: Cadillac ATS-V - Twin Turbo V6



Lord Cadillac
09-28-11, 12:52 PM
The Cadillac ATS-V variants will use a twin-turbo V6 which will be competitive in it's segment (BMW M3, MB C63 AMG, etcetera). A V8 is not in the plans at this time. This CAN change - but as of now, it's not happening. All wheel drive is almost certain.

0AT E03
09-30-11, 10:38 AM
AWD and the Twin Turbo are not going to happen on any version of this platform (even CTS).

No way to package the front prop shaft to the front diff with all the turbo hardware.

rand49er
09-30-11, 02:24 PM
AWD and the Twin Turbo are not going to happen on any version of this platform (even CTS).

No way to package the front prop shaft to the front diff with all the turbo hardware.To clarify a bit, they won't happen TOGETHER.

BUT, the Twin Turbo part will happen without the AWD part.

Right?

0AT E03
10-01-11, 11:19 AM
Exactly.

Lord Cadillac
10-01-11, 01:04 PM
At least my source is right about the twin turbo V6. He/She has been saying this for over a year now.

thebigjimsho
10-01-11, 07:33 PM
Chaz Bono?

lunarx
10-02-11, 04:55 AM
I saw articles stating V6 Turbo is out in favor of a 470HP DI V8.
That would make it a real V.

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bruff1977
10-02-11, 01:34 PM
Sure hope so. *470 HP sounds good. A type of whatever engine in the C7 would be nice.

Lord Cadillac
10-02-11, 02:09 PM
I saw articles stating V6 Turbo is out in favor of a 470HP DI V8.
That would make it a real V.

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Those articles are probably old. It's highly unlikely a V8 will find it's way into the Cadillac ATS-V. I really don't think we're going to see an M3 beater the first time around - just like with the CTS-V. What will set this car apart from the BMW is the interior - which should be phenomenal. The ATS-V will be an excellent all-around performer with impressive creature comforts and technology.

JimmyH
10-02-11, 06:17 PM
Considering how far away the ATS-V is, its specs could change several more times before its release.

Lord Cadillac
10-02-11, 07:40 PM
True. Especially considering the fact that Cadillac originally wanted a V8 in this car. The thing is - with Cafe and the fact that even BMW is moving away from the V8 in their M3 - it's highly unlikely...


Considering how far away the ATS-V is, its specs could change several more times before its release.

JimmyH
10-02-11, 07:50 PM
Quite so. I agree the TTV6 is probably what will find its way into the V. As long as it has a flat torque curve and a nice sound, I think most enthusiasts will accept it.
What are the rumor mills talking with the reported GM 8-speed these days?

lunarx
10-02-11, 08:02 PM
A GM V6 TT would be sad to see and lead to poor reliability.
A GTR engine, it is not.
Plus, it will be heavier than an NA DI V8.

Lets hope GM reserves the V badge for cars with real engines.

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JimmyH
10-02-11, 08:20 PM
A GTR engine, it is not.

Ah yes, the inevitable comparison to the fabled GT-R.
I hope GM's TTV6 is not a GT-R engine. It would suck to own an ATS-V whose drivetrain is only warrantied if you don't drive it.

lunarx
10-02-11, 08:46 PM
Thats the transmission, LOL.
The GTR engine is solid and under tuned.

GM V6TT will struggle at 380 and wont have any aftermarket suppprt, except for, maybey............ D3.
GM needs to stay with what they are good at.




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JimmyH
10-02-11, 09:13 PM
I love my LS3 as much as the next guy, but we have to be realistic. The world is changing. Those who don't change with it will be left behind.

lunarx
10-02-11, 09:46 PM
With a V6 TT, its the ATS-V that will be left behind.

Who is talking LS3?
GM execs, a DI LS is what V buyers want.
Right?

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CTSVKINGWAGON
10-02-11, 09:46 PM
Those articles are probably old. It's highly unlikely a V8 will find it's way into the Cadillac ATS-V. I really don't think we're going to see an M3 beater the first time around - just like with the CTS-V. What will set this car apart from the BMW is the interior - which should be phenomenal. The ATS-V will be an excellent all-around performer with impressive creature comforts and technology.

Ummm... The 1st gen CTS-V beat the M3... and the c63... and the RS4. I'm pretty sure that GM will be able to create and M3 beater the first time around with the ATS-V. Considering that the ATS and the 3 series will be released at the same time, I think that it will be a good fair fight.

Lord Cadillac
10-03-11, 02:33 PM
Quite so. I agree the TTV6 is probably what will find its way into the V. As long as it has a flat torque curve and a nice sound, I think most enthusiasts will accept it.
What are the rumor mills talking with the reported GM 8-speed these days?

I don't believe the 8-Speed transmission is making it in time for the initial release of the Cadillac ATS.


Thats the transmission, LOL.
The GTR engine is solid and under tuned.

GM V6TT will struggle at 380 and wont have any aftermarket suppprt, except for, maybey............ D3.
GM needs to stay with what they are good at.

If GM gets a twin turbo engine, there will be plenty of aftermarket support for it. It's too easy to tune turbo engines.


Ummm... The 1st gen CTS-V beat the M3... and the c63... and the RS4. I'm pretty sure that GM will be able to create and M3 beater the first time around with the ATS-V. Considering that the ATS and the 3 series will be released at the same time, I think that it will be a good fair fight.

I have this problem of never comparing the CTS-V to a 3-Series BMW. To me (and many others), the CTS-V is an M5 competitor. Though I know many people also don't agree with that.

Otherwise, the ATS-V was originally supposed to have the new Gen V 6.2 liter V8. It's not completely off the table - just highly unlikely - as mentioned above. General Motors does not have a manual transmission or all wheel drive for the twin turbo V6. So there's a couple more reasons why the V8 is still a possibility...

mikesul
10-04-11, 01:09 PM
The November issue of Road & Track shows the Caddy concept "Ciel" with a 3.6TT DI engine with 425hp and 450# torque. This would most likely be the ATS-V engine. Car was shown at Pebble Beach show.

Lord Cadillac
10-04-11, 02:51 PM
I'm pretty sure that was actually a unique 3.5 liter twin turbo V6. I don't know of this engine planned on any production model at this time. There's a new 280 (or so) horsepower turbo four cylinder, a new (more powerful) direct injected 3.6 liter V6 and a new V8 (or two) on the way...


The November issue of Road & Track shows the Caddy concept "Ciel" with a 3.6TT DI engine with 425hp and 450# torque. This would most likely be the ATS-V engine. Car was shown at Pebble Beach show.

rand49er
10-05-11, 04:18 PM
... General Motors does not have a manual transmission or all wheel drive for the twin turbo V6. ...No MT?!! This would more than likely put the kibosh on me getting an ATS-V.

I'm familiar with the 3.6 as a passenger car engine and of course its use in the CTS. Is it capable of handling north of 400 hp (boosted)? Sure, I know they'd beef up the bottom end, but what about the block itself (assuming GM would want to use it as is currently manufactured)?

lunarx
10-05-11, 04:52 PM
Agreeing with Randy.

Come on guys, speak up now or forever hold your peace.
Don't send the message that it's OK for GM to put a sub-standard engine in the ATS.
Let them know you won't buy junk.
If I wanted an over-strained V6TT, what is wrong with the G37 and a GTM Trubo kit?
You will be getting smoked by them if that is what your ATS has.

