: My 98 Deville N* HG repair adventure !!



iflipcars
11-27-11, 01:04 PM
Hello folks,

Im new to the forums, and I thank you all for the wealth of knowledge I have already absorbed. I bought this car a few days ago for 1k, and started the process of removing the engine in my home garage last night. I am going thru the top. My FSM is on its way via ebay, but I couldn't wait. I have about 6yrs of mechanic-ing, and probably 15 or so engine removals at work, and another 3 personally so I have enough experience. I was happy to find that the engine turned over after charging the batteries, never know when u buy a car that doesnt run :)

Accomplishments so far 1)Hood removed, 2) Intake is removed, 3) 2 fans are removed, 4)dog bones removed, 5)Coil/ignition module removed

The 2 things that I have noticed so far that were, well, wrong are: 1) There is standing coolant in the bottom of the intake when looking through throttle body hole, about 1/8 to 1/4" 2) In the valley, after removing the intake, their was/is standing oil in the section opposite the starter. About 1/2" of it. From what I can tell it was oozing out of the head gasket seal into the valley, but I'm not sure yet. Hell, it might be power steering fluid for that matter. (that's a long shot !! lol)

Pics soon, I promise !! Going to work on disconnecting power steering and AC stuff today. If FSM procedure is to lift car off of drivetrain, then any advice for what needs to be disassembled in the car on front of engine before i lift it would be helpful AC compressor? power steering? crank pulley? alternator ? I'm going to evaluate myself today and give my 2cents on observations l8er.

it has begun.....so exciting !!

btw, my plan is to use Jake's studs from N* Performance and Felpro gaskets. I sure hope that he is shipping the studs again soon, since I read somewhere that he had to halt production due to costs etc.... Please jake, I'll fly to Canada and run the CNC myself !! j/k :P

Ranger
11-27-11, 01:58 PM
If FSM procedure is to lift car off of drivetrain, then any advice for what needs to be disassembled in the car on front of engine before i lift it would be helpful AC compressor? power steering? crank pulley? alternator ?
Check the Tech Tips section. I think there are at least 2 tutorials in there that may help you.

iflipcars
11-27-11, 02:01 PM
Thanks Ranger, will do !

ternstes
11-27-11, 02:15 PM
If you are lifting the car, check the brake line routing around the subframe. If you can leave them connected, tie the brake module off on the frame so it isn't hanging by the lines. Some people get away with leaving the ac connected, but if you can vac it out, just disconnect it. Other than various electrical, everything drops out nicely. You can lift from the big cross beam about the radiator. Take pictures and label everything for easy reassembly! Good luck!

iflipcars
11-27-11, 02:38 PM
I was going to pull the motor out the top. I'm in my home garage, and lifting the car off of subframe seems like its not an option. If it can be done safely, im open to the possibility. I have a manual chain hoist, and will be purchasing a cherry picker (engine hoist) soon. The problem would be after I lift car far enough off of cradle, I would have to move the cradle somewhere to then get the engine off of the cradle. (im tearing down engine to bare block, im not risking anything...block and heads are making trip to a machine shop) Also, supporting the car with my wood frame garage beams seems crazy !! lol

iflipcars
11-27-11, 02:49 PM
I am currently searching for information on steps necessary to pull the engine out through the top, not having any luck so far....can it even be done? I realize the difficulty factor is probably increased, but in my home garage I think im stuck doing it this way without some engineering work in garage first :)

iflipcars
11-27-11, 03:19 PM
I already had a alldatadiy.com account, so i just added the deville. It has an "alternate" procedure for engine removal through the top, so I'm good with the procedure. I like having a checklist :) Here is the cut and paste of removal procedure from alldata:

Tools Required
J 37088-A Fuel Line Quick Connect Separator
J 39465 Engine Tilter
REMOVAL PROCEDURE




