: Sticker price vs. invoice

PTC Sclade
10-24-04, 08:27 PM
I currently own an 03 White Diamond Esclade and love it. Been doing lots of looking and am going to purchase an STS as well. Kind of curious when it is thought that dealers will begin to negotiate towards invoice rather than staying with the sticker price? How soon do you think Cadillac will have enough production out there to start pushing the dealers to negotiate? I do not want an STS just to be one of the "first on the block." If need be I can wait until late spring or summer. Just curious what all of you think. Thanks. This site has been most helpful and informative.

10-24-04, 08:33 PM
The vibe I got from the deal was that, this is a new car for 05, it's great...we know it and you know it! I got a GM supplier discount on mine (most dealerships turn me down due it just coming out), and I must say it was a big help on the 1SE package. The GM supplier discount is not negotiable, but it was enough to say I want this car! I can tell you...shop around within a 100 hundred mile radius and see what you can negotiate. Might be awhile before you can get a good deal though.

10-24-04, 08:54 PM
1. Forget "Shopping around" it wastes both your time and salesman's time, and does nothing.

2. Go to http://www.kbb.com and then to Sedans and then to Cadillac and then to STS. Price out exactly what you want. Add everything, be carefull and double check your work. Total it & print it. You'll notice that one column is LIST and the otrher column is INVOICE. In addition to this INVOICE there a bunch of little charges that the factory assess the dealer on each car's individual invoice. Add $400.00 for that. It's for Dealer Participating Advertising, Initial gas, Dealer Zone Funds and on & on & on. Individually, they each average like $60.00 or so. Okay.....

3. After getting the Invoice, adding the $400.00 you have dead dealer cost. To that add $900.00.

4. Next, go to the smallest Cadillac Dealer you can find, in the area where you either live or work. Try & stay OFF the highway, and faaar away from the "Highway Wheeler Dealer" types. >>> Okay, we are at the dealer now. Look around and talk CAR ~ do **NOT** talk price. IF IF IF the salesperson begins to talk price, ask CAR QUESTIONS, not price qestions!
If you decide that's the brand/model car you want, or think you want, ask to take a Demo ride in one.

5. After the Demo Ride, if you are still madly in love and want one of your own, read off the options that you want, and tell the salesperson that you want to ORDER it, and he/she should tell you what it will cost.
He/she will figure out the Invoice, (as you did at home) and hit you with a price. THAT price, I promise will be higher than what you have jotted down, along with your selected options.

6. He hits you with the price. HERE'S THE KEY PART >> YOU produce either a CHECK BOOK or a CREDIT CARD, and speak this:

"I am prepared to either leave you a check or give you at deposit to order this car right now, you can write it up. I will pay$_____________. " (and) You use the # you arrived at - at home. Invoice + $400.00 factory applied costs to dealer + $900.00. IFthe salesperson says NO. Then you satnd up, say thnk you, and politely leave the dealership. Make sure the salesperson has your name & telephone #.
DO NOT MOVE OFF YOUR OFFER !! Do not come UP $25.00 !!!! Once you come up, you are a dead duck, and you wasted all that time. Make a fair offer and do not budge.

Shopping around will do nothing but get you on a low ball merry-go-round and be a big waste of energy & time.

If you are financing, ask the rate, ask how much the dealer fees are and ask for a total & complete breakout. Before signing, ask at you bank what they can do.

Do not buy out of stock even if they have the identical car you want, right down to color & interior....still ORDER IT.

Cars in stock dealers have been paying floor plan (interest) on which they wish to recoup thru you, via add'l. profit. You can get a better deal on an ordered car. No Floor Plan for 30 days on most units. An ordered car come in.......and goes right out. Costs the dealer nothing !!
...and therefore costs you nothing, towards Floor Plan.

At delivery time, be sure to scrutenize any finance papers & and fees. READ READ READ.

Lastly, before driving away. give your salesperson a $20. bill as a "tip" ~ for a Twenty Spot you'll own him, and he'll never forget you, and he'll go to bat for you and always be on your side! You'll leave a positive mark that will last as long as he's working there, and you're a customer there. :welcome:

60 special
10-25-04, 10:18 AM
Why do you feel that $900.00 over dead dealer cost is enough profit for the dealer to operate on in the new car department? Car salesmen are still paid about a 25% commision on the amount over invoice that the car is sold for. 25% of $900.00 is $225.00. A salesman may be paid a small salary, but generally their entire income is from commissions and factory incentives for the number of units sold.

If the salesman averages $225.00 per car sold, he's not going to be able to make a living selling cars. Eventually dealerships are going to hire salespeople that are young and not as well educated about the product and be able to fully explain the vehicle to the buyer. It may even come down to dealers stocking one or two of each model car or truck and you sit down with an employee and order your car. What is wrong with buying a car out of stock?

Everyone that has a job is a salesperson. You sell your skills to your employer. if you are very good at what you do, you should be paid more. If a salesman is very good, why shouldn't he make more?

10-25-04, 11:03 AM
$900 over invoice is a good profit for the dealer.
If it is a $50,000 car then there is a $1500 holdback.

10-25-04, 11:05 AM
$900 over invoice is a good profit for the dealer.
If it is a $50,000 car then there is a $1500 holdback.

I paid invoice for my SRX.
There invoice was not the same as Kbb's.
It had the advertising fees built in.

Then I got the Instant value certificates on top of that.

One thing you missed was that a dealer has allocation on certain cars and
if you order it from a small dealer it may take a while to come.

10-25-04, 12:09 PM
"" if you order it from a small dealer it may take a while to come."" ~
That's only on inventory units. SOLD orders all get equal priority.

10-25-04, 12:12 PM
It's more than advertising fees.
Zone Fees
Initial Gas & Oil
among others.

Not positive, but I hink about 6 different charges, assessed from the manufacturer to the dealer, passed on to the buyer.

60 special
10-25-04, 02:33 PM
$900 over invoice is a good profit for the dealer.
If it is a $50,000 car then there is a $1500 holdback.

I paid invoice for my SRX.
There invoice was not the same as Kbb's.
It had the advertising fees built in.

Then I got the Instant value certificates on top of that.

One thing you missed was that a dealer has allocation on certain cars and
if you order it from a small dealer it may take a while to come.

How can you figure out what holdback the dealer has? What do you base the $1,500 on a $50,000 car on?

10-25-04, 03:05 PM
Wouldnt a dealer be willing to deal more on a car on the lot since IT IS paying for it to be there? And i wouldnt discourage going to a few dealerships. Also holdback and incentives is hard to figure out its not just a flat dollar amount.

