: So just how much TORQUE/HP can the CTS-V Rear End take??



Dr. Design
09-21-11, 07:38 PM
Hello,
So just how much TORQUE/HP can the CTS-V Rear End take?? Well the better question is how much can the rear axle CV's take? We decided to test the limits of the OEM components in our Drag CTS-V. As many of our customers know we have been spending a lot of time at the track this summer testing out new products and such. With all factory rear end components we mounted MT Drag Radials in the 305 variant. The vehicle is an upgraded CTS-V (auto) making about 900+ ft lbs of tq and about the same HP. In this latest test session we were testing our chassis bracing and monitoring the incremental gains in our 60' times. This was the 3rd run of the test session and maybe the ~60th run on this drivetrain.

On launches from an idle we were able to get some fairly good grip:
http://www.d3cadillac.com/graphics/releases/Race%20Cars/D3%20CTS-V%20Project%20Drag%20Race%20Sedan.jpg
As you can see we just about have the front wheels off the ground.....

Unfortunately/Fortunately we were also able to do this:
http://www.d3cadillac.com/graphics/releases/Race%20Cars/09CTSV%20Rear%20Axle%20CV.jpg
As you can see here the bearing case for the CV was not able to withstand the load it was subjected to and exploded. The result is a bunch of new "smaller" parts (not all of them are pictured because we left a few at the track). Not to worry, this is why we spend so much time testing. We are now already developing axles and CV's built specifically for extreme high HP/TQ setups. List price will be $1700 (set), more information on the official release of that later.

We wanted to share these images with the community to show what we were able to research through testing. Granted we can get this part changed out under warranty, but why replace with OEM when you can replace with higher grade components? Please let us know if there are any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Bushidopupil
09-21-11, 07:59 PM
The Hp/Tq figures mention above, are they crank or RW numbers?
Thanks

P.S Good launch pic.

Dr. Design
09-21-11, 08:05 PM
Hello,
Thanks!

Those numbers are crank, and they are conservative.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


The Hp/Tq figures mention above, are they crank or RW numbers?
Thanks

P.S Good launch pic.

serturbo
09-21-11, 10:27 PM
Any visible wear elsewhere? Possible twisting of the splines at either end?

Also, props for taking the time to share with the V2 community.

shade
09-22-11, 12:04 AM
Stock transmission? If so how does it look? Have you pulled the pan to look at the wear.
That would be valuable information to the community.

M5eater
09-22-11, 09:53 AM
I'm overall pleased with how much torque it took on multiple passes before you sheared some axles. Could be a little better, could be a lot worse, but it looks like a good amount of head-room for the casual road-racer wanting to make another 200 stallions.

Tedboss1
09-22-11, 10:18 AM
What was your best 1/4 mile time with that car?

gnxs
09-22-11, 11:53 AM
I think that's the first failure I've seen. When GM went to address the issues here on the 1st gen CTS-V, they really stepped up.

haterinc
09-22-11, 12:27 PM
It sounds like there were some repeated passes and pushing it to the limits but I'd agree although this is a great option should this occur, unless you're pushing over 800rwhp I'm not sure how often you'd see this? Keep us posted and thanks for putting in the R&D and sharing the results.

M5eater
09-22-11, 01:36 PM
It sounds like there were some repeated passes and pushing it to the limits but I'd agree although this is a great option should this occur, unless you're pushing over 800rwhp I'm not sure how often you'd see this? Keep us posted and thanks for putting in the R&D and sharing the results.

yup, there's not much left wanting with regard to the V's powertrain. Strong Iron rear diff, different sized half-shafts that are also pretty strong, both transmissions can take a couple of hundred HP over stock , and the engine is so cheap to modify it's crazy.

newcadman
09-22-11, 09:21 PM
Might want to check out "600 CTS-V's" thread titled " testing in the heat " and watch the video( 9.98 @ 140 ) of the fastest V currently on the forum to help discover the answer to the question re: how much Torque/ HP the CTS-V rear end can take.

If not mistaken, I believe this V makes in the neighborhood of 865 for both TQ & HP and he makes mention he's still running the stock rear end !

FWIW & IMHO, that's impressive.

M5eater
09-22-11, 09:23 PM
Might worthwhile to check out "600 CTS-V's" thread titled " testing in the heat " and watch the video( 9.98 @ 140 ) of the fastest V currently on the forum to help discover the answer to the question re: how much Torque/ HP the CTS-V can take.

