: Onstar tracking in new terms and conditions



jwa999
09-21-11, 10:50 PM
Apparently now can be sold to private parties.

http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=1270

Anybody know the fuse for automatic to permanently disable Onstar?

I never cared for it, I never signed up, but i'll be damned if their going to track my movements.

elphil
09-21-11, 11:36 PM
Just skimmed the new terms and conditions. EVERYBODY USING ONSTAR NEEDS TO READ THE NEW TERMS AND CONDITIONS. They can collect data on you and sell it. They can collect information, such as speed data, and pass it on to law enforcement agencies. And there is more. You can request Onstar to discontinue data collection, which can take up to 60 days. Maybe this is a hoax.

wait4me
09-21-11, 11:57 PM
You can do the same without making codes by just unplugging the Onstar antenna. Then it just puts a small red light up on the mirror. That way everything still thinks it is working. But yeah they do record alot of bad stuff for guys speeding, ect...

On the data bus, i have watched it record the following.
engine rpm
vehicle speed
gforce
throttle posistion
seat belt on or off
vehicle odometer reading.
obd2 code count
compass direction
engine run time
key fob number
max torque

Me Wanna A V
09-22-11, 12:15 AM
Jesse:

Where is this OnStar antennae connector located so it can be disconnected?

Kluch
09-22-11, 03:35 AM
Creepy. And I'm not usually paranoid about this stuff. And to think we actually buy GM vehicles BECAUSE of Onstar. Not sure what I will do, though I have a hard time believing they will sell out their CUSTOMERS to law enforcement. Who will buy the service then?

Caddyscat
09-22-11, 05:25 AM
Great. Does that mean my car will issue me tickets too? It can even periodically listen in on your conversations too, so you better be careful what you say or else it might dial down some HP! I remember an older thread where someone said "I love you" to the voice command and the female voice said "I don't understand". Try it!

MReiland
09-22-11, 06:36 AM
Update from OnStart on new Terms & Conditions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eppUz5CJA_0

EuroTrash
09-22-11, 08:12 AM
I like how it looks like a 90's camcorder was used.

I dont know, i dont think i would trust them one single bit. The motivators are all lined up against end user privacy, the same holds true for facebook and other corporations that are figuring out that data generated by end users can be of extreme monetary value to the right parties.

e6t
09-22-11, 11:03 AM
quite a few years ago, i was driving my saab 95 aero in houston and i was doing about 100. i was on with onstar getting turn by turn directions and the lady told me i might want to slow down. i said how fast am i going and she told me she wasnt allowed to say but that i needed to slow down.

Tom_E
09-22-11, 12:22 PM
You can do the same without making codes by just unplugging the Onstar antenna. Then it just puts a small red light up on the mirror. That way everything still thinks it is working. But yeah they do record alot of bad stuff for guys speeding, ect...



I just talked to my dealer and they told me my XM wouldn't work if I disconnected the ONStar antenna; can you confirm that?

Thanks

Tom

Tedboss1
09-22-11, 12:24 PM
I found this article on the subject:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/21/gms-onstar-now-spying-on-your-car-for-profit-even-after-you-uns/

elphil
09-22-11, 12:43 PM
If you subscribe to OnStar it will activated in 24 to 48 hours. If you request the data collection be disconnected "it may take up to 60 days". With that GM and OnStar loses all credibility with me.

midtown
09-22-11, 03:22 PM
This is disturbing. I am going to cancel my service asap. Can someone detail how to sever the connection in the vehicle?

ChicagoV
09-22-11, 04:10 PM
I am going to go against the grain on this one and say that until I have a negative consequence from this (like an issue with a ticket or insurance), I am going to keep the Onstar service under the new terms. I like the service and I don't really care if someone knows where I go and how fast. Kind of like when I am at work- people could monitor and read all my emails and which websites I visit and for how long- but why would anyone take the time to do it (not that I am on the porn sites or anything or sending around nudie pics from the work computer). This is just the beginning anyway- our kids will think absolutely nothing of this issue because they will have known nothing else. I guess I am just resigned to fact that if we want to carry around devices or drive cars that are connected to networks, we have to assume that some information that was once private will no longer be. And I don't care. Those that do will opt out by disabling the service.