For me to buy; I need a real engine LS DI V8 with at least 470HP NA and strong aftermarket support.
I would not touch a GM V6TT, because it is not a proven product like an LS based engine.

Can you say SC Northstar or 3800 SC?
Do you really want non-supported lackluster engines like that in your next V?

Also, they must offer a Manual Trans or at least a Dual Clutch SMG if they think manual shifting is such a bad thing.

Lord Cadillac
10-05-11, 09:02 PM
No MT?!! This would more than likely put the kibosh on me getting an ATS-V.

I'm familiar with the 3.6 as a passenger car engine and of course its use in the CTS. Is it capable of handling north of 400 hp (boosted)? Sure, I know they'd beef up the bottom end, but what about the block itself (assuming GM would want to use it as is currently manufactured)?

The 3.6 that goes into the ATS will be naturally aspirated. It'll be a little more powerful than the current engine in the CTS. With a little luck, the ATS won't be too heavy and we'll have a car that runs with cars like the Infiniti G37.


Agreeing with Randy.

Come on guys, speak up now or forever hold your peace.
Don't send the message that it's OK for GM to put a sub-standard engine in the ATS.
Let them know you won't buy junk.
If I wanted an over-strained V6TT, what is wrong with the G37 and a GTM Trubo kit?
You will be getting smoked by them if that is what your ATS has.

For me to buy; I need a real engine LS DI V8 with at least 470HP NA and strong aftermarket support.
I would not touch a GM V6TT, because it is not a proven product like an LS based engine.

Can you say SC Northstar or 3800 SC?
Do you really want non-supported lackluster engines like that in your next V?

Also, they must offer a Manual Trans or at least a Dual Clutch SMG if they think manual shifting is such a bad thing.

The new 3.6 liter might be enough to power the ATS to compete with the Infiniti G37 - which is where I personally feel it needs to be. The ATS-V is another story. I know everybody wants a V8 - and there's still a possibility that's going to happen - but the next M3 is getting a twin turbo V6. So why not? All I ask of the ATS-V, personally, is to keep up with the new M3. I think that's all Cadillac needs to have a hot selling V. If the TT V6 can do that, than great. But I do understand where you're coming from about the engine not being a proven product like an LS based engine...

JimmyH
10-05-11, 09:52 PM
Cadillac would be stupid to not offer a manual in the ATS-V. I don't see them doing that. I think what Sal implied before is there will not be a manual WITH awd. I highly doubt we will see an awd ATS-V at all though. Even though the auto will most certainly highly outsell the manual, they have to offer it, or they will alienate alot of buyers. Even if they only sell 1000 over a few years, it's worth it to offer it.

lunarx
10-05-11, 09:56 PM
Aside from the V6TT possibly having "enough" power......

We need an authoritative V8 exhaust note.
When is the last time you got excited about how a V6 sounds?
Although the G37 is a nice car for the money, it's exhaust note is hideous.
The LS exhaust note is auditory bliss and should rightfully remain the signiture sound for an American performance sedan, especially one with V Series badges.

JimmyH
10-06-11, 01:38 PM
^I agree with that part of it. But sound alone does not make a performance car.

Lord Cadillac
10-06-11, 01:56 PM
I'm always saying how I feel a Cadillac should never be just "good enough" - but if it's good enough to be on par with the best in class (BMW M3), than I can deal with it...


Aside from the V6TT possibly having "enough" power......

We need an authoritative V8 exhaust note.
When is the last time you got excited about how a V6 sounds?
Although the G37 is a nice car for the money, it's exhaust note is hideous.
The LS exhaust note is auditory bliss and should rightfully remain the signiture sound for an American performance sedan, especially one with V Series badges.

M5eater
10-06-11, 02:03 PM
I'm always saying how I feel a Cadillac should never be just "good enough" - but if it's good enough to be on par with the best in class (BMW M3), than I can deal with it...
good enough to compare it to the best of the breed? I agree. Have we even guessed that there's even enough room in the ATS for a Small Block? Presumably it's a bit smaller than the CTS now-- and the LSA just bearly squeezes between the impact rails as it is.

JimmyH
10-06-11, 02:07 PM
You have to believe they designed the space under the hood for it. The compactness probably comes from the firewall back. Look at the Camaro. It's a big car. But the interior is smaller than a 3-series.

M5eater
10-06-11, 02:28 PM
You have to believe they designed the space under the hood for it. The compactness probably comes from the firewall back. Look at the Camaro. It's a big car. But the interior is smaller than a 3-series.

I'm talking about horizontal space. The V has a raised hood because it needs it for the supercharger. Presumably this thing is N/A and thus does not need the big hood. it's just a matter if they can wedge it into side rails that are smaller than the CTS's rails-- which are already a tight fit.

JimmyH
10-06-11, 03:57 PM
I would suspect the ATS will be at least as wide as a first gen CTS. It looks like it has a pretty decent stance. If the ATS-V gets an LS3, or whatever the next equivalent is, I would think there would be plenty of room. You wouldn't think there would be an FI V8 in the ATS-V. NA V8 or FI V6. Whatever happens, I hope they don't make it too expensive. I would really like to get back in a V in a few years.

0AT E03
10-06-11, 08:24 PM
LS V8's are smaller than DOHC V6's in width & height. If taking the longest dimensions. So if you can fit an "LFX" V6 then you can fit an LS3. The Twin Turbo would be the widest engine.

The small block is a compact engine, dense in stature, but overall dimensions are favorable. They fit in cars that housed straight 6's with minimal effort.

I'd expect a high price. ATS has to start at $35k due to Buck Regal pricing. The V would be in the mid-50's at least I think.

rand49er
10-07-11, 03:58 PM
... The V would be in the mid-50's at least I think.Keeps the riffraff out.


As much as I like the LS3, it's inevitable that we're going to see the four-valve, overhead cam, smaller displacement motors replacing the cam-in-the-block motors in the future. Maybe the time hasn't quite come ... I don't know, but it's going to happen. With enough grunt, I'd welcome a V6TT ... as long as a manual trans was offered with it.

lunarx
10-08-11, 04:11 AM
Lets not even consider acceptance of V6TT.
Less power plus laggy response is a big step backwards.
I'm really hoping for a DI LS engine to allow easy modding to 600HP NA.
The smallest & lightest Cadillac needs to be able to deliver the best performance in the lineup.
Let the bigger heavier Cadillacs pursue softer-gentler performance goals and target audience.

JimmyH
10-08-11, 01:24 PM
You must not be paying attention to the V2 forum.

lunarx
10-08-11, 02:01 PM
You must not be paying attention to the V2 forum.

Must not, I did not know the V2 was light, DI & NA.
Is the ATS-V not supposed to be cool?

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JimmyH
10-08-11, 06:05 PM
What I meant is the the V2 is not "the bigger heavier Cadillac pursuing softer-gentler performance goals and target audience."

I don't quite get it, but there are plenty of V2 pushing 700 whp. A DI NA LS V8 is not gonna get there.

Aurora40
10-08-11, 07:25 PM
I love my LS3 as much as the next guy, but we have to be realistic. The world is changing. Those who don't change with it will be left behind.

I don't see how a TT V6 vs a DI V8 has anything to do with the world changing. But if GM goes V6 on the ATS-V, what will definitely change is my interest in it. I'd love to see a 450+ V8 in a car smaller than the current CTS-V. Sort of a V1, but without all the dopey ergonomic and driveline quirks.