If not mistaken, I believe this V makes in the neighborhood of 865 for both TQ & HP and he makes mention he's still running the stock rear end !

FWIW & IMHO, that's impressive.

The only other drivetrain I can think of that would come close is an 01e and quattro in the B5. Stock OE Axles with 100K and stock 01E are all good to 1000+, it of course has the advantage of splitting torque to twice the wheels however, so you'd need more in the neighborhood of 1600-1700hp to start to approach what 865hp is asking from the two in the V2.

*golf clap for GM*

Dr. Design
09-22-11, 09:43 PM
No. We did a full inspection upon tear down and everything looked good. Looks like all the load was taken by the CV carriage. No problem!



Any visible wear elsewhere? Possible twisting of the splines at either end?

Also, props for taking the time to share with the V2 community.


SHADE - Stock transmission. We are deliberately leaving it stock to see how far we can push it. As of now it will remain stock.

M5eater - Agreed. To be honest with you, we were expecting other areas to go before this. But this is why we do this to see what the weak points are so we can build better products. We are still only running our base engine setup.

Tedboss1 - We aren't really focused on that right now. more the 60' launches for most of our testing. We will take the car to Vegas and run it out there to see what it can do on a good track.

gnxs - Clearly we wouldn't want to speak for GM, but they might not have too much to worry about. I think we have been trying to beat the piss out of this car on the track to get stuff like this to happen. I think it is slightly out of the norm what we are doing to this car. Most people shouldn't have this issue. We just wanted to bring it up and show what can happen given certain circumstances.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

cbloveday
09-23-11, 08:47 AM
Could you please advise what other suspension alterations have been done to the car.

Specifically,

1.) Does it have the D3 lowering springs in addition to chasis support mod?

2.) How many runs (approximately) was each component on the car.

I have run my car 35 times (counted the slips) and in that 35 times, I have hit 60foot times that were under 1.5 four times with no other mods to the suspension. I too run MTs but in the 305/35/18 size.

My sub 1.5 times were:
1.484
1.496
1.497
My PB year to date is 1.481 on 5/22/11

So, my axle breaking may be imminent.



What I am respectfully getting at here is:

The photo is alarming and I appreciate the testing, the disclosure, and the submittal of proof, for this failure.


However, I need to eliminate in my mind that no other suspension alterations contributed to this failure,
as this is the first report of an axle failure to my knowledge.

I would suspect I am not the only one considering this and your addressing this inquiry should satisfy my concerns and others that may feel the same.

Thank you in advance for a reply.

newcadman
09-23-11, 02:12 PM
Might be worthwhile to keep in mind the old adage, " if it ain't broken, don't fix it !"

Dr. Design
09-23-11, 07:42 PM
Hello,
Finally able to get to this question...

The vehicles suspension is completely stock less the aforementioned chassis bracing. The vehicle has the OEM springs for a CTS-V, as well as all other suspension components. No D3 sway bars or springs are on this car.

I know we are over 65 runs on this car.

Your concerns are valid and expected given the circumstances and conditions in which your vehicle is running/setup. Obviously the purpose of the post was not to strike fear in everyone's hearts, but more to show just some of the items we found through extensive testing on the track. The result is new half shafts with upgraded CV's rated to take over 1000HP. So there is some benefit to knowing this information. We are letting everyone know we already have a solution to this problem should the unfortunate happen.

Let us know if there are any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac




Could you please advise what other suspension alterations have been done to the car.

Specifically,

1.) Does it have the D3 lowering springs in addition to chasis support mod?

2.) How many runs (approximately) was each component on the car.

I have run my car 35 times (counted the slips) and in that 35 times, I have hit 60foot times that were under 1.5 four times with no other mods to the suspension. I too run MTs but in the 305/35/18 size.

My sub 1.5 times were:
1.484
1.496
1.497
My PB year to date is 1.481 on 5/22/11

So, my axle breaking may be imminent.



What I am respectfully getting at here is:

The photo is alarming and I appreciate the testing, the disclosure, and the submittal of proof, for this failure.


However, I need to eliminate in my mind that no other suspension alterations contributed to this failure,
as this is the first report of an axle failure to my knowledge.

I would suspect I am not the only one considering this and your addressing this inquiry should satisfy my concerns and others that may feel the same.