RippyPartsDept
09-22-11, 04:10 PM
you know what's disturbing? your cell phone company profiting from selling your location data to just about anyone

the backstory:
http://consumerist.com/2009/12/sprint-revealed-customer-gps-data-to-cops-over-8-million-times.html
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2009/12/sprint-fed-customer-gps-data-to-leos-over-8-million-times.ars
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/02/18/the-snitch-in-your-pocket.html
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/12/gps-data/

the summary:
basically the cell companies have set up web portals where law enforcement can log in and get the REAL TIME gps data and the call log
and charge them for it and profit from it!! (they have to give it away for free in canada, it's illegal there to charge for it)

but there's not warrant, no judge involved, the LEO just logs into the portal and requests the info, and they can set it up to constantly check until they say stop

this is supposedly not wiretapping because they're only getting the metadata (time, location, phone number)

...


this all started getting brought to light when a 'blogger' posted audio and video from a intelligence trade conference where a sprint employee was bragging about the portal system they set up and how many requests it had fufilled
http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2009/12/8-million-reasons-for-real-surveillance.html

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/12/sprint_top.jpg

...

this stuff onstar is doing is nothing in comparison

JimmyH
09-22-11, 06:02 PM
If you drive like a normal human being, no one is going to "come and get you." You really think the occasional sprint to illegal speeds is going to have the authorities chasing you down? Maybe after they have arrested all the murderers, rapists, child molesters, domestic abusers, drug dealers, arms dealers, crooked politicians, crooked fellow cops, crooked priests, etc, etc, they will find the time to deal with you.

Tom_E
09-22-11, 06:21 PM
If you drive like a normal human being, no one is going to "come and get you." You really think the occasional sprint to illegal speeds is going to have the authorities chasing you down? Maybe after they have arrested all the murderers, rapists, child molesters, domestic abusers, drug dealers, arms dealers, crooked politicians, crooked fellow cops, crooked priests, etc, etc, they will find the time to deal with you.

Personally I'm not worried about them coming and getting me (yet) but what does concern me is how the data can be used against me either now or in the future. Example; my insurance company buys the data and decides that I speed too often and should pay higher rates even though I haven't had a ticket or accident in 15 years. What about the ability of OnStar to contact LE with a report of a CTS/V red on some deserted road in the dessert going over 100 at his own risk. If I won't have the ability to open up the ole girl once in while, where safe, then what is the purpose of owning a performance car? What also concerns me is that OnStar was able to change the contract without any say on my part. I thought that was the purpose of a contract so both parties agreed to what was being done. And lastly I DO have a concern how small the step will be in the future for the government to "link" all the data together and use it however they see fit in the interest of our well being or safety. I have managed to live to 64 by being responsible for myself and I'd like to continue living that way.

muohio
09-22-11, 08:28 PM
I highly doubt that On-Star has the physical capacity to store anything but aggregate information about pools of customers. Even if they stored the detailed information, it would be near impossible to timely data mine it for specific infractions or customers. Imagine how inundated they would be if 1000s of localities requested specific information on drivers coming through their jurisdiction.

EuroTrash
09-22-11, 09:14 PM
I highly doubt that On-Star has the physical capacity to store anything but aggregate information about pools of customers. Even if they stored the detailed information, it would be near impossible to timely data mine it for specific infractions or customers. Imagine how inundated they would be if 1000s of localities requested specific information on drivers coming through their jurisdiction.

I build those types of systems, it can be done rather easily given enough of an investment in hardware/software/manhours. All well within the range of onstar's budgets, esp given the potential revenue windfall just from insurance companies alone. (think of the savings the insurance companies would be looking at for reducing their payouts, if they can simply query onstar to see if the GM vehicle that just crashed matches up to their customers reporting of the incident...)