10-25-04, 05:31 PM
Holdback is 3% of invoice, 90% of the time, on Cadillacs. There is NO holdback on Audi vehicles, the only car that does not have such.
I do not know of any Cadillac dealer that would not take a $900.000 deal.
It's $900.00 + expected profit on the trade-in + $1,000 to $$1,600 hold back, on a car he's never paid Floor Plan on, that comes in & zips out.
Bing, Bang, Boom + finance $$ if there's any.

10-25-04, 06:06 PM
True, but they are paying floorplan on those cars and would like to get rid of them.
Also there is often less of an incentive to order for the salesman because he might not be there 2 days from now, much less 6 weeks from now.
I guess after about 45 days floorplan has eaten up most of their profit and they need to find ways to make a profit on the car.
If their instant value certificates you probably won't get those if you order.

I used to always order my cars. When I ordered my '87 IROC in March 1987,
I knew that Camaro sales had started to slow down.
The car came in May 21st and there just happened to be a $1,000 rebate.
I got $650 of it and went out the door a very happy 24 year old camper with a $115mo. payment.
Some times things go your way and other times they don't.

10-25-04, 06:40 PM
All things considered. you'll almost always do better ordering.

When I bought my '03 Town Car, there was a rebate on it of $3,000. My salesman located an identical unit. I didn't want it, because it had been in stock (outside) for January, February & March sitting in the snow and I wanted a fresh one, flawless, as I am anal about my cars. So, I ordered it. Of course, he was not happy about that. However when it arrived, the rebate had grown to $5,000. I made $2,000 by waiting 6 weeks, and received a fresh unit.

10-25-04, 08:41 PM
Yeah the fact that the car has not really been sitting out or touched is motivation for wanting to order but I just go for whatever i can get the best deal on. I am gona wait till the demand dies down some before I get my STS besides I cant get AWD as a freeflow option, maybe that will happen if i wait. That rebate worked out well for you, another good motivation to order.

10-25-04, 10:43 PM
90% of the time, once the factory puts a 'bate on a line (model) it just about never goes down. To lower it is suicidal, usually it will increase! Worst case is it stays the same. I actually got $9,000 off MSRLP on my TC. $5,000 rebate, $1,000 owner loyality, $500.00 fror belonging to AARP, $2,500 off of sticker. Sticker was $44,654 & I paid $35,650.00.

10-25-04, 10:54 PM
I'm not sure if any or all Caddy's are in the program but check out the Costco and Sam's Club buying programs.

60 special
10-27-04, 08:17 AM
I don't know about other areas of the country, but there are STS's available in the D.C. area at all 4 Cadillac dealerships. The STS launch has been nothing like the CTS, which was red hot and continued that way for quite a while. This is my own opinion, but within three to six months you'll have your pick of STS's right on a dealer's lot. Just look at the number of people viewing the STS page everyday here on the forums versus the number viewing the CTS page. Of course there are more CTS's on the road, but wouldn't you think Cadillac's latest and greatest would generate a tremendous amount of talk on line like Chrysler's 300?

10-27-04, 10:08 AM
The negotiating option that I find interesting (haven't done it yet though) is to know exactly what car your want with all the options you want. Go to three seperate dealers that have them and ask them to write down the lowest price they are willing to go and put it in a sealed envelope and let them know that you'll open it at the 3rd dealer and the one with the lowest price will get your business. You might not get the absolute best price, but you won't have to deal with negotiating with all of them either.

PTC Sclade
10-28-04, 02:00 PM
See my new thread titled Some dealers are "dealing". Process was not too painful at all.

10-28-04, 03:23 PM
Kook, as a car salesman for 27 years, let me address your comment.

#1. An Honest House, and a honest sales rep will absolutly, positively Never-but-never do that !

#2. All you are doing is inviting....no cross that out, PLEADING for them to low ball you, in order to get you back, and "work" you. You are wasting your time. On paper it sounds good. In the real world, that bird won't fly a foot.

#3. You cannot buy a car every two, three, four or seven years and hope or expect to out smart a guy who sells a car everyday! Forget about it.

#4. If you wanna be delt with in an honest & forthright fashion, you must play that way too. You want to play "tricks" ~ BUT God forbid your sales rep. plays tricks, right??? :helpless:

10-28-04, 04:03 PM

I agree with you!!!

PTC Sclade
10-28-04, 04:21 PM
I beg to differ with you. They were willing to talk and meet my criteria. As they said, "We do not want to lose your business." They look at it as more referrals as well as service on two vehicles sold to me by them. The deal was done on a handshake and the vehicle is considered sold.

10-28-04, 06:01 PM
I agree with you - in general - except that buying a new car is no different from any other transaction: Becoming educated about the product you want to buy, offering a fair profit to the dealer and expecting a fair deal for yourself are all reasonable goals.

I deal with Sewell Cadillac in Dallas - and only one salesman there - and they're a huge dealdership. I bought an SRX from then four months ago and am looking to pick up an STS in the next several days.

My standard offer is $500 over invoice, I keep all incentives, and they keep the holdback. If they don't have the *exact* car on the ground, I'm happy to order one. I ask for a fair price on my trade-in (Using both KBB & Edmunds as reference points - and then averaging their numbers. Edmunds tends to be too high, KBB too low on trades). I'm not against the dealership making a profit, but as a consumer and a laissez faire capitalist, that's not my primary concern. They're in business to look out for their own interests and I'm looking out for mine. There are times they want to make a deal, so they do so in their own interest - not out of the goodness of their hearts. If they don't want to make the deal I want, there are a lot of other dealers out there.

I'm fortunate in that Sewell values making the sale and taking small profits on lots of cars. It's the kind of relationship that makes markets move - not just inuring profit to one party at the expense of another.

Finally, with regard to honesty: With all the consumer protections already in place, the only consumer who can be taken advantage of is one who is unprepared to scrutinize *every* component of the deal. I've discovered many "errors" this way and refuse to "sign on the dotted line" until all the I's and T's are correct. People are only as honest as you make them be.

10-28-04, 07:52 PM
True ! :) I heard of that dealership. Texas, Yes ??

