: Auto vs Manual



Anabolicz
08-14-11, 03:47 PM
which is faster 0-60/quarter mile?

JOEYCTS-V
08-14-11, 03:49 PM
Automatico.

Anabolicz
08-14-11, 03:50 PM
That's what i'm saying, friend swears on the stick!

elphil
08-14-11, 04:15 PM
We're waiting for a dual clutch.

JFJr
08-14-11, 06:36 PM
I'm holding out for a guy that can work a manual transmission on a high speed and challenging road course like the 'Ring, after he's had some time to learn the shift points for the turns. There may be one or 2 (ha haa!), even some guys on this forum, then let's see which transmission is best for racing. (And we all know why Heinricy was driving an automatic for his record <8 min. run, so automatic guys, please do your homework and spare us.). So what's really important for a stock 4200#+ luxury sport super sedan, quarter mile times/trap speeds or elapsed times over a challenging road course?

Gary Wells
08-14-11, 07:06 PM
Cad CTS-V2 automatic versus manual trans data (as of 05-16-2010):


Manual trans (M6): Tremec TR6060 6 speed manual,
fully synchronized with single overdrive (MG9):
Gear ratios (:1) 1st: 2.66, 2nd: 1.78, 3rd: 1.30, 4th: 1.00,
5th: 0.80, 6th: 0.63, final: 3.73, reverse: 2.90

Gas Guzzler (GG) tax of $1300, or half that of the A6
Faster by 16 MPH (191 MPH versus 175 MPH (governed))
A tad slower in the 1/4 & on the street
A tad better *mileage* than the *auto* but probably not significant
About 38 more RWHP than the auto on the average
About 30 more RWTQ that the auto
About 95 lbs lighter that the auto
No remote start feature
Has “no lift-shift” feature



Automatic trans (A6): Hydra-matic 6L90E 6 speed
electronically controlled automatic overdrive with
torque converter clutch (MYD): Gear ratios (:1) 1st:
4.03, 2nd: 2.36, 3rd: 1.53, 4th: 1.15, 5th: 0.85, 6th: 0.67,
final: 3.23, reverse: 3.06

Gas Guzzler (GG) tax of $2600, or twice that of the M6
Slower by 16 MPH (175 MPH (governed) versus 191 MPH)
A tad quicker in the 1/4 & on the street
A tad worse mileage than the manual but probably not significant
About 38 less RWHP than the manual on the average
About 30 less RWTQ that the manual on the average
About 95 lbs more that the manual
Remote start feature

About 1 in every 6 ’09 CTS-V’s were / are manual trans (M6)



Cad CTS-V2 bone stock ¼ elapsed times & MPH’s, Owners, 60 ft.

¼ ET------MPH------trans-----owner---------60 ft. times

11.99-----118.4-----auto-----mpouls1--------1.823= 60 ft
12.01-----119.5-----auto-----Jutskin----------1.800= 60 ft
12.06-----119.6-----auto-----tedboss1--------1.950=60 ft
12.10-----118.0-----auto-----brent eb02
12.10-----119.0-----auto-----srt8/bmw
12.15-----117.1-----auto-----drunstix--------1.86= 60 ft
12.15-----116.5-----auto-----ctsveee---------1.885= 60 ft
12.20-----?????------auto-----fastrunner
12.22-----114.3-----auto-----veelocity-------1.83= 60 ft
12.31-----119.8-----manl----easy2speed
12.31-----114.4-----auto-----ctsveee---------1.92= 60 ft
12.32-----116.0-----auto-----hondarrr
12.36-----117.0-----auto-----kat mcrat
12.40-----116.4-----auto-----snzuloz---------1.94= 60 ft
12.49-----116.9-----auto-----co0lsly----------2.1= 60 ft
12.50-----?????------auto-----ready2roll
12.52-----114.8-----auto-----lawnstripes----2.06= 60 ft
12.53-----118.4-----auto-----tedboss1-------2.19= 60 ft
12.69-----111.0-----auto-----intervention302--- (ls1tech)



FWIW, IMHO, & HTH

tedcmiller
08-14-11, 08:09 PM
The standard automatic is definitely faster than the standard manual at low speed (I am talking about slower than 120 mph or so). This is true because an automatic can shift faster than any person can hope to shift a manual trasmission. However, the top speed of the automatic is limited to somewhat less than the manual because of heating considerations. After 130 mph or 140 mph, who cares?