Wannago
09-22-11, 09:28 PM
If you drive like a normal human being, no one is going to "come and get you." You really think the occasional sprint to illegal speeds is going to have the authorities chasing you down? Maybe after they have arrested all the murderers, rapists, child molesters, domestic abusers, drug dealers, arms dealers, crooked politicians, crooked fellow cops, crooked priests, etc, etc, they will find the time to deal with you.

Yeah...c'mon...drive like a normal human being:
:halo:

80819

neuronbob
09-22-11, 10:55 PM
I'm trying to figure out how disturbed to be about this.

The cell phone companies are much more egregious about their data mining, an example of which is noted in Rippy's post above.

If some sort of negative consequence results from this (ticket, higher insurance premium, etc.), I will not bother disconnecting OnStar. I'll simply immediately sell my car and buy one without OnStar That means no more GM cars.

I think that OnStar will find the the negative consequences of this will lead to a loss of income unless they clarify and maybe change some of their policies STAT.

RippyPartsDept
09-23-11, 12:13 AM
I think that OnStar will find the the negative consequences of this will lead to a loss of income unless they clarify and maybe change some of their policies STAT.

Did you watch their YouTube video? (link in post #7)

RafCon
09-23-11, 03:19 AM
My problem isn't just personal data, it is specifically the anonymous data. When you go to renew your insurance and the company raises premiums because the average V driver exceeds the speed limit or takes their engine to redline more often than X type of cars... Or if you start getting marketing material from companies who want to sell you things based on your location or driving habits and the type of car you drive (life insurance, auto repair, etc...). I work very hard to minimize my exposure to crappy companies trying to sell me things and my data might lead to more crap like this too.

I also hate the idea of anyone knowing my driving habits. I don't care if it will lower my premiums. I'd rather they insure me based on my history and car choice versus how many miles I drive, who drives my car or where I go or how often.

This really bothers me and I'm tired of companies trying to force me to participate in their revenue schemes.

RafCon
09-23-11, 03:22 AM
And I did watch the video, read the email and the full response. They are trying to frighten you into agreeing with them by saying they might not be able to properly help in a time of need if you opt out (in so many words). These tactics bother me and I'd prefer they find additional revenue based on our originally agreed upon contract.

RippyPartsDept
09-23-11, 08:22 AM
How is a company going to send you marketing materials when they're buying anonymous and aggregate data from OnStar?

neuronbob
09-23-11, 02:33 PM
Did you watch their YouTube video? (link in post #7)

Thanks for the reminder, Chris. :thumbsup:

Again, I just don't know how disturbed to be about this because the cell phone cos are so much worse. I mean, even if OnStar wasn't able to track me, my GPS locator on my iPhone can, as evidenced by the recent iPhone tracking debacle. I don't see anyone putting down their iPhone (or any other cell phone--they've all got GPS locators).

muohio
09-23-11, 02:45 PM
I build those types of systems, it can be done rather easily given enough of an investment in hardware/software/manhours. All well within the range of onstar's budgets, esp given the potential revenue windfall just from insurance companies alone. (think of the savings the insurance companies would be looking at for reducing their payouts, if they can simply query onstar to see if the GM vehicle that just crashed matches up to their customers reporting of the incident...)

I have a little more insight into OnStar's system and their budget isn't large enough to build something like that.

RippyPartsDept
09-23-11, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Chris. :thumbsup:

Again, I just don't know how disturbed to be about this because the cell phone cos are so much worse. I mean, even if OnStar wasn't able to track me, my GPS locator on my iPhone can, as evidenced by the recent iPhone tracking debacle. I don't see anyone putting down their iPhone (or any other cell phone--they've all got GPS locators).

I also don't see this data getting abused by OnStar or anyone that they 'might' sell the data too...

security/privacy vs convenience
...
convenience always wins (with 99.9% of the populace)

smackdownCTSV
09-23-11, 03:10 PM
Still seems rather shady.

