: Time for a CTSV



junker87
10-16-11, 02:20 AM
Hi, first post here. I have been on lots of car forums, and ever since I can drive, I have always wanted, and later, blessed to have fast cars.

Except my first car, a POS 86 300ZX that broke down on me all the time, I have had an E36 M3 sedan, E36 M3 coupe, E46 M3 coupe, E30 325is, 996 Turbo, 996 GT2, S4 Avant, E39 M5, and the latest, E90 M3 sedan.

After the hassle of selling cars that we own so we can get into another car, the V will be a lease car.

Since both my wife and I are stick shift only drivers, and since we got one of the last few E90 M3 sedan's, my option for a new RWD family car with manual and good power are severely limited.

Actually, that's an understatement. At present time, the V's are the only option that I have if I wanted a RWD family car with good power and manual. F10 M5 is vaporware right now, and aside from it, there is nothing. That is quite a sad state of affairs for enthusiasts who got married and had kids but didn't want to give up on the joy driving.

I went with the mrs and checked out a V coupe with Recaro seats and alcantara wheels and shifters, and if you didn't see the Cadillac emblem on the steering wheel, you could easily mistaken it for something German, which is a great thing. There are still a few little things that you can tell were the results of last minute conference call denies by the accountants, like the fact that the trunk lining material is the same as the Chevy Malibu and not something from comparable Audi, BMW, and MB supplier. But, those things are so minor compare to the first gen V that this car is now a serious competitor to the Germans, which is awesome. Because, hey, as the dying breed of family folk enthusiats, the more choices of RWD manual sedans/wagons with power, the better.

I am deciding between the sedan and the Vagon. The sedan, because it is a little bigger than the E39 M5 in the rear seat area, way bigger in the trunk, and truck load more power. The Vagon, because it is an awesomely unique car like my old funky yellow S4 Avant manual.

We saw a non V wagon, and really were not terribly impressed by the rear folding seats design, the cargo divider net contraption, and the rear area in general. I thought those were really low rent. I am trying to find a Vagon in LA somewhere that I can check out to help out my decision making process. Autotrader seems to suggest that there is nothing in LA anywhere...

I am a patient man, I waited 4 months for my 996 Turbo, 3 months for the E46 M3, and 4 months for the last of the E90 M3 sedan, so I don't mind waiting to get exactly what I want. Many dealers in LA seem to be shocked that I don't mind the wait after trying to push the autotragic version on me.

It is too bad that the Caddy doesn't have a nice, bright red color for the V, because that would have been my first choice. Being a bright color car guy with yellow Turbo, GT2, S4 Avant, and now the red M3 sedan. So, it looks like I would be doing the following:

Black diamond
Black Graphite
Yellow caliper
Manual
Recaro

No, I am not getting a sunroof. Even though I am only 6'2," I have 32" inseam, which makes it very difficult to sit HPDE driving position (which is what I am used to from years of HPDE back when I was single) in a sunroofed car. The regular CTS sedan with no sunroof that I sat in had about 2 inches of headroom for me. But from reading the forum, it seems that it might work out better for me anyway, since the sunroof seems to make a lot of noises.

One of the worse thing about owning a Porsche or BMW in LA is the dearth of good dealer service department. I finally found one with BMW, but I know less than nothing about Cadillac service in LA. I am still reading through the forum, but if anyone has a tip on where to take the V for service in LA, it is greatly appreciated.

That's all for now. I am excited to wade into unfamiliar water. And since my FIL works at GM, I am sure this would improve my cred with him now that I am looking to get American and not another "fern car..."

SoCalCTSV
10-16-11, 01:03 PM
I couldn't even find a dealership in So Cal to acknowledge me. I live in Agoura" I we referred to James Quinn in Michgan and my car is being built next week with delivery early Nov. I am having it delivered to Bunnin in Oxnard cause they were the only dealer that didn't want $1000 for PDI. I work in Century City and live near Silver Star Westlake. I really havent made up my mind where I will have maintenance done. I'm 6'3" with the same inseam and have no problem with headroom with a sunroof on a coupe when I test drove one.

Mine is a Black Raven Coupe, Ebony interior, Satin Graphite wheels with yellow calipers, Recaros, sunroof, wood trim and suede wheel and knob. I'm replacing an SUV daily driver and will take turns with my 66 Chevelle for my commute.

Squirlz
10-16-11, 02:54 PM
Sounds like we have the same taste, except I got the roof.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6198/6112567509_238b9ffacd_z.jpg

It will be difficult to find a manual sitting around waiting for a test drive. They pretty much make them to order, especially the wagon. I've never driven a BMW (unless you count our MINI Coopers) but I think this car is incredible. It was quite an extravagant purchase for us but I convinced the wife that we needed to get one before GM came to their senses and quit building it or raised the price!

elphil
10-16-11, 10:04 PM
junker 87, the CTS-V's Crystal Red doesn't have enough pop for you? http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/155416-pics-delivered-cts-vs-here-32.html

elphil
10-16-11, 10:04 PM
junker 87, the CTS-V's Crystal Red doesn't have enough pop for you?

Double post, hit the wrong button.

junker87
10-16-11, 10:28 PM
i prefer the solid red like the Porsche Guards red, BMW Imola or Melbourne red, or the Audi Misano red.