Thank you in advance for a reply.

cbloveday
09-23-11, 09:33 PM
Thank you addressing my inquiry and keep up the good work of developing and testing new products for our cars.
Should I experience a failure of this nature, I know who to contact for a solution.

newcadman
09-23-11, 11:07 PM
Tedboss1 - We aren't really focused on that right now. more the 60' launches for most of our testing. We will take the car to Vegas and run it out there to see what it can do on a good track.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac








Despite your comments that " On launches from idle we were able to get some fairly good grip" and " we just about have the front wheels off the ground", it would certainly appear the Fontana track was more than adequate to produce some good 60' times.

Although you make mention that running the 1/4 mi. wasn't really the focus, perhaps you would be good enough to share with us the 60 ' times that you were recording so we may compare the 60' times to the good track you make mention of when you run in Vegas.

Thank you.

cbloveday
09-24-11, 01:20 AM
I was hoping to know if you were launching off idle or at a higher rpm when the axle broke.

Dr. Design
09-27-11, 01:51 PM
On that run we were launching off idle.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


I was hoping to know if you were launching off idle or at a higher rpm when the axle broke.

newcadman
09-27-11, 02:40 PM
On that run we were launching off idle.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


How about sharing some of your idle versus higher RPM launch 60' times for comparison?

serturbo
09-27-11, 04:21 PM
In my experience, the V2 launches much better off idle. It seems sluggish when loading up the tranny.

newcadman
09-27-11, 09:31 PM
In my experience, the V2 launches much better off idle. It seems sluggish when loading up the tranny.


Still would be good to see what D3's 60' testing results shows.

Dr. Design
09-27-11, 09:42 PM
Hello,
That would actually be a different topic all together. Our intent was not to come on here and compare 60' and different launching techniques, but more to bring light to what we noticed in testing. However understanding that there is SOME relevance to the question, the majority of our launches are in the 1.6X range depending on how much grip we can get. Most of the time we are balancing wheel spin issues off the line. We have even gone so far to as launch in 2nd and 3rd to try and reduce wheel speed.

As mentioned in the previous post the run that broke the CV ran a 1.70 60' breaking 10' before the 60' marker.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


How about sharing some of your idle versus higher RPM launch 60' times for comparison?

newcadman
09-28-11, 12:36 PM
Hello,
That would actually be a different topic all together. Our intent was not to come on here and compare 60' and different launching techniques, but more to bring light to what we noticed in testing. However understanding that there is SOME relevance to the question, the majority of our launches are in the 1.6X range depending on how much grip we can get. Most of the time we are balancing wheel spin issues off the line. We have even gone so far to as launch in 2nd and 3rd to try and reduce wheel speed.

As mentioned in the previous post the run that broke the CV ran a 1.70 60' breaking 10' before the 60' marker.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



I believe the question was " idle versus higher RPM launch 60' times for comparison ?". In spite of the fact there is an acknowledgment of "SOME relevance" to the question, there certainly appears to be a reluctance to answer the question with any kind of definitive clarity with respect to idle versus higher RPM launches 60' times.

Nebulous by design or perhaps a comparison of the requested 60' times are of a clandestine nature!

M5eater
09-28-11, 01:05 PM
What relevence does launch times have to do with breaking axles aside from wanting to know whether it was off idle vs loaded (presumably to say, high stress vs less stress launching) . Sorry, I will have to side with D3 here, I'm not understanding what you're asking of them has anything to do with how much torque will break a CV cage. I would guess to know whether it's worth the risk of breaking them, but this is something you could identify on a stock car, and on your own time.

haterinc
09-28-11, 01:55 PM
I'd have to disagree as a lot of things come into play with the converter off the line and how the launch is made, tire pressures, etc... hard parts vs. soft parts. I'm not against D3 here at all as I think these will come in handy as these cars continue to push further into the 9s... but any info they're willing to share is relevant to a buyer.

M5eater
09-28-11, 02:13 PM
I'd have to disagree as a lot of things come into play with the converter off the line and how the launch is made, tire pressures, etc... hard parts vs. soft parts. I'm not against D3 here at all as I think these will come in handy as these cars continue to push further into the 9s... but any info they're willing to share is relevant to a buyer.
The question was, how are their acutal 60' times relevent? Knowing whether they broke on idle or hard launches is one thing, knowing whether they shaved 2/10ths off the idle by hard launching though... why does that matter?