Mr. P.
09-23-11, 03:24 PM
I have a little more insight into OnStar's system and their budget isn't large enough to build something like that.
Agree completely. And if it were built to that degree I don't believe it would turn a profit. And additionally, for law enforcement use the data not only has to prove when & where & what the offense is, but also be able to prove absolutely who was driving the car; I would not panic until the day comes that an integrated camera is installed so that the logged data also includes incontrovertible proof that you were definitely piloting the car in an unlawful manner, until then you can say "sure you can prove it was my car, but you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt it was ME behind the wheel - case dismissed." IMO speed doesn't cause accidents, carelessness and irresponsibility does; the only accident in my 30-years behind the wheel happened in a parking lot at 10-mph, it didn't occur because I was driving too fast but rather because I was momentarily careless.


... When you go to renew your insurance and the company raises premiums because the average V driver exceeds the speed limit or takes their engine to redline more often than X type of cars... I'd rather they insure me based on my history and car choice...

I can totally see this happening; it would be too easy to build and underwriters are always trying to find ways to tailor their 'products' and pricing so that they can lower premiums in some cases (to attract more customers) and raise rates in other cases (to stay profitable).

Mr. P.

neuronbob
09-23-11, 03:25 PM
@smackdown
Yeah, but the general populace doesn't give a shiznit. That's why these big companies get away with this stuff. I care, personally, but am only one person.

smackdownCTSV
09-23-11, 04:13 PM
You think so? Quite a few people, liberals included, don't like cops entrapping them on the road. So I'm willing to bet they wouldn't like this either. There is a category of people who just don't know. So it's easy to say they don't care when they don't even know. My next visit to the dealer, I'll be telling them to disconnect it. **** big brother. I don't even use OnStar. It wasn't even a selling feature to me either. Their service is a scam and a sham.

JimmyH
09-23-11, 07:26 PM
When reputable insurance companies start raising the rates of customers in good standing based on unverified data from a third party, then maybe this argument will have merit.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. Once my trial period is up, I won't be renewing. It's overpriced. If the directions plan was, say, $50/year, I might go for that. I used it once in the camaro, and having the turns and distance to turn spoken, and displayed on the radio screen was kind of nice. Twice I forgot my cell phone, and it was nice having the onstar calling to fall back on. Not for $200+/year though.

dkozloski
09-23-11, 07:59 PM
OnStar is a CIA subsidiary agency.

RafCon
09-23-11, 08:18 PM
When reputable insurance companies start raising the rates of customers in good standing based on unverified data from a third party, then maybe this argument will have merit.

I have many cars insured through State Farm, all types. They use some type of category or tiered structure because just telling then about the V allowed them to tell me it is a class 24 (if I recall correctly) and that has a certain premium cost in the luxury high performance class. It doesn't matter I haven't had an accident in 20+ years or that I drive less than 3500 miles a year. I understand about the costs to repair or replace, but to insure my motorcycle, I pay almost the same amount per year as the V. No tickets, no accidents. Try and tell me that is because of the cost of replacing the bike (new in 2004 for 12K) or tell me that is because of the anonymous data they collect about motorcyclists and factor into my insurance costs.

Insurance companies stand to benefit the most by knowing our driving habits. Charging for habits, trends and possibilities via data we supplied them through onstar's new policy.

jb06810
09-23-11, 11:58 PM
I will wait, I use ONstar in many diferent situation -but in other hand I don't like idea to share all my driving habits police or insurance - btw they will prb lock me up for a years with banned DL after speedings there I done , my mom is pretty equal with me so ONstar will lost already two clients.

RippyPartsDept
09-24-11, 09:23 AM
motorcycle insurance prices have more to do with hospital costs than bike replacement costs


and they're not talking about selling individual data they're talking about aggregate data ... the police aren't going to buy onstar data to chase down traffic violations and insurance companies aren't going to buy onstar data to raise your rates because you speed ... they might have use for this aggregate data, but it's not going to be on an individual basis

JimmyH
09-24-11, 01:05 PM
Believe it or not the high cost o insurance on sport bikes has less to do with their performance and more to do with the insane cost of their fairings. Knocking over a sport bike in a parking lot while it's not even moving can result in a repair bill almost as high as going down on a highway. And parking lot spills are 100s of times more common. You could spend upwards of $1000 repairing a sport bike that was simply tipped over while parked. Sometimes more especially when that bike is lifted up then falls over on its other side. I have personally seen that happen.

