups so that were guaranteed a stock sized tire. Lightweight seats, optional rear seat delete with some extra bracing, a whole heap of fakesuede, some extra track based electronics if the regular ATS-V doesnt have, maybe even some CF bits.
It would also be a good model to introduce a new DCT as well. Optional diff/trans cooling as well.

rand49er
02-09-12, 06:04 PM
This is what Id really be interested it. Adjustable aerodynamics would be nice, maybe adjustable sway bars, along with the Magnaride. Wider lighter wheels with optional Pilot Sport Cups so that were guaranteed a stock sized tire. Lightweight seats, optional rear seat delete with some extra bracing, a whole heap of fakesuede, some extra track based electronics if the regular ATS-V doesnt have, maybe even some CF bits.
It would also be a good model to introduce a new DCT as well. Optional diff/trans cooling as well.i.e. a dedicated track car ... that just so happens to be street legal ... and, has a warranty. :thumbsup:

JimmyH
02-09-12, 06:18 PM
That sounds alot like a Mustang to me. It wouldn't be surprising to see such a car when the Camaro starts on Alpha.

70eldo
02-16-12, 10:27 AM
Since the next gen Camaro will be on Alpha, wouln'd it be likely to see the same engine palette throughout the Alpha series?
I wouldn't even be surprised to see the 2.0L Turbo going into the Alpha CTS as base engine.
And therefore also a V8 for the ATS-V...?
The 3.0TT will finally be a gapfiller between 3.6 and V people have been asking about since CTS gen1. ATS/CTS sport? I mean, between 320 and 560hp is a whole world in which the competition offers models as well. At least for the CTS. The next F10 540i (and F12 640i, F01 740i) will be a 350hp 3.0L 6cil TT.

Although, I understood BMW F30 M3 will go 3.5L 6cil TT?

Another NTK is the M5 diesel!

Anyway, to get a picture of the BMW competition:


1-series (F20)
-3-door
-5-door
-Touring
-Coupé
-Cabrio and
-GT
Petrol (only Turbos!):
115i, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 100 PS
116i, 1,2 Liter, 3-cil, 125 PS
118i, 1,2 Liter, 3-cil, 150 PS
120i, 1,6 Liter, 4-cil , 175 PS
123i, 1,6 Liter, 4-cil, 200 PS
125i, 2,0 Liter, 4-cil , 225 PS
128i, 2,0 Liter, 4-cil, 250 PS
130i, 2,0 Liter, 4-cil, 275 PS
135i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
M1, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
Diesel:
115d, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 100 PS
116d, 1,2 Liter, 3-cil, 125 PS
118d, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
120d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
123d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
125d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
130d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS

3-series (F30)
-Sedan
-Coupé
-Cabrio
-Touring and
-GT
Petrol (only Turbos!):
316i, 1,2 Liter, 3-cil, 125 PS
318i, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
320i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
323i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
325i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
328i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
330i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
335i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
340i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
M3, 3,5 Liter, 6-Cil, 450 PS
Diesel:
316d, 1,2 Liter, 3-cil, 125 PS
318d, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
320d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
323d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
325d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
330d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 250 PS
335d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS

5-series (F10) LCI
Sedan and Touring
Petrol (only Turbos!):
520i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
523i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
525i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
528i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
530i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
535i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
540i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
545i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 410 PS
550i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 470 PS
M5, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 580 PS
Diesel:
520d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
523d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
525d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
530d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 250 PS
535d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
540d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 340 PS

6-series (F12)
Cabrio, Coupé and GranCoupe
Petrol (only Turbos):
630i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 275 PS
635i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
640i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
645i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 410 PS
650i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 470 PS
M6, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 580 PS
Diesel:
635d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
640d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 340 PS

7-series (F01) LCI
Petrol (only Turbos):
725i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
728i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
730i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 275 PS
735i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
740i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
745i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 410 PS
750i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 470 PS
760i, 6,0 Liter, 12-Cil, 550 PS
M7, 6,0 Liter, 12-Cil, 650 PS
Diesel:
725d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
730d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 250 PS
735d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
740d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 340 PS

X1 (E84) LCI
Petrol (only Turbos):
x18i, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
x20i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
x23i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
x25i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
x28i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
x30i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
x35i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
x1M, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS

Diesel:
x18d, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
x20d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
x23d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
x25d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
x30d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS

X3 (F25)
Petrol (only Turbos):
x18i, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
x20i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
x23i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
x25i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
x28i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
x30i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
x35i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
x40i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
X3M, 3,5 Liter, 6-Cil, 450 PS
Diesel:
x18d, 1,2 Liter, 3-Cil, 150 PS
x20d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
x23d, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
x25d, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
x30d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 250 PS
x35d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS

X5 (F35)
Petrol (only Turbos):
x30i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
x35i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
x40i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
x45i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 410 PS
x50i, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 470 PS
X5M, 4,4 Liter, 8-Cil, 555 PS
Diesel:
x30d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 250 PS
x35d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 300 PS
x40d, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 340 PS

Z4 (E89) LCI
s20i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 175 PS
s23i, 1,6 Liter, 4-Cil, 200 PS
s25i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 225 PS
s28i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 250 PS
s30i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 275 PS
s35i, 2,0 Liter, 4-Cil, 300 PS
s40i, 3,0 Liter, 6-Cil, 350 PS
Z4M, 3,5 Liter, 6-Cil, 450 PS

thebigjimsho
02-16-12, 01:40 PM
My eyes!

0AT E03
02-16-12, 07:16 PM
Engine choices are simple for the ATS and the CTS as well.

The ATS as we know has:

2.5L I4 - 205 HP
2.0T I4 - 270 HP
3.6L V6 - 320 HP
6.2L V8 - 470-480 HP (V-series) - my guess

The CTS will logically have:

2.0T I4 - 270 HP
3.6L V6 - 320 HP
3.0TT V6 - 370-400 HP - I think there are two TT's the LF3 (a 3.0) and the LF4 (a 3.6). The LF4 I think is a 2016, while the LF3 is a 2014 Engine.
6.2L SC - 550-600 HP - V-Series

I'm thinking the Alpha Camaro is going to ditch a V6. I mean they almost did it with the Zeta Camaro, and with the LTG (2.0T) putting down 270 HP there is NO NEED to have an NA V6. So that would make the Alpha Camaro:

2.0T I4 - 270 HP
6.2L V6 - 470-480 HP

If they do another ZL1
6.2L SC - 550-600 HP

Assuming the Alpha Camaro isn't ugly, I'd buy a 2.0T Camaro with a 6-speed (TR3160 please).

