: 2012 BMWM5 VS 2011 CTS-V which one is the better car for the money?



jrwoods
07-22-11, 05:17 AM
http://rawautos.com/2011/06/photo-spec-comparison-2011-cadillac-cts-v-vs-2012-bmw-m5/

MReiland
07-22-11, 06:08 AM
I'm gonna go with the V, but some might call me slightly biased......

Busabob
07-22-11, 06:24 AM
BMW's are undoubtedly fantastic cars, they just have never appealed to me. Nice car, but $105k?? Why when you can buy a V for $45k, dump $5-$10k into it and be at 600rwhp? To me it's about "value" and I don't see value in paying $105k for that car.

cbloveday
07-22-11, 06:28 AM
For the $, the V is a better car. I owned an 2007 BMW M6 and traded it in @ 15,000 miles for the V. I have no regrets....

I have modded both and have had more enjoyment from the V. If you get an M5, look closely at the front end of the V, prior to your purchase. You won't see it again.

All you'll see is the rear end of the V.

M5eater
07-22-11, 06:40 AM
BMW's are undoubtedly fantastic cars, they just have never appealed to me. Nice car, but $105k?? To me it's about "value" and I don't see value in paying $105k for that car.

Yes the V is cheaper, but honestly, it shows even compared to my 10 year old S4 and A6. The build quality isn't the same(half painted rims.. really?), the luxury ''gadets'' are nearly non-existiant compared to the M5, it generally feels less refined and controlled than the E60 did(nevermind the F10), and the looks are debateable . It may push 100K, but the depreciation is absolutely horrible, there are 30K range E60's out there right now, and it's worth every penny.

The things that were the determining factors in my decision were;
SBC supercharged LS3 and both drivetrains are very simple, respond well to mods and are very easy (and cheap) to maintain, nearly every part on the car is used on another one somewhere else.
The black diamond package
I loved the G8, and having an anti-american car vibe for most of my life has finnaly worn off


Why when you can buy a V for $45k, dump $5-$10k into it and be at 600rwhp?
if it's like most other M engines, it's probally already near it's tolerence limit for most of the components, but I wouldn't expect anything less than 570-600's range whp from a simple tune, even the 7speed DCT's have very little drivetrain loss

Florian
07-22-11, 09:39 AM
V = velocity and Value.


F

neuronbob
07-22-11, 09:51 AM
And this is a question why exactly?

In these terrible economic times, value in the sport luxury segment wins, and will continue to. The current V outsells the M5 IIRC and I expect that to continue. I mean, why spend the extra money if you don't have to?

No doubt, though, the new M5 is a fabulous car on paper and in the looks department. It has as much power as our V and is lighter. I suspect it would win a race based on this....though as in all things it would turn out to be primarily a driver's contest.

M5eater
07-22-11, 10:07 AM
And this is a question why exactly?

In these terrible economic times, value in the sport luxury segment wins, and will continue to. The current V outsells the M5 IIRC and I expect that to continue.No doubt, though, the new M5 is a fabulous car on paper and in the looks department. It has as much power as our V and is lighter. I suspect it would win a race based on this....though as in all things it would turn out to be primarily a driver's contest.

I rather suspect the V2's success is partially based on the fact that Americans will buy american cars over imports if they're good, and the V2 is pretty good.
I would highly doubt the V2 outsells any german in europe for example..


I mean, why spend the extra money if you don't have to?

I would bet many here would rather be in an F10 M5 if money were not a factor. You're not going to tell me you'd rather have an Accent over a fiesta or focus because the accent is cheaper yet still gets 40mpg. There's much more between the two cars that makes the fiesta and focus better besides the obivous point I mentioned.

neuronbob
07-22-11, 11:31 AM
^^^^^
I suspect your first argument is correct for some....it is for me. I don't usually buy American cars, but this car was simply so compelling that I had to try it. So far, after 28 months of ownership, the experiment is a resounding success. :thumbsup:

Your second point I agree with less, or at least in my specific case. If money were not a factor, I'd have a V AND an M5 AND a Volt (the latter to make up for having two gas hogs). :)

translux
07-22-11, 12:30 PM
I will certainly go drive the new M5 and I have owned several-two E39's and two E60's.
I also had never personally owned a domestic daily driver. This despite the fact that I always wanted to nothing was close to the M5. Then I drove the 2nd gen V and fell in love. It reminded me of me favorite M the E39 in so many ways but also had elements of the E60. Most notable the ahead of it's time styling. I also like the uniqueness and exclusive engine, gearbox and suspension of the V. The M5 is going to have the same engine that's in two of their SUV's. As mentioned above the CTS styling especially in the V format was ahead of it's time and like the E60 looked out of place for awhile but both have recently become in fashion.
Look I'm sure the M5 will be built like a fortress-although the previous E60 5 series had terrible crash ratings????- have incredible comfort, technology and increased room it will move further away from the V in terms of driving dynamics and pleasure.
It also feels great to drive a real world class car that's made in the good old USA.
I'm at 11k miles and still find excuses to go for a drive. I also look back at her every time I park.
To me those are the ultimate testaments to the fact that the love affair continues.