I agree that the free-flow of information would be nice, but to their point, I see 60' times and teqnique as a completly different topic. They started the thread to post generalized observations on a single malfunction-- even if they were to post this stuff up, without corresponding multiple failures there's no way of knowing what you have. Their OP says they had 60 runs on the axles, do you honestly expect them to post up every one(or even 20 of those) and what type of launch that was, with X driver, in X conditions, with X mods?

newcadman
09-28-11, 04:04 PM
any info they're willing to share is relevant to a buyer.





Requesting D3's findings on an idle versus higher RPM launches 60' comparison was an innocuous attempt to perhaps learn what their testing showed as a result of their apparently extensive hard launchings of the car(s).

However, their lack of an answer would certainly appear to be indicate a reluctance to address the original basic question. Guess they don't feel such a question is relevant or helpful to a buyer.

If that's their modus operandi so be it.

M5eater
09-28-11, 04:30 PM
Requesting D3's findings on an idle versus higher RPM launches 60' comparison was an innocuous attempt to perhaps learn what their testing showed as a result of their apparently extensive hard launchings of the car(s).

However, their lack of an answer would certainly appear to be indicate a reluctance to address the original basic question. Guess they don't feel such a question is relevant or helpful to a buyer.

If that's their modus operandi so be it.

I would agree, that may be of some help. However, how often are modified cars consistient to this degree when stuff breaks? Unless you're planning on an exact clone of this car with the exact same driver, any conclusions you draw will be irrelevent. I've never been apart of a platform where there's a precise line drawn in the sand as to when/where parts break. It's always a 'more or less' estimate because there are simply too many variables to draw a conclusion that accurate.

BLitzkrieg
09-29-11, 12:08 PM
Order in the court!!!

vetkila
09-29-11, 07:46 PM
Newcadman is bringing up some valid points that I also would like to see answered before I would even consider purchasing a product like this!

Dr. Design
09-29-11, 08:52 PM
1.67 (power brake) vs. 1.64 (launch off idle)


Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



I believe the question was " idle versus higher RPM launch 60' times for comparison ?". In spite of the fact there is an acknowledgment of "SOME relevance" to the question, there certainly appears to be a reluctance to answer the question with any kind of definitive clarity with respect to idle versus higher RPM launches 60' times.

Nebulous by design or perhaps a comparison of the requested 60' times are of a clandestine nature!

haterinc
09-30-11, 05:56 PM
I would agree, that may be of some help. However, how often are modified cars consistient to this degree when stuff breaks? Unless you're planning on an exact clone of this car with the exact same driver, any conclusions you draw will be irrelevent. I've never been apart of a platform where there's a precise line drawn in the sand as to when/where parts break. It's always a 'more or less' estimate because there are simply too many variables to draw a conclusion that accurate.

Devil's advocate much? Lol may as well throw in there no 2 parts are made exactly alike

Dr. Design
10-04-11, 06:57 PM
http://www.d3cadillac.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/D3-1000HP-Axels-3.jpg

The new axles are now available!!!

http://www.d3cadillac.com/news/latest-news/d31khpaxle

We will be back at the track shortly to see what else we can break!

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

newcadman
10-04-11, 07:16 PM
http://www.d3cadillac.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/D3-1000HP-Axels-3.jpg

The new axles are now available!!!

http://www.d3cadillac.com/news/latest-news/d31khpaxle

We will be back at the track shortly to see what else we can break!

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac




In what ways do your new axles differ from the OEM axles ?

When will you be going to the " good" track in Vegas that you made reference to earlier?

If you let us know the date(s) maybe some members could stop by and watch the testing / action.

Dr. Design
10-04-11, 09:05 PM
For starters much better materials are used compared to factory. The CV's are upgraded over that of factory. Furthermore the center bars are all chromoly material. At the end of the day these axles are built and engineered to withstand this type of power level.

All I can say is that we are going to the track soon. Don't have the exact date as we are still working on quite a few builds right now both for customers and the SEMA Show. Unfortunately racing isn't the highest thing on our priority list right now, but we will be out there soon.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


In what ways do your new axles differ from the OEM axles ?

When will you be going to the " good" track in Vegas that you made reference to earlier?

If you let us know the date(s) maybe some members could stop by and watch the testing / action.

haterinc
10-04-11, 11:10 PM
Weight diff?

newcadman
10-05-11, 02:16 PM
For starters much better materials are used compared to factory. The CV's are upgraded over that of factory. Furthermore the center bars are all chromoly material. At the end of the day these axles are built and engineered to withstand this type of power level.