Disable the SIR.
Recover the air conditioning system.
Remove the air cleaner and intake duct.
Remove the drain cooling system.
Remove the engine cover.
Remove the hood.
Remove the cross tower brace.
Remove the radiator upper cover.
Remove the left and right engine mount struts. Reinstall the bolt in the left front engine mount strut bracket as this will be used as an engine lift point.
Remove the upper and lower radiator hoses.
Disconnect the forward discriminating sensor from the radiator support and set it aside.
Remove the cooling fans.
Remove the transmission cooler lines from the radiator.
Remove the radiator upper mounting panel.
Disconnect the A/C condenser from the radiator.
Remove the radiator.
Remove the throttle and cruise control cables from the throttle body.
Remove the brake booster vacuum hose from the intake manifold.
Using J 37088-A disconnect the fuel inlet and return lines.
Remove the coolant reservoir.
Remove the A/C line between the accumulator and the evaporator.
Disconnect the coolant hoses from the pipes at the front of the engine.
Remove the accessory drive belt.
Remove the negative battery cable from the left cylinder head. CAUTION: Refer to Battery Disconnect Caution in Service Precautions.
Remove the positive battery cable from the battery and the body retainer.
Remove the shift cable from the shift lever and the bracket.
Remove the Park/Neutral switch and bracket.
Remove the transmission vent hose and the shift cable from the throttle body bracket.
Remove the TP Sensor, the MAF sensor, Knock sensor and IAC valve connector.
Remove the ignition coil and the spark plug wires.
Remove the throttle body coolant hose at the water cross over.
Remove the EGR pipe and the crankcase vent pipe from the throttle body.
Remove the fuel rail ground wire from the right cylinder head and disconnect the fuel rail bracket from the EGR valve.
Remove the PCV valve from the right cam tower.
Disconnect the injector harness main electrical connector.
Remove the intake manifold.
Remove the starter.
Remove the cylinder head temperature switch electrical connector and ground wire from the right cylinder head.
Raise and suitably support the vehicle.
Remove the transmission to oil pan brace.
Remove the left transmission to engine brace.
Remove the front engine splash shield and the flywheel inspection cover.
Remove the torque converter from the flywheel.
Disconnect the A/C compressor, generator, crank sensor, left oxygen sensor, oil level sensor and oil pressure sensor electrical connectors and disconnect the harness from the engine.
Remove the right engine splash shield.
Remove the A/C compressor and set aside.
Remove the left motor mount to cradle.
Remove the post converter oxygen sensor heat shield.
Remove the pre-converter oxygen sensor electrical connector.
Remove the intermediate pipe hangers and the catalytic converter from the "Y" pipe.
Remove the right front engine to transmission brace.
Remove the transmission to cylinder head support from the transmission.
Remove the ground wire from the right side of the engine.
Remove the power steering pressure line retainer from the front of the engine.
Remove the left rear transmission to engine brace from the transmission.
Lower the vehicle.
Remove the left rear transmission to the engine brace.
Disconnect the engine harness from the right cam cover and set it aside.
Disconnect the vacuum line connector near the engine harness pass through.
Remove the power steering pump pressure and return lines from the pump.
Remove the coolant cross over pipe.



Remove the four transmission to engine (bell housing) bolts.
Connect an engine lifting fixture to the engine using support hooks at the left rear and the right rear of the engine. Use the torque strut bracket at the left front of the engine for the third lift point. A load tilting device such as J 39465 will provide an extra degree of adjustment.
Remove the engine from the vehicle.
INSTALLATION PROCEDURE




Lower the engine into position into the chassis. Use caution when moving the engine to prevent damage.
Install four engine to transmission (bell housing) bolts. Tighten the bolts to 100 Nm (74 ft. lbs.). NOTICE: Refer to Fastener Notice in Service Precautions.
Remove the lifting fixture from the engine.
Install the coolant cross over pipe.
Install the power steering pump pressure and return the lines to the pump.
Install the vacuum line connection near the engine harness pass through.
Install the engine harness to the right cam tower and the six electrical connections.
Install the left rear transmission to the engine brace.
Raise the vehicle and suitably support the vehicle.
Install the left rear transmission to engine brace to the transmission.
Install the power steering pressure line retainer to the front of the engine.
Connect the ground wire to the right side of the engine and bolt attaching the transmission to the cylinder head brace.
Install the transmission to cylinder head support to the transmission.



Install the right front engine to the transmission brace.
Install the catalytic converter to the exhaust manifold rear pipe.
Install the intermediate pipe hangers.
Install the electrical connection at the pre-converter oxygen sensor and heat shield.
Install two nuts attaching the left motor mount to the cradle.
Install the A/C compressor to the engine.
Install the right engine splash shield.
Connect the A/C compressor, Generator, Crank Sensor, Oxygen Sensor, Oil Level Sensor, and Oil Pressure Sensor Electrical connectors.
Install the torque converter to the flywheel. Tighten the torque converter to 47 Nm (35 ft. lbs.).
Install the flywheel inspection cover.
Install the front engine splash shield.
Install the left transmission to the engine brace.



Install the transmission to the oil pan brace. Tighten the bolt to 50 Nm (37 ft. lbs.).
Lower the vehicle
Install the ignition coil pack and the spark plug wires.
Connect the cylinder head temperature switch electrical connector and ground wire to the rear of the right cylinder head.
Install the starter.
Install the intake manifold.
Connect the injector harness main electrical connector.
Install the PCV valve to the right cam cover.
Install the fuel rail bracket to the EGR valve.
Install the fuel rail ground wire to the right cylinder head.
Install the EGR pipe and the crankcase vent pipe to the throttle body.
Install the throttle body coolant hose at the water crossover.
Connect the TP Sensor, the MAF Sensor, and the IAC Valve electrical connectors.
Install the transmission vent hose and shift cable to the throttle body bracket.
Install the Park/Neutral switch and bracket.
Install the shift cable to the shift lever and bracket.
Connect the positive battery cable to the battery and the body retainer.
Connect the negative battery cable to the left cylinder head.
Install the accessory drive belt.
Install the coolant hoses to the pipes at the front of the engine.
Install the coolant reservoir.
Install the A/C line between the accumulator and the evacuator core.
Install the fuel lines to the fuel rail.
Install the brake booster vacuum hose to the intake manifold.
Install the throttle and cruise control cables to the throttle body.
Install the radiator.
Install the A/C condenser to the radiator.
Install the cooling fans.



Install the transmission cooler lines.
Install the forward discriminating sensor to the radiator support.
Install upper and lower radiator hoses.
Install the right and left engine mount struts and adjust to zero preload.
Install the radiator upper cover.
Install the cross tower brace.
Install the hood.
Install the engine top cover.
Install the air cleaner assembly.
Install the air intake duct and the air cleaner.
Install the refill cooling system.
Recharge the A/C system.
Enable the SIR.
Bleed the power steering system.

maeng9981
11-27-11, 04:52 PM
You will have to find specific people who have done this through the top. IMO if this is your first time working on this engine, I'd recommend dropping the cradle. Much easier. Less hassle, and the whole subfrmae comes out so you can basically do everything.