Gary Wells
09-25-11, 10:35 AM
Anybody know where do you disconnect the On-Star antenna?
Confirmation on when and if you disconnect / cancel On-Star, do you lose ability to receive XM Radio?
I just signed up for a year of On-Star. If I cancel, will I get a refund for the balance of the year not used?
If I wanted somebody to record data for purposes of selling the data, I would hire a steno.

Trapspeed
09-25-11, 10:38 AM
Y'all, being in the business I can tell you the chances of getting issued tickets solely based on data from a car computer is 0. There's no way they could even come close to being defended in court so no one will even enterain the idea. If I were to ever get one I'd laugh at it. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to request tracking data, etc. on someone's vehicle but they are extreme and usually involve the possibilty of loss of life. I wouldn't sweat it.

SilveRT8
09-25-11, 01:15 PM
How can we disconnect On Star temporary, for let's say a day at the track ??
Any quick way ?

RippyPartsDept
09-25-11, 04:10 PM
i think it's cool when onstar calls you when you're on the track... the g-forces alert them that you've just crashed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8As1zshWxn0

second half of the video is the onstar stuff

stabie
09-25-11, 05:29 PM
For me, I always assumed they tracked me. In my case the benefits of them finding stuff for me without needing an address outweighs this. How many of those opposed to onstar have cellphones? That tracks your every move in or out of the car. How about smartphones? The Iphone in particular does some pretty intrusive stuff. Again for me a cellphone is worth it, smart phone nope. Lastly even posting this message is getting tracked. The browser cookies and javascripts are very intrusive. Again, how many here use something like noscript in their browser to minimize tracking? Delete cookies? Everything has a cost/benefit. If you don't want to be tracked, onstar made it clear how to disable. If only facebook and other websites followed this model.

JimmyH
09-25-11, 08:18 PM
If you don't want to be tracked, go live in the woods. Which sometimes, doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

GMX322V S/C
09-25-11, 08:54 PM
I called and they said the stuff they supply to their "partners," like insurance companies is anonymized. Personally identifiable data is only offered to LEO's and your listed insurance co. upon request, after an accident or under subpoena. FWIW.

bash535i
09-25-11, 09:47 PM
I called and they said the stuff they supply to their "partners," like insurance companies is anonymized. Personally identifiable data is only offered to LEO's and your listed insurance co. upon request, after an accident or under subpoena. FWIW.

I've got to agree that this must be the case. There is NO way, even with the lack of foresight that GM has shown at times, that they are going to disadvantage themselves by sellign information that drives customers away.

Think this scenario. A guy or gal is undecided between two sports cars, a Mustang and a Camaro. All else equal, what's he going to pick when he knows one of the vehicle is going to tattle tale on him (causing legal and insurance trouble) when he "plays around" with his new toy? It's beyond obvious that this is for general information, not to direct attention to individual drivers and their exploits.

elphil
09-26-11, 08:57 PM
Some news stories about the OnStar change. http://news.google.com/news/story?ncl=http://www.businessinsider.com/onstar-tracks-movement-privacy-policy-2011-9&hl=en&geo=us

MReiland
09-27-11, 02:35 PM
OnStar Reverses Decision to Change Terms and Conditions
OnStar announced today it is reversing its proposed Terms and Conditions policy changes and will not keep a data connection to customers’ vehicles after the OnStar service is canceled.