For the V, it's probably going to be black or gray. Just not digging that pale metallic red that I saw in the showroom.

junker87
10-16-11, 10:46 PM
Sounds like we have the same taste, except I got the roof.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6198/6112567509_238b9ffacd_z.jpg

It will be difficult to find a manual sitting around waiting for a test drive. They pretty much make them to order, especially the wagon. I've never driven a BMW (unless you count our MINI Coopers) but I think this car is incredible. It was quite an extravagant purchase for us but I convinced the wife that we needed to get one before GM came to their senses and quit building it or raised the price!

Nice! I think that's how I would spec mine if I decided to get the vagon.

Would you mind posting some interior shots in the cargo and the rear seat area? Much appreciated!

SilveradoSS
10-17-11, 02:14 AM
i prefer the solid red like the Porsche Guards red, BMW Imola or Melbourne red, or the Audi Misano red.

For the V, it's probably going to be black or gray. Just not digging that pale metallic red that I saw in the showroom.

I don't know if I would call this pale.....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/autoguy/Lehigh-20111009-00499.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/autoguy/Mahwah-20111008-00482.jpg

junker87
10-17-11, 02:59 AM
Thanks for posting pictures of the red. Maybe pale is not the right word, but surely you have seen the solid reds that I mentioned from Porsche, Audi, and BMW. And this is not it. Nothing wrong with the red from Cadillac, just not what I would want on my car.

Squirlz
10-17-11, 06:28 PM
Nice! I think that's how I would spec mine if I decided to get the vagon.

Would you mind posting some interior shots in the cargo and the rear seat area? Much appreciated!

I will get some pictures soon.

Cub Cadet
10-18-11, 02:07 PM
I would not stray away from the sunroof... you will read the negatives on here, but you will find more that have had no issues with them. I love my sunroof and would not have the car (sedan) without it.

DrVolkl
10-19-11, 01:12 PM
Interesting read, as I'm kinda in the same boat. I'm leaning towards the Vagon as well, 6spd, etc etc. I think I'm going with white. I love black cars when they're clean but that seems to be an chore in itself. The new opulant blue is nice, but after seeing it in person I just don't like it enough... there just seems to be something off.... can't put my finger on it.

So anyhow, I think a white car with the black rims/yellow calipers will look pretty darn good. Tint and some blacked out grilles/badges from D3 and it'll be good to go.

e6t
10-19-11, 03:57 PM
dont do it.

sry guys.

DrVolkl
10-19-11, 07:40 PM
dont do it.

sry guys.

Elaborate?

junker87
10-19-11, 07:46 PM
Well, I had ASSumed that the CTS-V would have rear power sunshade and manual side shades, which is important for us folks with kids.

BMW, Audi, and Benz have had this feature since back in the 80's, I don't know why this is not available in the CTS-V.

It is not an expensive option, all three of those German car makers charge abotu 500 bucks for this. I am really surprised since CTS-V is directly aimed at the M5, and this options has been available since the E34 M5 days (though in the U.S. only E39 and E60 M5's).

I do not want to tint my windows, because I do not want to draw attention from the police. Countless cop friends and acquaintances have told me that an aftermarket exhuast and some tint makes you stand out like nobody's business.

It's really interesting what options get to survive the accountants axe at GM and what don't. It looks like side body plastic molding, trunk liner, and the sunshades from better quality supplier got the axe. Too bad, since they would not have added that much cost to an already expensive car. As in, do you think people who are looking at this car would care that the trunk liner costs an additional 200 bucks, or they would have to pay $500 for the sunshades?

Overall though, I am excited and happy at the direction Cadillac is going with the CTSV line, and I am impressed by the large quality improvement that has been made from the time of the first gen CTS-V to the V2.

e6t
10-19-11, 09:44 PM
Elaborate?

i have a similar background to OP.

i bought the CTSV because i wanted a manual and a ton of power. it was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned and i've owned some raging pieces of shit. im talking Saabs and Land Rovers...

My car was repurchased by GM and I went back to BMW. The only thing I miss is the crazy, seductive, addictive power... to the point of considering trying again... then I wake up. I will drive an f10 m5 and either go with that, a Dinan 550 xdrive or possibly an cls 63 or e63... im also considering a panamera s.

My only experience with these cars is what I read on here as well as the V I owned as well as the 2010 V my partner owns (that sucked me in in the first place) which is also an enormous piece of shit.

the car is so close to being great, but so close can also be so far.

I'd hate to see a fella get into a leased V with the hopes of it comparing to porsches, audis and bmws only to be TERRIBLY dissappointed. Cranking sideways on the highway at 70mph can only cast a shadow on awful build quality so often...

SoCalCTSV
10-19-11, 11:55 PM
I didnt buy his car cause I wanted sun shades.

junker87
10-20-11, 01:06 AM
Well, at the end of the day, it is still a sedan. And part of the utility of any sedan is hauling people, in this case, my two small kids.

The things i mentioned in this thread are what is stopping the V2 from being a no excuse competitor to the other rwd fast manual sedans of the world.

But, since F10 M5 is vaporware right now, I am looking forward to a two year lease with the V2.

I am a car guy, no fanboi.

junker87
10-20-11, 01:23 AM
I couldn't even find a dealership in So Cal to acknowledge me. I live in Agoura" I we referred to James Quinn in Michgan and my car is being built next week with delivery early Nov. I am having it delivered to Bunnin in Oxnard cause they were the only dealer that didn't want $1000 for PDI. I work in Century City and live near Silver Star Westlake. I really havent made up my mind where I will have maintenance done. I'm 6'3" with the same inseam and have no problem with headroom with a sunroof on a coupe when I test drove one.