FSM also directs you to drop the cradle.

If you are ever worried about not being able to lift the car in the garage,
2-ton cherry picker with the car in the garage, even with a garage door works.
http://i.imgur.com/khDyt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XpHOa.jpg

Good luck.

iflipcars
11-27-11, 05:00 PM
wow, ok i like the looks of that !! Thanks for the pics. Looks like I need a strong 4 wheel dolly like you show so i can roll frame/engine assembly to the side of car and work on it. Only problem I have is getting the engine onto my engine stand, if car is floating with engine hoist....and how do i close my garage door with that going on? I'll be working on it in short bursts by myself, so it may be a week total until engine is on stand

vincentm
11-27-11, 07:31 PM
Click on my profile and see topics.I've started I posted a complete guide on removal from the top, complete a-z..I customised it from my AllData subscription

ternstes
11-27-11, 07:54 PM
once the subframe is out, lower the car onto some jackstands. that will free up your hoist and let you shut the garage door.

Ranger
11-27-11, 09:49 PM
(im tearing down engine to bare block, im not risking anything...block and heads are making trip to a machine shop)
Wait a minute, let's take a break here. Why are you doing this? If you are replacing the HG's understand that the heads almost NEVER need any work and the lower end is damned near bullet proof. If you are repairing a HG failure all you need to do is drill and tap the block, install the inserts or studs and put it back together. I'm sure most everyone will agree that unless you are repairing something else or know of another problem, you are wasting a lot of time, effort and money.

maeng9981
11-27-11, 11:18 PM
Yep. Don't mess with the bottom half if you aren't having any problems other than HG.

89falcon
11-28-11, 01:33 AM
It's OK to split the block to fix oil leaks......just don't touch the rods! If you do split the block, you'll need a new "oil manifold"
http://www.northstarperformance.com/engparts.php

I dropped my cradle on to two of these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/dollies/1000-lb-capacity-polypropylene-movers-dolly-93614.html

Worked like a champ!
I actually had trouble getting my car high enough (97 STS) so I wheeled the engine out the passenger side wheel well....just had to drop the right strut to do it.....

Biggest tip? Take your time during re-assembly to make sure all the wires are right....especially the grounds.

and the wiring harness on my 97 that went from the engine into the cabin, actually disconnects under the dash.

-I never knew my power steering pump held that much fluid....seemed like GALLONS!!!:D

If you break something, let me know, I probably have an extra....still have a complete disassembled engine and tranny in my garage (wife not happy!!!)

iflipcars
11-28-11, 02:05 AM
Wait a minute, let's take a break here. Why are you doing this? If you are replacing the HG's understand that the heads almost NEVER need any work and the lower end is damned near bullet proof. If you are repairing a HG failure all you need to do is drill and tap the block, install the inserts or studs and put it back together. I'm sure most everyone will agree that unless you are repairing something else or know of another problem, you are wasting a lot of time, effort and money. I bought the car on craigslist, picked it up at the shop he had it towed to. All he knows is "I got it real hot, drove it here, and now it wont start" The shop just says to me, "it needs a motor". I read up here for 4 hours the night before I went to look at it, and when i saw 5 empty coolant jugs and block sealer in the trunk, i figured it was a ringer for HGs needing replaced, but I never heard it run. So...the question is....how bulletproof is the lower end and heads??

I'm all for a quickie, but it feels like a dice roll.

89falcon
11-28-11, 10:33 AM
I bought the car on craigslist, picked it up at the shop he had it towed to. All he knows is "I got it real hot, drove it here, and now it wont start" The shop just says to me, "it needs a motor". I read up here for 4 hours the night before I went to look at it, and when i saw 5 empty coolant jugs and block sealer in the trunk, i figured it was a ringer for HGs needing replaced, but I never heard it run. So...the question is....how bulletproof is the lower end and heads??

I'm all for a quickie, but it feels like a dice roll.

While driving it without coolant isn't the smartest thing in the world to do, the N* is designed to do it without doing damage to the motor. Just inspect the block and heads for cracks.

How many miles on the motor?

Ranger
11-28-11, 11:24 AM
So...the question is....how bulletproof is the lower end and heads??
The ONLY problem with the lower end is oil leaks. If the halfcase or the main seals are not leaking I would not touch it. Bearings and timing chain should last forever.

You can lay a straight edge across the head face to check it, but I can't ever recall hearing of one being warped and needing to be machined.

vincentm
11-28-11, 01:18 PM
The ONLY problem with the lower end is oil leaks. If the halfcase or the main seals are not leaking I would not touch it. Bearings and timing chain should last forever.

You can lay a straight edge across the head face to check it, but I can't ever recall hearing of one being warped and needing to be machined.

Rod bearings do go. Mine were shot:

http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/97EldoradoVinny.aspx

s (http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/97EldoradoVinny.aspx)croll down

iflipcars
11-28-11, 04:41 PM
The odometer reads 105,xxx

I am new to the forums, so I don't know everyone's experience level etc... I can speak for my own. I have torn down motors to the bare block, had them checked out at the machine shop and re-assembled them, some including the wrist pins (spiral locks). My 95 mustang project includes a complete tear down, install of a 331 stroker kit (everything, i ground the rings, installed wrist pins....all of it.) The mustang has a BIGSTUFF 3 engine management system with a dual sync distributor to allow for sequential injection. The entire stock pcm and wiring harness were removed and replaced. I am currently reading and learning how to tune the EMS myself, and THAT is a challenge which I enjoy....