JimmyH
02-17-12, 01:55 PM
You would think with the 335i having a detuned turbo6, Cadillac would do the same for the ATS. If they truly want to go head to head with BMW, that is what they need to do. ATS Standard, performance, premium, and add a new tier with the turbo6. Then the V with a V8.

As for the Camaro, there are plenty of LT guys who are into modding. I don't think GM was prepared for that. So it would make sense to give them the 2.0T if it's going to be as tune-able as everyone is claiming. But, it will HAVE to sound GOOD. Those guys won't buy a Camaro if it has that old-school 4-banger soundtrack.

rand49er
02-17-12, 09:17 PM
... that is what they need to do. ATS Standard, performance, premium, and add a new tier with the turbo6. Then the V with a V8. ...Me likey!

JimmyH
02-17-12, 09:25 PM
Too bad we don't live in the same state. We could buy one and share custody. Win-win.

M5eater
02-18-12, 11:10 AM
You would think with the 335i having a detuned turbo6, Cadillac would do the same for the ATS. If they truly want to go head to head with BMW, that is what they need to do. ATS Standard, performance, premium, and add a new tier with the turbo6. Then the V with a V8.

As for the Camaro, there are plenty of LT guys who are into modding. I don't think GM was prepared for that. So it would make sense to give them the 2.0T if it's going to be as tune-able as everyone is claiming. But, it will HAVE to sound GOOD. Those guys won't buy a Camaro if it has that old-school 4-banger soundtrack.

Agreed, and it doesn't take a lot of effort. hell my old 1.8T 5V sounded like a much beefier engine than it actually was.

Stingroo
02-18-12, 02:12 PM
I see a flaw in your numbers. There's no way the Alpha Camaro will have 270hp as the base engine. It'll have to be 300+ just because that's what the Mustang is doing (and the current Camaro).

youknooow
02-18-12, 03:33 PM
Same here.

The only way (most) people are going to become concerned about saving gasoline is if they're not sure they're going to be able to fill up on their next tank. The current Administration seems to be trying to make that happen.

Right by forming an agreement with the auto manufacturers to increase corporate fuel economies, con't support for the auto bailouts – saving jobs and a positive impact on the economy, yup this administration doesn’t want people to be able to fill up their tanks, man give me a break.

0AT E03
02-18-12, 07:14 PM
I see a flaw in your numbers. There's no way the Alpha Camaro will have 270hp as the base engine. It'll have to be 300+ just because that's what the Mustang is doing (and the current Camaro).

I think by 2016 this won't be the case.

You will need a high FE "base" to offset the V8 cars.

rand49er
02-18-12, 09:35 PM
Right by forming an agreement with the auto manufacturers to increase corporate fuel economies, con't support for the auto bailouts – saving jobs and a positive impact on the economy, yup this administration doesn’t want people to be able to fill up their tanks, man give me a break.Saving jobs maybe, but that was about votes. Turning down Keystone, wasting money on Solyndra, raising the tax credit for electric cars, burning up millions supporting flawed climate models ... hardly showing a desire to fill tanks. Plus, the auto bailout was about votes, nothing more. Auto industry had no choice in new FE standards. Is complete fiscal irresponsibility filling up tanks?

There's your break.

JimmyH
02-18-12, 09:41 PM
I would bet if camaro lt goes to 270 ford will follow suit with the mustang.

70eldo
02-19-12, 10:38 AM
You would think with the 335i having a detuned turbo6, Cadillac would do the same for the ATS. If they truly want to go head to head with BMW, that is what they need to do. ATS Standard, performance, premium, and add a new tier with the turbo6. Then the V with a V8.

As for the Camaro, there are plenty of LT guys who are into modding. I don't think GM was prepared for that. So it would make sense to give them the 2.0T if it's going to be as tune-able as everyone is claiming. But, it will HAVE to sound GOOD. Those guys won't buy a Camaro if it has that old-school 4-banger soundtrack.

But the 335i will get an "up-turbo'ed" 2.0L pushing 300hp...

JimmyH
02-19-12, 01:33 PM
Meh, who cares. I have my SS. Once I get something as a daily driver to replace it, the modding shall begin and everything from a 318i to M3 shall be seeing nothing by my taillights and exhaust tips...

thebigjimsho
02-19-12, 04:10 PM
But the 335i will get an "up-turbo'ed" 2.0L pushing 300hp...

Again, where are you getting this? I think you just don't care to examine anything.

The 335i will have a 6 cyl engine, still. Period.

70eldo
02-20-12, 07:58 PM
Again, where are you getting this? I think you just don't care to examine anything.

The 335i will have a 6 cyl engine, still. Period.

You are right for now. But it is not period. Just wait and see.
;)

thebigjimsho
02-21-12, 09:11 AM
You are right for now. But it is not period. Just wait and see.
;)

The 335i WILL have a turbo 6. The 328i WILL have the turbo 4. What is so hard to understand?

f2000keith
09-29-12, 02:16 AM
It's going to be a 6. It's too bad because an 8 would have been awesome.

Chubbilicious420
10-03-12, 10:42 PM
If it doesnt get a V8 I will be getting a V wagon or more probably a E550 or a 300 srt8 when I trade my 120K V in.

f2000keith
10-03-12, 11:46 PM
Aside from what my instructor said, I'm guessing it won't. One of the selling points of the ATS with the 3.6 is a 50/50 weight balance. An 8 would hose that up and throw off the handling of the car. I can't blame you for getting a V wagon though. That's badass! When I was on track with one, being in a station wagon was the farthest thing from my mind when driving it.

JimmyH
10-04-12, 01:58 PM
It has nothing to do with balance. The LS V8s actually weigh less than a 3.6DI (LS3=350lbs, LLT=370 lbs, LFX probably a little lighter). What weighs more is the transmission and powertrain, but that's distributed along the length of the car. There is one simple reason why the ATS-V is going to get a turbo 6; because the M3, its target, is going to have one.