Squirlz
08-14-11, 08:15 PM
I'm not getting a manual because I want to drag race. I'm getting a manual because I like to drive!

M5eater
08-14-11, 09:11 PM
The standard automatic is definitely faster than the standard manual at low speed (I am talking about slower than 120 mph or so). This is true because an automatic can shift faster than any person can hope to shift a manual trasmission. However, the top speed of the automatic is limited to somewhat less than the manual because of heating considerations. After 130 mph or 140 mph, who cares?
it's not really a big mechancial limitation to make the 90E do 190+. it's a new basket and shaft iirc, nothing horribly expensive. I'm fine with it, we are essentially talking about an OTS transmission that's also used in trucks.

JFJr
08-14-11, 09:29 PM
Well, if we're going to pursue this argument of which version of the "V" is "faster," then we need to be precise. The manual transmission version has a rated top speed of 191 mph; the automatic version, 175 mph. So what does that mean in a street-legal environment? You tell me. I think that we go back to basics and stop this endless argument. For those that want more control and enjoy being more involved in the driving experience, the manual is the best choice. Others that are burned out with manual transmissions or need the cupholders (sorry, the devil made me do it), the automatic is a better choice. Regardless of preferences I don't really believe that this forum will influence any enthusiast's choice.

Razorecko
08-14-11, 09:51 PM
Well, if we're going to pursue this argument of which version of the "V" is "faster," then we need to be precise. The manual transmission version has a rated top speed of 191 mph; the automatic version, 175 mph. So what does that mean in a street-legal environment? You tell me. I think that we go back to basics and stop this endless argument. For those that want more control and enjoy being more involved in the driving experience, the manual is the best choice. Others that are burned out with manual transmissions or need the cupholders (sorry, the devil made me do it), the automatic is a better choice. Regardless of preferences I don't really believe that this forum will influence any enthusiast's choice.

Not only to add to that but there is a large difference in production #'s for V's in terms of autos vs manuals. And like it was stated most manual V owners tend to not be drag strip runners so there are very few 1/4" times from the manual.

HeavyH20
08-14-11, 10:31 PM
On the strip, the auto is hands down the fastest for the obvious reasons. My buddy and I took our cars out to the strip and ran about 10 runs, head to head, and in all cases, my auto punished his stick down the quarter. We are talking about 4 tenths or more in a quarter, so not something insignificant. He had the same struggle I had with my older manual CTS-V, spinning in 1-2, 2-3 coupled with the time to row them on your own. In the end, however, as more than a few have pointed out, he still loves his manual since it is more of an enthusiast automobile than the auto.

thebigjimsho
08-14-11, 10:33 PM
Can't tell you how many people look inside my V and are shocked by seeing a manual trans shifter...

JFJr
08-15-11, 10:13 AM
I didn't start driving manual transmission cars until I was 40, and only then because my ultimate car guy neighbor at the end of the block talked me into it. However, over 25 years later, I can honestly say that driving high performance manual transmission cars has made me a much better driver, overall, because of the attention and involvement required. On top of that, the manual transmission setup in the current "V" is the best I've ever experienced, and the easiest to drive, which is pretty amazing considering how much torque it has to handle.

There, I've said my peace (for now). Ha haa! :lildevil:
Jud

Razorecko
08-15-11, 10:17 AM
I didn't start driving manual transmission cars until I was 40, and only then because my ultimate car guy neighbor at the end of the block talked me into it. However, over 25 years later, I can honestly say that driving high performance manual transmission cars has made me a much better driver, overall, because of the attention and involvement required. On top of that, the manual transmission setup in the current "V" is the best I've ever experienced, and the easiest to drive, which is pretty amazing considering how much torque it has to handle.

There, I've said my peace (for now). Ha haa! :lildevil:
Jud

I can agree with the better drive. I taught my younger brother to drive stick as his first car & first time driving. I think he only drove auto 1 time for a couple blocks for the last 3years since he got his license. He hates auto,lol. Not only that but it keeps him from eating, texting, playing with the radio. All the things that are big time distractions for the younger crowd. It really is a shame that parents are too afraid or not knowledgeable to have their teens first car/drive in a manual transmission car.

