: Racing threads, why not



JimmyH
08-12-11, 05:48 PM
I know alot of you think it's silly to restrict talk about racing. And you are right, it is. In a perfect world, people should be able to talk about it responsibly. If that's possible. Unfortunately, forum history shows that anytime it's discussed, the discussion degenerates very quickly into discussion that is far from responsible, and very far from mature. And it introduces liability into the forum.

Believe it or not, the owner of this site wishes racing talk could be allowed. Others of us don't agree. I personally don't think even track racing should be discussed, because, for example; if two people on here start talking about going to the strip for a grudge race, one of those persons tragically gets killed in the race, it becomes known that the grudge match originated here...

Several threads had to be deleted recently, so I am just throwing up a friendly reminder. We all know street racing happens. So there is no need to bring it up here.

JimmyH
08-12-11, 05:53 PM
Btw, for those of you who think street racing does not necessarily have to be dangerous; my step-dad is a forensic engineer. One of the engineers who works for him specializes in traffic accident reconstruction. I have seen some cases (and gruesome photos) that would prove any one of you very, very wrong. He has had several of them over the years. The ironic part, is that not even one of those cases involved teenage drivers. All the cases, without exception, involved older, more experienced drivers.

shade
08-12-11, 06:04 PM
for example; if two people on here start talking about going to the strip for a grudge race, one of those persons tragically gets killed in the race, it becomes known that the grudge match originated here...


Sorry your example is not a good one. So if rapist watches porn on the internet then rapes a woman he can blame it on the internet. At what point do say your a grown up it doesnt matter where it originates.

Owner if this site shouldnt worry so much about getting sued.

smackdownCTSV
08-12-11, 06:04 PM
So racing on the highway is no good?

RippyPartsDept
08-12-11, 06:36 PM
Owner if this site shouldnt worry so much about getting sued.

i bet if you paid for his lawyer he wouldn't

hemi2LS
08-12-11, 06:46 PM
So should we stop talking about cars also, because without out them, then there wouldn't be any racing to begin with?
Sounds like if were gonna place blame on the when and where things originated from might as well dig up or exume the person who first invented the automobile and hold trial.
Stuff happens and it's not cuz it was discussed here or at one of the Meets that was held by a forum member who gave the directions in one of his/her post.
Each individual who goes in to a dealership and purchase one of these high powered cars offered by "Cadillac", is and should be held fully accountable for whatever happens when behind the wheel of their vehicle.
I think any finger pointing or blame that can be given is lost when the member signs the sales contract.

cbloveday
08-12-11, 06:48 PM
There are other forums that allow such Hooliganism

neuronbob
08-12-11, 07:03 PM
I understand the reasoning. Being in a profession in which someone can sue if they don't like the color of your tie that day, I understand the paranoia. Enough said.

buddyg
08-12-11, 07:14 PM
I disagree with the logic on allowing the racing stories but in the end the owner of this site can do what he wants. If I or anyone else doesn't like it we can go somewhere else. That's the great thing about this Country.

cbloveday
08-12-11, 08:31 PM
Discussing anything illegal is not acceptable per the user agreement/rules we accepted when hitting the enroll button.
I salute the forum for keeping this in force. While I enjoy a good read every now and then, it is not why I am a supporting member.
I can get that on other forums. I am here because cadillacforums.com is a class act and I am proud to be part of that.

EDIT: Also, I have made some friendships with good people here. Ordinarily, we would never have met.

JimmyH
08-12-11, 08:36 PM
Stuff happens and it's not cuz it was discussed here or at one of the Meets that was held by a forum member who gave the directions in one of his/her post.
Each individual who goes in to a dealership and purchase one of these high powered cars offered by "Cadillac", is and should be held fully accountable for whatever happens when behind the wheel of their vehicle.
I think any finger pointing or blame that can be given is lost when the member signs the sales contract.

see below


...In a perfect world...

Lord Cadillac
08-12-11, 08:59 PM
To those of you who don't understand why we don't allow the discussion of illegal street racing, let me say this...