Mine is a Black Raven Coupe, Ebony interior, Satin Graphite wheels with yellow calipers, Recaros, sunroof, wood trim and sude wheel and knob. I'm replacing an SUV daily driver and will take turns with my 66 Chevelle for my commute.

I am working with James now, he's really awesome.

I am realy hoping i can find a good dealer to service my V2. This is the no fun part of owning a nice car of any brand in La, where dealers can't even spell customer service...

Squirlz
10-20-11, 01:56 AM
i have a similar background to OP.

i bought the CTSV because i wanted a manual and a ton of power. it was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned and i've owned some raging pieces of shit. im talking Saabs and Land Rovers...

My car was repurchased by GM and I went back to BMW. The only thing I miss is the crazy, seductive, addictive power... to the point of considering trying again... then I wake up. I will drive an f10 m5 and either go with that, a Dinan 550 xdrive or possibly an cls 63 or e63... im also considering a panamera s.

My only experience with these cars is what I read on here as well as the V I owned as well as the 2010 V my partner owns (that sucked me in in the first place) which is also an enormous piece of shit.

the car is so close to being great, but so close can also be so far.

I'd hate to see a fella get into a leased V with the hopes of it comparing to porsches, audis and bmws only to be TERRIBLY dissappointed. Cranking sideways on the highway at 70mph can only cast a shadow on awful build quality so often...

There is one of you on every car board I have ever been on. No car is perfect. Obviously lots of us like them and are not concerned with the exceptions.

SoCalCTSV
10-20-11, 02:12 AM
I am working with James now, he's really awesome.

I am realy hoping i can find a good dealer to service my V2. This is the no fun part of owning a nice car of any brand in La, where dealers can't even spell customer service...

James has my car on a transport and I expect it next weekend.

junker87
10-20-11, 02:20 AM
There is one of you on every car board I have ever been on. No car is perfect. Obviously lots of us like them and are not concerned with the exceptions.

BMW build quality was laughably bad in the two E36 M3's that i had. I am talking rubber window weather stripping falling out of the chassis, plastic trim piece above the glovebox falling off, and sunrof mechanism failing. The build quality of the 3 series really wasn't that good until late production E46.

My 996 GT2 and Turbo panel gaps were nothing to write home about.

The build quality of the V2 from my showroom observation is that they seem to be around that of the late E46 and E39 quality.

Certainly lemon happens in every brand, and hopefully I won't get a lemon. But to say that the V2 has awful build quality just isn't true.

junker87
10-20-11, 02:27 AM
James has my car on a transport and I expect it next weekend.

Congrats. Please do let me know how your experience with Bunin goes. I asked James about the two nameless dealers near me for courtesy delivery and he in his funny way told me to not even think about those two.:histeric:

Have you found a dealership for service yet?

Funny that you live in Agoura and work in Century City, I used to be just the opposite, live in Century City/Westwood and have an Agoura hills client. That drive from the 101 into the Westside must be brutal.

SoCalCTSV
10-20-11, 08:39 AM
It's 60 miles round trip and I leave at 5:15 am an get there in about 35 minutes. Going home is a little more but sometimes and likely more now, I do the Coast and up Kanan. I like driving. It's therapy.

I may try out Silverstar in Westlake for service just for the convenience, but will keep a close leash. They cater to a pretty picky crowd so I am not too worried about the basics with them. I'm trying to get over to Bunnin to watch them unload and prep the car. We'll see. James is a rare breed.

e6t
10-20-11, 10:50 AM
i am OBVIOUSLY biased.

it wasnt that the car i owned wasnt perfect. It was a POS. I lived throught the HPFP fiasco with the N54 in a BMW. I understand flaws... also, i understand that my issues were exponentially magnified by an absolutely incompetent dealership that had no idea how to treat an enthusiast.

i maintain that the cts-v is a $30,000 glorified chevy malibu with a 556 hp motor. At the end of the day, I expected quality at or near an M5 and got nowhere close.

remember, the car is at its core, a cts... THE LOWEST MODEL CADILLAC.

There are many people on this board that didnt have the issues I had... I hope that anyone that gets this car has an experience similar to what I had hoped for.

DrVolkl
10-20-11, 03:48 PM
i have a similar background to OP.

i bought the CTSV because i wanted a manual and a ton of power. it was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned and i've owned some raging pieces of shit. im talking Saabs and Land Rovers...

My car was repurchased by GM and I went back to BMW. The only thing I miss is the crazy, seductive, addictive power... to the point of considering trying again... then I wake up. I will drive an f10 m5 and either go with that, a Dinan 550 xdrive or possibly an cls 63 or e63... im also considering a panamera s.

My only experience with these cars is what I read on here as well as the V I owned as well as the 2010 V my partner owns (that sucked me in in the first place) which is also an enormous piece of shit.

the car is so close to being great, but so close can also be so far.

I'd hate to see a fella get into a leased V with the hopes of it comparing to porsches, audis and bmws only to be TERRIBLY dissappointed. Cranking sideways on the highway at 70mph can only cast a shadow on awful build quality so often...

So you're saying I'm going to miss my 997 Turbo? lol... yeah, I should have kept my 2010 S4.... but now I'm in this boat where I need a bigger car. I'm ready to take a chance and do a 2 year lease... crossing my fingers my experience is better than yours.

e6t
10-20-11, 05:24 PM
So you're saying I'm going to miss my 997 Turbo? lol... yeah, I should have kept my 2010 S4.... but now I'm in this boat where I need a bigger car. I'm ready to take a chance and do a 2 year lease... crossing my fingers my experience is better than yours.

statistically, it will be and to be honest, it wont be that hard.

good luck! as i said the car could really be a world beater...

on edit: ive considered leasing a v wagon... i figured at worst, id deal with it for 24 months and punt. my biggest concern with mine was that i was in for 70m on a car that was junk and that noone would ever buy me out of!