Jinx
10-08-12, 02:10 PM
The M3 is not going to have a turbo V6; it's going to have a turbo I6. Huge difference.

JimmyH
10-08-12, 02:29 PM
No one said the M3 was going to have a turbo V6. We said "turbo 6."
Regardless, who cares. An inline 6 does not run on magic dust like BMW would have you believe. It's an internal combustion engine. Nothing more.

Jinx
10-08-12, 02:53 PM
If no one cares about the difference between a turbo V6 and a turbo I6, why would the difference between a turbo I6 and a NA V8 be a problem? Your "one simple reason" doesn't really make sense.

M5eater
10-08-12, 03:37 PM
If no one cares about the difference between a turbo V6 and a turbo I6, why would the difference between a turbo I6 and a NA V8 be a problem? Your "one simple reason" doesn't really make sense.

The difference between an all-new TT V6 or all-new TT I6 is essentially ease of working on the thing and natural balance.

The difference between an 6 and SBC is 60 years of V8 development, and 15 years of LS aftermarket .

a SBC V8 ATS would be an *instant* hot-rod sedan. One that would totally, and completly, take over the M3 for the younger tuner crowd.

an I6/V6 would sort of just 'be keeping up with the Germans' so to speak(even though the B8 RS4 has a 4.2).

The CTS-V is a perfect example of this. Both generations *easily* eclipsing the aftermarket support of any german super sedan, and they are freaking tweaner cars!

You're also considering the implied reliability of an established platform (the SBC) and the linear powerband a N/A engine provides.

There's also the noise consideration...

JimmyH
10-08-12, 04:33 PM
If no one cares about the difference between a turbo V6 and a turbo I6, why would the difference between a turbo I6 and a NA V8 be a problem? Your "one simple reason" doesn't really make sense.

"one simple reason"?? I do not understand what you mean.

A handful of enthusiasts might understand the the difference between an inline 6 and a V6. Most buyers will not.
Other than the ravings of a bunch of auto journalists, what evidence have you that BMW's inline 6 is better than GM's V6? It's BMW being brilliant at marketing (we'll underrate our engines so everyone compares our "weaker" engines to the competition and think they are magical because they are just as powerful) I'll give them that.

simgolfer
10-08-12, 04:43 PM
BMW does inline 6 engines because they're good at them and they have a long history with them. Most manufacturers including the domestics, gave up on them generations ago. GM has similar expertise and history with the small block V8 and should stick with it even if just in specialty vehicles in the future. Cult followers for both camps.

thebigjimsho
10-09-12, 08:57 AM
"one simple reason"?? I do not understand what you mean.

A handful of enthusiasts might understand the the difference between an inline 6 and a V6. Most buyers will not.
Other than the ravings of a bunch of auto journalists, what evidence have you that BMW's inline 6 is better than GM's V6? It's BMW being brilliant at marketing (we'll underrate our engines so everyone compares our "weaker" engines to the competition and think they are magical because they are just as powerful) I'll give them that.

I'd take BMW's I6 over any V6 anyday...

M5eater
10-09-12, 10:21 AM
BMW does inline 6 engines because they're good at them and they have a long history with them. Most manufacturers including the domestics, gave up on them generations ago. GM has similar expertise and history with the small block V8 and should stick with it even if just in specialty vehicles in the future. Cult followers for both camps.

uhh.. The LL8 Atlas in the Chevrolet Blazer was an I6, it was a ward's 10 best engines from 02-05. That was a wonderful engine, infact it got a mid-model refresh and made 291 HP (the Small Block V8 Blazer only made 308) . No idea why they canned it or excluded it to a freaking SUV. Maybe the package was too large, I don't know. However, they sold 1.5million of the things.

And the Slant 6 in the jeeps were being made up until very recently when they finnally ditched them for V6's for the fuel economy. People worship those engines like they're gods.

Maybe you're referring to their use in passenger vehicles?

JimmyH
10-09-12, 01:52 PM
I'd take BMW's I6 over any V6 anyday...

There's alot of things you would take that don't make any sense.

----------


uhh.. The LL8 Atlas in the Chevrolet Blazer was an I6, it was a ward's 10 best engines from 02-05. That was a wonderful engine, infact it got a mid-model refresh and made 291 HP (the Small Block V8 Blazer only made 308) . No idea why they canned it or excluded it to a freaking SUV. Maybe the package was too large, I don't know. However, they sold 1.5million of the things.

And the Slant 6 in the jeeps were being made up until very recently when they finnally ditched them for V6's for the fuel economy. People worship those engines like they're gods.

Maybe you're referring to their use in passenger vehicles?


they say packaging an inline 6 in a compact engine bay is a nightmare. Probably why bmw cost so much to service; there's no room to get at parts of the engine.
but I would bet that's why GM and chrysler only used those engines in SUVs with bigger engine bays.

Jinx
10-09-12, 10:37 PM
There is one simple reason why the ATS-V is going to get a turbo 6; because the M3, its target, is going to have one.


"one simple reason"?? I do not understand what you mean.

You said it. I don't understand what you mean. Are you simply pointing out what a (dumb) GM will probably do and use as an excuse, or are you saying it's also a good idea?


A handful of enthusiasts might understand the the difference between an inline 6 and a V6. Most buyers will not.

M3 is an enthusiast's car.


Other than the ravings of a bunch of auto journalists, what evidence have you that BMW's inline 6 is better than GM's V6? It's BMW being brilliant at marketing (we'll underrate our engines so everyone compares our "weaker" engines to the competition and think they are magical because they are just as powerful) I'll give them that.

What evidence have you that GM's turbo V6 is better than BMW's inline 6? It doesn't exist yet.
And you acknowledge that BMW's inline six has marketing cachet.
In light of these two facts, how can one advocate a turbo V6 as anything but a crazy and needless risk for the ATS-V?

.Jinx
V8, sale. No V8, no sale.