I know this type of talk happens at most other forums. I have argued ON YOUR SIDE numerous times behind the scenes. However, I do not make the rules of this site to suit my own personal interests. The rules are set in what we (the team) believe and agree is best for the community as a whole. On numerous occasions my own team argued against my feelings that we should allow drag racing discussion. Not only that, on numerous occasions the members voted against allowing these discussions. What kind of administrator would I be if I made all the decisions myself and/or completely disregarded what most of the community wanted?

When all is said and done, the discussion of illegal activity is not allowed here. And this was a smart decision by my team and the members of this community as I have two attorneys in my family who've explained to me that I CAN indeed be held responsible, in certain scenarios, for KNOWINGLY allowing the discussion of illegal activity in this community.

It's very easy to SAY, "don't worry about getting sued"... But in America, I don't believe ANYONE who says that honestly means it...

JimmyH
08-12-11, 09:07 PM
I have argued ON YOUR SIDE numerous times behind the scenes. However, I do not make the rules of this site to suit my own personal interests.

^believe that

This is one of the few forum admins I have seen who actually posts and discusses with the members of the forum.

Besides, while Section 230 might protect you, it doesn't stop anyone from filing a lawsuit.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-11, 09:14 PM
Unfortunately, most automotive forums as busy as this one aren't owned by the person who started them. They're now owned by corporations with little interest in the cars or the community. Sometimes the forum owner sells the community and actually stays onboard for a small salary - but most don't. Most sell, buy their dream car and get on with their life.


^believe that

This is one of the few forum admins I have seen who actually posts and discusses with the members of the forum.

Besides, while Section 230 might protect you, it doesn't stop anyone from filing a lawsuit.

JimmyH
08-12-11, 09:31 PM
There are still a few privately owned, like you. And unlike you, they post news stories on the front page and that's it.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-11, 09:34 PM
Are you sure those aren't just RSS feeds automatically posted? Sorta like these:
http://cadillacforums.com/cadillac.php

...and these...
http://www.buickforums.com/


There are still a few privately owned, like you. And unlike you, they post news stories on the front page and that's it.

JimmyH
08-12-11, 09:49 PM
well, at least one of them creates threads, then links the contents on the front page. But he never posts any responses to his own, or any other threads. Maybe, I don't know.

hemi2LS
08-13-11, 01:33 AM
I am not saying in any way open up a section for street racing talk, that's ridiculous. Drag races at an actual "Drag Strip" in a control enviroment, I see no problem with. Even Hypothetical race talk, for example, the who would win out of car A and B if they raced, what upgrades would it take for it to win? things like that "I" see are no worst than what's being allowed now. I am not a administrator or the one who says what's allowed and or not allowed, but I totally understand either way. Just this forum gets a lil boring reading" hey has anybody heard from vendor X still haven't received my parts, whats that clicking sound, is that alcantra or suede, or why cant I PM yet"?

only my thoughts..

litig8r187
08-13-11, 01:54 AM
I'm an attorney and I don't buy into the "Internet made me do it" crap. Of course, I'm not an ambulance chaser either. As a prosecutor for 23 years and former police officer, I've make my living holding people responsible for their choices. My attitude is probably as a result of hearing every whinny a**ed excuse for why some scumbag sold dope, raped his sister, killed some dude or drove drunk. I don't buy it.

That said, it is owner's well thought out and discussed choice not to allow that kind of talk and, as a guest on THEIR forum, I respect their wishes.

LitiGATOR
08-13-11, 07:17 AM
The reason forums don't allow talk of illegal racing isn't to protect the site; it's to protect the users. Some poeple have got in trouble by LEO from things they posted on the forum/Internet. I'm not saying that someone couldn't sue the forum's owner, but that's not a very solid case IMO. Unless there was some kind of implicit encouragement/endorsement of illegal drag racing, I don't believe the owner has too much to worry about at the end of the day. But, whether a lawsuit has merit or not is something that is determined until after the suit has been filed and I am sure the sites' owners don't want to deal with the headaches of defending themselves in court.