DrVolkl
10-20-11, 06:20 PM
statistically, it will be and to be honest, it wont be that hard.

good luck! as i said the car could really be a world beater...

on edit: ive considered leasing a v wagon... i figured at worst, id deal with it for 24 months and punt. my biggest concern with mine was that i was in for 70m on a car that was junk and that noone would ever buy me out of!

Yeah, if Audi would bring their S4 Avant here or an RS4 version, I'd be buying one of those right now. There just isn't much in the same league as the V Wagon unless you jump up to SUVs... like the X5 M or the much more expensive AMG E63 wagon. I put a $1500 deposit down on a 2012... now I just have to wait for the dealership to order it etc... at which point I'll trade my 997 in, structure a 2 year lease and put some $$ in my pocket. Sounds like I'll get it around February?

This is my first American car since my 2001 Ford Explorer Sport... I've done my best to avoid them for 10 years... I'm hoping I'm not making a mistake, but I feel it's time to give the home team another chance.

(6spd, recaros... sounds sorta European!) :)

e6t
10-21-11, 12:49 AM
the v is crazy fast and a blast to drive... i loved being able to go RIGHT THERE, RIGHT NOW. there was no opening in traffic that was too small to get into... i do miss the power on a daily (hourly) basis.

the only 4 door that ive ever driven that felt anywhere close is the new cls 63. im very interested in the f10 m5 and in fact still have a deposit on the first one set to come to my state... when that will happen has yet to be determined. im hearing march/april for delivery in the us...

btw, LOVE the new e63 wagon.

JimmyH
10-21-11, 06:58 PM
...it was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned...
My car was repurchased by GM and I went back to BMW...
I'd hate to see a fella get into a leased V with the hopes of it comparing to porsches, audis and bmws only to be TERRIBLY dissappointed..


i am OBVIOUSLY biased.

so, to summarize the above, you are hanging around here just to troll. excellent.





At the end of the day, I expected quality at or near an M5 and got nowhere close.

And you obviously never compared the pricetags. Hmm.

e6t
10-21-11, 08:20 PM
so, to summarize the above, you are hanging around here just to troll. excellent.






And you obviously never compared the pricetags. Hmm.

im hardly a troll.

as ive said, i am still considering a wagon.

and OF COURSE i looked at the price... the V was intended to be a bridge from my e60 to the f10 M5 that I would unload with 10m miles on it after 2 years but I couldnt make it. I dont see how my experience could not be valuable to someone.

troll? damn.

btw, i like it here. MY car sucked, but this place is ok.

junker87
10-26-11, 12:25 AM
Ordered the car from James Quinn, he is the best.

2012 Vagon
Manual 6 speed
No sunroof
Black diamond
Graphite wheel
Yellow caliper
Alcantara stering wheel and shifter
Recaro

James said that we should get the car before Christmas!

SoCalCTSV
10-26-11, 02:14 AM
Mine's on a train to So Cal ready for a Halloween treat.

junker87
10-26-11, 03:54 AM
i gave Silverstar a chance but the sales manager overrode my poor salesguy with some crazy no manual ctsv policy and tried to push the slushie ctsv on th showroom on me.

Another nameless dealer tried to pocket my eva money by purposely quoting the wrong gm preferred and eva price.

I just love LA dealers, don't matter if it was cadillac, porsche, ferrari, or bmw.

DrVolkl
10-26-11, 03:54 AM
Ordered the car from James Quinn, he is the best.

2012 Vagon
Manual 6 speed
No sunroof
Black diamond
Graphite wheel
Yellow caliper
Alcantara stering wheel and shifter
Recaro

James said that we should get the car before Christmas!

When did you order??? I'm being told 3-4 months...

junker87
04-19-12, 04:46 PM
Well, it's been 5 trouble free months since taking delivery of the Vagon 6 speed, and my car ADD is kicking in, hard. In the last 6 years I have had 03 Turbo, 03 GT2, 08 S4 Avant, 03 M5, 11 M3, and 12 CTSV Wagon.

Last week I got rid of our 2011 M3 sedan. Someone took over the lease and came and drove the car away. BMWFS really has the process down. I started the process on Monday with the new lessor, and on Thursday got an email from BMWFS saying that the car can now be surrendered to the new lessor. Wow.

The M3 is going to be replaced by a red or yellow 04 or 05 GT3. Last of the no traction control dry sump block racing motor GT3 before they go to this POS 9A1 non racing motor.

This brings up the Vagon.

Love the power, love the fact that it has been trouble free and have not seen the inside of a dealer in 4500 miles since new. But, both the mrs and I miss having a nice and pristine E39 M5 in our fleet, and as luck would have it, I found one that is very late production with less than 10K miles. A sub 10K mile E39 M5's are getting to be very difficult to find, so I need to make room and grab one before they are all gone for good.

My monthly lease payment is 799 before sales tax, hopefully it won't be too difficult to find someone to take over the lease. I will be contacting Ally to get the Vagon up for a lease transfer to free up a parking space for this M5.

thebigjimsho
04-19-12, 06:19 PM
p00p

buddyg
04-19-12, 08:15 PM
That's strange trading a 2012 awesome sedan for a 9 year old BMW?

sshu
04-19-12, 08:53 PM
I'm actually a 2003 E39 M5 owner thinking of getting a Vagon, haha. How is the driving experience between the 2 besides the obvious power difference? I love my M5 also but as repair bills mount up, it's coming time to move on. What made you miss your M5 so much? I don't want to have regrets selling the M5.