GM-4-LIFE
07-22-11, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't trade my 2011 V Coupe for any other car out there, ESPECIALLY NOT the poor quality BMWs I have seen in the recent past. My sister has had 3 BMWs recently and they were all terrible in quality. Not one went without MAJOR issues! Engine problems, trannys going out early, electrical issues, etc.

The new M5 may be nice. I like the look, but at over $100K, no freakin way! Even if you paid MSRP for the V, that would leave you with over $30K left over for mods and it would spank the M5 all day long. I think the V bone stock right now will beat the new M5. BMWs have always been low in the torque area. The previous gen M5 had 500HP and 383 LB-FT. of torque! I mean come on! The V is almost equal in HP and TQ.

My vote goes to the V!

M5eater
07-22-11, 01:34 PM
I also like the uniqueness and exclusive engine, gearbox and suspension of the V. The M5 is going to have the same engine that's in two of their SUV's.
with the exception of the intercooler, the rear end(I *think*, don't quote me), and the smaller supercharger, there's nothing unique about the V powertrain.

GM-4-LIFE
07-22-11, 01:44 PM
And soon, the ZL1 Camaro will sport an even better version of the LSA than our Vs for a lot less money!

translux
07-22-11, 01:49 PM
The engine is special for sure the only other car currently with a an LSA is a super car- the ZR-1
And yes the suspension is shared with some mundane cars as well as the ZR-1, Ferrari California and the 599 :thumbsup:


with the exception of the intercooler, the rear end(I *think*, don't quote me), and the smaller supercharger, there's nothing unique about the V powertrain.

neuronbob
07-22-11, 02:00 PM
Well, actually, the Corvette ZR-1 has an LS9. Similar, but not quite the same. The Camaro ZL-1 will indeed get an LSA.

M5eater
07-22-11, 02:10 PM
Well, actually, the Corvette ZR-1 has an LS9. Similar, but not quite the same. The Camaro ZL-1 will indeed get an LSA.
you get the block, and the HG's from the LS9, everything else is different.

BLitzkrieg
07-22-11, 02:17 PM
The ZL1 LSA has a different blower lid and intercooler. Just sayin

JimmyH
07-22-11, 03:25 PM
Your second point I agree with less, or at least in my specific case. If money were not a factor, I'd have a V AND an M5 AND a Volt (the latter to make up for having two gas hogs). :)

If money were no object, I would bet everyone on this board would have a fleet of cars. I would.

translux
07-22-11, 03:27 PM
The ZL1 LSA has a different blower lid and intercooler. Just sayin

Yah I know let me live the fantasy that I have a 4 -door ZR-1 with a suspension good enough for the 599 ;)

OhioCTSV
07-22-11, 03:48 PM
Four door performance to the dollar, it's tough to beat the CTS-V. The new M5 appears to be a killer sedan though....

cbloveday
07-22-11, 03:56 PM
I grew up always wanting to own a Mercedes or BMW before I die. I was finally in the position to own a top of the line sport coupe from BMW.
I bought the M6 with 59 miles on it. It was a dissapointment to me at the end of the day.

JimmyH
07-22-11, 04:37 PM
I used to want an E39 M5 really bad. But there's a stigma that comes with BMWs I since don't care for.

Caddy Wagon
07-22-11, 04:53 PM
BMW, Mercedes, etc. = high $$$ to maintain and modify = No thanks.

tbss08
07-22-11, 04:54 PM
Every forum you go to is so fun to read the reasons why one would own one brand over another. If you go to the BMW forums they are saying how much the V weighs and the M5 will spank the doors off of the V. I've owned GM vehicles for a long time. In the last 7 years I've had two C6 Z06's, a C5 Z06, an SSR, and a 96 Grandsport. Until I purchased the C6 Z's I had a good experience with GM, a couple of problem cars but for the most part a good experience. It will be interesting to see the reliability and power of the M5 when they start hitting the streets. We have already seen issues with some of the V's.

kirbyCTSV
07-22-11, 05:01 PM
Every forum you go to is so fun to read the reasons why one would own one brand over another. If you go to the BMW forums they are saying how much the V weighs and the M5 will spank the doors off of the V. This is true...I wil say this forum isnt as bad (as far as being objective) as BMW forums...they really take it personally that a car can/should be compared to theirs. Esp the M models.