M5eater
10-08-11, 07:30 PM
Lets not even consider acceptance of V6TT.
Less power plus laggy response is a big step backwards.
I'm really hoping for a DI LS engine to allow easy modding to 600HP NA.
The smallest & lightest Cadillac needs to be able to deliver the best performance in the lineup.
Let the bigger heavier Cadillacs pursue softer-gentler performance goals and target audience.

performance is relative. Mercedes Audi and BMW all have small, fast track cars and then they have hugely powerful touring mid-sized cars that would murder said compacts In everything sans a race track. I'm with jimmy as well in that I'm not seeing 600na hp from a genv if we're only talking about adding d/I without extensive modification.

lunarx
10-09-11, 01:02 PM
What I meant is the the V2 is not "the bigger heavier Cadillac pursuing softer-gentler performance goals and target audience."

I don't quite get it, but there are plenty of V2 pushing 700 whp. A DI NA LS V8 is not gonna get there.

The V2 is too heavy and I thought the 3rd Gen CTS was supposed to get even bigger.
V2 gets its power boost from a SC, which has its drawbacks.
DI would be a more efficient method of boosting power, that would work well in a lighter car.

GM was guaging interest with a 470 HP DI NA LS and you guys dont want it????????

Imagine the modding potential of an ATS-V with that engine?

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rand49er
10-09-11, 06:45 PM
The Germans put out an I6TT and with a boost tweak, the darn things scream.

Why couldn't the same thing be done on an all aluminum V6TT (DI, of course)? ... something rated at 380-420 hp out of the factory going up to nearly 500 with mostly just a boost increase (plus a PCM tweak)?

You'd have to give up the V8 exhaust note ... that'd be the down side.

JimmyH
10-09-11, 06:53 PM
The V2 is too heavy and I thought the 3rd Gen CTS was supposed to get even bigger.
V2 gets its power boost from a SC, which has its drawbacks.
DI would be a more efficient method of boosting power, that would work well in a lighter car.

GM was guaging interest with a 470 HP DI NA LS and you guys dont want it????????

Imagine the modding potential of an ATS-V with that engine?

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You're preaching to the choir here. I am all about na v8s. I have a camaro ss right now.

I think we are just predicting it's more likely to be a turbo6. The ctsv already targets the m5 so it's only natural the atsv will target the m3. The next m3 will be a turbo6 (I think someone said this pretty much a lock). And an ls3 powered atsv would be like a repeat of the first gen ctsv.

I would like to say I want a v8 atsv. But realistically I don't see myself buying another Cadillac. They are getting too expensive for me. My only option is to hope Cadillac resale stays poor and buy a 2 year old.

M5eater
10-09-11, 07:04 PM
The Germans put out an I6TT and with a boost tweak, the darn things scream.

Why couldn't the same thing be done on an all aluminum V6TT (DI, of course)? ... something rated at 380-420 hp out of the factory going up to nearly 500 with mostly just a boost increase (plus a PCM tweakl)?

You'd have to give up the V8 exhause note ... that'd be the down side.
a V8 would be nice, I just don't see a TT V6 as a disadvantage. people are still doubling or tripling the HP in B5 S4's with basicly a 20 year old 30V V6 design. It wouldn't shock me if that(500+) would be possible in a 3+L TT ATS-V with a tune and exhaust

JimmyH
10-09-11, 07:27 PM
There is a local guy here with 2010 camaro v6. He is working with ips in Indiana and is already over 400 rwhp with his twin turbo setup. The goal is 450+ and he says they are almost there.

lunarx
10-09-11, 07:31 PM
You guys clearly have no idea what you would be giving up going from a modernized LS to a TT6.

Turbo Bearing Failures
Oil Comsumption
Turbo Lag
Boost Hose Leaks
Cracked Exhaust Manifolds
Overheating
Detonation worries

And when you mod, more lag from;
Bigger Turbos
Oversize Front Mount Intercoolers
Also,Reduced Airflow to Radiator from IC above.

To end up the same HP as a smartly modded LS could give you NA with headers & cam with less weight and complexity and smoother power delivery.

For the serious modders a sleeved block to 427+ CI or a TVS can be added for the End Game.


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thebigjimsho
10-09-11, 08:20 PM
Keeps the riffraff out.


As much as I like the LS3, it's inevitable that we're going to see the four-valve, overhead cam, smaller displacement motors replacing the cam-in-the-block motors in the future. Maybe the time hasn't quite come ... I don't know, but it's going to happen. With enough grunt, I'd welcome a V6TT ... as long as a manual trans was offered with it.I disagree. While I think the LS can go smaller with DI, I don't think it needs to go DOHC, even though I've always loved those type of engines.

I think a 5.3 DI LS motor putting out 450hp in an ATS-V sounds nice. Especially if you can rev it a little higher. Then add a tall 6th like the V1...

JimmyH
10-09-11, 09:45 PM
Now you are complicating things further. If they rob the LS of a liter, they better not produce a peaky engine like Ford's new 5.0. I have seen the torque curves of both stock and modified engines, and they are very peaky. While I only drove the GT a few miles, it was enough to know that much more shifting is required than with LS3's relatively flat curve. While this won't matter to the majority of owners (who opt for the slushbox) it matters to me as I commute 90 miles/day, and much less shifting is required from the V1 and SS than my last manual V6 car.

I would have to think that if GM goes with a TTV6 in the ATS-V, it would be a bi-turbo like the 335 engine. There is supposedly no turbo lag to speak of, and a pretty broad torque curve. Although I am no expert on the BMW engine beyond what folks have told me.

Lord Cadillac
10-09-11, 09:50 PM
The twin turbo 335i has VERY little turbo lag. I really didn't notice any at all - most of the time. Every so often there was a tiny bit - but I was tuned and could have used catless downpipes with the added power.

thebigjimsho
10-09-11, 10:00 PM
Now you are complicating things further. If they rob the LS of a liter, they better not produce a peaky engine like Ford's new 5.0. I have seen the torque curves of both stock and modified engines, and they are very peaky. While I only drove the GT a few miles, it was enough to know that much more shifting is required than with LS3's relatively flat curve. While this won't matter to the majority of owners (who opt for the slushbox) it matters to me as I commute 90 miles/day, and much less shifting is required from the V1 and SS than my last manual V6 car.

I would have to think that if GM goes with a TTV6 in the ATS-V, it would be a bi-turbo like the 335 engine. There is supposedly no turbo lag to speak of, and a pretty broad torque curve. Although I am no expert on the BMW engine beyond what folks have told me.A 5.3 liter LS would have 93% of the displacement of the LS6, which is a much more enjoyable powerplant to drive than the LS2. That's not including DI, which should get you well above the LS6 output before factoring anything else. The LS will have had a decade of improvements since the LS6 and will no doubt be lighter, have lighter and more efficient parts and could even be paired with a 7 speed manual.

You bitch too much. You deal with absolutes and worst case scenarios of right now and apply them to unknown future tech. Let it go. You said you're not getting one so who cares?

Lord Cadillac
10-09-11, 10:06 PM
When all is said and done, we're going to have to deal with whatever GM gives us. The few of us in this forum aren't going to have any impact at all on GMs decision on which engine to go with. If we had 10,000 people here talking about the ATS-V and what's coming, we might have some pull. Unfortunately, it's impossible to get a large enough group of Cadillac owners and enthusiasts together to make any difference.

lunarx
10-09-11, 11:13 PM
The twin turbo 335i has VERY little turbo lag. I really didn't notice any at all - most of the time. Every so often there was a tiny bit - but I was tuned and could have used catless downpipes with the added power.