All I can say is that we are going to the track soon. Don't have the exact date as we are still working on quite a few builds right now both for customers and the SEMA Show. Unfortunately racing isn't the highest thing on our priority list right now, but we will be out there soon.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac






You make mention of using much better materials. Could you perhaps be more specific as to what materials are being used to make these axles better/ stronger/ more durable ?

Also, reference is made to the CV's being upgraded over factory. Could you also be more specific with respect to what exactly has been done to these axles for them to be described as upgraded ?

Will you be offering any type of warranty on these axles ?

When you are scheduled to visit the track would you kindly post a thread announcing when and where in order that any interested members may observe the extensive testing ?

Thank you

Dr. Design
10-07-11, 07:58 PM
Hello,
Stock is 25 lbs. compared to 28 lbs. on the heavy duty unit.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Weight diff?

Dr. Design
10-07-11, 08:23 PM
Hello,
As previously mentioned the center bars are chromoly. The inner and outer stubs are also of the same materials. The bearing cages are of higher quality grade materials and do not have the pores material from the factory.

All axles come with a 1 year warranty.

If this is something you are interested in getting for your car, please feel free to contact us directly at our offices or email info@d3cadillac.com.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


You make mention of using much better materials. Could you perhaps be more specific as to what materials are being used to make these axles better/ stronger/ more durable ?

Also, reference is made to the CV's being upgraded over factory. Could you also be more specific with respect to what exactly has been done to these axles for them to be described as upgraded ?

Will you be offering any type of warranty on these axles ?

When you are scheduled to visit the track would you kindly post a thread announcing when and where in order that any interested members may observe the extensive testing ?

Thank you

newcadman
10-07-11, 09:25 PM
Hello,
As previously mentioned the center bars are chromoly. The inner and outer stubs are also of the same materials. The bearing cages are of higher quality grade materials and do not have the pores material from the factory.

All axles come with a 1 year warranty.

If this is something you are interested in getting for your car, please feel free to contact us directly at our offices or email info@d3cadillac.com.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac






Thank you for the additional info.

However, with respect to the previous request to your posting a date and time of your next testing session at the track I note it was not addressed.

Does this mean that your track testing sessions are private closed sessions with no possibility of any interested forum members being allowed to attend ?

Thank you.

Dr. Design
10-07-11, 10:38 PM
We go to the track for testing. This is not a planned "event" and we never implied it was or was not, not sure where the 3rd degree is coming from.... We are there for the purpose of testing. We just mentioned that we would be back at the track testing shortly. If you or members want to attend, we will be at the track and if we have time we will post asking members if they would like to come out also. We don't have a scheduled date for testing at this time because our focus is on SEMA and the vehicles we are building for debut at the show.

Again, if this PRODUCT is something you are interested in getting for your car, please feel free to contact us directly at our offices or email info@d3cadillac.com. There you can also communicate with a rep that can gather your information and keep you on mailing list alerting you of any public events in which you can see a D3 car run if that is something you are interested in.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac





Thank you for the additional info.

However, with respect to the previous request to your posting a date and time of your next testing session at the track I note it was not addressed.

Does this mean that your track testing sessions are private closed sessions with no possibility of any interested forum members being allowed to attend ?

Thank you.

newcadman
10-08-11, 12:31 AM
We go to the track for testing. This is not a planned "event" and we never implied it was or was not, not sure where the 3rd degree is coming from.... We are there for the purpose of testing. We just mentioned that we would be back at the track testing shortly. If you or members want to attend, we will be at the track and if we have time we will post asking members if they would like to come out also. We don't have a scheduled date for testing at this time because our focus is on SEMA and the vehicles we are building for debut at the show.

Again, if this PRODUCT is something you are interested in getting for your car, please feel free to contact us directly at our offices or email info@d3cadillac.com. There you can also communicate with a rep that can gather your information and keep you on mailing list alerting you of any public events in which you can see a D3 car run if that is something you are interested in.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



How unfortunate that a simple track date & time request appears to have touched your ( 3rd degree) nerve !

BTW, interesting to hear you say that somebody on your mailing list will be alerted of any public events in which they can see a D3 run. Good that you made mention of it here, otherwise I'm sure others wouldn't have known either.

Greg O.
04-28-14, 10:37 PM
ttt how much? still $1700