Lord Cadillac
10-10-12, 02:58 AM
Unfortunately, the ATS-V is not going to have a V8. Might as well not hate each other arguing over what's better. Me? Personally? I like the I6 over V6 for natural balance - as mentioned. However, JimmyH has a good point in regards to room in the engine bay. The twin turbo V6 ATS-V and twin turbo I6 M3 will perform very closely. The ATS-V will have a much nicer interior.

JimmyH
10-13-12, 04:51 PM
Where's D3? You guys ready for an atsv engine transplant? :D

Lord Cadillac
10-13-12, 07:24 PM
Where's D3? You guys ready for an atsv engine transplant? :D

When you come down here next month you can tell me if my little twin turbo V6 doesn't replace anything you could want in a V8 besides exhaust note. :D

JimmyH
10-13-12, 11:46 PM
Lord Cadillac rockin the Audi :nono: oops :D

Lord Cadillac
10-14-12, 12:38 PM
Lord Cadillac rockin the Audi :nono: oops :D

Yeah, remember what I paid for it while you're mashing the pedal and mushing into the driver's seat. :p

thebigjimsho
10-14-12, 09:10 PM
When you come down here next month you can tell me if my little twin turbo V6 doesn't replace anything you could want in a V8 besides exhaust note. :D

Troublemaker.

JimmyH
10-14-12, 11:18 PM
he's the king of troublemaking

thebigjimsho
10-15-12, 11:51 PM
And the king of free martinis...

lunarx
10-18-12, 01:26 PM
Unfortunately, the ATS-V is not going to have a V8. Might as well not hate each other arguing over what's better. Me? ...... The twin turbo V6 ATS-V and twin turbo I6 M3 will perform very closely. The ATS-V will have a much nicer interior.
If that's true, you are effectively saying there will not be an ATS-V.
Maybey they should call it the ATS-U for underperforming.
A killer V is in the bag, I hope they don't screw it up and go U on us trying to be clever.

Jinx
10-18-12, 02:44 PM
I think ATS-Y is a better name -- Y U NO USE V8?

JimmyH
10-18-12, 04:32 PM
It's a brave new world.

rand49er
10-19-12, 12:17 PM
A bit late, but just one quick comment on the the V-6 vs I-6 debate.

The I-6, while it may have some packaging issues with respect to its length, is a naturally-balanced configuration with two cylinders always at 120 deg to each of the other two pairs making counterbalancing a bit easier and a very smooth motor. Not saying the V-6 can't be smooth, just that it takes a little more effort on the part of the designers.

Lord Cadillac
10-19-12, 02:42 PM
If that's true, you are effectively saying there will not be an ATS-V.
Maybey they should call it the ATS-U for underperforming.
A killer V is in the bag, I hope they don't screw it up and go U on us trying to be clever.

The ATS-V doesn't need to beat anything but the M3 and it doesn't need a V8 to do that. Cadillac is trying to stay away from V8s in all but it's most expensive LARGE vehicles. The last thing that some executives in the company want to see happen is a V6 Escalade and full-size, premium flagship. In order to do that, they're keeping V8s out of everything else but the CTS-V (the only exception to the rule and even THAT wasn't easy to accomplish). If the M5 ever gets a turbo V6, Cadillac will surely follow suit.

The M3 will have around 430 horsepower. The only way the ATS-V is getting a V8 is if they can't bring the twin turbo V6 to the table in time.

lunarx
10-19-12, 03:38 PM
The ATS-V doesn't need to beat anything but the M3 and it doesn't need a V8 to do that. Cadillac is trying to stay away from V8s in all but it's most expensive LARGE vehicles. The last thing that some executives in the company want to see happen is a V6 Escalade and full-size, premium flagship. In order to do that, they're keeping V8s out of everything else but the CTS-V (the only exception to the rule and even THAT wasn't easy to accomplish). If the M5 ever gets a turbo V6, Cadillac will surely follow suit.

The M3 will have around 430 horsepower. The only way the ATS-V is getting a V8 is if they can't bring the twin turbo V6 to the table in time.

News Flash, M3's are slow (although with very good handling).
Underachieving because they want to aim low is not going to earn GM any respect.

The ATS-V, as an Expensive Small High-Performance car, is worthy of a V8 as much as any large expensive car.
A V8 would make it an epic performance car with huge tuning potential.
A V6-TT would make it something that becomes quickly obsolete.

I'm really surprized to hear people on this forum are willing to settle for mediocrity, when perfection is so easily attainable with proven technology.

You might have inside information, regarding the V6-TT, I am dissapointed if what you say is true.
Although GM could still get it right, right?
Is there any hope left?

Jinx
10-19-12, 04:11 PM
Cadillac is trying to stay away from V8s in all but it's most expensive LARGE vehicles.

Then executives at the company have the craniums up their keisters. Yeah, I get the long-term. Sure, develop a powerful turbo V6. Put it in the next CTS in a model that slots below the CTS-V (and fill that product gap). But the ATS-V is a performance niche, not a mainstream product. Its impact on CAFE is negligible no matter what's under the hood -- but its impact on the brand is devastating if it stumbles. In some ways it needs to be more conservative, not more radical. Prove the TTV6's mettle elsewhere, then drop a hotter version in the A when it's not such a huge leap of faith.

Then again, the XLR-V and STS-V had such a huge impact on the brand, and the turbo SRX sold like hotcakes...

Lord Cadillac
10-19-12, 05:29 PM
News Flash, M3's are slow (although with very good handling).
Underachieving because they want to aim low is not going to earn GM any respect.

The ATS-V, as an Expensive Small High-Performance car, is worthy of a V8 as much as any large expensive car.
A V8 would make it an epic performance car with huge tuning potential.
A V6-TT would make it something that becomes quickly obsolete.

Cadillac wants to compete with the big guys and does want to be on top of the world - but that isn't going to happen over night. They're aiming for the M3 with the ATS-V. If all goes well, maybe they'll aim higher in the future. One step at a time.

How is the 335i obsolete? The turbo straight six at BMW has a ton of aftermarket support and now that a similar engine is going into the M3, it'll have even more.

"No V8" is not "in cement" at this point in time but more people inside Cadillac want the TT V6 than the V8 and from what I hear, nobody is presenting valid arguments for the V8.