However, engines.....and how they are assembled, is not a challenge to me, or scary. I have 10yrs of shop experience, 6 of which was in a very busy shop, 1/2 of the business being transmission repair/overhaul. I have dropped cradles on cars too many times to count....with a 20foot ceiling and a lift :) My record for taking a 3.1 litre engine out of small to midsize chevy cars is 36minutes. (we had a contest in the shop between myself and another guy...he was good....i think 29minutes :) )

Anyways, im taking the engine apart, cuz its out of the car...and gaskets/seals are CHEAP and following torque procedures is also easy. Getting this engine out...bottom or top, in my garage is HARD. So, that's how I roll, if you will. If I'm gonna spend the effort involved to get it out....it's going to be completely inspected. I'm not gonna have in the back of my mind "Gee, I wonder if xxxx or yyyy is worn out" It will be completely inspected and re-assembled CORRECTLY, that I am confident in. Machine shop grinds and balances crank, gives you the correct size bearings, install....it's not hard really. The Northstar is technically advanced, but its rotating assembly is the same as every other piston gasoline engine made on the planet for about 60 years now. The block may be aluminum, and trust me, that is new to me so I've read ALOT on here about powdery aluminum, dex-cool effects, etc.... but the rotating assembly is cast or forged....like all the rest :) and is FUN to me, not challenging or scary. Hell, if i didn't get to take the engine apart, I wouldn't have bought the car !! Seriously, I plan on making a few dollars on this car...but its also somewhat therapeutic to me :) My first car was bought at age 15, engine was completely overhauled and it was on the road on my 16th birthday the same day I got my license :)

Anyways, that's just a bit of background on me....so we can avoid posts about the scariness and pitfalls of engine overhaul.

Submariner409
11-28-11, 05:14 PM
..........you do NOT grind and balance a Northstar crank: you replace it. The rotating assembly is NOT "the same as every.....". In a normal overhaul you do NOT hone the cylinders.............you do NOT cut the head surfaces..............food for thought.............

You NEED a GM shop manual to study before you make some very expensive mistakes.

I, too am an engine builder.............but the Northstar is quite unlike most other engines - count on it.

For a brief peek, click on my username, open my profile. Two albums in there - 6 pages of Northstar parts and diagrams, as well as a couple of what I build for fun and profit. The Northstar demands a steep learning curve - trust me.

iflipcars
11-28-11, 05:35 PM
..........you do NOT grind and balance a Northstar crank: you replace it. The rotating assembly is NOT "the same as every.....". In a normal overhaul you do NOT hone the cylinders.............you do NOT cut the head surfaces..............food for thought.............

You NEED a GM shop manual to study before you make some very expensive mistakes.

I, too am an engine builder.............but the Northstar is quite unlike most other engines - count on it.

For a brief peek, click on my username, open my profile. Two albums in there - 6 pages of Northstar parts and diagrams, as well as a couple of what I build for fun and profit. The Northstar demands a steep learning curve - trust me.

Submariner, thanks for the warnings ! I believe you on the grinding of the crank, but it begs the question....WHY? They are bearings, not fuel tables right? I'm so curious as to why this is so taboo on this engine?

edit: and yes, i have FSM on the way

Submariner409
11-28-11, 05:49 PM
The crank journals are radius fillet ground for high rpm strength and con rod big end location. The GM service manual clearly states not to grind the crank.

89falcon
11-28-11, 10:09 PM
Submariner, thanks for the warnings ! I believe you on the grinding of the crank, but it begs the question....WHY? They are bearings, not fuel tables right? I'm so curious as to why this is so taboo on this engine?

edit: and yes, i have FSM on the way

What Sub said on the crank!!! And I'm completely with you!....I'm a vette guy and have done my share of SBC's.....to include porting and polishing just the right head casting numbers....plus a bunch of other "interesting" vehicles...fords, bmws, mitsus, ect, ect.....

But the N* is PRICEY when you start taking it apart......
-the rods are one piece forged, then "cracked"....and have a tendency to lose their round shape on the big end if you disassemble.....so they may need resizing.....and the rod bolts will need replacing.....and maybe the main bolts......which may or may not come out with aluminum threads attached.......and if you don't do the torquing just right on the top or bottom......the block will crack.....or it could crack anyway.....and the rear main seal...pita.....need a "special tool" to install it......you'll also need to replace the front pulley/harmonic balancer bolt....if you try to re-use the old one, there is a good chance it will fail while torquing......heck, if you put the wrong length bold in one of the bracket holes on the block, you can crack the thing!

IOW, we with ya!!!! lot's of knowledge on this board gained from "sweat equity"...and some things that aren't that important on other engines, become crazy important on this thing....even down to the kind of oil you use on the pre-2000 cars!!! So don't get offended by what seems like silly advice....we just want the car to turn out well!!

Ranger
11-28-11, 10:23 PM
Yeah, don't hone the cylinders. :tisk: Northstars (as you may well be aware of) use some oil. That is due to a somewhat aggressive factory hone and that prevents any cylinder wear. I'll bet when you pull the heads you still see the factory crosshatch pattern in the cylinder walls.

