: TSB for front wheels "crabbing" under full lock at slow speeds?



translux
10-19-11, 02:29 PM
Not sure if crabbing is the right term but under full lock, slow speeds and wet, usually backing out of a parking space it feels like the front wheels are almost dragging
I know this was described here before with a solution, maybe replace rear differential fluid?? But I can't find the post.
I want to bring in her in for service and want to be armed with some info.
Any help on this is much appreciated.

Thanks
E

e6t
10-19-11, 02:35 PM
its the PS2s fault.

no issue.

smackdownCTSV
10-19-11, 02:43 PM
Wheel click tsb or rear diff oil tsb?

translux
10-19-11, 02:57 PM
Rear diff
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/230277-like-night-day.html

smackdownCTSV
10-19-11, 03:25 PM
Sounds different, but this?

#10-04-20-001B: Rear Axle Clunk and/or Chatter Type Noise on Turns (Drain/Refill Rear Differential Fluid) - (Apr 21, 2010)
Subject: Rear Axle Clunk and/or Chatter Type Noise on Turns (Drain/Refill Rear Differential Fluid)

Models: 2003-2010 Cadillac CTS, Sport Wagon (Including V-Series and Export)
2004-2009 Cadillac SRX (Including Export)
2005-2010 Cadillac STS (Including V-Series and Export)
Equipped with Limited Slip Differential (RPO G80)

Condition
Some customers may comment on a clunk and/or chatter type noise from the rear of the vehicle while making turns.

This condition may be worse on vehicles built prior to the 2008 model year. Carbon-faced clutch plates were introduced into production in the 2008 model year and have decreased the likelihood of the clutch plate chatter.

Cause
This condition may be caused by slip/stick of the posi-traction clutch plates due to insufficient limited-slip axle additive. As plates slip and stick, a jumping or jerking feel occurs accompanied by a clunk noise.

Correction
Important: DO NOT remove the differential cover. It is not necessary to flush the old fluid from the differential.

Drain and refill the rear differential with fluid, GM P/N 88862624 (in Canada, 88862625). Refer to the Axle Lubricant Change procedure in SI.

This fluid includes a friction modifier already added with a different formulation that lasts longer and does not break down over time.

Without Differential Oil Cooler
1.10 L
1.16 qt

With Differential Oil Cooler
1.41 L
1.50 qt

Parts Information
Part Number

88862624 (US -1 qt)

Cub Cadet
10-19-11, 03:28 PM
I think that you do not have an issue at all. This is the design of the front end and this is what it will do. There is no change for this, nor a need to change it.

shade
10-19-11, 04:18 PM
Its the Ps2's.
Hankook V12's dont do it

translux
10-19-11, 04:32 PM
I think that you do not have an issue at all. This is the design of the front end and this is what it will do. There is no change for this, nor a need to change it.
You could be right, I remember a similar issue with my M5 but this is much, much worse.
And from GAGS-V2 post I think there might be something to try
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/230277-like-night-day.html

Tedboss1
10-20-11, 05:36 PM
This thread talks about the "clunk" with PS2 tires:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/195124-new-tires-no-clunk-full-lock.html#post2185099

wetcoast
10-21-11, 06:19 PM
It's the tires scrubbing due to the suspension geometry. There's nothing you can do nor is it a real problem

smackdownCTSV
10-21-11, 11:06 PM
I just noticed this too while reversing with the wheel cut 3/4.

GAGS-V2
10-22-11, 12:06 AM
Hi translux,
Don't let ANY of these posters tell you it is "normal"! Whatever they feel is NOT what I felt (and now , probably you) if they think it's "normal". I've had many vehicles and never had anything like that nor have I ever felt it in any other vehicle I have rode in. As I said in my (much) earlier post, the rear diff. oil change made such a HUGE difference I really could not believe it.
So, for those of you that say it's "normal", I call B.S.! NO ONE would buy these cars if it was like how my car was when new.

Prof
10-22-11, 08:06 AM
It's the tires scrubbing due to the suspension geometry. There's nothing you can do nor is it a real problem


Exactly.

It's geometry, plain and simple... well, maybe a little bit of solid added in...

mrl859
10-23-11, 08:15 AM
It is absolutely normal and camber/toe in geometry related. ALL cars do it to some degree (you should pardon the pun) and it is more prevalent on different surfaces. It is exacerbated by the wider tires.

GAGS-V2
10-24-11, 02:00 AM
Well, you guys can go on and on about it being "normal". I'm just telling you mine WAS NOT normal when new! My service manager said it was not normal either, anybody that rode in the car said it was not "normal". So, what I'm thinking is that guys who DO NOT have the problem some of us had (have) are chiming in here that have NO IDEA of what we are talking about. My advice? If it does not feel right, it's NOT! Mine was not and now it is...As I said before, it's night and day. Mine was so bad, I would have turned the car in if that was "normal"!