When I went to order my 1993 Sixty Special, I went to my regular dealership, a mile from my house. However. the salesman I always delt with had retired, and I got a new one who I immediately told that I sold Dodges at xyz dodge and I wanted to order a Caddy. He was like 19 Y.O and fresh outta GM training. He started on me with all the "tricks" ~ I told him to cut it out, gave him a list of what I wanted, what window sticker would be & what his invoce was. He freaked out and lost interest in me. So....I went to a "Highway Whore House & Processing Meat Market" - They insisted I finance at 16.5% in order to get a "good deal" ~ I left there inside of 20 minutes, and returned to my at home dealer & went inside to the Sale Mgr. Who knew me. I said to him. YOU wanna take my order for the car I want, or do I go elsewhere, 'cause I ain't dealing with THAT guy out there? He did and we ordered & I bought for $600.00 over invoice. Then he tried to dunk me with a $175.00 Doc Fee. I picked up the pen, wrote him a check for $300.00 deposit, and scratched out the DOC FEE. Told him "I don't pay that"! Professional Courtesy, 'ya know! He :D :D and said Okay, Sandy. When the car arrived, my "salesman" (the 19 year old) was history & over at the Subie store. So....point is, even a car salesman has a hard time buying at another dealership!!! (Now, I drive Lincolns - 3rd one I'm on) as my best & lifelong friend (like a brother) sells them to me for $200 over invoice, and very locally.
But, I still have my Sixty Special, and always will. It's my favorite Caddy!

10-28-04, 08:06 PM

I also deal with Sewell Cadillac in Dallas. Since 1978. They are the GREATEST. Rich Parker is who I deal with.

10-28-04, 08:12 PM
:thumbsup: Sandy,
Great Response! Let me add if you would: The "infamous best deal question" Does anyone here know or realize the cost of a franchised dealership, the property, building, maintenance, inventory, advertising, payroll, utilities, etc? I certainly do. If we sold every car at $100 over (regardless of floorplan assistance or holdback) or even $900 over as some would suggest, it wouldn't take long before the consumers choices in the number of dealerships dwindled, and went broke. Imagine having only 1 Cadillac dealer in your city to choose from. How 'good' of a deal would you get then? So much for free trade. Dealers WANT your business and if everyone plays fair, and understands a fair profit and the aggregate cost of doing business, then it all comes together. Next time you need jewelry, furniture, a credit card, a mortgage, shoes, or a haircut GO TO 3 and ask them to bid on a fleet of 1!

The best deal is (as Sandy suggested): the car you like, with the equipment, color and options you want, at a price you can afford from a Dealership and a Sales Consultant you can like, trust and count on to be there for this and many other purchases. Simple. Play fair with your dealer, build rapport, stop the "he said he'll do", "match this", "my trade that", "bid this" and you'll get the same in return from your Dealer, I promise; and if not, you should do business elsewhere. Cars are a relationship business.

10-29-04, 05:34 PM
I don't really expect to buy a Cadillac at $100 over invoice, but if I can that would be great.

We have a dealer here that sells Chevys for $98 over invoice. They are the best. Will even search for the lowest interest rate.
In 2000 they sold 1200 trucks and 70 cars.
They are about a 15 mile drive out of town.

I would expect the local dealer to be about $300 more but they are about $900 to 1100 more and use every trick in the book to nail you.
Made up invoice.
Won't tell you the interest rate, $249 dealer BS fee, etc. etc.
I don't do business with them anymore, even though my salesman has been there so long he sold cars to my granparents.

10-29-04, 07:41 PM
They ain't doing very good at 70 new for the year! That's 6 cars a month, for the whole place?? I averaged 20 a month, myself, selling DODGE, and let me tell ya, one has to SELL dodge!! Chevys are much easier to sell. If they were doing as good as you think they are, THAT salesman would be looooong retired!!!!! 3 generations of the same family & he's still doing 12 hour days :tisk:
Saturns are thebest! People (most) dislike the barganing hassle. With Saturn the salesperson SELLS the car, not the PRICE :thumbsup:
Therefore that benefits the consumer. Everybody wins because the car grosses a $3,000 profit EVERY TIME !! Saturn Salespeople are the happiest! No hassle and a $3,000 (minimum) gross with every sale! What could be better??????? and no :want: with the customer, makes all the customer :D

10-29-04, 11:22 PM
Hello everyone! I work at one of the top-selling Cadillac dealers in the nation (right in Farmingdale, LI). We are a VERY reputable, family-oriented dealer that practices fair and honest business. I would just like to say that I am all for consumer rights. I understand that competition is economically beneficial for the consumer. But I DO believe that the car-selling business has evolved into a cold and cutthroat business over the years.
On Long Island and New York City, there are 17 Cadillac dealers, some high volume ones, some low volume ones. A select few of these "houses" have given Cadillac a BAD NAME, in the way that they conduct business. From "low-balling" ads to unprofessional business antics, I believe they should be closed down, to be blunt. Now, this will probably never happen. Unfortunately, this type of conduct negatively affects good and just dealers such as Sarant Cadillac.
I believe a fair and honest hard-working salesman deserves to make a fair profit on a high-ticket item. It seems that everyone is literally "giving away" cars nowadays for invoice, $100 over invoice, below invoice, etc. Fine for the consumer, but what about that salesman that puts in 50-60 hours a week and has to raise a family and pay the bills. I mean, I don't want to go off on a rant here, but...
to be continued.......

10-30-04, 01:36 AM
I Agree.

10-30-04, 10:33 AM
Sandy, 70 cars that year and 1200 trucks and SUVs!

Another thing that they did to earn my business was that there
was "$1,000 Dealer Cashback" that was posted on the windshield in big letters.
The other dealer made no mention of it.


If I am paying $500-900 over invoice for a Cadillac I would expect to get that dealer cashback.

And I am going to search the net to find out if there are any "Instant Value Certificates" and ask for those too.

10-30-04, 04:51 PM
I went to their web site that you provided (thanks)!
THAT is some place !! I overlooked the trucks in error. They are ALL ABOUT TRUCKS! They are lucky. I knew of (long ago - 1968/69) a Dodge dealership that all but gave up on the cars, and did what this Chevy dealer is doing, but with Dodge Trucks. Chrysler Corp. threatened to pull their franachise!! In the end, they sold the land off & a Rite Aid Pharmacy was built on it along with a Gold's Gym. I see that they have 1 Monte Carko & 1 Corvette. Would they sell an ordered 'Vette for $98.00 over? Ummmm, I could be a customer. I have to go back & see where they are located. I forgot to take notice, as I spent alot of time looking at that inventory. Truck buyers must come from OTHER states, to buy from inventory there! I'm going back to see where they be! :p

South Carolina !! Well...a little too far from Northern New Jersey ...
We once had a guy who bought his Dodge from Reedman in Pa. (Same kinda deal) and he lived 1 block from the Dodge Dealer I worked for. Of course he brought it into us for service, and of course after spending like 2 hours "shopping" for his car in our place, he went to Reedman, and saved himself $322.00. So, by franchise laws, we COULD NOT decine him warrantee service, but but but we did not decline him sevice, but always told him that were were jammed up with OUR OWN SOLD cars and offerred him an appointment in a month! (He could not then complain to Chry Corp) that we REFUSED him! Soon, he bagan going to other Ddoge stores in the area, just a little further away from him, than we were. (We were his closest). One by One each of the others did the same, a month away appointemnts ('ya know - like a Doctor's office). Finally it musta dawned upon him, and 3 years later we sold him a new 1990 Ram Pickup. (Funny, he didn't argue price very much that time. The first time he came in, his attitude was akin to a pit bull. The 2nd time, when he actually became a buyer, he was more akin to a sheep). Funny thing was.....with his new Pick Up our service appointments changed to "you can drop it off now, and we'll drive you home, and if we can get to it today, we will, otherwise figure on picking it up before 2PM tomorrow.
` and If you need a ride over here, just call & we'll come & get you"
Everyone was happy.