JimmyH
07-22-11, 05:01 PM
If you go to the BMW forums they are saying how much the V weighs

I would give them that, except the new M5 is reported to weigh as much as the V.

M5eater
07-22-11, 05:30 PM
I used to want an E39 M5 really bad. But there's a stigma that comes with BMWs I since don't care for.

I almost bought an E39, but the mantiance and aftermarket was the deciding factor in the end. I'm glad I didn't jump into it now.


If you go to the BMW forums they are saying how much the V weighs and the M5 will spank the doors off of the V.
the fact that they have to tell themselves that lets us know we've got em scared at the least :D

tabio42
07-22-11, 05:35 PM
I almost bought an E39, but the mantiance and aftermarket was the deciding factor in the end. I'm glad I didn't jump into it now.

+1
I was scared of having to repair or replace anything after warranty. American parts are so cheap compared to german equivalents. Plus I can work on this car in my garage with confidence. I'd be worried I'm going to screw something up in the Bimmer.

On a side note, anyone with experience putting together an E39 M5 motor should chime in on how long it takes just to get the timing set with the double VANOS. I can't even imagine what the V10 was like, or what this current forced induction motor will be.

smackdownCTSV
07-22-11, 06:19 PM
Really?

JimmyH
07-22-11, 06:30 PM
really.

M5eater
07-22-11, 06:38 PM
Really?

$300/rotor/side(not installed, *just* for an aftermarket oem equivilent rotor) is one of the reasons I didn't buy an E39, and when I started looking @ E60's, it really sunk in that you *have* to have eletronic knowledge and diagnostic equipment that I simply didn't have, or else be prepared to fork over a few thousand for trips to the dealer. I had bearly figured out a Vag-com much less what would have happened if something inside the 7speed SMG had gone wrong. I'm confident in the V, all the mechanical stuff is simple enough I could do it blindfolded compared to what I've had to do with Aud's, and there's simply not that much eletronic stuff in the V, it's still just a rocker-valve V8, with a heavy duty standard automatic trans.

Busabob
07-22-11, 07:00 PM
If you go to the BMW forums they are saying how much the V weighs and the M5 will spank the doors off of the V.

Can you provide a link to that forum? I could use some extra cash!

Busabob
07-22-11, 07:02 PM
$300/rotor/side(not installed, *just* for an aftermarket oem equivilent rotor) is one of the reasons I didn't buy an E39, and when I started looking @ E60's, it really sunk in that you *have* to have eletronic knowledge and diagnostic equipment that I simply didn't have, or else be prepared to fork over a few thousand for trips to the dealer. I had bearly figured out a Vag-com much less what would have happened if something inside the 7speed SMG had gone wrong. I'm confident in the V, all the mechanical stuff is simple enough I could do it blindfolded compared to what I've had to do with Aud's, and there's simply not that much eletronic stuff in the V, it's still just a rocker-valve V8, with a heavy duty standard automatic trans.

And BMW parts are CHEAP compared to MB, Audi or Jag......yikes! Actually I've found BMW parts to be pretty reasonable, but I've never bought M specific parts.

shchow
07-22-11, 07:03 PM
This is true...I wil say this forum isnt as bad (as far as being objective) as BMW forums...they really take it personally that a car can/should be compared to theirs. Esp the M models.

Because IMHO most CTS-V owners have owned European cars, whereas most BMW owners probably have not owned American.
That gives us some more objectivity...
Yes, I will be very interested in seeing the F10 M5...

translux
07-22-11, 07:11 PM
I used to want an E39 M5 really bad. But there's a stigma that comes with BMWs I since don't care for.

Well apparent they have all moved on to Audi's-at least in the UK :)


http://youtu.be/bKpqKMgIdfc

smackdownCTSV
07-22-11, 07:25 PM
Where's the CTS-V on the wall?

M5eater
07-22-11, 07:25 PM
And BMW parts are CHEAP compared to MB, Audi or Jag......yikes! Actually I've found BMW parts to be pretty reasonable, but I've never bought M specific parts.