CAN they fit a V8? Sure. Sure, they can probably bring us an ATS-V with 600 horsepower. But that's overkill for the goal. A V8 is always an option if BMW or other competition pulls something stronger out of their sleeve...

lunarx
10-19-12, 06:39 PM
There really is no such thing as overkill when it comes to performance.
Who here wants cheap easy HP taken off the table?

Honestly, I'm not surprized that GM is hoping to con us into accepting a lesser engine, instead of the real thing.
They probably hope it will tank, as I bet most insiders at GM don't even want a V Series.
Also, aftermarket tuning potential would not be one of their concerns either.
Aren't fast cars adolescent and irresponsible?

It's just sad they are going back to their practice of aiming low instead of going for the kill.
There is no excuse when they have the star engine sitting on the shelf screaming to be put in the game.
I have a problem buying into a half hearted ATS-V effort.

Lord Cadillac
10-19-12, 07:59 PM
There really is no such thing as overkill when it comes to performance.
Who here wants cheap easy HP taken off the table?

Honestly, I'm not surprized that GM is hoping to con us into accepting a lesser engine, instead of the real thing.
They probably hope it will tank, as I bet most insiders at GM don't even want a V Series.
Also, aftermarket tuning potential would not be one of their concerns either.
Aren't fast cars adolescent and irresponsible?

It's just sad they are going back to their practice of aiming low instead of going for the kill.
There is no excuse when they have the star engine sitting on the shelf screaming to be put in the game.
I have a problem buying into a half hearted ATS-V effort.

The CTS-V is a great effort and even IT wasn't better than the competition on the first try. That being said, the ATS-V CAN perform better than the M3 without a V8.

Just an FYI - I'd rather see a V8 as well. I'd never complain if the ATS-V turned out to be a monster that "blew the doors off" the GTR. I just understand Cadillac's point of view and don't feel they're giving us a half-hearted attempt at giving Cadillac enthusiasts what they want - a viable alternative - OR better - than what's available at BMW.

Jinx
10-20-12, 02:06 PM
"...the ATS-V CAN perform better than the M3 without a V8."

This is true. I'm sure GM Powertrain still has engineers who can build on the excellent V6 and the I4 turbocharging knowledgebase and produce a great engine... if they're given the job and given enough time to work through the challenges. But will GM make that investment? Will they stay focused on the task long enough for it to survive the scrutiny that will befall a BMW M3 competitor? This engine has to be good enough to replace the Corvette LS3 V8 on Day One. Anything less is half-hearted. Sure, GM has a lot riding on a turbo V6, if it needs one for full-size pickups, but that's a different target; the 450hp screamer that an M3 competitor needs requires its own brief. GM has just doubled-down on the Corvette V8; does it make business sense to build a direct competitor at the same time? They have limited resources, and global products with far more impact on the next several quarters that need GM Powertrain's best efforts.

I would be incredibly impressed to learn that GM had the vision and depth to make that kind of investment. I just don't think it's likely. It think it's more likely to be a let's-try-something good-enough-for-now more-important-work-is-waiting effort. I think of many well-they-tried and because-the-competition-has-one engines in GM's past. And I say, "prove me wrong."

.Jinx

JimmyH
10-20-12, 05:08 PM
Give it up Sal, you are arguing with a wall.

lunarx
10-20-12, 06:08 PM
Seems like we all want a V8, as our 1st choice.
Glad to hear that. :thumbsup:

boycer11
10-20-12, 07:56 PM
A V8 would be sweet. A lot of aftermarket support out their. Put a supercharger on it and it will have some serious horsepower. It will surprise a lot of people and be a blast to drive.

al pettee
10-20-12, 09:03 PM
6.2L V8 for the ATS-V.
6.2L supercharged V8 for the CTS-V.

Makes the most sense to most of the potential buyers of the ATS-V.

thebigjimsho
10-21-12, 08:58 PM
There really is no such thing as overkill when it comes to performance.
Who here wants cheap easy HP taken off the table?

Honestly, I'm not surprized that GM is hoping to con us into accepting a lesser engine, instead of the real thing.
They probably hope it will tank, as I bet most insiders at GM don't even want a V Series.
Also, aftermarket tuning potential would not be one of their concerns either.
Aren't fast cars adolescent and irresponsible?

It's just sad they are going back to their practice of aiming low instead of going for the kill.
There is no excuse when they have the star engine sitting on the shelf screaming to be put in the game.
I have a problem buying into a half hearted ATS-V effort.

Sorry, but I've seen turbo SHOs put a whuppin' on Z06s in standing miles. And that's with FWD and traction issues. Half hearted nothing if it's done right...

lunarx
10-21-12, 11:09 PM
Sorry, but I've seen turbo SHOs put a whuppin' on Z06s in standing miles. And that's with FWD and traction issues. Half hearted nothing if it's done right...
What was the drivability and lifespan of that SHO?
Put a V8 in that same chassis and it will drive better, go faster and live longer.
After a fun experiment Ford conceeded that.

I like the SHO also, but it was made obsolete by advances in engine management that put the V8 back on top.
I think it was a V8 car that won the Pirelli Challenge this year, wish I could remember the make....

You know you don't wish you had a Turbo 4 or 6 under your hood, instead of an LSA.
The LS engine is in the upper leauge of performance engines, so why kick it to the curb?
The LS is the best chance we have to get epic performance from the ATS-V.

Do you think it would be bad for GM's image if the Cadillac ATS-V was too fast?
GM might be thinking that, which would be the only reason they would use a V6-TT instead of a V8.

thebigjimsho
10-22-12, 12:27 AM
What was the drivability and lifespan of that SHO?
Put a V8 in that same chassis and it will drive better, go faster and live longer.
After a fun experiment Ford conceeded that.

I like the SHO also, but it was made obsolete by advances in engine management that put the V8 back on top.
I think it was a V8 car that won the Pirelli Challenge this year, wish I could remember the make....

You know you don't wish you had a Turbo 4 or 6 under your hood, instead of an LSA.
The LS engine is in the upper leauge of performance engines, so why kick it to the curb?
The LS is the best chance we have to get epic performance from the ATS-V.

Do you think it would be bad for GM's image if the Cadillac ATS-V was too fast?
GM might be thinking that, which would be the only reason they would use a V6-TT instead of a V8.