Here's one at 130K.

iflipcars
11-28-11, 11:13 PM
89Falcon, Ranger & Submariner, thanks so much. It seems the best course of action is to only do what needs to be done. I'll keep that in mind as I go along.

89falcon
11-28-11, 11:47 PM
89Falcon, Ranger & Submariner, thanks so much. It seems the best course of action is to only do what needs to be done. I'll keep that in mind as I go along.

Keep in mind....I have a completely disassembled N* in my garage that I still may rebuild....because I'm very weird that way.....

If you are like me, and you LOVE the car, and spending a few grand to get the engine "perfect" is what you want to do, knock yourself out!!! If you decide to go that route, I'd suggest getting a core engine and rebuild it....it seems when you try to build up a northstar, it ALWAYS takes much longer than planned....just ask Vincentm!! But stay as far away from Vincent as possible.....he's VERY BAD LUCK! I think his engine had every problem imaginable (out of balance crank, bad HGs, cracked block.....not a guy to take to Vegas with you!)

iflipcars
11-29-11, 12:29 AM
Keep in mind....I have a completely disassembled N* in my garage that I still may rebuild....because I'm very weird that way.....

If you are like me, and you LOVE the car, and spending a few grand to get the engine "perfect" is what you want to do, knock yourself out!!! If you decide to go that route, I'd suggest getting a core engine and rebuild it....it seems when you try to build up a northstar, it ALWAYS takes much longer than planned....just ask Vincentm!! But stay as far away from Vincent as possible.....he's VERY BAD LUCK! I think his engine had every problem imaginable (out of balance crank, bad HGs, cracked block.....not a guy to take to Vegas with you!)

Umm, yeah, i read the 18 page HG thread by vincentm. No comments whatsoever on that thread.....wow. All I know is that Jake was toying with the idea of only selling his studs to trusted shops in that thread, and I wouldn't blame him I guess. However, that might mess up my plans of using his stud kit on my engine.

By the way, I'm still a bit baffled by the standing coolant in the intake manifold of this engine. How would it make its way into the intake manifold? The intake valves are only open when piston is headed down, and sucking air in.....any ideas?

maeng9981
11-29-11, 05:21 AM
Intake manifold is a dry unit and it does not involve coolant.

Submariner409
11-29-11, 09:16 AM
There are several pictures of the (dry) intake manifold and its seals in my albums.

Remember that harmonic balancer bolt torque drives the oil pump - there is a specific torque procedure that, if not followed, will guarantee loss of oil pressure on startup.

NHRATA01
11-29-11, 10:52 AM
Rod bearings do go. Mine were shot:

http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/97EldoradoVinny.aspx

s (http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/97EldoradoVinny.aspx)croll down
Just for clarification, what you replaced in that link appear to be the main bearings, not the rod bearings.

vincentm
11-29-11, 12:04 PM
Keep in mind....I have a completely disassembled N* in my garage that I still may rebuild....because I'm very weird that way.....

If you are like me, and you LOVE the car, and spending a few grand to get the engine "perfect" is what you want to do, knock yourself out!!! If you decide to go that route, I'd suggest getting a core engine and rebuild it....it seems when you try to build up a northstar, it ALWAYS takes much longer than planned....just ask Vincentm!! But stay as far away from Vincent as possible.....he's VERY BAD LUCK! I think his engine had every problem imaginable (out of balance crank, bad HGs, cracked block.....not a guy to take to Vegas with you!)


Marry me falcon, i wub joo long time

vincentm
11-29-11, 12:05 PM
Just for clarification, what you replaced in that link appear to be the main bearings, not the rod bearings.


You're correct, i'll fix that on the site

89falcon
11-29-11, 06:00 PM
Marry me falcon, i wub joo long time

HA!! As an AF Vet and pilot.....I've been to those places....:shhh:

IFlip,

There is no law against pulling off both heads before removing the block from the car......it might even make some of the brackets on the backside of the motor easier to get to....and putting it back in in one piece won't be as big of an issue as pulling it out in one piece since you won't have to deal with stuck bolts that you just can't get enough torque on. It'll also make pulling the AC compressor MUCH easier....and if your car was leaking much oil, the AC Compressor will seemingly be mounted in on a giant ball of grease....not fun to remove from the bottom by "feel" only......

iflipcars
11-29-11, 08:27 PM
Intake manifold is a dry unit and it does not involve coolant.

hehe, yes, my point exactly. I had standing coolant in my intake when I took it off the engine, was wondering how it might have made its way in there !! One theory would be that it sat for awhile, coolant seeped into the cylinders, then someone turned the car upside down for awhile ?? lol, hell if i know.

Ranger
11-29-11, 10:06 PM
HA!! As an AF Vet and pilot.....I've been to those places..
"I love you no shit G.I.. You buy me Saigon tea?"

maeng9981
11-30-11, 05:23 AM
hehe, yes, my point exactly. I had standing coolant in my intake when I took it off the engine, was wondering how it might have made its way in there !! One theory would be that it sat for awhile, coolant seeped into the cylinders, then someone turned the car upside down for awhile ?? lol, hell if i know.

It could be failed crossover gaskets which leaks coolant into EGR passage. This could cause a false HG diagnosis.

ternstes
11-30-11, 09:07 AM
Wouldn't failed crossover gaskets just leak externally? The EGR and coolant passages are separate.