Don't ban me for saying this, but
that engine did not compare well to even an LS6.
Stock V1s would walk away from 335s easily.

As for no lag, there was no power either.
Small Twin Turbos and low intercooler system volume do minimize lag but also limit top end power.

I like turbos as much as anyone, but they work better on a V8 than on a V6.

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lunarx
10-09-11, 11:25 PM
When all is said and done, we're going to have to deal with whatever GM gives us. The few of us in this forum aren't going to have any impact at all on GMs decision on which engine to go with. If we had 10,000 people here talking about the ATS-V and what's coming, we might have some pull. Unfortunately, it's impossible to get a large enough group of Cadillac owners and enthusiasts together to make any difference.

I hope they do the right thing and build on what the V has proven to do well, which is mostly owed to the great LS power plant.

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M5eater
10-10-11, 07:42 AM
I would have to think that if GM goes with a TTV6 in the ATS-V, it would be a bi-turbo like the 335 engine. There is supposedly no turbo lag to speak of, and a pretty broad torque curve. Although I am no expert on the BMW engine beyond what folks have told me.

the APB S4 engine, Ecoboost, N54 and 300ZX engines *all* have super-flt torque curves. It's only these small I-4 turbos that have the 'turbo-lag' anymore, and that's dissapearing too. Need I mention the F10 M5 is a TTV8 and has a flatter curve than the LSA, *and* it makes full torque @ 1500rpms?


You guys clearly have no idea what you would be giving up going from a modernized LS to a TT6.

Turbo Bearing Failures-- keeping aside that the APB I keep referring to was a cramped bay with crappy borg warner K03's, the only time people blew them is when they abused them.
Oil Comsumption- clearly, you've never owned an LS engine :P. Besides, when I sold it @ 130K, my S4 didn't burn a drop of oil.
Turbo Lag -- see post above
Boost Hose Leaks--fact of F/I turbo life- can'targue against this disadvantage
Cracked Exhaust Manifolds- The only turbo car I've owned which had cracked Manifolds was my mazaspeed protege, which was basicly a 2L I4 that was adapted to be F/I.
Overheating-- I really don't think so, we manage fine on the stock LS oil cooler, I would imagine a bigger one being used on a TT. 1.8L Civics and the N54 had overheating problems, and the 3.0T Audi's had water pump problems, all of them fixed prompty, and all of them typical new-engine growning pains.
Detonation worries-- you can have that with a bad tune on an LS




And when you mod, more lag from;
Bigger Turbos-- *maybe..* is all I'll say. you can both go to a more effecient turbo *and* experience no percieveable lag.
Oversize Front Mount Intercoolers--- I've really never noticed any increased lag, and the S4 had dual ER SMIC's with cores twice as thick as war and peace
Also,Reduced Airflow to Radiator from IC above.-- note SMIC's?-- not that I think it really matters a whole lot.

Lord Cadillac
10-10-11, 10:30 AM
The engine in the 335i (N54) was originally intended for the M3 of that generation. They decided against releasing the M3 and used the engine in the 335i - extremely limited. When they decided to go along with the M3 anyway - they had to put in a V8 as they wouldn't use the same engine from another 3-Series. When the N54 335i has the limiters removed, it's a 12 second car. In my first drag race ever - not even knowing how to launch - I did a 12.9 1/4 mile with a tune and intake. The tune only turned up about 3/4 the way. The N54 is good for 500 horsepower - reliably... I had about 400.


Don't ban me for saying this, but
that engine did not compare well to even an LS6.
Stock V1s would walk away from 335s easily.

As for no lag, there was no power either.
Small Twin Turbos and low intercooler system volume do minimize lag but also limit top end power.

I like turbos as much as anyone, but they work better on a V8 than on a V6.

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0AT E03
10-10-11, 11:09 AM
You can talk about this all day long but the two engines that could go in the ATS-V already exist.

One is going in the Corvette, (the V8) and is rumored to be a 6.2L Gen V V8 (with DI and other goodies). You know it has to make 450+ HP, probably closer to 475 HP.

The Second is going in the next gen CTS, (the V6 TT) and is rumored to be a 3.0L Twin Turbo V6 (based on the current 3.6L family of engines). This engine should make 350-400 HP based on the fact that the 3.6L V6 makes at most 310 HP. Over 400 HP won't happen with that engine.

So now you have a few questions:

1. Is 400 HP enough for an ATS-V? (probably not)
2. Can you go V8 when your competition is going V6 Turbo? (I think so)
3. Is there a Manual Transmission that packaged and supports the V6 TT? (As of right now rumors say no)
4. Can you package a V6 TT in an ATS-V? (Yes if you use the next gen CTS steering equipment)

Based on these things, I'm willing to say it's 60% probable they will stick with the V8. 40% probable they will change to the V6 TT. The V's are rumored to be 2016's, with the next gen CTS V6 TT being a mid-2014 model, so by then I think GM will have a clearer understanding of what's going on in the market and enthusiasts will have a better understanding of both engines when you compare a C7 Corvette to a 3rd Gen CTS TT to each other.

Lord Cadillac
10-10-11, 11:29 AM
It sounds like there are so many good possibilities right now... I'm sure a LOT of people will be happy to hear about a 350-400 horsepower, tunable, twin turbo non-V-Series CTS...


You can talk about this all day long but the two engines that could go in the ATS-V already exist.

One is going in the Corvette, (the V8) and is rumored to be a 6.2L Gen V V8 (with DI and other goodies). You know it has to make 450+ HP, probably closer to 475 HP.

The Second is going in the next gen CTS, (the V6 TT) and is rumored to be a 3.0L Twin Turbo V6 (based on the current 3.6L family of engines). This engine should make 350-400 HP based on the fact that the 3.6L V6 makes at most 310 HP. Over 400 HP won't happen with that engine.

So now you have a few questions:

1. Is 400 HP enough for an ATS-V? (probably not)
2. Can you go V8 when your competition is going V6 Turbo? (I think so)
3. Is there a Manual Transmission that packaged and supports the V6 TT? (As of right now rumors say no)
4. Can you package a V6 TT in an ATS-V? (Yes if you use the next gen CTS steering equipment)

Based on these things, I'm willing to say it's 60% probable they will stick with the V8. 40% probable they will change to the V6 TT. The V's are rumored to be 2016's, with the next gen CTS V6 TT being a mid-2014 model, so by then I think GM will have a clearer understanding of what's going on in the market and enthusiasts will have a better understanding of both engines when you compare a C7 Corvette to a 3rd Gen CTS TT to each other.

M5eater
10-10-11, 11:33 AM
The engine in the 335i (N54) was originally intended for the M3 of that generation. They decided against releasing the M3 and used the engine in the 335i - extremely limited. When they decided to go along with the M3 anyway - they had to put in a V8 as they wouldn't use the same engine from another 3-Series. When the N54 335i has the limiters removed, it's a 12 second car. In my first drag race ever - not even knowing how to launch - I did a 12.9 1/4 mile with a tune and intake. The tune only turned up about 3/4 the way. The N54 is good for 500 horsepower - reliably... I had about 400.

amen to that. the N54 is probally the best engine BMW makes right now with regard to power expansion.