10-31-04, 08:39 AM
Who says invoice price is the price dealers pay.
I was working in a window place and saw a invoice for a supplier
It had invoice price then they got a 50% discount.
It think invoice price is a thing the marketing people made up so they can you people this is what we were invoiced for the car but did not show finially paid price by the dealership.
Around here there are 4 GM dealship but only 60,000 people.
They go out their way to do service work on any car not just cars they sell.
For my truck, for oil; changes I have taken to all the dealers depend on sales for oil changes, the caddy only goes to caddy dealer.

10-31-04, 12:19 PM
On cars, the INVOICE is the real-deal. It comes from the car's manufacturer, and it BETTER be the real-deal!! If a salesperson shows you the invoice, and it says "INVOICE" on it, A*N*D it IS from the car's mfgr. it's the truth! However, as you know, there is Holdback (generaly 3%) of list price. However, the dealer has to wait a year for it. It's paid a year later, and the salesperson doen't get 1 cent of it !

Yes, we also took "Cash" work in on cars sold from other dealers. We also did warrantee work on cars sold from other dealers, but when a person spends 2 hours shopping us, and then would go to another dealer & buy it (especially one 2 hours away) then we gave him/her a month away appointment. Our nearby competitors did the same. Take it back where ya bought it, guy. Their better than we are.

10-31-04, 06:24 PM
I think the invoice that edmunds and kbb shows never has all of the other dealer's fees included.
When I was researching my SRX purchase the invoice was 37,221 which I verified with 3 Cadillac dealers.
The kbb/edmunds invoice was down into the 36s.
It messed up my whole negotiating. But I got some Instant Value Certificates so it came out to what I wanted.

Also you guys have said that your service departments are not anxious
to service cars sold by other dealers.
The dealer that I used to buy from is Rick Hendrick(yes, that Rick Hendrick).
They have such high overhead that they will service anybody's car.
They need the business.

10-31-04, 08:28 PM
Hello again, everyone!
Today I had a customer who was interested in an STS with the 1SF package. After pricing him out at $500 over invoice price, he then told me "I want to pay BELOW invoice...". I thought he was joking. He wasn't laughing. DEALER'S INVOICE PRICE IS the actual price a dealer pays for a vehicle, minus a HOLDBACK, usually 3% of MSRP. Holdback is a per unit credit paid back to the dealer by the manufacturer (check me on this, SANDY). Car dealers pay hundreds of dollars in interest on cars that lay on their lots. This gives them the incentive to be more aggressive on in-stock vehicles as supposed to trading with another dealer or even, in some cases, factory-ordering vehicles.
Now, DEALER HOLDBACK is a profit that most salespeople NEVER see. In fact, where I work, we get paid only on profits $300 over invoice only. This is called a "PACK". I'm sure lots of other dealers have this as well. Most dealers, especially in my area, also "charge" ADVERTISING fees. This fee, usually 1-2% of the MSRP before destination is factored in, is included in their invoice price. This is because some dealerships pay tens of thousands of dollars each month in advertising. Then the other dealers, some of which don't even advertise that often, including my own, pay up to $1,500 per unit.
I believe this is a very UNFAIR fee and serves as a disadvantage to most dealers. Advertising fees are thought to benefit the smaller dealers, who don't or can't afford to pay for advertising.
So, with exception to DEALER CASH or factory-to-dealer incentives, which I think consumers are entitled to, DEALER HOLDBACK is an integral part of the everyday dealer-consumer transaction that ALL DEALERS are entitled to. HOLDBACK is what pays our bills and keeps our light on, PERIOD.
Anything you want to add, SANDY? How about you, MISCREANT?

10-31-04, 09:13 PM
Pack, $300.00 ? Excuse my French, but I'd tell them to go to hell, WITH their $300 pack. WHO do they think they are? First salespeople do not participate in the holdback. Then they slap a PACK on us! Now, I can understand PACK on used vehicles {"use-dees"} as, okay, you make a $2,000 profit and give a 100% warrantee for XX number of months, and they return to fix dis & dat, okay it eats away the intial profit. So, the pack evens out the salesperson's end of it, just as the dealer has give-backs, but with 4 year 60,000 mile factory warrantee, WTF is a $300 pack for on brandy new stuff all about ??
When I sold Dodges back in another lifetime :yup: we sold them all day long at $300.00 over dead dead invoice. No pack on new & $200.00 on use dees.

(Man, I'm like pissed FOR you) That's just plain W R O N G ! :lildevil: :lildevil: :lildevil: :lildevil: :lildevil: :lildevil:

60 special
11-01-04, 09:13 AM
For many dealers, new cars sales are one of the lowest if not the lowest profitable department in their dealerships. If it weren't for service, parts and used car sales many dealers wouldn't even be in business.

Why is it wrong for a dealer to attempt to make a profit on a vehicle he sells? Also for all of those out there that think they are entitled to buy a car for what the dealer has in it plus a few hundred dollars more, where are you going to buy your next car when the dealer goes out of business? Don't you want the dealer you purchased your vehicle from to be financially healthy so he is there for service and the next time you need to buy a car?

11-01-04, 09:49 AM
Wow,60 Special, you don't mentally follow the masses! You are 110% correct. We salesmen often entertain ourselves on cold snowy winter nights laughing how it would be if people bought a sofa at a large department store, using the stuff they do a the car dealership.

Hi, we're looking to buy a sofa, hopefully a dark green one
Salesman: I have several over here, come with me.

Oh, this ones' nice, how much is it?
Salesman: This one's normally $3,000 - but it's on sale for $2,700 this month.

We like it. I'll give you $1,375 for it.
Salesman: Oh, I'm sorry but the price is $2,700. We could never sell this sofa for $1,375.

Customer walks away mumbling: "thief" "con artist"

Comes back in a day or two and antes up the $$ and pays the $2,700.
5 months later trhe dark green sofa begins to prematurely fade & lose color.
What does car-buyer / sofa buyer do ??

Why of course, call a competitor to the store he bought it at, to come & fix it!!! :D :D

(Well, a little exagorated, perhaps .... but ya get the point).