JFJr
04-19-12, 09:52 PM
You'll never be happy with an American car. This is a "V" forum. Buy a used German whatever and move on.

junker87
04-20-12, 12:26 AM
I'm actually a 2003 E39 M5 owner thinking of getting a Vagon, haha. How is the driving experience between the 2 besides the obvious power difference? I love my M5 also but as repair bills mount up, it's coming time to move on. What made you miss your M5 so much? I don't want to have regrets selling the M5.

The CTSV is a modern big power sedan. Like any modern big power sedan, E60 M5, AMG E55, etc, it is big and feels heavy. Before I had the Vagon, starting from 98, I have had 97 M3 sedan, 98 M3 coupe, 2002 M3, 88 325is, 2003 Porsche Turbo, 2003 Porsche GT2, 2008 S4 Avant, 2003 M5, and 2011 M3 sedan.

The E39 M5 is no feather weight, but BMW managed to make it feel small and nimble. If you are in LA you are welcome to check out my Vagon.

It was the last 5 series that did not feel big and bulky. The E60 and the F10 just feel huge, and the CTSV was no exception.

Interior wise, the V2 while close, is still no E39 M5. The E39 M5 MSRP was 70K in 2003 (my Varon has an MSRP of 72K), and came with nice alcantara headliner, fine grain nappa leather dash and B pillar with alcantara A and C pillar. It has very nice trunk lining and mat (instead of the Chevy malibu stuff). And while the leather in the V2 is a huge improvement over the V1, heritage nappa leather this aint. And then there's the dome light surround in the V2, it is made of seriously cheap plastic with huge cheap looking buttons. Lastly, the trunk privacy cover is laughbly cheap even when compared to the bottom of the line 40K Audi A4 Avant.

These interior complains are small things. But if all you have ever had are German cars, it might bother you.

The biggest issue you have to consider is whether you are OK with the direction of modern sedans being big and heavy, regardless of brand. This more than anything is why we are moving back to a sub 10K pristine 2003 M5.

----------


You'll never be happy with an American car. This is a "V" forum. Buy a used German whatever and move on.

The reason the V1 came into being was because Lutz wanted something that can compete with the E39 M5.

With the V2, it was nice enough that people who previously spend their 70 to 100K on German cars are looking this way. Like it or not, for CTSV to be on par with the Germans, small things matter. Cadillac obviously agrees with people like me who are first time owners, because they tried really hard to rectify the horrid V1 interior with the hugely improved V2 interior.

I am hopeful that by V3, the accountant who said no on things like nice leather dash, alcantara headliner, and high quality trunk covering get out voted and the engineers get to source truely nice stuff.

----------


That's strange trading a 2012 awesome sedan for a 9 year old BMW?

The E39 M5 is iconic.

This is the car that got Lutz started on the CTSV. And when a last MY less than 10K mile one popped up, I just can't say no to that.

sshu
04-20-12, 12:07 PM
The CTSV is a modern big power sedan. Like any modern big power sedan, E60 M5, AMG E55, etc, it is big and feels heavy. Before I had the Vagon, starting from 98, I have had 97 M3 sedan, 98 M3 coupe, 2002 M3, 88 325is, 2003 Porsche Turbo, 2003 Porsche GT2, 2008 S4 Avant, 2003 M5, and 2011 M3 sedan.

The E39 M5 is no feather weight, but BMW managed to make it feel small and nimble. If you are in LA you are welcome to check out my Vagon.


I may take you up on that offer. I'm actually located in Santa Monica. My email is ovcsearch@gmail.com and we can figure out the details. Thanks!!

ekyub
04-20-12, 12:58 PM
I know the coupe wasn't on your radar but maybe that would be a better comparison to M3s, and 911s. I've owned alot of the same cars you have and I hated my B5 S4 Avant and E39M5 but loved my M3s (E46 and E90) and 9111s. I'm considering the coupe to replace my 911 because I just love the silly power of the V.

Good luck with your lease swap. It's tempting.

thebigjimsho
04-20-12, 04:41 PM
The V1 is a better performance car than the E39 M5.

buddyg
04-20-12, 05:57 PM
To each their own that's what makes the world go round but I would never do what you are doing. I wouldn't take a brand new BMW M5 over my V.

Blk N Blwn
04-20-12, 10:22 PM
i have a similar background to OP.

i bought the CTSV because i wanted a manual and a ton of power. it was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned and i've owned some raging pieces of shit. im talking Saabs and Land Rovers...

My car was repurchased by GM and I went back to BMW. The only thing I miss is the crazy, seductive, addictive power... to the point of considering trying again... then I wake up. I will drive an f10 m5 and either go with that, a Dinan 550 xdrive or possibly an cls 63 or e63... im also considering a panamera s.

My only experience with these cars is what I read on here as well as the V I owned as well as the 2010 V my partner owns (that sucked me in in the first place) which is also an enormous piece of shit.

the car is so close to being great, but so close can also be so far.