Prof
10-24-11, 06:05 AM
I wrote a sweet retort to post #15 above...but I will pass the opening, in the interests of forum decorum.:halo:

marktanner
10-24-11, 08:26 AM
While the effect is potentially frightening to the uninitiated, it is indeed normal for the front-end geometry of the CTS, and not just the V series, either. It does seem to be limited to the Michelin PS2 tire, however. It happened to me first with my '08 CTS with FE3 suspension, that came with 235/50 ZR 18 PS2s. The first time it happened, it was cold and at full lock, and I took the car in to the dealer thinking something was seriously wrong. They could find nothing wrong. The phenomenon continued through the winter, mostly at full lock, then lessened as spring progressed, until I traded for the V.

The issue was more marked in the V, occurring at warmer temps and at less than full lock. It also got worse as the tires got worn, occurring with less lock and even during the summer, until I replaced the PS2s with Continental Extreme D/Ws. Problem solved! No more crabbing, not even a trace! Not even at full lock with temps in the 30's.

I believe the '08 did it less because of the narrower footprint and taller sidewall than the tires on the V. Interestingly, Cadillac changed to Continentals for he FE3 suspension in the base CTS when it changed to 19 inch wheels and tires. I can only speculate that the problem I encountered with my '08 would have been worse with the PS2s and 245/45 19 sizing.

I can only speculate that Cadillac is reluctant to change the tires on the V due to the large number of modifications that Michelin made to the PS2 for the spec V2 tire, vs the standard PS2 construction.

mrl859
10-24-11, 08:53 AM
Well, you guys can go on and on about it being "normal". I'm just telling you mine WAS NOT normal when new! My service manager said it was not normal either, anybody that rode in the car said it was not "normal". So, what I'm thinking is that guys who DO NOT have the problem some of us had (have) are chiming in here that have NO IDEA of what we are talking about. My advice? If it does not feel right, it's NOT! Mine was not and now it is...As I said before, it's night and day. Mine was so bad, I would have turned the car in if that was "normal"!If memory serves, yours was due to a problem in the rear differential. That should have been felt from the rear, not the front. The O.P. should have it checked to confirm if it is normal or abnormal. Either way , "Lighten up, Francis".

mrl859
10-24-11, 08:59 AM
I can only speculate that Cadillac is reluctant to change the tires on the V due to the large number of modifications that Michelin made to the PS2 for the spec V2 tire, vs the standard PS2 construction.How does one differentiate between the standard PS2 and the V2 spec PS2?

Kadonny
10-24-11, 09:34 AM
Well, you guys can go on and on about it being "normal". I'm just telling you mine WAS NOT normal when new! My service manager said it was not normal either, anybody that rode in the car said it was not "normal". So, what I'm thinking is that guys who DO NOT have the problem some of us had (have) are chiming in here that have NO IDEA of what we are talking about. My advice? If it does not feel right, it's NOT! Mine was not and now it is...As I said before, it's night and day. Mine was so bad, I would have turned the car in if that was "normal"!

What the OP is referring to does not sound like your issue. The OP issue has to do with the PS2s, colder/cooler weather and what I call "chattering" of the tires. If you replace the PS2s with other tires this symptom goes away completely.

Your issue is with the rear diff. There are some minor rear diff issues that changing the fluid seems to fix. Either way, both issues are not all that serious.....if at all.

wetcoast
10-24-11, 11:32 AM
Well, you guys can go on and on about it being "normal". I'm just telling you mine WAS NOT normal when new! My service manager said it was not normal either, anybody that rode in the car said it was not "normal". So, what I'm thinking is that guys who DO NOT have the problem some of us had (have) are chiming in here that have NO IDEA of what we are talking about. My advice? If it does not feel right, it's NOT! Mine was not and now it is...As I said before, it's night and day. Mine was so bad, I would have turned the car in if that was "normal"!

My 300C SRT did it and so does the Caddy. It's more noticeable when the tires are cold. The suspension is optimized for forward motion. For example, the front tires are toe-in to ensure that your car drives in a straight line forward.

81981

When in reverse the tires want to pull against each other and when turning the camber loads up one tire more than the other.
81982
The result is the scrubbing effect you feel when the tire is forced to slip out across the asphalt.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/sstp_1004_camber_caster_toe_wheel_alignment/index.html

GAGS-V2
10-27-11, 01:10 AM
Well, my name is not Francis and I think I was very light in my saying those that don't have a clue should remain silent.