Lord Cadillac
10-10-11, 11:44 AM
If GM knows how to make engines, they should also be able to produce a 3.0 liter twin turbo engine that can handle 500 horsepower. Why not? If I'm not mistaken, they have a turbo "four" that can produce 1000... I'm not saying this engine should go OUT THE DOOR with 500 horsepower - but 400 would be reasonable and if tunable to 500 (for the few who really need or want that much power) - who'd complain?


amen to that. the N54 is probally the best engine BMW makes right now with regard to power expansion.

JimmyH
10-10-11, 01:41 PM
I still think they should offer both. They probably won't, but they should. There are the older guys like us who want a V8, and there are the younger guys who would prefer a turbo6.

JimmyH
10-10-11, 01:44 PM
You bitch too much. You deal with absolutes and worst case scenarios of right now and apply them to unknown future tech. Let it go. You said you're not getting one so who cares?

How am I bitching? I am being realistic. They are already talking about a CAFE of 50 mpg. You think they are going to get there with big V8 engines? They can offset of the lower economy of limited production cars like the V-series, or they can figure out how to make the V-series more fuel efficient and try to sell more of them. Which way do you think they are going to go?

M5eater
10-10-11, 02:02 PM
How am I bitching? I am being realistic. They are already talking about a CAFE of 50 mpg. You think they are going to get there with big V8 engines? They can offset of the lower economy of limited production cars like the V-series, or they can figure out how to make the V-series more fuel efficient and try to sell more of them. Which way do you think they are going to go?
As long as they're mass-producing stuff like the 90MPG Volt and various hybrids, who knows. A CTS or ATS V doesn't have to be some 30mpg wonder, it just has to manage 23-25 or so. DoD near 400HP V8's already do that on plain Fuel Injection.

Lord Cadillac
10-10-11, 02:06 PM
Well you know I'm all about options so I would love to see both.


I still think they should offer both. They probably won't, but they should. There are the older guys like us who want a V8, and there are the younger guys who would prefer a turbo6.

JimmyH
10-10-11, 02:26 PM
As long as they're mass-producing stuff like the 90MPG Volt and various hybrids, who knows. A CTS or ATS V doesn't have to be some 30mpg wonder, it just has to manage 23-25 or so. DoD near 400HP V8's already do that on plain Fuel Injection.

For sure. I am averaging 24-25 right now in my Camaro SS.

rand49er
10-10-11, 03:50 PM
... So now you have a few questions:

1. Is 400 HP enough for an ATS-V? (probably not)
2. Can you go V8 when your competition is going V6 Turbo? (I think so) ...

Based on these things, I'm willing to say it's 60% probable they will stick with the V8. 40% probable they will change to the V6 TT. The V's are rumored to be 2016's, with the next gen CTS V6 TT being a mid-2014 model, so by then I think GM will have a clearer understanding of what's going on in the market and enthusiasts will have a better understanding of both engines when you compare a C7 Corvette to a 3rd Gen CTS TT to each other.1. Depending on the car's weight (primarily), 400 hp might be just adequate, IMHO.

2. If the competition is all V6TT, I agree a cam-in-block V8 can successfully compete.


That Gen V 6.2 at 475 hp would be outstanding in a 3,600 lb car. Also, 2016 for the ATS-V would be about right for me personally. That's about four years from now which would be 10-1/2 years in my V1 and about 80-85k miles.





It sounds like there are so many good possibilities right now ...Agreed. It's all good.

JimmyH
10-10-11, 03:53 PM
I am just wondering what the Gen V is really going to be. Rumors are all over the place right now.

0AT E03
10-10-11, 05:08 PM
I am just wondering what the Gen V is really going to be. Rumors are all over the place right now.

Sure they are but if you discount the smaller displacement theories (which are by and by based on MotorTrends insistence that the GenV is based on the 5.5L race engine) then you really only have one set of rumors.

BTW, MotorTrend is wrong about the 5.5L being the GenV. How do I know, lets just say I know.

JimmyH
10-10-11, 05:13 PM
And isn't that 5.5L based on the LS7?

M5eater
10-10-11, 07:06 PM
1. Depending on the car's weight (primarily), 400 hp might be just adequate, IMHO.

You can bet money this will be between 3800-4000lbs.

0AT E03
10-10-11, 09:46 PM
And isn't that 5.5L based on the LS7?

You are correct sir.

rand49er
10-12-11, 10:53 PM
You can bet money this will be between 3800-4000lbs.Oink.

Lord Cadillac
10-12-11, 11:15 PM
Oink.

Isn't everything oinky these days?

0AT E03
10-12-11, 11:31 PM
Isn't everything oinky these days?

Yes. When a Corvette is considered "lightweight" at 3200 lbs. Everything is fat.

rand49er
10-13-11, 09:05 AM
I suspect the ones that are indeed lightweight either lack sufficient stiffness or suffer from high cabin noise. Certainly design is factor, too, but don't these guys take apart each other's vehicles to learn how the other guy does it and thereby finds out the tricks to optimize both stiffness and weight? Use of lighter-weight materials is another aspect, but then that shows up on the sticker.

JimmyH
10-13-11, 01:52 PM
Isn't everything oinky these days?

I certainly am.

JimmyH
10-13-11, 01:54 PM
when cafe gets to 50 mpg, they will figure out how to make cars lighter. more high strength steel, more aluminum, more plastic, hydroforming, etc.

I have some plastic here at my shop, I don't know what it is, but it is military aerospace certified, and it's incredibly strong. I bet over the next 20 years, plastic starts replacing more and more steel.

rand49er
10-13-11, 11:52 PM
... more high strength steel, more aluminum, more plastic, hydroforming, etc.

... military aerospace certified ...Cha-ching.

0AT E03
10-14-11, 12:29 AM
Has anyone noticed in the last 3 years that every major model redesign has come with a significant price increase? Look at the Cruze versus a Cobalt. The new Sonic versus the outgoing Aveo. Even at BMW the redesigned Z4 took a huge jump.

Cars are going to get more expensive here. The average family will start buying a Compact not a Mid-Size in the next 10 years.

rand49er
10-14-11, 10:06 AM
... Cars are going to get more expensive here. ...Maybe we should be looking at a Spark-V.

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr189/rand49er/spark.jpg

thebigjimsho
10-14-11, 12:00 PM
How about a Prius V?

lunarx
10-14-11, 12:20 PM
IQ-V, the Prius is for rich people.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

M5eater
10-14-11, 01:05 PM
How about a Prius V?

I thought the Lexus 200H was supposed to fill that gap?

O wait.. it's a sports hybrid that still takes 10.4 seconds to get to 60..

JimmyH
10-14-11, 01:53 PM
Cha-ching.

right now, but like all technology, that will change.

JimmyH
10-14-11, 01:54 PM
Cars are going to get more expensive here. The average family will start buying a Compact not a Mid-Size in the next 10 years.

Yeah, but they keep getting bigger. The Cruze is almost mid-sized. Look how much larger the Altima and Accord have gotten over the past few iterations.

rand49er
10-14-11, 09:56 PM
Yeah, but they keep getting bigger. The Cruze is almost mid-sized. Look how much larger the Altima and Accord have gotten over the past few iterations.Heck, even in this forum, the ATS-V has gone from 3600-3700 lbs to 3800-4000!