GTPprix
08-15-11, 11:47 AM
I'm a huge manual guy, my Z06 was obviously a stick and pretty much every toy I bought before it has been a stick. With the V I wanted something my wife could drive as she enjoys cars/drag racing probably as much as I do and in order for her to drive a stick she would pretty much have to sit on the airbag so that was a no no ;)

thebigjimsho
08-15-11, 12:11 PM
I can agree with the better drive. I taught my younger brother to drive stick as his first car & first time driving. I think he only drove auto 1 time for a couple blocks for the last 3years since he got his license. He hates auto,lol. Not only that but it keeps him from eating, texting, playing with the radio. All the things that are big time distractions for the younger crowd. It really is a shame that parents are too afraid or not knowledgeable to have their teens first car/drive in a manual transmission car.My father had me trying to park his BMW 2002 in the garage when I was 8. Also, when I was 12, he let me drive the Citation X-11 up and down my aunt's long driveway in NH. Both manual.

His friend also sold me my first car, an '80 Citation, 8 months before I got my license. I 3 point turned a big triangle in my driveway about a couple thousand times over that duration.

ItsJustMyCaddy
08-15-11, 12:25 PM
I can agree with the better drive. I taught my younger brother to drive stick as his first car & first time driving. I think he only drove auto 1 time for a couple blocks for the last 3years since he got his license. He hates auto,lol. Not only that but it keeps him from eating, texting, playing with the radio. All the things that are big time distractions for the younger crowd. It really is a shame that parents are too afraid or not knowledgeable to have their teens first car/drive in a manual transmission car.

Very timely post for me as I have just had this conversation with my 15yo daughter. She thinks it will be pretty cool to be the only one of her friends who can drive a manual transmission car. The only issue is that I don't think that the V is the right car for her to learn on so I might just buy her car early so she can learn on it.

As for the original thread topic, it appears as if the auto achieves better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but the enjoyment of driving the car and actually interacting in the process as oppossed to just pressing the gas is well worth the .1 seconds you are losing.

JFJr
08-15-11, 12:45 PM
Very timely post for me as I have just had this conversation with my 15yo daughter. She thinks it will be pretty cool to be the only one of her friends who can drive a manual transmission car. The only issue is that I don't think that the V is the right car for her to learn on so I might just buy her car early so she can learn on it.You're right about not teaching her in your expensive "V," but find an old BMW 3 or other similar manual transmission car and just do it while she's interested. She will be eternally grateful for the knowledge and you will be proud of her. My car guy neighbor taught my oldest daughter while I was riding in the back. He was the smoothest stick shift driver that I have ever seen, and taught me how to be smoother before teaching her, too. It's great to have car guy mentors (parent or otherwise) along the way.

Jud

serturbo
08-15-11, 04:38 PM
Very timely post for me as I have just had this conversation with my 15yo daughter. She thinks it will be pretty cool to be the only one of her friends who can drive a manual transmission car. The only issue is that I don't think that the V is the right car for her to learn on so I might just buy her car early so she can learn on it.

When I was being taught to drive, my parents told me they were teaching me to drive a manual so I could drive pretty much any car out there if I had to. That skill came in quite handy in high school because I didn't drink and my friends did. I was the DD that could always be counted on to get them home.

Razorecko
08-16-11, 07:53 AM
Very timely post for me as I have just had this conversation with my 15yo daughter. She thinks it will be pretty cool to be the only one of her friends who can drive a manual transmission car. The only issue is that I don't think that the V is the right car for her to learn on so I might just buy her car early so she can learn on it.

As for the original thread topic, it appears as if the auto achieves better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but the enjoyment of driving the car and actually interacting in the process as oppossed to just pressing the gas is well worth the .1 seconds you are losing.

I helped my brother get into a few year old audi. Thats your best bet, they come readily in manual transmission and their AWD quattro system will keep her on the road in bad conditions

M5eater
08-16-11, 08:06 AM
I helped my brother get into a few year old audi. Thats your best bet, they come readily in manual transmission and their AWD quattro system will keep her on the road in bad conditions

Good tires keep people on the road, Quattro can't fix all-seasons in snow and ice, or heavy rain. I've had 2 B5's and currently have a C5, the last guy that bought the S4 managed to tear the front-end off because he thought a trip to CO in Januarary was a good idea on 4/32 Eagle GT's.

