: Possible mid-cycle refresh and horsepower bump?



rcl4668
10-02-11, 05:58 PM
Did a quick search on the forum and did not find anything recent but does anyone have information, even rumor, about a potential mid-cycle refresh for the current V-series including a possible horsepower bump for 2013 or 2014? Given the newness of the platform I doubt there is any information but I am new to the board (and to Cadillacs in general) and was wondering what, if any, rumors were swirling. My thought was that now that the new M5 will be out in the next few months with 560 hp, it would make sense for GM/Cadillac execs to give a slight nudge in hp to retain bragging rights given the fairly close 556 hp figure. Thanks for any info or wild speculation you can provide.

/Rich

2002 BMW M5 (but shopping for 2012+ CTS-V Wagon)
2004 John Cooper Works MINI Cooper S
2006 Honda Odyssey Touring
1994 Mazda Miata

M5eater
10-02-11, 08:27 PM
It' really anyone's guess. In some segments GM is content to let products sit and stagnate like they have for decades, and in others, they've learned from their mistakes and are trying to keep models fresh. What I can tell you however is; the mid-sized super sedan market is rather dull at the moment(that's in respect with new content only-- the market segment overall is pretty nice at the moment, sans the RS6 hiatus), I believe the only car to even offer a power add package is the E63, and traditionally speaking with regard to the previous E-class AMG, RS6 and M5 generations, there's no revisions or new power-adding packages ever offered to the N/A market. It's only recently that BMW and Mercedes have decided to lock-horns again with these competition packages, Black editions and try to out-do each other, because Audi's decided from the looks of it that the N/A market isn't ready for another RS6 or RS4.. so who care's about them anyway.

I do not expect any revision to the CTS will be made since it hasn't happened already. We can't even get the stuff we've been promised for years(diff cooler, black grille, competition brake package..ect), fat chance for some actual go-fast stuff making it before the model ends imo. Frankly, I don't think they really need to with Half the people on M5board (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/f10-m5-discussion/poll-1416-you-disappointed-f10-m5.html) considering the F10 a flop before it's even hit the show-room floors. That said though, I really believe BMW is sandbagging the S63Tu's rattings, as they typically do with most of their figures for the M cars.. so considering that the V is basiclly a 0-60 and 1/4 car even in comparison to an E60-- against an F10 with the new 7speed, I would expect an Auto V2 to need 30 more ponies to keep its few tenths a second lead on the M5-- which is something even the ZL1 didn't get when it was adapted for the LSA.

short answer; It would be nice, but I just don't see it happening unless the F10 pulls a 180 with it's quoted figures and totally and thoroughly de-thrones the king.

garfin
10-02-11, 09:49 PM
The new M5 may have 560 BHP, but it still does not produce the torque that our cars produce (551lb-ft vs. 502 lb-ft for the M5).
FWIW, I've seen 2 reviews that indicate a 4.4 sec. 0-60 time for the new M5 (no manual offered).
http://www.wheels.ca/columns/article/800331

Best regards,

Elie

rcl4668
10-03-11, 12:02 AM
Thanks guys. I was thinking about the C5 Z06 and how GM came out with a hp bump after the initial model year. It seems that a slight bump (10-20 hp?) would be even easier with the supercharged engine in the CTS-V. At any rate, it's nice to fantasize about an already great car. I usually buy cars in the middle of their cycles anyway but I was hoping my timing would yield an extra little "bonus." At the end of the day, one could always do something like a Lingenfelter upgrade I suppose.

M5eater
10-03-11, 06:32 AM
The new M5 may have 560 BHP, but it still does not produce the torque that our cars produce (551lb-ft vs. 502 lb-ft for the M5).
FWIW, I've seen 2 reviews that indicate a 4.4 sec. 0-60 time for the new M5 (no manual offered).
http://www.wheels.ca/columns/article/800331

Best regards,

Elie

it does make less peak torque, but it also makes it from 1500rpms to 5750rpm, and it's making peak HP from 5750 to 7000rpm. Do not think for one second the S63Tu is some push-over.

Aurora40
10-03-11, 07:38 AM
Thanks guys. I was thinking about the C5 Z06 and how GM came out with a hp bump after the initial model year. It seems that a slight bump (10-20 hp?) would be even easier with the supercharged engine in the CTS-V.
The C6Z is quite the opposite, though. It's been in production 6 years and no power bump. The only real changes have been making uplevel equipment available on it (Z07, carbon).