Darn thing might be over 4200 by the time it makes to production.

C&C
10-15-11, 06:10 AM
I sure hope Cadillac has aimed high (very high), and I'm sure the ATS will be very good, but BMW is about to release the new 3-series (and that is bound to be better than what already is considered the top-in-class vehicle). Interesting times in the small sport touring sedan class; go Caddy.

thebigjimsho
10-15-11, 04:12 PM
Where is the Music Factory?

Lord Cadillac
10-16-11, 10:28 PM
I sure hope Cadillac has aimed high (very high), and I'm sure the ATS will be very good, but BMW is about to release the new 3-series (and that is bound to be better than what already is considered the top-in-class vehicle). Interesting times in the small sport touring sedan class; go Caddy.

Nobody is going to make a better 3-Series than BMW.


Where is the Music Factory?

What are you talking about? Oh. C&C... :p

rand49er
10-16-11, 11:23 PM
Nobody is going to make a better 3-Series than BMW. ...I bet the difference becomes vanishingly small very soon.

Lord Cadillac
10-17-11, 06:51 PM
I agree 100%. The only possible thing that really CAN happen (as far as I'm concerned) is a company like Cadillac making a vehicle "just as good" as the 3-Series - only being more luxurious or high tech. Then BMW would kind of be playing catch up...


I bet the difference becomes vanishingly small very soon.

0AT E03
10-17-11, 09:11 PM
I bet the difference becomes vanishingly small very soon.

More because even BMW can't build a 3-series like they used to.

JimmyH
10-18-11, 01:26 PM
Not even BMW is exempt from the wrath of the bean-counter.

M5eater
10-18-11, 01:29 PM
Not even BMW is exempt from the wrath of the bean-counter.

I think it's because BMW and Mercedes are too busy concentrating on what each other is doing

JimmyH
10-18-11, 01:36 PM
And that silly Audi company has the nerve to interfere.

M5eater
10-18-11, 01:49 PM
And that silly Audi company has the nerve to interfere.
Audi's been very sucessfull recently, but I'm not convinced that BMW or Mercedes are quite ready to get over themselves just yet. Audi's line hasen't had clearly defined roles for a while, so I'm not sure they feel it's necessary to directly respond just yet. More-so when they're refusing to import their performance models and are inconsistiant with top tier models as well (ie- C6 RS6 and the on/off nature of the RS4..)

by the time BMW has tried to win over Mercedes customers, and Mercedes has tried to win over BMW customers, and Audi is try to grab a little bit of both-- they've all made basicly the same car.

rand49er
10-18-11, 01:52 PM
And that silly Audi company has the nerve to interfere.Yeah, but you've still rags like Car & Driver who live in the past and don't give Outties (or anything else) a chance in their comparos against a car with a BMW emblem on it. Every time I see a 3-Series vs XXX on their cover, I laugh ... it's such a joke!

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of selling my DD ('04 X-Type, 2.5L, 5-spd man, 88k miles) and depositing the roughly $7k in my "mod account" to save for the ATS-V. :sneaky: Will have to drive my wife's old car ('04 Buick Rainier) as a DD. Darn thing won't fit in the third bay of our garage. Not looking forward to scraping ice/snow off every morning, but it's getting me closer to the new V ... V6TT or LS42, I don't care.

M5eater
10-18-11, 02:09 PM
agreed, it's like a broken record when they talk about the 3 series, a hideous, annoying, mywayorthehighway broken record..

JimmyH
10-18-11, 03:32 PM
Especially even as they criticize the steering and body roll, and still proclaim it the golden child. I am convinced BMW is the majority shareholder in the "big 3" car rags.

Lord Cadillac
10-18-11, 08:46 PM
BMW can build whatever they desire. They're simply looking for more sales right now. Hard core driving enthusiasts account for a very small percentage of buyers. Right now BMW is looking to salvage a few of the hard core driving enthusiasts but at the same time attract everyone else. If they come back with the next generation of vehicles geared a little more toward driving enthusiasts - they'll likely be able to retain most of their new customers while re-attracting a decent sized portion of the old ones. It's a plan that may work or may not work. Everything you do is a risk. If BMW stuck to firm vehicles with cold, hard German-like interiors - they'd have left a lot of sales on the table. While everyone is going crazy to sell, sell, sell - BMW is responding by building cars that more people will buy. But nobody wants to see it that way on the internet. It's like everyone wants to be the first one to say, "Fail".


More because even BMW can't build a 3-series like they used to.

JimmyH
10-18-11, 09:12 PM
Hard core driving enthusiasts account for a very small percentage of buyers.

Quite so. They cannot afford to be the manufacturer of niche cars anymore. No one can. Look at Porsche.

M5eater
10-18-11, 10:03 PM
Quite so. They cannot afford to be the manufacturer of niche cars anymore. No one can. Look at Porsche.
That's sort of inevitable in a different way though, Porsche also needs new content because of rising fuel costs. I'm all for them building different cars anyway though, I never understood these people that believe they should only ever make the 911 in a billion different ways.

rand49er
10-18-11, 10:42 PM
... I never understood these people that believe they should only ever make the 911 in a billion different ways.Every little perturbation of which is written about ad nauseum in the rags.

I think it was the last C&D issue that talked about a nine-year-old Mercedes and how that owning one was to risk major expenditures. My wife's old Buick Rainier is no MB, but at nearly eight years old and with 140k miles on it, the only problem we've had is a thermostat that seems to open slowly but hasn't been changed yet. Gimme a domestic car any day.

JimmyH
10-19-11, 05:26 PM
I take comfort in the fact that in 4-5 years, when I have engine problems, it will be an old school pushrod v8 that will be cheap to fix. Unlike the gee-whiz engines found in all european cars now.

M5eater
10-21-11, 01:35 PM
I take comfort in the fact that in 4-5 years, when I have engine problems, it will be an old school pushrod v8 that will be cheap to fix. Unlike the gee-whiz engines found in all european cars now.

amen to that. how many engines can claim 100,000,000 units?

JimmyH
10-21-11, 01:59 PM
I was watching the motorweek review of the Toureg Hybrid. They were going on and on about all the amazing technology packed into the car. And I thought "God help the poor sap who has to have that thing fixed out of warranty"

lunarx
10-21-11, 02:02 PM
You guys like V8's again. :cool2:
So this isn't a 3 Series Turbo 6 thread after all.

Next time you even think Turbo 6, go crack open the throttle on your V (preferably with the windows down).
Let the ATS-V be a real car, on its own terms, defining it's own class, not a 3 series wana-be.
Cadillac needs to aim higher, they have the stuff to do it.

JimmyH
10-21-11, 02:04 PM
I never, ever said I wanted a turbo6. I said we will eventually have to accept it.

For a few of us, V8 > V6. For almost everyone else in the world, it's the other way.

M5eater
10-21-11, 02:15 PM
I never, ever said I wanted a turbo6. I said we will eventually have to accept it.

For a few of us, V8 > V6. For almost everyone else in the world, it's the other way.

The only place for V8's for the last decade sans 1 or 2 apperances in performance models has been in SUV's and pickup trucks anyway, and even Ford has started the transistion with Ecoboost F150's--and look how successful that powertrains been in a market that almost demands a very simple and easy to mantian/repair design?

lunarx
10-21-11, 02:25 PM
V6 is just a compromise many have learned to accept.
Untill technology advances further, a V8 gives the most performance and reliability, in a heavy street car, than any other cost competetive engine configuration.
A V6 could be amazing, for an unlimited budget, but the LS V8 is already amazing.