Honestly, I'd have more fun with an LS6 in an ATS sized car than my LSA in the V. And the Yamaha V6 was more fun to rip and rev than the LS6.

If there was a turbo V6 that was as fun to throttle as that SHO motor, I'd take it every time over an LS6 or LSA...

Nuieve
10-22-12, 03:58 AM
It needs to have good fuel economy. 11-15mpg city just not gonna cut it these days. No v8 please, twin turbo v6 would be just fine. I don't want to hear a rustle of dollar bills flying out an exhaust pipe whenever i floor it.

lunarx
10-22-12, 04:40 AM
Good idea Jim, resurect the LS6 for the ATS-V.
A high reving V8 is what the ATS-V needs.
I did not want or expect an LSA, just looking for a revised LS making 450+HP NA.
That would show everyone what GM does best.

Hopefully it revs as well as the Yamaha SHO.
That was a great engine that made as much power as V8's of its day.
Now days V8s make 400-518HP NA and the only NA 6 near the low end of that is from Porsche.
The performance market is getting more serious every year, so manufacturers cant hold back if they expect to earn sales and respect from this crowd.

thebigjimsho
10-22-12, 12:39 PM
It needs to have good fuel economy. 11-15mpg city just not gonna cut it these days. No v8 please, twin turbo v6 would be just fine. I don't want to hear a rustle of dollar bills flying out an exhaust pipe whenever i floor it.

My openness for a turbo6 being said, the LS6 powered V1 could easily get 26-28 mpg highway. In a 3850 lb car. Use some modern touches like direct injection and electric powered steering on a proven LS motor in the light ATS-V and 30mpg could easily be done. And I'm sure city would be in the upper teens...

bruff1977
10-22-12, 05:01 PM
It does not need good fuel economy, it needs competitive fuel economy for THIS SEGMENT. Folks (enthusiasts) in the market for luxury sport sedans usually have the extra coin for insurance and gas as well. That's the trade off. Performance versus fuel economy.

Like Jim said all the new tech in the C7 powerplant could very well have MPG highway in the high 20s-30. Fine by me.

bruff1977
10-24-12, 02:06 PM
So is it safe to assume the ATS-V will get the LT1 based on the preliminary stats? My opinion is it really does not make sense to engineer a TTV6 that will put out roughly similar numbers.

thebigjimsho
10-24-12, 02:34 PM
The TTV6 is supposed to go in the CTS and XTS, too. It's not being engineered just for the V...

Jinx
10-24-12, 03:03 PM
And it should go in those cars first. Let the muggles debug the mild version before staking the performance halo on it.

lunarx
10-24-12, 03:04 PM
So is it safe to assume the ATS-V will get the LT1 based on the preliminary stats? My opinion is it really does not make sense to engineer a TTV6 that will put out roughly similar numbers.

LT1 = I need this car! :yup:
V6TT = Pass. :tisk:

http://wot.motortrend.com/next-gen-lt1-62-liter-v8-for-2014-corvette-revealed-with-450-hp-new-tech-280365.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/24/meet-the-lt1-the-corvette-c7s-new-6-2-liter-small-block-v8/

bruff1977
10-24-12, 06:44 PM
Here's to the Caddy engineers tuning it even further... 500 HP/480TQ??

JimmyH
10-24-12, 07:10 PM
But...but...motortrend you promised me the genV was gonna be 5.5L...what happened?!

----------

450 hp doesn't seem that impressive btw. Unless of course they are holding back lest no one wants to buy all the c6 sitting on dealer lots.

Jinx
10-25-12, 12:19 AM
IIRC, before the ZR1 was formally introduced, GM was saying it would have more than 600hp. It ended up with 638hp.

I hope they're holding back.

Still, if C7 drops a hundred pounds or more, 450hp with that big fat torque curve and a seven-speed will be awfully quick.

.Jinx

lunarx
10-25-12, 12:39 AM
Got to figure it has a mild cam and is capable of more top end.
Also, like the LS3 and LS7, headers and a tune should yeild more power.
There is always a SC Kit, for those wanting even more.

The gas mileage is what you guys should be all excited about. :banana:

JimmyH
10-25-12, 02:38 PM
It is when you drive 25000 miles per year like I do.

M5eater
10-25-12, 03:40 PM
But...but...motortrend you promised me the genV was gonna be 5.5L...what happened?!

----------

450 hp doesn't seem that impressive btw. Unless of course they are holding back lest no one wants to buy all the c6 sitting on dealer lots.

Autoblog is unbelievly still reporting that there may be a 5.5L V8.. even in light of the 6.2L

they said something about there being a 6.2, a 5.5 and a 4.4 V6 or some nonsense.


they also said monkey fish will rise from the ocean and rule the planet.

Jinx
10-25-12, 04:05 PM
There will be a smaller displacement version for trucks.

JimmyH
10-25-12, 04:42 PM
I am betting GM's twin turbo 6, when (if) it is finally ready, will usurp all V8s except in performance cars. Much like Ford is trying to do. Of course Ford isn't quite able to make V8s with broad torque curves like GM does.

Lord Cadillac
10-25-12, 05:52 PM
"...the ATS-V CAN perform better than the M3 without a V8."

This is true. I'm sure GM Powertrain still has engineers who can build on the excellent V6 and the I4 turbocharging knowledgebase and produce a great engine... if they're given the job and given enough time to work through the challenges. But will GM make that investment? Will they stay focused on the task long enough for it to survive the scrutiny that will befall a BMW M3 competitor? This engine has to be good enough to replace the Corvette LS3 V8 on Day One. Anything less is half-hearted. Sure, GM has a lot riding on a turbo V6, if it needs one for full-size pickups, but that's a different target; the 450hp screamer that an M3 competitor needs requires its own brief. GM has just doubled-down on the Corvette V8; does it make business sense to build a direct competitor at the same time? They have limited resources, and global products with far more impact on the next several quarters that need GM Powertrain's best efforts.

I would be incredibly impressed to learn that GM had the vision and depth to make that kind of investment. I just don't think it's likely. It think it's more likely to be a let's-try-something good-enough-for-now more-important-work-is-waiting effort. I think of many well-they-tried and because-the-competition-has-one engines in GM's past. And I say, "prove me wrong."