60 special
11-01-04, 04:54 PM
Wow,60 Special, you don't mentally follow the masses! You are 110% correct. We salesmen often entertain ourselves on cold snowy winter nights laughing how it would be if people bought a sofa at a large department store, using the stuff they do a the car dealership.

Hi, we're looking to buy a sofa, hopefully a dark green one
Salesman: I have several over here, come with me.

Oh, this ones' nice, how much is it?
Salesman: This one's normally $3,000 - but it's on sale for $2,700 this month.

We like it. I'll give you $1,375 for it.
Salesman: Oh, I'm sorry but the price is $2,700. We could never sell this sofa for $1,375.

Customer walks away mumbling: "thief" "con artist"

Comes back in a day or two and antes up the $$ and pays the $2,700.
5 months later trhe dark green sofa begins to prematurely fade & lose color.
What does car-buyer / sofa buyer do ??

Why of course, call a competitor to the store he bought it at, to come & fix it!!! :D :D

(Well, a little exagorated, perhaps .... but ya get the point).

No, you are right on the money! Since when is it wrong to make a profit and have a healthy and steady business?

Have any of these people posting all these negative comments about dealers ever bought a house? If you want to talk about a racket, the mortgage company charges the buyer for sending the paperwork over to the closing attorney! Then when you add up all the misc. charges it is usually $500 to $600 more than you were quoted. But they have you now because you've commited to buy the house so you just pay it and get it over with. And they smile all the while they are doing this to you.

11-01-04, 05:18 PM
I think we might be stepping over the line here with some of these comments.

The auto industry and probably the mobile home industry(sorry, manufactured housing) has kind of brought it on themselves.

I know you guys probably don't feel the need to defend yourselves,
but whenever I hear of some kid getting wacked for $9-12K by a new car dealer I don't have sympathy for about 70% of dealers in the business.

When I go to an appliance store to buy a refrigerator, I know that I will have the cost of the refrigerator, the delivery charge and i will be offered a
extended warranty.

The chances that my downpayment will disappear(be stolen) and that I
will be hit for a higher interest rate, even though I have a good credit score, is just about zero.

We just had a dealer here in Charleston(Gene Reed Toyota) that settled a class action lawsuit because they were accused of stealing people's downpayments.
The story is that the same dealer(his Chevy store) nailed so many sailors that the Navy told them not to step on the property for a period of time.
One of my clients told me about a sailor that went to go buy a used car from them.
They told him because he didn't have very much credit, they needed to adjust the price. They took his trade-in(worth about 4K), added 2K to the already inflated asking price of the used car. Then hit him with a 16+% interest rate(don't remember the rate since this was in the early 90s.)
They saw him coming a mile down the road. My client, a warrant officer, tried to help him but they wouldn't budge.
The worst part of the story is that the kid went back and bought another car from them 2 years later.



11-01-04, 05:21 PM
Better than frowning...... No?
Real Estate sales people have as many, if not more "tricks" than car dealers. Ever hear about "Bouncing"
That's when you are very interested in "house "A" ~ but you think that it's a bit overpriced at $300,000 So, they take you to see a very similiar house to the one you like. If you have issues with "House B" and they can see you don't want to consider it, they tell you the house B is going for $389,000, making the house you ARE interested in look like a darn steal!
Then they have a little trick calling turning up the heat. This when they feel it's time for you to make an offer, and you haven't done so. They tell you another agent has a buyer that is going to submit an offer on that house on Jones Street that you liked :) .... so don't lose it ! :helpless:

11-01-04, 05:29 PM
I've truly enjoyed reading all the different perspectives on buying a new Caddy. The folks "In The Biz" generally seem to believe that the car buying public are "obligated" to provide a "fair profit" (Whatever that is) to the dealer, and almost always end with "Where are you gonna buy your next new car when XYZ is no longer in business?".

Well, in general, that's not my problem. As the consumer - and a decidedly PRO-AMERICAN consumer at that - It's not my concern how much (or little) profit the dealership makes or whether or not they're there in a year, a month or a week. Those issues are the province of the fella who has his name over the front door - like the Sewell Family in Dallas, et al.

I DO, however, understand the plight of the salespeople. Just like any other retail venture, it's the "folks with the faces on the floor" who get the biggest screwing. The people who own the joint do pretty well - they have more ways of making a buck than Carter has Little Liver Pills. The people actually peddling the merchandise aren't quite so well positioned.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like me who walk in to a dealership with a specific deal already in mind. The internet has been the best thing ever for the buying public, but the absolute worst for the sales staff. Of course, there are bound to be as many unprepared nitwits as there are folks who know how much each deal is worth.

The sales manager at Sewell on Lemmon Ave in Dallas says that the new car department is not their primary reason to be in business. The resale, service and accessories parts of the company consistently out-earn new car sales year over year.

I'm not trying to take food out of the salesman's (salesperson's) mouth and don't begrudge them from earning a living. However, I'm certainly not responsible for supporting anyone other than my wife and kids.....and no one is making MY job any easier. No excuses, just reality.

You guys are offering a lot of valid and interesting perspectives on a poorly understood industry - and I'm really thankful for all the insights!

Regards, John.

11-01-04, 05:40 PM

I sort of agree with you, but the longterm for me is that they will be there
to service my vehicle and sell me another one.
If I happen to be looking for a car and they are throwing all kinds of incentives and discounts at it, I will buy it, butI want a fair deal
and to know that I am building a relationship with somebody.
Because the service departments will give you breaks from time to time if you are a good customer.
I got half of a transmission rebuild paid for by Chevy on a car with 50,000 miles on it in January.

11-01-04, 05:56 PM
"" The worst part of the story is that the kid went back and bought another car from them 2 years later. ""

'Ya know, I gotta add a comment to that. This is absolute truth, but I do not have the answer as to W-H-Y !! ......

The customers that I gave very good deals to (good for the customer-Bad for me) thought that I really worked them over, took unfair advange of them, screwed them good, and they never bought again from us. I am talking about a deal where we sold the car for absolute dead dead invoice, paid them $100.00 over book for the trade, hammered their ShAkEy credit thru and went to the dealer who had the car and swapped one of ours for it, on ONLY holdback - or sometimes even $100.00 or so INTO holdback thought were were EVIL.

The customers that we laid down on hot coals, sold for $200 off of list, stole the trade and finanaced at 23% APR (1996), and talked them into the black one when they really wanted a red one, were our best customers and came back and brought OTHER family members, and sold the cars for us by their great reccomendation of us!