Let Cadillac focus their resoursces on the chassis, instead of wasting time on developing a new underperforming engine.
Just add DI and the LS is good to go with 500HP NA.
Put it in the right chassis and hold on.

lunarx
10-21-11, 02:29 PM
All you V6 supporters should be happy with the non V models as most of the population is.
A V car is for those who want, and appreciate, something that is over the top.

M5eater
10-21-11, 02:44 PM
All you V6 supporters should be happy with the non V models as most of the population is.
A V car is for those who want, and appreciate, something that is over the top.
I do not believe there are any supporters here.. there are only people that recognize inescapeable eventualities.

lunarx
10-21-11, 03:22 PM
Those eventualities are already here in mainstream cars.
Nothing wrong with cars for the masses.
The V is supposed to be an escape from the mainstream.

Is it better for sales if the V goes mainstream?
Why not make the watered down V the base model, to improve overall sales?
Then let the V be something special.
Isn't that what BMW did with the 330?
It worked BTW.

I would never want to buy a V6 V-Series Cadillac, because it is not what I expect from a model line that is supposed to offer high-end technology.
I can get mediocre somewhere else.

JimmyH
10-21-11, 03:55 PM
that's your opinion. Many car enthusiasts would consider the LS3, even LS9 to be old technology, and would not be interested in it. They would rather see 400hp bi-turbo quad-cam V6 than a naturally aspirated ohv 450 hp V8.

I think different levels of V would be great. Or at least different engine choices. Given the limited production aspect of the V, that seems unlikely though.

lunarx
10-21-11, 04:23 PM
Sounds like a pitch to resurect the SHO.

JimmyH
10-21-11, 05:04 PM
I think that already happened.

Lord Cadillac
10-21-11, 05:09 PM
I think that already happened.

No freakin' way...? :p

0AT E03
10-21-11, 05:45 PM
If they take away our V8's we'll have to push for V12's. At least they can share parts with the V6's....

JimmyH
10-21-11, 06:34 PM
Imagine the cost of a valve job on a multivalve V12

rand49er
10-21-11, 10:37 PM
... Let the ATS-V be a real car, on its own terms, defining it's own class, not a 3 series wana-be. ...


... Let Cadillac focus their resoursces on the chassis, instead of wasting time on developing a new underperforming engine.
Just add DI and the LS is good to go with 500HP NA. ...Ernie, these are very persuasive arguments, I gotta admit.

A 470 hp LS motor would not disappoint me at all. It's just that it's getting closer to a time when a V6TT will start showing up in GM's offering. Will it be with the ATS-V? I dunno. Either way, I'm saving my pennies.

rand49er
10-22-11, 07:59 PM
Met a guy today that works on the ATS at GM. We were both on the Fall Cruise that Torxila (George) posted a thread about. This guy wouldn't reveal any info but did say that he couldn't believe that Akerson actually told the public what motor would be going into the ATS-V in an interview or some public statement. He nonetheless could not come right out and say what it is.

So, I searched for information on his statement and found two interesting items. The first one is the 6.2L with 470 hp as we've mentioned above. The other speaks of 530 hp but a little less directly:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/06/stump-the-best-and-brightest-what-car-had-its-6-2-liter-v8-pulled-by-dan-akerson/ Now, THAT would be some serious horsepower!


If anyone can find a different quote by Akerson that's more to the point than what I've found, post it up please.


Another very interesting tidbit, besides his confirmation that a manual trans would be offered, was a discussion we had regarding weight. "This guy" says he was personally very pleased with how they kept the weight down ... "significantly less than the current CTS." Though he wouldn't say exactly and less than the current CTS still means oink oink, I still got the distinct impression that it was in the neighborhood of 3700 lbs, maybe something approaching 3600 lbs. I'd take anything in between. Imagine a car weighing, say, 3650 lbs (give or take) and 470 hp with a 6-spd and a warranty. Hot damn!


Heresay, heresay ... I know, I know, but I just had to post this up.

lunarx
10-22-11, 08:04 PM
Now you're talking!
Sign me up for that.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

M5eater
10-22-11, 09:06 PM
Met a guy today that works on the ATS at GM. We were both on the Fall Cruise that Torxila (George) posted a thread about. This guy wouldn't reveal any info but did say that he couldn't believe that Akerson actually told the public what motor would be going into the ATS-V in an interview or some public statement. He nonetheless could not come right out and say what it is.

So, I searched for information on his statement and found two interesting items. The first one is the 6.2L with 470 hp as we've mentioned above. The other speaks of 530 hp but a little less directly:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/06/stump-the-best-and-brightest-what-car-had-its-6-2-liter-v8-pulled-by-dan-akerson/ Now, THAT would be some serious horsepower!


If anyone can find a different quote by Akerson that's more to the point than what I've found, post it up please.


Another very interesting tidbit, besides his confirmation that a manual trans would be offered, was a discussion we had regarding weight. "This guy" says he was personally very pleased with how they kept the weight down ... "significantly less than the current CTS." Though he wouldn't say exactly and less than the current CTS still means oink oink, I still got the distinct impression that it was in the neighborhood of 3700 lbs, maybe something approaching 3600 lbs. I'd take anything in between. Imagine a car weighing, say, 3650 lbs (give or take) and 470 hp with a 6-spd and a warranty. Hot damn!


Heresay, heresay ... I know, I know, but I just had to post this up.

the 4.4L V8 turbo is in refernce to the S63 and S63tu, so I'm not seeing the correlation to the ATS-V in this interview, if anything it's even more confusing because the power figure he's quoting is less than what they're using to compete with said 4.4L turbo car right now. Aside from the fact that, the said 4.4L turbo V8 car is a midsized sedan and the ATS is presumably a compact.

None of that link makes sense to me.

JimmyH
10-22-11, 09:22 PM
470 hp, manual trans, and <3800 lbs, I am in.

lunarx
10-23-11, 08:32 AM
Those euro guys will shit their pants when this hits the streets.
I see increased market share for Cadillac.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

rand49er
10-23-11, 11:01 PM
470 hp, manual trans, and <3800 lbs, I am in.If LS2 MN6 likes this, then so do I.




Those euro guys will shit their pants when this hits the streets.
I see increased market share for Cadillac. ...Agreed.

rand49er
10-23-11, 11:18 PM
the 4.4L V8 turbo is in refernce to the S63 and S63tu, so I'm not seeing the correlation to the ATS-V in this interview, if anything it's even more confusing because the power figure he's quoting is less than what they're using to compete with said 4.4L turbo car right now. Aside from the fact that, the said 4.4L turbo V8 car is a midsized sedan and the ATS is presumably a compact.

None of that link makes sense to me.I'm not sure how to respond. Here's the quote again:

"In his Detroit News interview, GM CEO Dan Akerson revealed a minor mystery, which I present for your consideration and discussion:
In a recent meeting with engineers, for example, Akerson pressed them to explain the logic behind putting a big 6.2-liter engine in an unspecified car whose competitor has a 4.4-liter turbochargedengine (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#). The engineers replied: “Well, we want to be able to beat the other guy.”
Akerson responded: “I don’t think the average buyer is going to buy an eight-cylinder, 530-horsepower (car).” His point: Decisions must be supported by a solid business case, and not just for bragging rights or as a marketing tool."