.Jinx

In reply to what I bolded - that's typical GM-think and I don't blame you for feeling that's the plan. But it really isn't. Cadillac knows how close they are to the 3-Series so they're not going to go easy on it. One of the good points made for the TT V6 while going back and forth refers to bragging rights. If the ATS gets a supercharged V8 and beats the turbocharged I6 M3 - you're going to get a whole lot of "unfair" and "apples to oranges" in media reviews - as well as all over internet forums. The TT V6 going head to head with the TT I6 is where they want to be.

JimmyH
10-25-12, 07:24 PM
^Exactly. Plus Cadillac is not simply trying to build another performance car (there are already plenty of those) They are trying to build a performance brand. And for that, image is everything. Even though image means nothing to those of use who are just interested in performance, we are a small minority.

Besides, if you want an LT1 powered alpha, I almost promise you it is going to be available as a sixth gen Camaro. Which is fine by me. I don't need (or want) cushy leather seats and a bunch of electro-console-gadgets.

lunarx
10-25-12, 08:24 PM
Image is winning.
I don't see a SC V8 being necessary, a NA V8 will be fine.
That LT1 would be perfect and would beat a stock boost Turbo I6 M3.

I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think people in this segment would have faith in an unproven TT V6 from GM.
I can't see anybody in their right mind buying a GM TT V6 over the upcomming Turbo I6 M3 or TT V8 C63?

GM knows V8's (and wins racing series with them) so that is what they need to go with in order to properly compete.
Anything less and they may as well stay home.
Should I dare to use Fords current TT V6 SHO as an example of underachievement?
I could not bear to see GM go there.

People trust GM V8's, because they have a proven track record and are economical to maintain/repair and have a long service life.
If you like massive depreciation then a TT V6 is for you.
An LT1 V8 however would continue the history of conquest that the V1 and V2 started.

Its an ATS
10-25-12, 11:37 PM
The old iron block 350 just being the LT1? This new one is the LT1.5?

Jinx
10-26-12, 06:26 AM
In reply to what I bolded - that's typical GM-think and I don't blame you for feeling that's the plan. But it really isn't. Cadillac knows how close they are to the 3-Series so they're not going to go easy on it. One of the good points made for the TT V6 while going back and forth refers to bragging rights. If the ATS gets a supercharged V8 and beats the turbocharged I6 M3 - you're going to get a whole lot of "unfair" and "apples to oranges" in media reviews - as well as all over internet forums. The TT V6 going head to head with the TT I6 is where they want to be.

UNFAIR? That's absurd. Who would really have the temerity to make such a sore-loser whinge, and who would pay them any attention? I never once read the word "unfair" in any ZL1 / GT500 discussion.

But where'd you get the idea of a supercharged V8? The LT1 at 450/450 is the right answer.

And "just get a Camaro" really?? Why should GM make anyone choose between their best engine and their best sport sedan?

Lord Cadillac
10-26-12, 01:17 PM
Look. If the ATS-V has a V8, we'll all be happy. If the ATS-V has a TT V6, some of us will be unhappy. Let's see what happens. All I'm saying is that, right now, a V8 is not in the plans for the ATS-V. That could change. And if enough people voice their concern, maybe it will. Good luck...

JimmyH
10-26-12, 01:26 PM
And "just get a Camaro" really?? Why should GM make anyone choose between their best engine and their best sport sedan?

Because the next Camaro is going to be the same platform as the ATS. But it will be cheaper. And have the same level of handling.

If you are TRUE driving enthusiast, then the luxury and refinements of the ATS won't matter to you. Getting the most performance per dollar will.

Jinx
10-26-12, 02:44 PM
Lord Cadillac -- I'm keeping my fingers crossed. And my voice clear :)


Because the next Camaro is going to be the same platform as the ATS. But it will be cheaper. And have the same level of handling.

If you are TRUE driving enthusiast, then the luxury and refinements of the ATS won't matter to you. Getting the most performance per dollar will.

Oh for Pete's sake, not the "no true Scotsman" malarky. I can't believe a SUPER MODERATOR of the CADILLAC FORUM posted that with a straight face. Where's the wink? Isn't the religion here supposed to be the Standard of the World?

.Jinx

JimmyH
10-26-12, 03:24 PM
I am not a scotsman. And I am not a Cadillac diehard. I like driving, and I don't care about vibrating leather seats, fancy headlights, or godhelpme, haptic feedback touch screens.

Jinx
10-26-12, 04:44 PM
More straw men. Knock it off with the implication that anyone who's interested in things you're not is somehow worth less than you.

JimmyH
10-26-12, 06:22 PM
I implied nothing of the sort. If you are having an inferiority complex, that's on you.

You are the one who implied the Camaro is less of a car than the ATS. I simply supplied evidence that you are wrong. What you want in a car is not what I want in a car. If you want luxury niceties, that's great. I don't need them, and I don't feel I should have to pay for them to get a great chassis.

The whole point of this argument is why the ATS-V probably won't have a V8, and that's because most of the buyers who will be able to afford one are not interested in pushrod V8s. While the guys most likely to be intersted in a Camaro certainly will be.

I think it's too early to tell if the ATS-V will have a V8 or turbo V6. GM is targeting the 328i with the ATS. If they succeed in taking BMW buyers away from the holy 3-series, then they are certainly going to target the M3 with the ATS-V. And will likely give it all the specifications (including a turbo6) to compete with it.

If the ATS doesn't stack up well against the 328 and 335, then I think there will be little point in having the ATS-V chase the M3, and in that case, the V will be more likely to get the LT1.

This is my theory, and I am sticking to it. If you guys want an LT1 powered ATS-V, then pray the ATS doesn't compete well with the 3-series.

Jinx
10-26-12, 06:53 PM
Keep on making things up out of whole cloth and twisting every which way to dodge the truth. You make no sense and your attitude has been exposed.

JimmyH
10-26-12, 06:58 PM
Whatever, my man. I am not the one getting testy or making accusations.

lunarx
10-26-12, 07:55 PM
The reasoning here is not sound. :thehand:
The 3 Series is not the only car on the planet.
It is not what Cadillac should fixate on.
There is no need to try and mirror the BMW drivetrain in order to compete with it.
The way to win is to simply build a great car and follow up with a great ownership experience.