I recall once asking a 50-ish married guy after delivery how much money he thought we made on him. (This because we actually lost $300.00 - it was a left over car, 6 months into the new year, and had been a DEMO.
He said "about $8,000"

60 special
11-02-04, 08:38 AM
Go to any of the "Big Box" stores, electronics, appliances or nationwide jewlery stores and you will find that if you buy a cordless telephone for $9.95 they will try to sell you an extended warranty for $19.95! Of course for the first year you get an on the spot replacement unit and for the next year you get your phone repaired. Such a deal! Now on big ticket items they really put the close on you. The profits made on these extended warranties are obscene, but the majority of people buy them on reasonable purchases that they are concerned, "sold", about the product failing. They ask you, on such a large purchase, don't you want to protect it? What does that say about the quality of the product? They have just finished selling you on how great a TV or washer is and how highly rated it is, but you should buy the warranty. when you get to the checout and the clerk has seen you have not bought the warranty, they take another shot at you. The salespeople make their major commissions on the warranties. Every industry has poor examples of businessmen that give it a bad name. But why are car dealers still in the public's mind the worst?

11-02-04, 09:10 AM
Is part of the problem that you always hear from the other saleman ( the one you did buy the car from) I could gave a better deal!
I hear this all the time when I am getting trucks. Chevy and GMC are the same truck, different front but really the rest is the same. After I am give what beliave is a fair deal the other guy always says I could have done better.
So next time you are out shopping in the back of your mind the little person in your mind is saying they can do better.

11-02-04, 08:44 PM
60 special,

I see your point, but if you go to bestbuy to purchase a 34" Sony HDTV it will have a price of $2499.
You, as the buyer have no way to know that that is the MSRP.
You then go to circuitcity and the price is the same, $2499.
In your mind you are thinking that is a fair price because it is a big box retailer and they MUST be cheaper than your mom and pop retailer.

There is no Munroney sticker.

The invoice of the Tv is probably around $1750. Or 30% off retail.
(Video's markup of 30% is less than audio's, which is typically 50%).
Not a lot of margin in video.

The interesting part of the story is that the mom and pop could have beat that deal.

The mom and pop can go to Sony's book which posts "low book". This is the lowest number that Sony will allow the big box stores to sell for.
The big box guys typically charge MSRP unless it is a real sale!
Then they go for the extended warranty which has some value on rear projection TV's, but not on anything else.

Next time you go to bestbuy, go to tweeter, then circuit city and I will guarantee you the prices are pretty much the same.

Thankfully the auto business does not have that much "collusion."

To clarify:
A receiver or speakers with a $100 invoice would retail at $200.
A TV or dvd player with a $100 invoice would retail for about $160.

11-02-04, 11:30 PM
Hello, guys!
Let's compare the markups between big-ticket items such as automobiles and smaller ticket items such as TV's.
A wide-screen TV that has a retail price of $2000, for example, would have a wholesale cost (invoice) for around $1200. That's about 40% markup.
Now, an automobile with an MSRP of $50000, for example, would have a wholesale cost (invoice) of about $46,000. That's around 8% markup.
Other small-ticket items such as clothing have around 50% markup.
Car stereo receivers have around 30-40% markup.
If you purchase a $50000 car, such as a Cadillac STS, for $500 over invoice, then the dealer has made a ONE PERCENT profit on you. If you want to count holdback, then the dealer made a FOUR PERCENT profit on you.
The automobile industry is the ONLY industry which the consumers know the exact wholesale costs of it's products.
So WHY IS IT when a fair and honest salesperson (such as myself) gives a price of $500 over invoice on a $50000 STS, the buyer doesn't think it's a good deal? Has NOTHING to do with the internet. It's because of the DEALERS. So many dealers are literally "giving away" vehicles in fear of losing sales to the one down the block. The consumers have been "trained" to ask for invoice or even much less. I have no problem selling cars for invoice--if a customer comes in an says "Give me invoice price and I'll take it now..", I'll obviously do it, no questions asked. But I am just sick and tired of being told that I am much higher than the other guy at $500 over invoice or less.
I am not one for lowballing or misleading or deceiving, but can someone please tell me what I have to do to make a fair profit?
Anything you'd like to add, SANDY.
MISCREANT, where are you???


11-03-04, 02:13 AM
The only thing I could add, is that I would NEVER sell a car at Invoice, or even $200.00 over invoice. I got out of car sales in 1996. I assume there have been some (a few???) changes since then????? When I left, we were paid 20% commission of the profit in the deal, OVER a $100.00 "Pack" (another name for armed robbery of the sales force, BTW.) So, that would make my $200.00 deal, a $100.00 deal times 20% or a commission of Twenty Bucks! I sure as hell am not gonna live with a customer's problems, questions, etc, etc for the 4-7 years he owns the car on a $20.00 commission ($14.75 after taxes)!! No Way! The next dealer can have him! Who gets hurt? Not me! My dealer gets hurt. HE loses service customer, he loses holdback. If I could not make fifty bucks on a $20,000 gross sale, hell I'd go sell shoes for a flat $375.00 a week with NO hassles!! (and ya don't have to sell undercoating on shoes!)
< Guess maybe that's why I had more than enough and got out after 27 years of "What do i have to TODAY to sell you this car? stuff >
I found the nicest people going, turned into miserable tyrants walking thru the showrooms doors .... AND 55 hours a week of it?
Ever notice 90% of all car salesmen's wifes have really good jobs? One guy I knew (car salesman) made up T-Shirts & sold them to OTHER car salesmen! They said "I CAN SELL CARS" on the front - and "BECAUSE MY WIFE HAS A GOOD JOB" on the back ! It was funny.

The pay plan of car salesman hails from the fifties. It's only 50 years behind the times, that's all.

11-03-04, 06:42 AM
The buyer offers invoice because they figure there is other money that
the dealer is getting that they don't know about.
If the car is bought at invoice and there is $1K dealer cashback or 1-4 $500
"Instant Value Certificates" available tht is not offered to him then he feels he can live with that.
I I buy the car and pay $500 over invoice and get all the applicable incentives, including conquest cash or maybe loyalty bonus then I would be extremely happy with my purchase.
Not just happy with the car, but the whole process.

The other thing we haven't touched on is the HUGE Incentives that are being thrown at the Deville, Escalade and leftover Sevilles.
$12K in total discounts are posted on the windshields at my dealer.
I have seen some dealers advertise 14K off.
I have even seen 10K-12K off on '04 SRX V8's! :bonkers:

You can't hardly blame a Cadillac buyer for trying to lowball the dealer.
Plus the depreciation is heinous.
Something that is not a issue with a Lexus, etc.

11-03-04, 06:52 AM
Also I think the offer/invoice price would be less of an issue if there was more perceived value there.

GM has financed these incentives with MSRPs that have nothing to do with the real world.

Between '00 and '04 the Impala went up $1K per year.
The Lexus LS 400/430 went up $500 per year.