Akerson reiterates the use of a 6.2L motor while actually speaking the phrase, "530 horsepower" and seems to be referring to what the engineers are wanting to put in the ATS-V, though he doesn't actually say that that's what they're planning on doing. I mean 470 is a dream come true, while 530 hp would virtually pulverize most Euro metal. I'd have to believe that BMW is watching this closely and trying to make predictions.

On a side note, you can really tell Akerson isn't a true car guy by that last statement: "Decisions must be supported by a solid business case, and not just for bragging rights or as a marketing tool." I say, bragging rights are a big part of why guys buy these kinds of cars right along with the fun factor of driving them. Akerson is dead wrong with his statement.

rand49er
10-23-11, 11:45 PM
Those of you with a more discerning ear, what motor is powering this ATS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35xFIhoQIY&feature=youtu.be


Here's a similar vid. Listen to the exhaust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2akcMaPY3Y&feature=player_embedded#!

M5eater
10-24-11, 08:09 AM
I'm not sure how to respond. Here's the quote again:

"In his Detroit News interview, GM CEO Dan Akerson revealed a minor mystery, which I present for your consideration and discussion:
In a recent meeting with engineers, for example, Akerson pressed them to explain the logic behind putting a big 6.2-liter engine in an unspecified car whose competitor has a 4.4-liter turbochargedengine (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#).


The engineers replied: “Well, we want to be able to beat the other guy.”
Akerson responded: “I don’t think the average buyer is going to buy an eight-cylinder, 530-horsepower (car).” His point: Decisions must be supported by a solid business case, and not just for bragging rights or as a marketing tool."



Akerson reiterates the use of a 6.2L motor while actually speaking the phrase, "530 horsepower" and seems to be referring to what the engineers are wanting to put in the ATS-V, though he doesn't actually say that that's what they're planning on doing. I mean 470 is a dream come true, while 530 hp would virtually pulverize most Euro metal. I'd have to believe that BMW is watching this closely and trying to make predictions.

On a side note, you can really tell Akerson isn't a true car guy by that last statement: "Decisions must be supported by a solid business case, and not just for bragging rights or as a marketing tool." I say, bragging rights are a big part of why guys buy these kinds of cars right along with the fun factor of driving them. Akerson is dead wrong with his statement.


the 'competitor whose engine has a 4.4L turbo' is the F10 M5 with the S63tu 4.4L Twin turbocharged V8.. ergo the 6.2 they're referring to in the unspecificed car is the CTS-V, which doesn't make sense because the 6.2L LSA makes 556. It would not make sense for the ATS-V to be in competition with the F10 M5 because the ATS is a compact-- ergo it's competition is the M3/ C63 AMG, neither of which are future speced for a 4.4L turbo. The M3 is getting a turbo I6/V6 and the C63 is probally getting a smaller twin turbo 5.5L V8.


Akerson reiterates the use of a 6.2L motor while actually speaking the phrase, "530 horsepower" and seems to be referring to what the engineers are wanting to put in the ATS-V, though he doesn't actually say that that's what they're planning on doing. I mean 470 is a dream come true, while 530 hp would virtually pulverize most Euro metal. I'd have to believe that BMW is watching this closely and trying to make predictions.
see above, I don't see where they're talking about the ATS here except in the phrase unspecified car and other unreleased product talk, the context of the first paragraph does not indicate that they're referring to the ATS, it seems more that they're referring to the CTS.

Additionally, the competition package C63 is making 480hp right now.. it's going to take at least that much to keep up with the next generation C63 and M3 imo.

0AT E03
10-24-11, 08:41 AM
the 'competitor whose engine has a 4.4L turbo' is the F10 M5 with the S63tu 4.4L Twin turbocharged V8.. ergo the 6.2 they're referring to in the unspecificed car is the CTS-V, which doesn't make sense because the 6.2L LSA makes 556. It would not make sense for the ATS-V to be in competition with the F10 M5 because the ATS is a compact-- ergo it's competition is the M3/ C63 AMG, neither of which are future speced for a 4.4L turbo. The M3 is getting a turbo I6/V6 and the C63 is probally getting a smaller twin turbo 5.5L V8.


see above, I don't see where they're talking about the ATS here except in the phrase unspecified car and other unreleased product talk, the context of the first paragraph does not indicate that they're referring to the ATS, it seems more that they're referring to the CTS.

Additionally, the competition package C63 is making 480hp right now.. it's going to take at least that much to keep up with the next generation C63 and M3 imo.

Don't be suprised if the new generation of cars (not including the upcoming M3) have zero to minimal HP gains from the Europeans. I think anything over 500 HP in the small luxury class is wishful (and unrealistic) thinking.

M5eater
10-24-11, 08:46 AM
Don't be suprised if the new generation of cars (not including the upcoming M3) have zero to minimal HP gains from the Europeans. I think anything over 500 HP in the small luxury class is wishful (and unrealistic) thinking.
The S63tu and new TT5.5L certinally haven't totally thrown caution to the wind with regard to HP increases, but they both still offer massive improvements over their predecessors. I expect something close to 500HP, and a lot of power-brand/torque improvements. The S63tu offers 500 FT/lbs of torque at 1500rpms , while the S85 yielded just 380FT/lbs, and that was at a sky-high 6100rpm's just as an example..

JimmyH
10-24-11, 01:44 PM
You know, it's entirely possible he was referring to the current M3 with 4.0L V8. Being he is not a "car guy" he could be confused between the current 4.0 L and the 4.4L.

0AT E03
10-24-11, 04:26 PM
The S63tu and new TT5.5L certinally haven't totally thrown caution to the wind with regard to HP increases, but they both still offer massive improvements over their predecessors. I expect something close to 500HP, and a lot of power-brand/torque improvements. The S63tu offers 500 FT/lbs of torque at 1500rpms , while the S85 yielded just 380FT/lbs, and that was at a sky-high 6100rpm's just as an example..

What I'm saying is don't expect that on the next round of engines. I feel that other things will be more important.

M5eater
10-24-11, 04:32 PM
You know, it's entirely possible he was referring to the current M3 with 4.0L V8. Being he is not a "car guy" he could be confused between the current 4.0 L and the 4.4L.
if you want to play that game though, he could be mis-speaking about anything in that quote :P

imo, if this were the case, he missed the displacement *and* aspiration. 2-point foul.

JimmyH
10-24-11, 06:21 PM
he could be mis-speaking about anything in that quote :P

lulz, he has been accused of mis-speaking everything about that quote :D

rand49er
10-24-11, 10:42 PM
Well, SOMEHOW he spilled his guts on the ATS-V's motor. Maybe all this "mis-speaking" stuff is a smoke screen.

As for me, I'd like to believe that we're talking a 6.2L, 470 hp, 3,700 lbs car at a minimum.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna look for some couch change to put in my piggy bank after I log off in few minutes.

JimmyH
10-25-11, 01:52 PM
Considering how near impossible it is to keep secrets in this internet age, I am surprised they don't blatantly release mis-information more often.

0AT E03
10-25-11, 03:35 PM
Considering how near impossible it is to keep secrets in this internet age, I am surprised they don't blatantly release mis-information more often.

It happens more than you think.

JimmyH
10-25-11, 03:42 PM
Michael Bay did it constantly with the Transformers movies. It was rather comical.