Razorecko
08-16-11, 08:40 AM
Good tires keep people on the road, Quattro can't fix all-seasons in snow and ice, or heavy rain. I've had 2 B5's and currently have a C5, the last guy that bought the S4 managed to tear the front-end off because he thought a trip to CO in Januarary was a good idea on 4/32 Eagle GT's.

Oh I agree about the tires, BUT how often do you see teens checking treadwear on their tires or making sure they're all at the right psi ?

M5eater
08-16-11, 08:47 AM
Oh I agree about the tires, BUT how often do you see teens checking treadwear on their tires or making sure they're all at the right psi ?

at least every other 3,000 years.

Razorecko
08-16-11, 09:01 AM
Yea its a sad sad situation when a majority of teens can't even change a flat tire properly. I dont even think any high schools even offer "auto" class anymore. Where you could atleast learn the basics of cars and how they function. Who would need that nowadays.....Its not like we spend hours a week in the car...oh wait.

Brightlight674
08-16-11, 09:23 AM
The only thing I have seen teen drivers worry about in the last few years is the stereo! Seems like the trend now is to tint the windows, add a bunch of vinyl stick on graphics, some cheap fiberglass body moldings and let's not forget the "fart" muffler for the little four bangers. All too often we see a $500 car with $5000 in rims, stereo, and stick on crap driving around us in South Jersey!

Pfcmac
09-10-11, 05:02 AM
when i was in hs i was always checking my tires psi and tread wear. but that might b bcuz i have a '10 camaro lol

Fireverm
09-10-11, 10:36 AM
when i was in hs i was always checking my tires psi and tread wear. but that might b bcuz i have a '10 camaro lol

The construction of your post clearly indicates that you were in high school just last year :)

Related to the topic on hand, I much prefer a manual over an automatic transmission. Every vehicle I currently own is manual trans and even my wife prefers it that way. We also set the stabilitrak on the V to competition mode every time we fire up the car. I know I can't shift as fast as an auto or DCT, but for me, the less the car does the more fun and engaging it is to drive. Dealing with a stick while in traffic is a small price to pay to have much better driving experience overall.

Razorecko
09-10-11, 01:18 PM
The construction of your post clearly indicates that you were in high school just last year :)

Related to the topic on hand, I much prefer a manual over an automatic transmission. Every vehicle I currently own is manual trans and even my wife prefers it that way. We also set the stabilitrak on the V to competition mode every time we fire up the car. I know I can't shift as fast as an auto or DCT, but for me, the less the car does the more fun and engaging it is to drive. Dealing with a stick while in traffic is a small price to pay to have much better driving experience overall.

Not only that but you never have to worry about how your car will shift

4gear70
09-10-11, 02:32 PM
Not only that but you never have to worry about how your car will shift

:thumbsup: Yup, it shifts when I damn well tell it to shift.. no sooner, no later.

VChick
09-11-11, 01:11 PM
I'm not getting a manual because I want to drag race. I'm getting a manual because I like to drive!

80305

JFJr
09-11-11, 05:22 PM
which is faster 0-60/quarter mile?Which is faster on a high speed road course?

Thrill6
09-11-11, 10:54 PM
I started driving a stick shift when I was about 12 years old to help the parents swap cars back and forth out the drive way. I've had manuals in every performance car I've ever owned, and had auto's in everything else. My next car purchase in a CTS-V and I'm on the fence on which tranny to get. I love driving a manual, but can get hard on the leg in traffic. My biggest complaint with autos in the past is their lack of responsivness to shifting. I've had cars with "sport" shifting before and have been very less than impressed with them. You tell it shift and a half second later (or longer) it shifts. I test drove an auto CTS-V and was very impressed with the speed of shifting with the paddle shifters. Still not sure which way to go, but I'm leaning toward the auto since the V will be a DD.

ajjones44
09-12-11, 06:48 AM
I picked up a manual for one reason. Reliability.......after my family having transmission problems with two caddys and two avalanches is was time for a manual.