I think GM needs to enact some kind of transactional pricing structure.

If the SRX was $37,500 instead of $39,035 it may not need ANY incentives.
Or if the Luxury package was standard at 39K, it might help sales too.
Or if the the STS topped out at $58K instead of 63K.
Or if the price was $40,995 with the Lux package instead of 43K.

A $70,345 ESV Platinum is just plain obscene and NOBODY pays that.

The CTS seems to be the only Cadillac that is even closely priced properly, although we have seen some price increases lately.
The CTS has had the fewest amount of incentives is the best seller and it continues to break sales records.

11-05-04, 09:42 PM
In tonite paper , from a dealer who is in top 10 in Canada, #2 in truck sales ,a 2004 Denali fully load MSRP-$68,435 Cash Price $49,990
2004 GP GTP Comp MSRP$42,155 Cash price $29,990
2004 Envoy XUV MSRP $46,880 Cash price $34,990
These are CDN price.
They can sell a Denali for almost $20,000 less then MSRP and still make money.
I would think that there is not $20,000 difference between Mrsp and invoice

The local Caddy dealer add CDN Prices
2005 STS Demo-MSRP $62,939 3.6L sunroof cash price $57,190
2004CTS MSRP$47,380 Cash Price $44,899
2004 Deville DEMO MRSP$60,625 Cash price $48,988
2004 Deville Demo MRSP$60,625 Cash Price $52,033

60 special
11-10-04, 08:39 AM
Wait to buy your DeVille or Escalade in December. All of the big three now have the largest on ground inventory they have had in ten years. So the discounts and rebates will be even higher.

As to many people's comments about rebates and discounts from the manufacturer, remember Chrysler with the "buy a car get a check" when Chrysler started to come back from the dead? Before then cars were priced more moderately between invoice and sticker and did not have the ridiculous amount of markup they have today. However, once the rebates and discounts started the public had to have them. Everyone has to brag to their neighbors that they got $8,000.00 off their new car. What a great negotiator that guy must be. But the $8,000.00 dollars was already built into the sticker price of the car!

Once the public got hooked on phony discounts and rebates, rational pricing went out the window. I like to say that rebates are like drugs. We started out 20 years ago on pot and now we are up to cocaine. Where does it go from here?

One thing everyone has to remember in any business is supply and demand. When the demand exceeds the supply the prices are higher. When the supply exceeds the demand, prices fall. Unless you have to be the first on the block to have anything new, wait a year and save yourself a good amount of money. STS's prices will drop by next summer due to discounting by the dealers. The same will happen to the Chrysler 300c.

11-10-04, 02:44 PM
There was a dealership advertising that was offering to sell you a 2004 Corvette at MSRLP and you got a "free" Chevy Aveo (actually a Daewoo). Drive the Vette weather permitting and the Aveo in inclement weather, the ads read (NOT a bad idea, BTW ;)

11-24-04, 08:29 AM
Can someone explain what a "Holdback" is as it relates to Dealer invoice. I have read that the holdback is generally 3% of invoice and the dealer receives this from the factory for a specific car. My STS 1SG is due to arrive next week and I will be negotiating with the dealer on its price.

11-24-04, 09:52 AM
The Corporation, (Honda of America, Daimler-Chrysler, GM, Ford, VW of America, etc, etc, etc, .... ALL except AUDI) pay the dealership anywhere between 2 & 3 & 1/2 percent of a car's invoice (minus Destination Charge) on each new car sold. However, the dealer does not receive this money until September. So, the car sold in October does not earn this Holdback for 11 months, whereas a car sold in August nets it in 30 days.
This money is "holy money" and you cannot even hope to get $20.00 of it. Forget about it. #1. The salesperson will lose his job if he even mentions or negeoates it. #2. Ditto the Sales Manager & General Manager. If you really want to talk holdback, you'd better speak directly to the dealer principle. Unless he has his name on the building, such as Bill Smith Plymouth, you'll have no idea who this person is, anyhow.
On a 05 STS "G" Pkg you'll be paying at least a $1,200 profit over actual invoice. The salesman will earn $200.00 or point three (.3) percent of the sticker price, the dealership will make $1,200.00 or 1.8 % of the sticker price and next September, 9 months away, they will get another $2,000.
If you finance thru them, they will make money on that - but so will any credit union or financial institution. You'll probably do better thru the dealer **IF** they are offering 0 percent or 1 or 2 or 3 percent fianancing. Next up the ladder would be a credit union.
If you have allready written a deal (sales contract) you have nothing more to neogate! It's all done ! If you want outta the deal, that depends on the profit in it! If a crappy deal for the dealer, they might refund your D/P ~ If it's a good deal for the dealer (crappy 4 U) you can 4-get about any refund, without seeking an attorney and a court case.

Seriously, and not to sound "smart" I'd suggest that you take the car, and enjoy it, and don't worry about the 1,2 or 3 percent profit you paid! Trust me, your Wal Mart made much more on you, as did your electrician that came to your house! My wife called the repair company for our dryer that stopped spinning around. He came, he looked, and told her the motor was shot and it didn't pay to buy a new one. Fee? $100.00. The salesman sold you a car for nearly a $66,000 window sticker. The salesman made $200.00. The dryer guy was at the house 10 minutes. How long did your salesman spend with you ?? See ? Enjoy the donut, don't worry about the hole! Safe driving & enjoy the car, & park far far far away to prevent the heartache of door dings. Set the alarm, and use a brake club ("AutoLock Brake Club").

11-24-04, 10:34 AM
Take a look at this dealership ad on Ebay:


Use their price as a bargaining point at your local dealers!

Good luck,


60 special
11-24-04, 11:36 AM
Why would anyone look at ebay for the price of a new car? Dealers put these cars on ebay to get a 'feel" for what the true market value is of a car, especially when its new and rare. Ford is very disappointed with what is showing up on prices for the new Mustang. They are generally coming in at sticker or a few hundred below. As with the STS the car is completely new and Ford was hoping to see a $1,000 or more over sticker on ebay.

As far as the $5,000.00 off any STS, forget it. By the time you get through with ADM (Additional Dealer Markup) and AMV (Adjusted Market Value) and everything else thrown in, the $5,000.00 quickly becomes $2,000.00 or less.

The days of Cadillacs having 15 to 20% markup left the building more than 20 years ago. Competiton has driven the markup levels to less than 10% for many manufacturers.

Again, why does every other business you deal with entitled to make a profit and a dealer can't?