Ranger
11-30-11, 12:16 PM
Yup. Never heard of a crossover being mistaken for a HG failure. No way for crossover coolant to get into the intake.

maeng9981
11-30-11, 01:37 PM
I read Johnny Kannapo's post a while ago: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/231696-coolant-leaking.html#post2612472

Looks like before 00 there are two EGR holes above the coolant passage and if the gasket fails like the one Johnny Kannapo's second picture, it sounds possible.

00+s have a different design as witnessed with my engine.

ternstes
12-01-11, 07:41 AM
You are right, the pre-2000 crossover upper gasket area is different. I suppose those ports where there in earlier engines in case the EGR passages needed cleaning? The spot on the cylinder head they mate to goes nowhere.

iflipcars
12-02-11, 10:37 PM
Got my FSM in the mail, very nice DVD it is. It installs VMware player, which has xp on it which has the service manual installed on it. Funny part is that the alternate engine removal procedure is an exact match to what alldatadiy.com has .... oh well, i guess its confirmed !! This manual is much easier to peruse though...sometimes finding what you want on DIY is not intuitive.

I'm lazy tonight, lil mad at myself, but all day tomorrow is ENGINE removal day. If im not yanking it out by sundown, I'll be officially an "old lazy guy". Which means tomorrow when i see that testosterone info-mercial I might actually buy it .... :lies: :histeric::histeric:

vincentm
12-04-11, 10:32 AM
VMware? I work in IT and am very familiar with VMware and don't see why they'd do such a thing...

iflipcars
12-04-11, 01:42 PM
I also am an IT professional (mechanic was my past life). I found it strange also, but its a nice setup, and works well. Its just a player though, and the xp OS that it is running is stripped down, no start button, no win explorer etc.... All i can do is run the service manual which runs in IE
83390

iflipcars
12-04-11, 05:22 PM
Well, I'm stuck. Here are the steps around where I am stuck from the FSM


47. Remove the left motor mount to cradle.
48. Remove the post converter oxygen sensor heat shield.
49. Remove the pre-converter oxygen sensor electrical connector.
50. Remove the intermediate pipe hangers and the catalytic converter from the "Y" pipe.
51. Remove the right front engine to transmission brace.
52. Remove the transmission to cylinder head support from the transmission.
53. Remove the ground wire from the right side of the engine.
54. Remove the power steering pressure line retainer from the front of the engine.
55. Remove the left rear transmission to engine brace from the transmission.
56. Lower the vehicle.
57. Remove the left rear transmission to the engine brace.

I have no visual at all on the trans to cyl head support in step 52
The same problem for step 57. Where are these parts at ??

thanks in advance !! im looking for parts blowups now...

iflipcars
12-04-11, 06:18 PM
Ok, i found 2 of them (51 and 52). I'm still trying to find brace mentioned in # 55. (I found 51 and 52 by looking at pic given in procedure during the install phase)

thanks,

ternstes
12-04-11, 06:28 PM
Step 52 look at the rear cylinder head driver side lift bracket. The cylinder head to transmission brace attaches to the same stud bolts the lift support attaches to. There is one large bolt that secures the bracket to the trans. It is behind the steering gear and a bit of a pain to get to.

Step 57 I think can be viewed from the passenger wheel well. The trans to engine brace is on the middle-rear of the block, a bolt and a stud need to be removed from the transmission housing. 15mm socket and a long extension will get it.

vincentm
12-04-11, 08:34 PM
Gmpartsgiant.com is a great site for diagrams

edb150
12-04-11, 08:56 PM
You can contact me if you have any questions during your project. We have repaired 121 cars to date 847 878 5676 Joe

iflipcars
12-04-11, 10:06 PM
You can contact me if you have any questions during your project. We have repaired 121 cars to date 847 878 5676 Joe

Joe, that is really a nice gesture, and I just may do that. Here is my current status on all these engine braces.

83422

Working through the passenger side wheel area, I have taken the two bolts from the lower part of block that are vertical to each other and very easily accessible. The part of the same bracket that bolts to the transmission loops over the top of the transmission cone and has a stud with a nut on each side. I removed the nut from the side closest to engine which revealed a heat shield that slides over that stud, which i didn't want to bend to hell so I followed it to the other side of the trans cone. I took the nut off the stud on that side (Green circle in picture), and found by accident the "trans to cylinder head brace". It is slid over the stud there. I have followed that to the cylinder head with my hand ...but omg, that will be for tomorrow to get that (Yellow circle in pic). Once that is off, the heat shield will be movable, allowing me to remove both studs.

Still working through the passenger wheel area, I removed the 15mm bolt (Red circle in pic)

The trans to oil pan brace was removed, that one was simple.

I believe the brace that is supposed to be on the left side (front of car) between engine and transmission is missing. The cradle mount in front is missing the nut on the stud coming out of block, transmission side. I just see nothing at all in this vicinity. The area is completely cleared out (condenser is out also) so i can see the area just fine, no braces there.

Thanks to one of the previous posters, working from the top of car near the lift brace on rear cylinder head near transmission, i removed the stud/bolt from the cylinder head. This was holding a bracket that slips underneath the exhaust manifold and goes somewhere....another task for tomorrow, find where that goes.