I've noticed very few LS engines have ever received a power upgrade. Only Gen III engines. The LS6 as you mention the next year, and the LS1 when it received the LS6 intake. The LS2, LS3, LS7, LS9, LSA have never had any bump in power.

Tuna
10-03-11, 08:45 AM
I suppose the Camaro's ZL1 version of the LSA could be put in the CTS along with a switch to the electric power steering. That might be nice.

As for power bumps in the LSx engines, the LS1 in the Vette got a 5 HP bump in 2001 - 345 to 350.
The C5 ZO6's LS6 was bumped from 385 to 405.
Since the C6 came along the power bumps have included size changes to the engine and new LSx values.

M5eater
10-03-11, 10:27 AM
I suppose the Camaro's ZL1 version of the LSA could be put in the CTS along with a switch to the electric power steering. That might be nice.

As for power bumps in the LSx engines, the LS1 in the Vette got a 5 HP bump in 2001 - 345 to 350.
The C5 ZO6's LS6 was bumped from 385 to 405.
The only item I see making it's way into the LSA in the V without a performance package is the supercharger efficiency revision; whatever that is. I do not believe the steering pump would work with the variable ZF rack we have, and a lot of the ZL1's bump is comming from the better intake, the better intercooler and better exhaust.


Since the C6 came along the power bumps have included size changes to the engine and new LSx values.
they received an enitrely new motor, hardly a 'bump' like what's being suggested here imo.

Tuna
10-03-11, 10:56 AM
they received an enitrely new motor, hardly a 'bump' like what's being suggested here imo.

The LS2 to LS3 is a 0.2 liter increase in size but it's still a basic LSx engine - not exactly an "entirely new motor" as suggested here.

M5eater
10-03-11, 11:34 AM
The LS2 to LS3 is a 0.2 liter increase in size but it's still a basic LSx engine - not exactly an "entirely new motor" as suggested here.
You could say that about every LSX motor if you want to make a statement that broad and generalized.. The fact is there's more going on in the LS3 than a .2L increase, enough that GM gave it a whole new designation.
It got structural block enhancements, new injectors, new pistons, new cylinder heads, bigger valves, new intake, new offset rockers, and the optional butterfly exhaust system.

Tuna
10-03-11, 12:45 PM
You could say that about every LSX motor if you want to make a statement that broad and generalized.. The fact is there's more going on in the LS3 than a .2L increase, enough that GM gave it a whole new designation.
It got structural block enhancements, new injectors, new pistons, new cylinder heads, bigger valves, new intake, new offset rockers, and the optional butterfly exhaust system.

All that pretty much comes from the LS7 in the ZO6. If you bump the size, most of that is going to be required to handle just that.
To the casual observer that doesn't look at internal castings, an LSx motor looks pretty much the same and they do not consider them "entirely new motors."

One could say the same for all the first generation small block Chevy motor from the 265 to the 400 - they are all the same basic motor.

M5eater
10-03-11, 12:54 PM
All that pretty much comes from the LS7 in the ZO6. If you bump the size, most of that is going to be required to handle just that.
To the casual observer that doesn't look at internal castings, an LSx motor looks pretty much the same and they do not consider them "entirely new motors."

One could say the same for all the first generation small block Chevy motor from the 265 to the 400 - they are all the same basic motor.

You could say that, yes. We're arguing semantics at this point though, the OP wanted to know if a bump would happen as presumably it's easier on an F/I car. Since they didn't change hard-parts for the ZL1 like they did for the C6, I would not think that they have one in the works at this point, more so as the Gen V's are just on the horizon.

Tuna
10-03-11, 01:10 PM
You could say that, yes. We're arguing semantics at this point though, the OP wanted to know if a bump would happen as presumably it's easier on an F/I car. Since they didn't change hard-parts for the ZL1 like they did for the C6, I would not think that they have one in the works at this point, more so as the Gen V's are just on the horizon.

Yes. I would like to think that changing the "V" to electric steering would bump the "V" HP some - maybe 15. The issue would be if the "Vs" current configuration can be modified to handle it.