OnStar recently sent e-mails to customers telling them that effective Dec. 1, their service would change so that data from a customer vehicle would continue to be transmitted to OnStar after service was canceled – unless the customer asked for it to be shut off.
“We realize that our proposed amendments did not satisfy our subscribers,” OnStar President Linda Marshall said. “This is why we are leaving the decision in our customers’ hands. We listened, we responded and we hope to maintain the trust of our more than 6 million customers.”
If OnStar ever offers the option of a data connection after cancellation, it would only be when a customer opted-in, Marshall said. And then OnStar would honor customers’ preferences about how data from that connection is treated.
Maintaining the data connection would have allowed OnStar to provide former customers with urgent information about natural disasters and recalls affecting their vehicles even after cancelling their service. It also would have helped in planning future services, Marshall said.
“We regret any confusion or concern we may have caused,” Marshall said.

RippyPartsDept
09-27-11, 03:38 PM
This makes sense...

that was the only weird part about the whole thing was that they would make you opt out of the data aggregation even after you had opted out of the service ...

Slithering_Joe
01-07-12, 09:43 AM
I'll dust off this 3+ month old thread...

I wonder if OnStar would aid in the defense of an owner since they are collecting this data? Too good to be true I'm sure.

While driving home from a business trip, my cruise control was set at 55mph. During this time there were numerous cars passing me at well over the speed limit. Then I saw a police car tucked away on the road side. I joked to myself, "wouldn't it suck if I'm the one that gets pulled over?" Well in a matter of about 30 seconds after that thought, a police car pulls up behind me with a red/blue/white light show. He tells me he clocked me doing 76 in a 55. I politely say, "In no way was I doing 76. My cruise control was set at 55mph." Afterwards, he returned my lic/reg/ins and his last words for me were, " I did clock you at 76 in a 55 but I will let you go with a warning." (no paper work) I repeated that I was not doing 76 but then he threatened me with a court summons and the written ticket for the 76/55. I quickly and silently ended the conversation right there. What really disturbs me is that I have no defense against the claims of the police who cannot effectively use their equipment and/or use good judgement. Now I feel I must investigate and invest in a OBDII/GPS data logging device to prove my innocence if I don't get as "lucky" the next time this might happen. It's been 17 years since my last moving violation and I would like to keep that record going.

Wannago
01-07-12, 10:06 AM
I'll dust off this 3+ month old thread...

I wonder if OnStar would aid in the defense of an owner since they are collecting this data? Too good to be true I'm sure.

While driving home from a business trip, my cruise control was set at 55mph. During this time there were numerous cars passing me at well over the speed limit. Then I saw a police car tucked away on the road side. I joked to myself, "wouldn't it suck if I'm the one that gets pulled over?" Well in a matter of about 30 seconds after that thought, a police car pulls up behind me with a red/blue/white light show. He tells me he clocked me doing 76 in a 55. I politely say, "In no way was I doing 76. My cruise control was set at 55mph." Afterwards, he returned my lic/reg/ins and his last words for me were, " I did clock you at 76 in a 55 but I will let you go with a warning." (no paper work) I repeated that I was not doing 76 but then he threatened me with a court summons and the written ticket for the 76/55. I quickly and silently ended the conversation right there. What really disturbs me is that I have no defense against the claims of the police who cannot effectively use their equipment and/or use good judgement. Now I feel I must investigate and invest in a OBDII/GPS data logging device to prove my innocence if I don't get as "lucky" the next time this might happen. It's been 17 years since my last moving violation and I would like to keep that record going.

I've got a Beltronics STi-R Plus custom installed radar detector in my V. Not only is it a top of the line detector, it also data logs (has a built-in GPS) which you can download as a spreadsheet. Anytime the unit detects any radar or laser, it records the data. The data include the date & time, your direction of travel, the speed at which you were travelling, and the frequency of the radar signal. I haven't had to use it yet, but thought this this data might come in handy if I ever got into a situation like you described. If you are in teh market for a radar detector, this might be something for you to consider.

I also frequently mount a video camera to my windshield. Countour has a HD/GPS model that includes your heading/speed as part of the video. That wold be the perfect tool to prove your case in situations like you just described.