Were having fun now eh !!! ??? lol I'm beat, I actually can't believe my hands aren't bleeding at all !!:yup:

iflipcars
12-04-11, 10:07 PM
Gmpartsgiant.com is a great site for diagrams

Thanks vincentm, heading there now !!

iflipcars
12-04-11, 10:42 PM
Vincent, you aren't kidding man, great diagrams this one (http://www.genmotorinfo.com/FullImage.aspx?ccId=383517752&ppId=497397949&ppInfo=1998-1999+E%2cKD%2cTransmission+Converter+Shields%2c%26 +Mounting+-+6M00032) answers all my questions !!

thanks !! :worship::worship:

vincentm
12-05-11, 01:03 PM
Glad i can be of some help :), now we just need pics of this project

iflipcars
12-05-11, 10:16 PM
Well, tomorrow its coming out. I stopped tonight at the point where bellhousing bolts come out, then its hoist time. You all wanna see pics of a topless northstar sitting in the car? ....hmmm that sounded kinky....

Tomorrow pics for sure, when engine is dangling, disassembly etc....

iflipcars
12-07-11, 11:34 PM
Engine is out !! Here are some pics, nothing too exciting yet, its just sitting on the floor right now :)

THE PICS (https://picasaweb.google.com/109317003354825715080/98DevilleProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCOb21vmp58SULw#)

vincentm
12-08-11, 12:37 PM
Congrats!

turbonut
12-08-11, 01:03 PM
Thanks for sharing, i'll be doing the same on my 98 in a few weeks

maeng9981
12-08-11, 11:43 PM
Nice pictures. Congratulations!

stoveguyy
12-10-11, 03:08 PM
some folks take off heads in car. i have asked before how they hold up motor block in car with heads off since the motor mounts attach to heads? yes you pulled motor but your illustrations show the brackets bolted to heads.

iflipcars
12-10-11, 11:54 PM
some folks take off heads in car. i have asked before how they hold up motor block in car with heads off since the motor mounts attach to heads? yes you pulled motor but your illustrations show the brackets bolted to heads.

The front mount on car slips on two studs on block, and has a brace that comes up and attaches to the head. The rear head has one little brace that bolts to head and to rear transmission cone stud. See pics i refer to above from vincentm to see what I mean.

----------

Ok folks, I'm worried now. Please go look at these pics (https://picasaweb.google.com/109317003354825715080/EngineDisassembly?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-p7YG62tDObw#) and tell me what you think. I added captions to the pics also.

Im seriously worried about the right (front) head. It has rusty cams, and the biggest worry for me is that when I looked at combustion chamber, ALL valves were closed ! All of them. However, the motor spun fine. I spun it a bunch by hand with plugs out to line up timing marks and it spins easy. I'm not sure how the valves function on these heads yet, going to go do some research on that. If they are equipped with hydraulic assemblies of some sort on top of valve before cam lobe, could these be completely collapsed? This has me stumped to hell, and worried more than a little.

The left (rear) head showed none of the signs that scared me on the right head. The left had no rust and valves were all at different amounts of openness, normal.

Cadillac techies, all input is greatly appreciated !!! :banghead::bonkers::banghead:

89falcon
12-11-11, 12:06 AM
The front mount on car slips on two studs on block, and has a brace that comes up and attaches to the head. The rear head has one little brace that bolts to head and to rear transmission cone stud. See pics i refer to above from vincentm to see what I mean.

----------

Ok folks, I'm worried now. Please go look at these pics (https://picasaweb.google.com/109317003354825715080/EngineDisassembly?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-p7YG62tDObw#) and tell me what you think. I added captions to the pics also.

Im seriously worried about the right (front) head. It has rusty cams, and the biggest worry for me is that when I looked at combustion chamber, ALL valves were closed ! All of them. However, the motor spun fine. I spun it a bunch by hand with plugs out to line up timing marks and it spins easy. I'm not sure how the valves function on these heads yet, going to go do some research on that. If they are equipped with hydraulic assemblies of some sort on top of valve before cam lobe, could these be completely collapsed? This has me stumped to hell, and worried more than a little.

The left (rear) head showed none of the signs that scared me on the right head. The left had no rust and valves were all at different amounts of openness, normal.

Cadillac techies, all input is greatly appreciated !!! :banghead::bonkers::banghead:

Nothing cosmic about the valves and lifters.......think Small block chevy....the cam lobes push against the lifters....the only difference is that instead of the lifter then pushing the pushrods, it cuts out the middle man and pushes open the valve....

to work properly, they need to be full of oil.....and have oil pressure...

and the lifters are MUCH bigger than the ones on a SBC.....:thumbsup:

iflipcars
12-11-11, 12:22 AM
Nothing cosmic about the valves and lifters.......think Small block chevy....the cam lobes push against the lifters....the only difference is that instead of the lifter then pushing the pushrods, it cuts out the middle man and pushes open the valve....

to work properly, they need to be full of oil.....and have oil pressure...

and the lifters are MUCH bigger than the ones on a SBC.....:thumbsup:

Falcon, are you saying I shouldn't be worried that all the lifters are collapsed on this head? no worries?

89falcon
12-11-11, 12:33 PM
Falcon, are you saying I shouldn't be worried that all the lifters are collapsed on this head? no worries?