I'd hate to see a fella get into a leased V with the hopes of it comparing to porsches, audis and bmws only to be TERRIBLY dissappointed. Cranking sideways on the highway at 70mph can only cast a shadow on awful build quality so often...
I had a 2000 BMW M5 and that was the worst vehicle I ever owned. I put 12,000 miles on the car in 3 years and it was in the dealer 16 times for engine lights and numerous other problems. Because of that experience and the terrible attitude by the BMW zone rep that is the last BMW I will ever own. Too bad because the car was awesome when it ran. Guess they all have problems.

junker87
04-21-12, 03:58 AM
I had a 2000 BMW M5 and that was the worst vehicle I ever owned. I put 12,000 miles on the car in 3 years and it was in the dealer 16 times for engine lights and numerous other problems. Because of that experience and the terrible attitude by the BMW zone rep that is the last BMW I will ever own. Too bad because the car was awesome when it ran. Guess they all have problems.

I have owned enough BMW to know to NEVER buy the first MY.

2000 M5's have non existent resale because they were plagued with all kinds of issues, electrical and engine wise.

All that and more were addressed by the time 2001 MY came around.

This happens to all brands, Ferrari included, cue the self igniting 458's.

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The V1 is a better performance car than the E39 M5.

So what? The Z06 is a better performance car than a GT3 if all you can about is setting the fastest time.

But unless you are a brand loyalist, 5 minutes in each cars is all it takes for anyone to understand why the GT3 is a better overall car. And why the GT3 is the car that sets the bar while the Z06 tries to play catch up. As much as the domestic fans like to try to pretent that things like build quality and quality of materials do not matter, they do. And Cadillac agrees with me, which is why you see such a drastic improvement in the overall quality of V2 over V1.

Same with the iconic E39 M5. The V1 worksmanship and material is utterly laughable if you have spent any time in each.

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To each their own that's what makes the world go round but I would never do what you are doing. I wouldn't take a brand new BMW M5 over my V.

Have you owned any German cars? What are you basing your decision of never taking a brand new M5, which would be the F10 M5, over your V on?

The V1 cut a lot of corners in material and worksmanship because Lutz wanted a performance sedan that can beat the M5 in terms of numbers.

Lutz got that done. Big performance with cheap price tag, nicely done.

Just 6 years later, V2 now has a price tag of 72K! So, one should reasonably be able to expect decent overall quality, and yet, its material used still can't compare to that of the E39 M5, which started production in 2000 for the U.S., let along the E60, and now the F10 M5.

Try as you might, the 70 to 100K German sedan buyers are what Cadillac is targeting with the obsidian black trim, the recaro seats, the sueded steering wheels, gobs of power, and the much nicer paint job. To succeed, Cadillac needs to reign in their accountants if they want a 100% no excuse car that can compete squarely with the Germans.

I shouldn't see Chevy truck headliner in a 72K car.

But that's not even the reason why the Vagon is coming up for a lease swap, I obviously have decided that I could live with the interior shortcomings, or I wouldn't have ordered a Vagon. It is simply that we are just not used to the big and heavy modern sedan with big power. We would have been equally unhappy with the E60 M5, and probably vomit a little each time we see the bangled rear end.

Blk N Blwn
04-21-12, 10:27 AM
I have owned enough BMW to know to NEVER buy the first MY.

2000 M5's have non existent resale because they were plagued with all kinds of issues, electrical and engine wise.

All that and more were addressed by the time 2001 MY came around.

This happens to all brands, Ferrari included, cue the self igniting 458's.[COLOR="Silver"]


I hear ya. I also owned a 2000 BMW 540i 6 speed car which frankly was a better car reliability wise. But for the exact reason you state (first year model of a new platform) BMW should have stepped up to the plate and did everything possible to make the car right. They didn't so I am done with them. I am sure they could really care less but at the end of the day I bought a new Cadillac V instead of a new M3 or M5. GM's gain BMW's loss.

Pphilthy
04-21-12, 11:25 AM
Having own my fair share of German and domestic car, and being an overall car guy - I went to test drive the new M5 before I bought the CTS-V and overall power wise, they are very similar, exterior wise I like the CTS-V and interior wise the edge goes to the BMW, but not by as far as some of the BMW fan boys would like... What turned me off completely about the new M5 is the steering feel, horrible! What a huge let down and I've own three M cars in the past so I have a pretty good reference point. The CTS-V steering feel currently sets the standard and overall fun to dive was hands down the CTS-V.

I have no doubt that once non-biased people start comparing the two, my above comments will be very close to dead on... BMW just missed the mark with their new electric power steering, by a country mile. Now the kicker was, does the M5 offer 50k more value, lol - no way... With 4k in mods into the CTS-V, the M5 has no chance...

Teutonaddict
04-21-12, 12:26 PM
I understand completely the love for the E39 M5--I was a BMW guy for 17 years before coming to the darkside. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, as both my E39 M5 and my V2 were first-model-year versions and both were relatively trouble-free (come to think of it, also had 95 E34 and 98 E39 540i/6's that were flawless first-year models, too. Hmmmmm, better go buy a Lotto ticket!).

I picked the M5 up from the Spartanburg Performance Delivery Center in April 2000 and rode that baby for six years. Still regret letting her go with 85K miles... However, I does love me some V2!! Zero problems, so I plan to learn from my M5 lesson and never let this one go; I'm gonna run her into the ground or until the wheels fall off, whichever comes first.

Yeah, the alcantara headliner is nice, but the trunk mat you mention was optional. And 72K in 2000 equals a $96K sticker today, so it ain't quite apples-to-apples. In the end, ain't it great to have choices? Sorry you're tired of your Vagon. Hope that other E39M5 guy makes you an offer...

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We would have been equally unhappy with the E60 M5, and probably vomit a little each time we see the bangled rear end.

