: N* To pull or not to pull, A/C is the question.



83CADMAN
08-22-11, 01:00 PM
Iíve decided to pull the N* out the top of my 94 Concourse. My shop, equipment and wallet are what really force the choice. I do have a FSM and have thoroughly read the sections on removal. It seams the alternate procedure (out the top) is less intimidating. Yes I know all you diehards recommend dropping the cradle and I agree with you, butÖon to my question.
To anyone that has pulled rather than drop.

My FSM says to evacuate the A/C system and remove the section of A/C line between the accumulator & the evaporator. Also it says to unbolt the compressor from the engine. There is no mention of removal of the compressor so Iím presuming that it stays with the car.
So, the question is; Can you gently sneak the engine past the A/C piping that connects the accumulator & the evaporator without removing it?

I sure would like to know if itís possible before starting. I do not want to open the A/C system if I donít have to. Thatís money that can go to Jake for a set of studs.

Thanks for any and all advice

vincentm
08-22-11, 01:42 PM
When i attempted mine through the top, i removed the AC Compressor. I'd recommend doing so to prevent any sort of damage that may occur.

83CADMAN
08-22-11, 03:59 PM
When i attempted mine through the top, i removed the AC Compressor. I'd recommend doing so to prevent any sort of damage that may occur.
Attempted?
Were you successful pulling the engine?
If so;
Could the compressor just have be tied off to the side and remained in the engine bay?
How much clearance is required on the passengerís side at the strut tower to allow the engine to move far enough for the flywheel to clear the trans bell housing?
I measured 2 Ĺ inches clear between the passengerís side strut tower and the rearward cam cover.
Clearly the A/C line will eat at least 1 inch right against the strut tower. Perhaps another inch for the flywheel to clear, thatís 2 inches. Seams to me that leaves Ĺ inch of wiggle room.
Anybody tried it?

98eldo32v
08-22-11, 04:00 PM
I have removed a northstar out of a seville through the top.

I suggest removing the a/c compressor, a/c condenser, radiator and harmonic balancer. The rest is straight forward.

Just make sure the braces that attach the transmission the the motor on the right side of the vehicle are loosened. There is a brace that runs from the rear head near the valve cover to the bottom of the motor/trans that needs to be unbolted also.

Good luck with it.

vincentm
08-22-11, 04:13 PM
Attempted?
Were you successful pulling the engine?



I got as far as the step before the y-pipe removal in which i got stuck and intimidated to do so, and had the fine folks at CarrollCustomCadillac (http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/97EldoradoVinny.aspx) take over.

83CADMAN
08-22-11, 04:15 PM
Remove the H/B? Might as well drop everything out the bottom.
My FSM says nothing about removing the H/B or the A/C compressor, just the short length of piping next to the strut tower on the passenger side and unbolting the compressor from the engine, everything from there is straight forward. I'm sure the more stuff I remove the easier the pull is going to be. I guess I just a minimalist. I dont want to mess with the A/C unless I absolutely must.

vincentm
08-22-11, 04:19 PM
Remove the H/B? Might as well drop everything out the bottom.
My FSM says nothing about removing the H/B or the A/C compressor, just the short length of piping next to the strut tower on the passenger side and unbolting the compressor from the engine, everything from there is straight forward. I'm sure the more stuff I remove the easier the pull is going to be. I guess I just a minimalist. I dont want to mess with the A/C unless I absolutely must.


the HB isn't removed until the engine is out, look at the repair link i posted here for my vehicle.

83CADMAN
08-22-11, 04:49 PM
I have removed a northstar out of a seville through the top.

I suggest removing the a/c compressor, a/c condenser, radiator and harmonic balancer.

So never mind the harmonic balancer, it has nothing to do with the removal of the engine.
I knew about removing the H/B after the fact if I need to access the timing chain cover along with everything else I need to remove to do a HG job. What Im looking for is;
Is there enough room to wiggle the engine past the A/C lines without having to evac the A/C system??

83CADMAN
08-22-11, 05:05 PM
Can it be done?

98eldo32v
08-22-11, 08:54 PM
I'd remove anything that is in the way.

You've already opened up the a/c system with the removal of the compressor. So, what if you have to remove a few lines for the sake of not ruining them?

The "o"rings probably need replacing anyway. Remove the lines that are in the way at the easiest removal point.

The harmonic balancer I removed because it allowed me a bit more room to pull to the right side of the vehicle. The motor is a tight fit, so why fight with things in the way?

The a/c compressor will not be able to be tied out of the way due to limited space........