Just my $.02

Lord Cadillac
08-13-11, 10:26 AM
The reason forums don't allow talk of illegal racing isn't to protect the site; it's to protect the users. Some poeple have got in trouble by LEO from things they posted on the forum/Internet. I'm not saying that someone couldn't sue the forum's owner, but that's not a very solid case IMO. Unless there was some kind of implicit encouragement/endorsement of illegal drag racing, I don't believe the owner has too much to worry about at the end of the day. But, whether a lawsuit has merit or not is something that is determined until after the suit has been filed and I am sure the sites' owners don't want to deal with the headaches of defending themselves in court.

Just my $.02

Exactly. Defending yourself in court costs money - and that can get very expensive. I'm sure plenty of defendants simply run out of money and lose their cases for that reason alone.

RippyPartsDept
08-13-11, 10:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crARnAJv1EM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PweqWOsSxAA

JimmyH
08-13-11, 03:25 PM
I am not saying in any way open up a section for street racing talk, that's ridiculous. Drag races at an actual "Drag Strip" in a control enviroment, I see no problem with. Even Hypothetical race talk, for example, the who would win out of car A and B if they raced, what upgrades would it take for it to win? things like that "I" see are no worst than what's being allowed now.


I agree with you completely. The problem is that the talk NEVER stays hypothetical. It always escalates. Hence why we shut them down as a preemptive strike. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

there used to be subforum here for racing talk. It was Sal's idea. But it takes almost constant moderation, something we just can't do here. There are too many subforums here.

The Tony Show
08-13-11, 04:10 PM
Don't forget it also discourages the factory from having any involvement on the forum with you, the owners. We have Cadillac Customer Care reps who post on the forums, and had a conference call with forum members and the CTS-V Engineering team back in 2005. If this place was a cesspool of foul language, street racing stories and personal attacks, none of that would be happening.

It's not just about CYA, guys- it's also about building a relationship between Cadillac and the forum so our members can benefit from having a direct line of communication to the factory and engineers.

Gary Wells
08-13-11, 07:20 PM
This very same subject came up about about a year ago or so and I asked the owner of >TurboBuick.com< if it was OK to ask the members of CadillacOwners.com if they wanted to post racing subjects & stories over there. He agreed. I presented the situation to Florian if he would ask the forum elders over here if they objected. Florian PM'ed me back that it was OK, and that he had asked maybe Sal?, maybe TheTonyShow? if it was OK. The response was positive. I did post up on CadillacOwners that if they wanted to join >TurboBuick.com< they were welcome to participate in the festivities over there:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/kill-fish-stories/

Many CadillacOwners CTS-VI & VII & possibly some STS-V owners have owned turboBuicks in the past, and / or still do.
It doesn't matter if the events are real or otherwise.
Do not be surprised if you do receive a challenge from someone in your local area.
Language is strictly enforced.
I am not interested in getting beat up for this, it just seems to me a good opportunity for peeps over here to join in some of the activities over there.
I do try and put together cruises for the So-Cal Cad CTS-V's, STS-V's, & the turboBuick clan.

litig8r187
08-13-11, 09:55 PM
Don't forget it also discourages the factory from having any involvement on the forum with you, the owners. We have Cadillac Customer Care reps who post on the forums, and had a conference call with forum members and the CTS-V Engineering team back in 2005. If this place was a cesspool of foul language, street racing stories and personal attacks, none of that would be happening.

It's not just about CYA, guys- it's also about building a relationship between Cadillac and the forum so our members can benefit from having a direct line of communication to the factory and engineers.

Maybe it is simply a different way of thinking at Cadillac but, as the owner of a SRT charger and former owner of a Grand Cherokee SRT, I have been on the cherokeesrt forums and the Charger forums for several years. They are always talking about racing including street racing (which I do not endorse). It doesn't slow those boards down even a little. They also have almost monthly chat sessions with SRT engineers. Many of the posters are Chrysler insiders. They are very active on that site. It also seems to be a much busier site than this one. I don't have a problem with the owner's of this site making the choice they have but, lets be honest, it is a philosophical decision based on their own personal feelings. It doesn't have squat to do with liability or "company" support.

translux
08-14-11, 12:37 PM
As much as I would like to share stories of my misspent adulthood I understand.
Does anyone recall the tragedy that played out on the M5/6 forums a couple years ago?
I'm sure there were consequences for the forum operators.