M5eater
09-12-11, 08:12 AM
Which is faster on a high speed road course?

are there any reliable, back-to-back, comparisons of the two transmissions on any road-course? I would be highly interested to know how much of an advan..... difference there is between the two :)


I picked up a manual for one reason. Reliability.......after my family having transmission problems with two caddys and two avalanches is was time for a manual.

You know.. I will say my experience with amercian powertrains is still in it's infancy, but I have yet to experience any difference in my life in terms of reliability between an Auto or Manual. I will say, I've had to yank the 01A and 01E in my A4/S4 probally a dozen+ times for various issues. For high-power application, I would say, yes there's some natural reliability/ easy of upgrading a manual versus an auto, but it's still possible to destroy one, and I've seen many more high-mileage autos keep on running than manuals. There's also a reason autos are strictly used in trucks these days.

6speeder
09-12-11, 09:45 AM
are there any reliable, back-to-back, comparisons of the two transmissions on any road-course? I would be highly interested to know how much of an advan..... difference there is between the two

I picked up a manual for one reason. Reliability.......after my family having transmission problems with two caddys and two avalanches is was time for a manual.
You know.. I will say my experience with amercian powertrains is still in it's infancy, but I have yet to experience any difference in my life in terms of reliability between an Auto or Manual. I will say, I've had to yank the 01A and 01E in my A4/S4 probally a dozen+ times for various issues. For high-power application, I would say, yes there's some natural reliability/ easy of upgrading a manual versus an auto, but it's still possible to destroy one, and I've seen many more high-mileage autos keep on running than manuals. There's also a reason autos are strictly used in trucks these days.

So you're trading tranny reliability for clutch issues. The slave used by GM since the C5 came out is very problematic. Also, if you up the horsepower very much, the clutch WILL go. My 4 year old C6 Z06 is on it's fourth clutch (admittedly 572 SAE RWHP has something to do with it).

M5eater
09-12-11, 09:58 AM
So you're trading tranny reliability for clutch issues. The slave used by GM since the C5 came out is very problematic. Also, if you up the horsepower very much, the clutch WILL go. My 4 year old C6 Z06 is on it's fourth clutch (admittedly 572 SAE RWHP has something to do with it).

Ditto, there are problems making big power on either transmission. I won't go so far to say that there are not advantages to a manual in making power, but it's not as big as it's percieved to be.

ajjones44
09-12-11, 12:22 PM
are there any reliable, back-to-back, comparisons of the two transmissions on any road-course? I would be highly interested to know how much of an advan..... difference there is between the two :)


You know.. I will say my experience with amercian powertrains is still in it's infancy, but I have yet to experience any difference in my life in terms of reliability between an Auto or Manual. I will say, I've had to yank the 01A and 01E in my A4/S4 probally a dozen+ times for various issues. For high-power application, I would say, yes there's some natural reliability/ easy of upgrading a manual versus an auto, but it's still possible to destroy one, and I've seen many more high-mileage autos keep on running than manuals. There's also a reason autos are strictly used in trucks these days.

The reason autos are used on trucks is for ease of use and fuel mileage. A computer controlled trans can easily split gears to produce better milage. Go to chevyavalanchefanclub.com and you can see the thousands of issues individuals have had with Transmission problems. Not to say the 6L90 (?) will have the same problems but after having 4 GM transmissions replaced in the past 8 years I decided to go with the M6.

SecretWeapon
09-12-11, 04:56 PM
I got the manual for one reason - I feel more connected to my vehicle.

M5eater
09-12-11, 05:50 PM
The reason autos are used on trucks is for ease of use and fuel mileage. A computer controlled trans can easily split gears to produce better milage. Go to chevyavalanchefanclub.com and you can see the thousands of issues individuals have had with Transmission problems. Not to say the 6L90 (?) will have the same problems but after having 4 GM transmissions replaced in the past 8 years I decided to go with the M6.
You can't use forums as a reliable source of information regarding reliability statistics. For one, there's no other transmission available in the avalanche, so there's 0 data to compare failures against. two I see about 1 good faith thread for every 1,000 problem threads even on these forums. People don't go to a forum looking to post how their transmission has lasted 300K. They go to fix problems. Four, we're talking about a vehicle with production numbers from 01-06 exceeding 400K units. When you can come back to me with 4300+ documented transmission failure cases with 100K or more miles(ie out of warranty), you still wouldn't be at the nominal level of wear for most cars.