Ranger
08-22-11, 11:10 PM
Can it be done?
I think it can and has been done. I seem to recall a picture of the compressor sitting on the sub frame with the engine removed, but don't take my word for it. Never done it.

83CADMAN
08-23-11, 11:02 AM
I think it can and has been done. I seem to recall a picture of the compressor sitting on the sub frame with the engine removed, but don't take my word for it. Never done it.
Thanks Ranger, now Iím getting somewhere.
At the risk of repeating myself;
My FSM clearly states ďun-bolt the compressor from engineĒ NOT REMOVE, so that must mean that the compressor and the lines attaching to it remain intact and that it can rest on the sub-frame.
What Iím considering is simply; Can I wiggle the engine past the A/C line in question?
Has anyone successfully attempted this (cheat-to-win technique).
I donít want to bulldoze the whole neighborhood to put in a new driveway just so I can have plenty of elbowroom. Like Iíve said before, ďIím a minimalistĒ. If it aint worn out or broke, donít fix-it. Iím not willing to shell out $50 to evac and another $150 to get it serviced and recharged. I have better uses for the money.
By the wayÖ
This car still smells new.
Everything is perfectÖexcept the F*#!&%@ HG.
It was a one owner AZ car and all miles are HWY with reg serviceing.

ThumperPup
08-23-11, 11:13 AM
i know jake has been taking N's out the top atleast since i first spoke with him when i was trying to get the caddy up to canada for him
but maybe it can only be doen on the Eldo and seville but i know jake takes them out the top all the time atleast this is what i remember reading and hearing from him

vincentm
08-23-11, 12:05 PM
i know jake has been taking N's out the top atleast since i first spoke with him when i was trying to get the caddy up to canada for him
but maybe it can only be doen on the Eldo and seville but i know jake takes them out the top all the time atleast this is what i remember reading and hearing from him

It's on his site:

We carefully REMOVE your engine before starting the repair process. We pull the engines through the top, it's actually a time saver for us and we also don't have to disconnect any suspension parts, steering linkage, brake lines, etc.

http://www.northstarperformance.com/hg.php

83CADMAN
08-23-11, 12:37 PM
It's on his site:

We carefully REMOVE your engine before starting the repair process. We pull the engines through the top, it's actually a time saver for us and we also don't have to disconnect any suspension parts, steering linkage, brake lines, etc.

http://www.northstarperformance.com/hg.php

Thanks for the link Vincentm,
I read the site and there is no mention of A/C other than a warning about in-car machining and the possibility of metal shavings getting into open lines etc.

Seems to me if Jake had to deal with the A/C system to the degree we are talking then he would have to certify the A/C recharge part of the repair. Also Iím sure he would market the fact that the A/C has been serviced and recharged properly as part of the total package.
HmmmÖ.no touch, no liability. COOL! That can mean only one thing! Its doable, HA!
Conformation would be nice through.

p.s. So your in Kennewick? I'm in Spokane. Use to live in Kennewick back in the late 70's, grew-up over in Walla Walla.

ThumperPup
08-23-11, 09:34 PM
also something i think i remember hearing is that Jake does not discharge the AC he does something where he can pinch a line or cap it off so it does not have to be recharged but this is just hearsay someone els told me this

Ranger
08-23-11, 09:39 PM
Can't be done.

vincentm
08-23-11, 11:09 PM
Can't be done.

:yeah:

89falcon
08-24-11, 02:19 AM
How about pulling the heads BEFORE the engine....that will help you get a better idea of what else needs to be done, as well as where all the brackets are......worse case, you could put the engine back in with only the rear head on....and install the front head over the studs IN the car.

83CADMAN
08-24-11, 12:16 PM
How about pulling the heads BEFORE the engine....that will help you get a better idea of what else needs to be done, as well as where all the brackets are......worse case, you could put the engine back in with only the rear head on....and install the front head over the studs IN the car.

Not a bad idea. Lighter load, easier to maneuver. The squeeze is at the rear head so installing would still present a challenge. Obviously it’s a tight squeeze pulling the engine out the top, and who wants to crack a pressurized refrigerant line.
According to my FSM its a clearance issue that requires removal of the 12” A/C line. I'm sure shop safety from accidental discharge dictates the procedure. I get that! Doesn’t mean it can’t be done or hasn’t been done if care is exercised.
On a 93 escort the difference between pulling out the top vs. dropping the power unit is one little stud that the accessory bracket hangs up on. Double nut the stud and remove it, presto engine’s out the top as slick as you please. Turns the job into a 1-hr task rather than 2 days + $$$$.
Can you say shop time?
What shop wants anyone to know these tricks?
Ya I know's its a Ford but, apples and oranges.
Thump, Pinching or crimping the lines? Out of the question!!! No way!
Use of a tubing bending tool maybe. even then risky.