I'm with you there! I had a deposit down on the E60 M5 years before while it was still sight-unseen. The aesthetics (both exterior AND interior) were a deal-breaker for me, plus all the little things that used to make an M-car started to fade: driver-oriented cockpit, manual tranny (at least on introduction). Thankfully, my dealership gave me my deposit back after I decided to go a different route. FWIW, the F10 M5 looks like a proper, non-Bangle-ized performance sedan. I'm just happy where I'm at!

Crystal Red CTS-V
04-21-12, 02:15 PM
The maintenance problems with my wife's '06 Mini Cooper S (built by BMW) were the reasons I traded it in for our CTS-V! The BMW dealership personnel and the facilities were leaps and bounds ahead of any US brand's showroom and people, but I just couldn't take the ongoing coolant leaks, water pump failures, etc. and having to drive 100 miles to the original (and nearest) Mini/BMW dealer for service. I do miss the outstanding service and people at the BMW dealership.

thebigjimsho
04-22-12, 01:26 AM
I've driven an M5. I didn't think it was vastly superior to the V1 in build quality. And I thought the V had much better ergonomics.

And the V2s interior layout is much better than any current BMW...

junker87
04-23-12, 04:03 AM
I've driven an M5. I didn't think it was vastly superior to the V1 in build quality. And I thought the V had much better ergonomics.

I am sorry, but this staement is just absurd.

The fine grain heritage nappa leather wrapped desh on the E39 M5's, made from 2000 to 2003, is VASTLY, VASTLY superior to even the low quality bumpy huge grain and cheap almost faux leather covering the V2 dash. That is not up for debate unless you have vision and tactile issues.

How about the cheap material used for the door panel in the V1? Or that awfully cheap steering wheel in the V1? The knobs and the buttons on the V1 are made of this incredibly cheap plastic compared to the E39 M5. Unless you were driving it in your imagination, anyone who has actually done so would objectively agree.

I did drive quite a few V1's when they came out, because I was curious to see how Lutz's effort had turned out. He got an A on performance, and D on build and material. Which was fine for V1, because the price tag was low.


And the V2s interior layout is much better than any current BMW...

And the V2? The layout is pretty good, but again, the fact that the buttons wobble from side to side on the center console is pathetic for a car with an MSRP of 72K. Don't believe me? Go press on the left or right edge of the DEST button, or ANY button around it. Now, go find a well taken care of E39 M5 (between 9 and 12 years old), press the DSC, temperature, fan speed, heated seats control, etc buttons. Solid, no wobbling.

In the league of 70 to 100K cars, things like these matter to buyers who are accustomed to a certain level of worksmanship and material.

Again, I will point out that I have obviously decided that I could live with the shortcomings, which is why I got a Vagon. But facts are facts.

Put it simply, if you can make the build and material issues go away by making the MSRP 76K instead of 72K, THEN MAKE THE MSRP 76K!

I am really not understanding why you always get domestic folks who refuse to acknowledge the fact GM's gap on build and material quality. People like me who are getting into the world of GM for the first time are doing so because we see the huge improvement that GM has made from V1 to V2, and we are the reason why that improvements were made. It certainly weren't made for people who thought that the chevy truck headliner and the cheap leather dash were A OK on a car with a 72K price tag.

And as for the "I would rather GM keep the prices low" argument. First of all, 72K and low price do't belong in the same sentence in ANYBODY's world. And second, if a couple grand more in price which would make these material quality issues go away would prevent someone from getting a V2, then they really should examine their financial priorities.

Houdini
04-23-12, 08:02 AM
Thanks for the heads up... I just realized my buttons do wobble a bit. I'm taking this POS back!

JFJr
04-23-12, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the heads up... I just realized my buttons do wobble a bit. I'm taking this POS back!Ha haa! And GM uses cheap tires, too, because every time you floor it, some of the tread comes off on the pavement. WTF! Oh, I forgot to add that my gas tank must leak because I have to visit the gas station every week. If I had bought a German car I wouldn't have these problems.

Jud :lildevil:

thebigjimsho
04-23-12, 04:17 PM
I am sorry, but this staement is just absurd.

The fine grain heritage nappa leather wrapped desh on the E39 M5's, made from 2000 to 2003, is VASTLY, VASTLY superior to even the low quality bumpy huge grain and cheap almost faux leather covering the V2 dash. That is not up for debate unless you have vision and tactile issues.

How about the cheap material used for the door panel in the V1? Or that awfully cheap steering wheel in the V1? The knobs and the buttons on the V1 are made of this incredibly cheap plastic compared to the E39 M5. Unless you were driving it in your imagination, anyone who has actually done so would objectively agree.

I did drive quite a few V1's when they came out, because I was curious to see how Lutz's effort had turned out. He got an A on performance, and D on build and material. Which was fine for V1, because the price tag was low.

And the V2? The layout is pretty good, but again, the fact that the buttons wobble from side to side on the center console is pathetic for a car with an MSRP of 72K. Don't believe me? Go press on the left or right edge of the DEST button, or ANY button around it. Now, go find a well taken care of E39 M5 (between 9 and 12 years old), press the DSC, temperature, fan speed, heated seats control, etc buttons. Solid, no wobbling.

In the league of 70 to 100K cars, things like these matter to buyers who are accustomed to a certain level of worksmanship and material.

Again, I will point out that I have obviously decided that I could live with the shortcomings, which is why I got a Vagon. But facts are facts.

Put it simply, if you can make the build and material issues go away by making the MSRP 76K instead of 72K, THEN MAKE THE MSRP 76K!