cbloveday
08-14-11, 01:09 PM
I recall reading about that.

gnxs
08-15-11, 10:44 AM
As much as I would like to share stories of my misspent adulthood I understand.
Does anyone recall the tragedy that played out on the M5/6 forums a couple years ago?
I'm sure there were consequences for the forum operators.
I remember that kid and the posts he was making that preceded it. I doubt there were any consequences to the site, after all, what did they do to promote what happened? Most of the members that posted in response to some of the posts that kid made tried to talk some sense and responsibility into him. The only people responsible for what happened to him (and unfortunately his friends that were with him) were himself and possibly his parents, who thought letting a teenager loose with a 500 hp M5 was a good idea.

If there is an instance of a site being sued because of the content posted by individual members, I'd love to see a link to it. I can't recall that happening, but to be honest I've never really looked all that hard either. That said, I respect the rules of the forum and will continue to follow them in regard to street racing discussions.

The Tony Show
08-15-11, 12:37 PM
It's not just the site getting sued- it's the fact that Internet braggadocio often encourages people to go do dumb things so they can post videos or stories on the forum, and sometimes they get killed or injure others in the process. We're not going to be the place that gives them a forum to convince themselves and others it's a good idea.

If a discussion about how to break into and steal cars was posted up here, we'd lock it too. Discussion of illegal activities leads nowhere but trouble.

js615
08-15-11, 04:36 PM
That Greystone Airport incident has to be one of the saddest things I have read about in some time. Makes you think twice about all the speed and performance of our cars.

I watched the end of the Watkins Glenn NASCAR race today while on the treadmill - there was a brutal wreck that involved David Ragan & David Reutimann; thankfully both those guys were ok becuase of all the safety gear built in the car. reading about the Florida M5 wreck made wonder about all this speed and performance talked about in these forums - I never hear of anyone talke about roll cages or fire supression systems or other improvements outside of spped and horsepower. My goodness, what if a street V blew a front tire, hit a pot hole, or over shot a corner at the speeds some of the folks here allegedly drive at - I'm sure the outcome would not be so forgiving.

Scary stuff man, scary.

cdog533
08-15-11, 05:54 PM
When all is said and done, the discussion of illegal activity is not allowed here. And this was a smart decision by my team and the members of this community as I have two attorneys in my family who've explained to me that I CAN indeed be held responsible, in certain scenarios, for KNOWINGLY allowing the discussion of illegal activity in this community.

Technically, any kind of modification made to a car not approved by the EPA is illegal.

Things like Corsa exhausts, K&N filters, CAI systems, Wait4me tunes, etc. are ALL technically illegal on the street (that's why they say OFF ROAD USE ONLY on them), and therefore 80% of our discussions on here should probably not occur, if we follow the rules as stated.

Why is 'street racing' talk banned but '630 RWHP' talk OK? Both are discussing illegal and potentially criminal actions?

Drag racing, at a track, which is banned here, is VERY legal -- changing your air filter to a K&N, which is illegal, isn't banned. There are some flaws in that logic.

Just a thought....

The Tony Show
08-15-11, 06:11 PM
Wrong. Modifications to the emission control systems, such as removing catalytic converters, are illegal. Air filters and computer tunes might not be kosher with GM's warranty, but they certainly don't violate the law. There's also the tiny fact that changing your air filter or swapping fuel injectors isn't going to kill an innocent bystander like street racing can (and does).

Honestly, I can't even believe I really need to explain the difference between the illegality and inherent danger of street racing versus potential CARB violations by changing an air filter.

JimmyH
08-15-11, 07:53 PM
In many states, modifying any part of the exhaust system on a motorcycle is illegal. I bet you would have a hard time finding an example of that one being enforced.

The Tony Show
08-15-11, 08:31 PM
Drag racing, at a track, which is banned here, is VERY legal -- changing your air filter to a K&N, which is illegal, isn't banned. There are some flaws in that logic.

Just a thought....

And I don't know where you got the idea legal track racing talk is banned here. I'm currently advocating a dragstrip showdown between modded V's in another thread, and members are always posting up tales from track days, both road course and drag racing.

We draw the line at illegal racing that endangers people's lives- racing on the track is all good.