83CADMAN
08-26-11, 05:03 PM
I find it very hard to belive nobody has tried this.

Ranger
08-26-11, 10:16 PM
I see no A/C compressor attached to this one.
http://www.denverlancaster.com/2009/06/its-like-legos-but-i-swear-lot-more.html
Like I said, I've seen a picture of the engine bay with the engine removed and the A/C compressor still sitting there wired to the sub frame, but I'll be damned if I can find it.

83CADMAN
08-27-11, 11:14 AM
I see no A/C compressor attached to this one.
http://www.denverlancaster.com/2009/06/its-like-legos-but-i-swear-lot-more.html
Like I said, I've seen a picture of the engine bay with the engine removed and the A/C compressor still sitting there wired to the sub frame, but I'll be damned if I can find it.
Thanks Ranger, I checked out the link and I don't see the A/C compressor attached to the engine in the last photo either. My FSM states to un-bolt not remove the compressor, but recommends to evac the system & remove the short length of A/C line. Thatís the item Iím concerned with. Can the engine wiggle past IT?
There is still hope.

ponyboyt
08-30-11, 01:50 PM
No need to drain the A/C. Every engine i pull comes out the top, A/C remains in-tact. Pull all the bolts holding it on, one is a stud, you can turn the stud out. Remove the alternator first, then move the compressor towards the rad suuport. You can manipulate the condensor a bit, just be careful not to bend any metal lines.

I dont have any pics of the older years, but i have a 2001 DTS coming out the top in a couple hours, not TOO much different.

And i lied, they dont all come out the top. Cars im scrapping come out the bottom in about 20 minutes, hanging off the back of a flatbed :)

83CADMAN
08-30-11, 06:25 PM
No need to drain the A/C. Every engine i pull comes out the top, A/C remains in-tact. Pull all the bolts holding it on, one is a stud, you can turn the stud out. Remove the alternator first, then move the compressor towards the rad suuport. You can manipulate the condensor a bit, just be careful not to bend any metal lines.

I dont have any pics of the older years, but i have a 2001 DTS coming out the top in a couple hours, not TOO much different.

And i lied, they dont all come out the top. Cars im scrapping come out the bottom in about 20 minutes, hanging off the back of a flatbed :)
Thanks ponyboyt,
So the engine will clear the upper A/C line at the passengers side strut tower?

ponyboyt
08-31-11, 11:01 AM
Its a 94, i cant picture it in my head, but if its the same as a 95, then yes.

83CADMAN
08-31-11, 01:17 PM
Its a 94, i cant picture it in my head, but if its the same as a 95, then yes.
It looks like this...79724

ponyboyt
08-31-11, 03:32 PM
there are a couple bolts holding brackets for the lines and the evaporator, once they are out you can move it a bit, lots of rubber line there.

The engine will come out without having to take out the A/C

foxjohnc
09-05-11, 04:07 PM
A/C does not need to be disconnected, just unbolt the compressor and slide it out of the way. Just be very careful when reinstalling the engine as the compressor and lines can easily be damaged when you lower the engine in place. The balancer does not need to be removed but I HIGHLY recommend that you remove the retaining bolt. When building n*s I install the bolt and torque it while the engine is out of the car to seat the balancer on the shaft and engage the oil pump. Then I remove it and reinstall it after the engine is installed. It makes a big difference when dropping the engine in if the bolt is left installed. You dont have much space to work with anyways so you might as well maximize what you have.

83CADMAN
09-06-11, 01:05 PM
A/C does not need to be disconnected, just unbolt the compressor and slide it out of the way. Just be very careful when reinstalling the engine as the compressor and lines can easily be damaged when you lower the engine in place. The balancer does not need to be removed but I HIGHLY recommend that you remove the retaining bolt. When building n*s I install the bolt and torque it while the engine is out of the car to seat the balancer on the shaft and engage the oil pump. Then I remove it and reinstall it after the engine is installed. It makes a big difference when dropping the engine in if the bolt is left installed. You dont have much space to work with anyways so you might as well maximize what you have.
Awesome! Thatís what I wanted to hear. If you can do it so can I, plus I plan to take my time on engine removal anyway. Iím long on time and short on cash, just like a lot of folks. Any one need drafting services?