Anyone who mentions 3-Series 3-times in a post needs to just go buy one. :halo:

IMO GM has the competition beat in the engine department already.
I would put these engines up against anything from the other manufacturers

Ecotec 2.0 Turbo
http://wardsauto.com/auto-makers/general-motors-20l-turbocharged-dohc-i-4

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news/news_archive/powertrain_archive.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Dec/1214_ats.html

LS3/LT1

Unfortunately, the GM V6 is getting beat by just about everyone.
It's just an average engine, at best, and won't be anything more than a gas-wasting, oil-consuming, blow-hard in Turbo form.
That is not the awnser for an ATS-V.

I do think the GM NA V6 is a fine option for a non-V ATS, for those who prefer a more refined driving experience, than a turbo 4.
I think the Ecotech 2.0 Turbo ATS will be a hit, as it seems to have the right stuff for the right price.
That means the ATS-V needs to be really special as Cadillac set their own bar pretty high.

Cars in the V, AMG, M, RSx leauge need to be the real deal.
If GM is not ready to deliver something of that calibur, they should just keep the ATS-V on the bench.
The other ATS models are good for their intended purpose and it would do more harm than good to bring out a V model that gets it's ass handed to it, by its big leauge competition.

Its an ATS
10-27-12, 12:17 AM
I have a feeling they are going to take their time with the ATS-V and put some extra time into the redesign of the CTS-V. The last head to head M5/CTS-V, the M5 had it. I expected BMW to come back fighting after Cadillac caught them with their pants down...

bruff1977
10-27-12, 10:46 AM
Sorry for the history lesson, but we all know that Cadillac benchmarked (a previous) 3-series when engineering the ATS. But I would hope the 'follow method' stops once the hi-po variant is discussed or developed. *Ahem... Standard of the World*

And an announcement at Detroit would be very nice. Just that, so not to steal the C7's thunder.

concorso
12-13-12, 01:52 PM
If the ATS doesn't stack up well against the 328 and 335, then I think there will be little point in having the ATS-V chase the M3, and in that case, the V will be more likely to get the LT1.
The 1st and 2nd gen CTS V6 models were lagging against the BMW equivalents. That didnt stop Cadillac from building M-killers with both CTS-V models.

exesivefire
12-23-12, 01:02 AM
I think an important factor is being left out... There will be a new grand national or gnx as well.. A Boosted v6 or a v8 would live well in there too.

In my honest opinion, I can't foresee it happening, but maybe for the first time ever, a buyer will have an engine choice in a V?

Hell they could get crazy and offer both motors in each car? Camaro, ats, Buick..

Jinx
12-23-12, 04:35 AM
Where is this Grand National / GNX news coming from? I don't buy it.

exesivefire
12-23-12, 08:06 PM
Where is this Grand National / GNX news coming from? I don't buy it.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/11/26/buick-grand-national-rumored-to-return/

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/grand-national-gnx-and-t-type-are-returning-to-buick.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/buick-dusting-off-grand-national-gnx-and-t-type-nameplates/

bruff1977
12-23-12, 08:23 PM
I think an important factor is being left out... There will be a new grand national or gnx as well.. A Boosted v6 or a v8 would live well in there too.

In my honest opinion, I can't foresee it happening, but maybe for the first time ever, a buyer will have an engine choice in a V?

Hell they could get crazy and offer both motors in each car? Camaro, ats, Buick..

It would be crazy, but that would be a classic case of badge engineering... Personally, the ATS-V or the new GN/GNX doesn't deserve that. The V should get a tuned eight cylinder (LT1), and the GN/GNX should get the turbo sixes, with different tunes or boost.

Jinx
12-23-12, 08:29 PM
Fox and Autoblog are just regurgitating Edmunds. Their article is based on a "reliable source" -- but they also say it'll be more than a year before we hear anything official. And that doesn't track with a photo of a finished production car sans camouflage.

JimmyH
12-24-12, 01:01 AM
Fox and Autoblog are just regurgitating Edmunds. Their article is based on a "reliable source" -- but they also say it'll be more than a year before we hear anything official. And that doesn't track with a photo of a finished production car sans camouflage.

Those are very clearly photoshops.

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I hope they are right. I would be VERY interested in a Buick alpha if its priced right. I am skeptical though. It would undoubtedly compete with the
regal GS. Remember the grand nat of yore were regals.

mikesul
12-24-12, 10:22 AM
This would be very satisfying and exciting if these models come to fruition! I'm going to wait until Sept. '13 to make my decision on my CTS Coupe replacement. By then the new 8 speed auto's should be in play also.

exesivefire
12-27-12, 12:50 AM
Those are very clearly photoshops.

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I hope they are right. I would be VERY interested in a Buick alpha if its priced right. I am skeptical though. It would undoubtedly compete with the
regal GS. Remember the grand nat of yore were regals.

It wouldn't be far fetched to think the next gen regal will move to this platform.. What reason do they have not too? Honestly,had the regal been a rwd/ awd platform it may have been in my shopping cart before the ats.

Buick needs a younger face, that could be it. Badge engineering or not, it's all good for a GM performance car enthusiast.

JimmyH
12-28-12, 10:08 PM
I don't have any problem with badge engineering. I don't see why people care. If GM can make better cars cheaper by sharing platform/tooling costs, I'm all for it.

I would love to see the Regal move to the Alpha platform. I just don't think there is room at Buick for two midsize sport sedans. Even though I personally think it makes alot of sense for GM to have two of them, one front-drive, one-rear-drive, it would be too confusing for most consumers.

thebigjimsho
12-29-12, 07:10 PM
Badge engineering is fine. Bad badge engineering is where the problem is...

JimmyH
12-30-12, 05:02 PM
GM used to allow all variants to look identical, save for the grill and wheel covers. If that's what you mean by bad badge engineering, I agree. There is no sense having clones on the market. I suppose that is the definition of badge engineering. I don't think they do that anymore though. They make enough changes in the fascias, skirts, wheels, and interiors for then to have their own identities. The Lambdas are a great example of that. So is Zeta. I am betting Alpha will continue that trend if they so choose.