I am really not understanding why you always get domestic folks who refuse to acknowledge the fact GM's gap on build and material quality. People like me who are getting into the world of GM for the first time are doing so because we see the huge improvement that GM has made from V1 to V2, and we are the reason why that improvements were made. It certainly weren't made for people who thought that the chevy truck headliner and the cheap leather dash were A OK on a car with a 72K price tag.

And as for the "I would rather GM keep the prices low" argument. First of all, 72K and low price do't belong in the same sentence in ANYBODY's world. And second, if a couple grand more in price which would make these material quality issues go away would prevent someone from getting a V2, then they really should examine their financial priorities.

Hey, Mr. Blowhard, instead of getting all hysterical, read sometime. You mentioned build quality. I then said the build quality and ergonomics were excellent. Figure out what that actually means.

Build quality means how well it is screwed together. Ergonomics is how well things work around you in th cockpit.

YOU go on a diatribe of your velvet roofs and buttons.

The materials may be cheaper, but that has no relation to if its put together well or where the controls are.

And, again, the V2 LAYOUT is better.


Hooray for you stroking your roof and playing with your buttons.



And I love BMWs, but I at least think objectively...

Teutonaddict
04-23-12, 05:31 PM
The fine grain heritage nappa leather wrapped desh on the E39 M5's, made from 2000 to 2003, is VASTLY, VASTLY superior to even the low quality bumpy huge grain and cheap almost faux leather covering the V2 dash. That is not up for debate unless you have vision and tactile issues.

Well, sport, I hate to question your vision and tactile capability, but facts is facts. The ONLY year that E39 M5s had real leather dash and door tops was MY2000. After that, they were ALL faux leather--or "synthetic material" per the official BMW Product Planning bulletin. I know, because I had to jump through hoops when I ordered my '00 E39 M5 from the factory--I knew more than my usually-on-the-ball salesman.

While you CAN debate the relative quality of said synthetic materials (and I think that's your real point, but I got lost in the tirade), what you cannot objectively debate is that your beloved '03 M5 dash didn't come from no cow. No how.

LUXURY Interior
All Leather Nappa Heritage
dashboard and upper door trim covered in synthetic material
leather on seats is ultrasmooth, seats incorporate vertical stitching
Standard Bruyere Club Wood trim
no/charge Burl Walnut Wood trip
Standard Alcantara Anthracite headliner
Not Available Electric rear sunshade, side manual shades

See Product Planning and Strategy Bulletin from BMWNA for Model Year 2001 M5 below.

thebigjimsho
04-24-12, 12:38 PM
In Uranus.

JimmyH
04-24-12, 02:45 PM
Why do guys continue to feed the trolls?

junker87
04-24-12, 03:33 PM
Why do guys continue to feed the trolls?

Really? Should I take a picture of my window sticker? Or maybe the monthly statement from Ally?

So if you have a V but you believe that there are rooms for improvement, you are now a troll?

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Hey, Mr. Blowhard, instead of getting all hysterical, read sometime. You mentioned build quality. I then said the build quality and ergonomics were excellent. Figure out what that actually means.

Build quality means how well it is screwed together. Ergonomics is how well things work around you in th cockpit.

YOU go on a diatribe of your velvet roofs and buttons.

The materials may be cheaper, but that has no relation to if its put together well or where the controls are.

And, again, the V2 LAYOUT is better.

Hooray for you stroking your roof and playing with your buttons.

And I love BMWs, but I at least think objectively...

What you don't realize is that for someone like me who has had BMW, Audi, and 911's with the GT1 blocks, I look at cars like cars. Just because I won't buy a first year F10 M5 doesn't mean BMW sucks. Same here, just because I am saying that the interior of the Vagon is still not up to par when it was clear that it could have been doesn't mean the Vagon sucks. Or does any criticism of the V = V sucks?

You are correct that I sort of lumped build quality and materials together. So to clarify.

Build quality, when I look at the LARGE joints between the plastic coverings at the bottom of the door frame on my wagon, it is clear that the build quality here IS affected by the material used. They are related to one another. A worker can only do so much to make cheap parts fit right.

And the material IS cheaper, and it has bearings on how well things CAN be put together. Look at the seam of the headliner where it meets the top of the windshield. That is going to delaminate after a few years under the sun. BMW learned about this in their E36's, and went to solid one piece headliners because of it. The E36 ended production before year 2000.

Ergonomics, well, the NAV has really nice interface, much better than Porsche, Audi, and BMW. Except we don't bother using it because most of the time when we take the wagon it's the whole family, and while the wagon is moving my wife cannot input an address while I am driving, because GM's over zealous product liability lawyer has decided that this will not be possible. So what's the point of having NAV if you have to pull over to type in an address even if you have a passenger that clearly can enter the address?

Ergonomics, ok, the steering wheel controls. Who thought it was a good idea to put preset up down and volume up down right next to each other?

Ergonomics. There's the parking brake. Your foot must be hard on the brakes And the car stopped for you to engage it.


And really? "stroking your roof and playing with your buttons?" It's still just a car last I checked, some of you react like I just kicked your dog.

JimmyH
04-24-12, 07:16 PM
So if you have a V but you believe that there are rooms for improvement, you are now a troll?

Saying that you think they should have given you a nicer interior is one thing. Saying it over, and over, and over in 2000 word posts that no one is going to read anyway makes you, a troll.

If you go here: http://www.bimmerforums.com they will be much more likely to agree with your over-assertions.