I'd be much more worried about the rust. With the metal on metal friction between the cams and lifters, if either surface gets just a little rough, it will wear....and it will wear FAST. and after looking at the position of the cams in the pictures, not sure any of the valves SHOULD be open much......once you take the chains off, the cam will turn to the nearest "minimum pressure point".....ie with the valves as closed as possible. The lifters will collapse a little bit with no oil pressure.....and that coupled with the position of the cams gives you all the valves very close to closed on that head....looking at the cams in your picture, the ONLY valves that should be open are the intake valves next to the WP drive.

I understand not replacing the lifters given the price of new ones, but I consider polishing them.....

Ranger? Sub?.....is that an acceptable thing to do? polish the surface of the cam lobes and lifters?

iflipcars
12-11-11, 12:49 PM
I'd be much more worried about the rust. With the metal on metal friction between the cams and lifters, if either surface gets just a little rough, it will wear....and it will wear FAST. and after looking at the position of the cams in the pictures, not sure any of the valves SHOULD be open much......once you take the chains off, the cam will turn to the nearest "minimum pressure point".....ie with the valves as closed as possible. The lifters will collapse a little bit with no oil pressure.....and that coupled with the position of the cams gives you all the valves very close to closed on that head....looking at the cams in your picture, the ONLY valves that should be open are the intake valves next to the WP drive.

I understand not replacing the lifters given the price of new ones, but I consider polishing them.....

Ranger? Sub?.....is that an acceptable thing to do? polish the surface of the cam lobes and lifters?

Thanks for the reply Falcon :bouncy: I see what you mean about the cam position. I will look with a clear head today and see if the valves open at all with a little cam movement. My worry concerning the rust is HOW they got rusty. Rust means water was present, aka coolant. How is coolant getting into the valve area? Only two ways that I can see 1)Amazing pressures blasting coolant in chamber back through valve seal, which is somewhat ridiculous, it would just go up the runner....2) CRACKED HEAD

Am I nuts? I'm going to clean it well today and look at it closely for cracks. If I don't find anything I think I have to have this head checked out.

Ranger
12-11-11, 02:16 PM
I haven't been following this thread very closely. Just saw the picture of the cam. WOW! I can't imagine how it got that rusty. When was the last time that thing was run? It almost looked like just light oxidation in which case you MIGHT get away with polishing them, but I am far from an expert so don't go on my word.

iflipcars
01-15-12, 10:36 AM
UPDATE !

The engine has been tapped, norms serts installed, all re-assembled and installed in car. The engine fired up on first turn of key (after spinning for a bit with no spark to prime oil system). It was a bit clicky for a few minutes but quieted down beautifully. I was quite happy with my work.....until I looked under the car after it was running for 10minutes or so. I have a significant oil leak from the rear main seal area. Oil is dripping at about a drip per second rate once it gets flowing. Since I didn't split the block, I can't tell if its coming from the rear main or if it is coming from the split case in the rear of the engine. Since the case is seaping also on the sides of the engine its really unknown at this point. I never even took the flywheel off, and I'm really kicking myself for that....arghhhh.

The only good thing is that I can pull the engine out 3x as fast since I have done it once.....but really, this sucks !!

tateos
01-19-12, 08:05 PM
Sounds like everyone's nightmare.

Did you install the new "cartridge" design rear main seal, and if so, did you use the special tool?

iflipcars
01-19-12, 10:21 PM
tateos,

I have the oil manifold gasket here and ready, and the J38817 tool on its way (the other thread about rear main confusion is mine !!). I'm going to install the first design of the rear seal (rubber lip style) and hope for the best, mostly because I already ordered the J38817 tool. I have the engine out and on stand again. The seal that is on the engine now is the first design, rubber lip type, so it should work fine, right ? <<<does that even make sense? I mean, it is leaking like a bad sphincter....>>>

If that is not going to work, then for the love of all that is holy, please tell me now !!

tateos
01-19-12, 11:22 PM
The lip seal is what originally came on the car (I think - not sure when they switched to the new design), so it should work fine - at least in the short term. The new design should be better, but like you said, you already have the other tool - I'm not even sure why you would need a special tool for the original design seal...but maybe you do? It seems like you could just tap it in carefully with a drift punch, like any other similar seal. The new design seal is 2 parts - an inner seal that presses onto and therefore later constantly rotates with the large crankshaft output flange, and the other part that presses into the block cavity and remains stationary. I don't think you could cheat and not use the special tool to install that one - I certainly wasn't going to try - even at well over $200 cost!

iflipcars
06-13-12, 01:02 AM
UPDATE:

The engine has been completely disassembled, resealed, installed and RUNS GREAT. Not a leak anywhere. I love the car, and am selling my Cobalt ! I was told in this forum not to touch the lower end of the engine, and that was terrible advice it turns out. I would tell anyone that takes their northstar engine out for HG repair to tear down the engine to bare block, insert the mains (or stud them), reseal the case using ultra-grey, install a new rear main seal....and be happy. This engine runs like a dream now for about 1000miles....and I anticipate no problems. I can't even tell its running....until I punch it, and it tries to throw me in the ditch !! :) Car pulls HARD !!

I'm now in search of a 96-99 model with the 300hp engine !!...and a HG problem of course :)

thanks all

Faded Crest
06-13-12, 01:42 AM
I'm now in search of a 96-99 model with the 300hp engine !!...and a HG problem of course :)

thanks all

Very cool. I was wondering how things turned out for you. As for another project, you should have no hard time finding one.... :rolleyes:

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 01:50 AM
Congratulations on a job well done.