I had the problem that the original poster was talking about. My front wheels "crabbed" so bad when parking it rocked the car. Not just a little either, it was so bad is was embarrassing. Passengers were asking "what's wrong with your car"? I live in So/Cal. and people kept telling me to wait until it got warm. It was above 80 out here at the time. Also, it did not matter what the temp was, it was a bad issue. It was fixed when the service manager and his top tech took a ride in it, they both looked at each other and said "rear diff." They replaced the fluid and I have not had the problem since.

So, if you don't like the ride and "crabbing", ask your dealer. If you enjoy being told that it's "normal", well listen to some of the know it all's on this board.

Is that a light enough way, Francis?

mberisha
10-27-11, 04:07 AM
Hi Francis!

marktanner
10-27-11, 07:09 AM
As far as the PS2 OE fitment goes, according to the Tire Rack, the V tires are labeled 96Y for the fronts and 99Y for the rears, and the set is currently $128 cheaper than the standard PS2s per set. They are listed as OE, vs the normal PS2. According to the Michelin man at the V Performance Driving Lab at Road Atlanta, these tires have an extra cord in the bead, plus modified sidewalls, all to deal with the heavy weight of the car, transfer the power to the pavement, and still ride well.

Kadonny
10-27-11, 11:45 AM
Well, my name is not Francis and I think I was very light in my saying those that don't have a clue should remain silent.

I had the problem that the original poster was talking about. My front wheels "crabbed" so bad when parking it rocked the car. Not just a little either, it was so bad is was embarrassing. Passengers were asking "what's wrong with your car"? I live in So/Cal. and people kept telling me to wait until it got warm. It was above 80 out here at the time. Also, it did not matter what the temp was, it was a bad issue. It was fixed when the service manager and his top tech took a ride in it, they both looked at each other and said "rear diff." They replaced the fluid and I have not had the problem since.

So, if you don't like the ride and "crabbing", ask your dealer. If you enjoy being told that it's "normal", well listen to some of the know it all's on this board.

Is that a light enough way, Francis?

Wait a minute, let me get this straight. The changing of fluid in your rear diff made your front tires stop crabbing? How is that remotely possible.

And yes, if your car is crabbing the front tires in 80 degree weather, you have another problem. Most of us are specifically talking about the PS2s and cold weather meaning 40 degrees and colder weather, not 80 and colder, but I don't think you referenced where you live and what weather conditions you were experiencing when you first posted...but I could be wrong.

wetcoast
10-27-11, 12:16 PM
Well, my name is not Francis and I think I was very light in my saying those that don't have a clue should remain silent.

I had the problem that the original poster was talking about. My front wheels "crabbed" so bad when parking it rocked the car. Not just a little either, it was so bad is was embarrassing. Passengers were asking "what's wrong with your car"? I live in So/Cal. and people kept telling me to wait until it got warm. It was above 80 out here at the time. Also, it did not matter what the temp was, it was a bad issue. It was fixed when the service manager and his top tech took a ride in it, they both looked at each other and said "rear diff." They replaced the fluid and I have not had the problem since.

So, if you don't like the ride and "crabbing", ask your dealer. If you enjoy being told that it's "normal", well listen to some of the know it all's on this board.

Is that a light enough way, Francis?

You need to settle down! Everyone here is just trying to help with the experiences they have had.

The OP said "under full lock, slow speeds and wet, usually backing out of a parking space it feels like the front wheels are almost dragging" which is exactly what I've seen and is explained by my explanation.

You offered your explanation. It's up to the OP to make his decision. No need to be snide.

mrl859
10-27-11, 02:18 PM
Well, my name is not Francis and I think I was very light in my saying those that don't have a clue should remain silent.I'd like to apologize. My 33 year ongoing career in new car dealership service departments has apparently given me no clue. I agree that the O.P. should get it checked. I stand by my opinion that is going to be normal front tire crabbing, especially on asphalt. I shall remain silent.

BTW, rent a copy of the movie "Stripes".

mrl859
10-27-11, 02:59 PM
Well, you guys can go on and on about it being "normal". I'm just telling you mine WAS NOT normal when new! My service manager said it was not normal either, anybody that rode in the car said it was not "normal". So, what I'm thinking is that guys who DO NOT have the problem some of us had (have) are chiming in here that have NO IDEA of what we are talking about. My advice? If it does not feel right, it's NOT! Mine was not and now it is...As I said before, it's night and day. Mine was so bad, I would have turned the car in if that was "normal"!Okay, just one more thing before I go silent (yeah, right):When making posts like this, you are going to irk people. None of us know if the poster we are responding to is a nuclear physicist, automototive engineer for a manufacturer, wiki-know it all, or street urchin. Just something to consider when posting things like "NO IDEA" and "no clue". Going silent................for now.