11-24-04, 12:31 PM
Because there is a certain element of dealers out there ON THE HIGHWAY, that live off lies & deceit. As you can see, from the preceeding adveretisment on e-bay, all you have to do is to go to MSN Autos and price out a "G" STS and add the options, and then look at the MSRLP and the INVOICE and subtract to see the differance, and it's NOT $5,000. But these "Highway Whores" live on feeding the consumer WHAT the consumer WANTS to hear up until they get the consumer's $$$$. Then the whole ballgame changes and that's about the time the consumer starts to howl like a wounded hound dog. Too late... OWNED! Then, they work back UP to the honest price that the honest dealer wanted down the road, that the buyer said was "Crazy" and trotted off to the Highway Whore, whose now gonna put the foolish buyer thru the old wringer washing machine.

Go to the delaer that DOESN'T advertise in the newspaper!! THAT'S the Honest one, that small(er) place in that older low rent in-town building, rather than that 2,000 car inventory dealer with 1 mile frontage on prime real estate on the highway, with 27 salesmen, 11 managers (lucky you, you'll get to meet them all) and no owner! Right! No owner! 20 investor owners from all across the state and the next state! Every month the bottom 10 salesmen get fired and 10 new arms & legs are hired, and promissed incomes of $90,000 a year (one too many zeros!!)

(Unless you are going to SATURN, in which case you'll be treated like English Royality).

11-24-04, 12:48 PM
Okay. I just priced it out. A brand new "G" package STS with NO OTHER OPTIONS - - meaning
Adaptive Cruise Control
Handling Package
All Wheel Drive
No Red or White exterior paint color

Has $5,600.00 in it from invoice to window sticker. Therefore, I'd say it is possible to get $4,600.00 off window sticker - ON an ORDERED CAR -
if if if if if if if if said dealer has ALOTMENT to order a car, and depending upon his alotment and if he is in a HOT market for these cars and his alotment is low, forget it!! He needs to be in a soft market for these cars with a higher alotment. Supply & demand.

11-24-04, 12:49 PM
I am not following your line of reasoning!!!

Are you saying that the dealers on Ebay are mostly a fraud?


11-24-04, 01:18 PM
Fraud? No, I didn't use that word. More like only telling 80% truth. They will add to the window sticker:

Market Adjustment Value $___________
Dealer Installed:-
Pin Stripe
Custom Floor Mats
Gold Ornamentation Package
Simulated Convertible Roof
Vogue Whitewalls & Chromed Wheels
to UP the LIST price to achieve a discount of $____(as advertised)

That e-bay dealer says $5,000 off any & all STS in stock. He might have 2 in stock ! He might give $5,000 off providing there's a trade that he feels he can make $$$ on - IF IF IF he can steal it. So, when he offers YOU $1,000 BELOW wholesale for your trade, you anin't gonna do the deal......
he'll hold out for the guy who is financing with the dealer like $40,000 for 5 years at 14% & THAT guy WILL get the $5,000 off.

There are many avenues to make up lost INITIAL needed profit. If that dealer is gonna make $600 profit on a $60,000 car there's some other trick that's gonna appear somewhere along the line. There are so many, I can't possibly list them all here.

OR, it might even be legit! Maybe in that area, the sTS is stiff or monied buyers are few & far between, and maybe the guy has a half dozen sitting around shoved down his throat by his firendly zone manager, and dealer wants to bail out, & put the $$$$ into easier to sell CTS 6 Cyl base cars.
Hard to 2nd quess what's inside his head.

11-24-04, 05:45 PM

First thing is the problem with consumers is that they think that they have us (the dealer) all figured out, and know what the true price is. ..

YOU DONT!!! Sandy as much as you think that the formula you have will work, follow me. . . it does not work on all cars, especially in my case I work at a dealership where we have one advertising and all around me is mostly 2 advertisings. You ask what is advertising have to do with invoice? Well as a general note my invoice prices are about 500 dollars cheaper than my closest compeditor. So I am always amazed when people try and go by what the internet says.The internet give you a ruff estimate, and yes its true some dealer put undercoating on and try to charge extra to make more, in that case don't do it or VIN etching or special tires you can read the window sticker and make your own judgment about what looks foolish. . .

Siir your best way to get a good deal is to use GM Buypower and write a couple E-mail out to different dealers and see who gives the best price, also keep in mind that they will hold on to that E-mail and when the time comes and you need a sale to make 50 in a month or whatever that dealership is trying to hit monthly they will remember you, also your best deal will always be on a car in stock due to the fact that the dealer is paying for that car the minute they get a vin number on it, so look for something that has low milage and a lil older, also if you lease take whatever you can get your hands on cause you can start the odometer on a lease as high as 500 miles, and its covered under warrenty so what does it matter if there is milage on it? It really isnt yours, nore do you want it after 2,3, or 4 year if you did you wouldn't lease it? right?

Dealers will ALWAYS try to get you to buy inventory so that is where the best price is, also ask to see if the salesperson is salary or commision. . .
if its salary then you are argueing with the wrong person, you need to take to the manager, they are the ones behind the numbers not the salesman and if it is commision a true salesmen will alway take a deal rather then loose the sale over a couple bucks and the only thing that kills you is when you act like you wanna barter over price, the easiest sales are the ones that let me be upfront and i give one good price and then close. . and if I dont close then my price is so good they could shop it around and they always come back. . . :thumbsup: the key is to find a good salesperson.
The best deals are the ones the can turnover right away because once your in they dont want to loose you to someone else, so go in with a fixed price in you mind and then show willingness to pull the triger.
Or be really frank and ask to see the invoice book or the invoice on the car and say I'll do it for 500 over that number or 1000. . . I would start with 500 and expect to do it for at the most 800. end of the month is a good time as well. . .Saturdays are good, but weekday night are excellant. . MONDAY!!
and I think I am doing a good job because I am on track to be a Mark of Exellance salesman in my first year and well as averaging over 7 a month. . .
Whoever want to buy invoice from me can E-mail me, I'll do it for my CadillacOwners.com buddies. . .<---- like a true salesman always looking. . .

11-25-04, 09:55 AM
Can one of the dealers explain this to me:
I took delivery of a 2005 STS on September 1. It was a factory order and I paid dealer invoice. This invoice included the following in the "Pay 310" line:

"ADV 261 488.95" and
"EXP 65A 611.19"

I paid these as part of the invoice price, but what are they?
Aren't these amounts high?
Are you saying that these amounts vary by dealer?

11-25-04, 04:40 PM
ADV261 is for Corporate assessed, dealer paid advertising fee ($489)
The EXP 65! I have NO idea!! THAT one I'd question !!!!!!!!

11-29-04, 09:29 AM
The other is also an advertising charge. It is for local market advertising done by the factory in a specific market. The 65A is for national advertising charges.

11-29-04, 01:07 PM
So the advertising charge from the factory on just one 2005 STS is about $1,100- !!

11-30-04, 04:51 PM
Depending on the dealer's market area, yes.