DLR parts for the S4 and A4 were outrageous, the only way I kept those cars running was through ecstuning and ebay.

translux
07-22-11, 08:33 PM
The boys drove it in their trip across the west. Never has been around the test track that I know of.
When James May AKA Captain Slow falls in love with the V in the hills its one of the reasons I gave it a serious look..

Part 1-BTW why can't we embed video's outside of YouTube?
http://bcove.me/4t1cffyb

Part 2
http://bcove.me/tip1s8qg

M5eater
07-22-11, 08:58 PM
The boys drove it in their trip across the west. Never has been around the test track that I know of.
When James May AKA Captain Slow falls in love with the V in the hills its one of the reasons I gave it a serious look..

Part 1-BTW why can't we embed video's outside of YouTube?
http://bcove.me/4t1cffyb

Part 2
http://bcove.me/tip1s8qg

:P wrong thread.

translux
07-22-11, 11:02 PM
Oh sorry it was on response to "why the V not on the wall?"

smackdownCTSV
07-22-11, 11:31 PM
I like that episode alot since he comes around and really enjoys it. I think I've seen it at least 5 times. Haha.

translux
07-22-11, 11:34 PM
It is a great episode best line "Ferrari are you listening!"

brlong23
07-23-11, 01:03 AM
And soon, the ZL1 Camaro will sport an even better version of the LSA than our Vs for a lot less money!

But the interior will be half what the V has. I am not a fan!

smackdownCTSV
07-23-11, 11:30 AM
Just like the ZR1 to the CTS-V, there will always be a compromise. I'm all for Chevy putting the LSA in the Camaro. Under $50k. With an Auto. Win win! They need it after what the GT500 will become.

marktanner
07-24-11, 01:25 PM
Getting back to the original topic, I think there is no question that the CTS-V is a better value than the new M5. As far as how the new M5 drives, well right now it's all speculation. I still have my 1993 E34 M5, which was the last of the US imported hand-built M cars. In it's day it was truly special, with very little real competition, but quite expensive at $61,000. The market is quite different now, though.

My concerns with the new M5 are that the new 5 series in general has not been well received as driver's cars. In particular, the cars have been criticized for lack of steering feel, and lack of driver involvement in general. This has been a trend of BMWs in general, as each successive generation gets softer and more Mercedes-like, while MB is making their cars more BMW-like. BMW is busy adding gadgets and drivers aids, and removing things like manual transmissions and steering feel. BTW, the only transmission announced for the F10 is the DSG, though there is a rumor that the US may get a true manual again. Of course, the last generation eventually got a manual, which was obviously an after-thought, and hobbled by the traction control that could not be disabled.

The new M5 will undoubtedly be very fast, and will probably break the V's official 'Ring record. Anything less in a newer generation car with such a pedigree would really be considered to be a failure. My fear is that it may not be as fun to drive as the V. It will also be very expensive, to be sure, but will undoubtedly have more expensive interior furnishings, as it should for the price. M cars have not had good resale as of late, with cars losing 30-50% or more in the first year, and that comes to a loss of $30-50K in the first year. That will be an ouch, for sure. From my experience, M specific parts are super expensive as well, which will make future ownership very expensive. So as far as value goes, the V is definitely going to be the better deal. It just might be more fun to drive, but only time will tell.

JFJr
07-24-11, 02:54 PM
The person buying a new M5 rather than a new CTS-V is looking for something more than relative performance "value." It's like someone buying a Rolex Oysterquartz President watch vs. a Casio solar-powered quartz watch that syncs daily with the atomic clock in Colorado; each is accurate but the Casio is more so and costs a tiny, tiny fraction of the Rolex's price. The difference to the Rolex buyer is the value to him of gold jewelry, the precision of the parts and assembly, and reputation and appeal of owning a Rolex. (I'm not knocking Rolex, I own them both.)

It's great that we have a genuine rivalry between BMW and Cadillac in the super-sedan, coupe and wagon market. In the process Cadillac's reputation will increase exponentially, and we car guys will have a ball!

Jud

JimmyH
07-24-11, 07:35 PM
True, I don't think anyone is looking for both value and M.

M5eater
07-24-11, 07:58 PM
True, I don't think anyone is looking for both value and M.
Although I understand what you're saying generally, the V is somewhat in a class of it's own I would say, the Big 3 germans all generally hover around 100grand be it an RS6, M5 or E63 AMG, while the V is priced between 40-60% lower. Then exotics like the panamera, the rapid and the FF these days easily eclipse the above's MSRP. There's a lot more players in the super-car sedan market these days, German super-sedans can only be best described as ''middle of the range'' I would say anymore.