: Can Cadillac and Buick work together?



Lord Cadillac
07-19-11, 01:18 PM
If Buick builds "softer" luxury vehicles and Cadillac builds more sport oriented vehicles - than I think the two can work nicely together. However, Cadillac's SRX and upcoming XTS seem more like Buick's than Cadillacs. I even read somewhere that GM executives feel the SRX would have been better as a Buick.

There's been some talk that maybe Buick could take the lower end of luxury (Lexus, Hyundai) while Cadillac takes the upper end (Mercedes, BMW, Audi). Could this work? It would require Buick to stop at the LaCrosse (same platform as the Cadillac XTS) and Cadillac to start with the midsize segment (old STS/upcoming CTS).

It's too late now with the Cadillac ATS on it's way - but think about this for a moment. Brands like BMW can offer a full range of cars (1-Series all the way up to 7-Series) because they're a single brand. Things are different at GM, however. BMW doesn't have a Buick. GM does. So how do they separate these two luxury brands without stepping on toes?

77CDV
07-19-11, 02:40 PM
This has been an occasional problem for GM for decades. Top end Buicks have been just as nice as, if not nicer than, low end Cadillacs, but still priced less. We're still stuck on the same page: GM needs to define each division's mission and hold to it. Their failure to do this in the past resulted in a redundant Oldsmobile and a muddled Pontiac. You'll note that both divisions are now gone. You'd think it would be simple now with only three divisions left (I don't count GMC). Chevy covers the low end, Buick takes the middle ground, and Cadillac goes for the high end. If Buick can produce cars that compete with the Avalons, ESs, and Genesises of the world, Cadillac can be free to take on the 5/7s, LSs, and E/Ss. But, doing so requires GM to do some serious product development and refinement, which means investing lots of money and doing it right without compromise. I have little faith in GM to make that committment.

Lord Cadillac
07-19-11, 03:58 PM
The Cadillac Fleetwood and Buick Roadmaster immediately come to mind - but the Fleetwood wasn't exactly a low-end Cadillac.


This has been an occasional problem for GM for decades. Top end Buicks have been just as nice as, if not nicer than, low end Cadillacs, but still priced less. We're still stuck on the same page: GM needs to define each division's mission and hold to it. Their failure to do this in the past resulted in a redundant Oldsmobile and a muddled Pontiac. You'll note that both divisions are now gone. You'd think it would be simple now with only three divisions left (I don't count GMC). Chevy covers the low end, Buick takes the middle ground, and Cadillac goes for the high end. If Buick can produce cars that compete with the Avalons, ESs, and Genesises of the world, Cadillac can be free to take on the 5/7s, LSs, and E/Ss. But, doing so requires GM to do some serious product development and refinement, which means investing lots of money and doing it right without compromise. I have little faith in GM to make that committment.

orconn
07-19-11, 04:31 PM
Buick seems to have had some success lately producing attractive cars that fall within the realm of current auto fashion. Just nicer versions of what is already out there, ad nauseaum, in the marketplace. With a few notable, and successful, exceptions Buicks have been the choice of conformist who don't want to stand out from the crowd.

Up until the mid 1950's Cadillac style and desirability was geared toward the tastes of an established wealthy class. Adventurous enough to show some novelty while maintaining conservative good taste that set their owners apart, but didn't glaringly rub the noses of those of lower economic and social status with the disparity of Cadillac owner's position in society. All that changed in the mid-1950's, the buying power of the G.I. bill beneficiaries as their rise through the ranks of engineering, law and medicine and burgeoning fields like advertising, fashion design, merchandising and many areas of sales meant a whole new markets for Cadillacs had opened up. With their ear to the trends of the marketplace GM stepped up the design of all their cars and Cadillac included. With the 1956 models, began to design and embellish their cars to become more attractive to this "new rich" class. The introduction of the '57 cars from all the U.S. makers marked then end of the traditional class segmentation of American makes and designs that included many of the luxuries for higher end models becoming part of cars aimed pricewise and stylewise at the newly emerging affluent middle class. The 1957 Cadillac was a real departure from the conservative style tradition favored by their usual buyers and with the '58's and '59's Cadillac had devoted their entire line to attracting buyers from a "newly arrived" group of buyers, leaving Cadillac's traditional buyers to fend for themselves. Interestly it was at this time that cars from Mercedes, both the 220S sedans and 190SL roadsters starting to show up at church parking lots and country clubs on both Coasts.

All the above is to say that today Cadillac needs to develop a distinctive style theme that can capture the desires of a small moneyed class at the upper 2% of the economic scale. The "Art and Science" theme was a start and may have been successful with entry level CTS buyers, but obviously failed to attract the more mature buyers that the STS was meant to lure into a Cadillac showroom. In essence Cadillac needs to come up with a design for both a luxury sedan and a personal luxury sedan and or coupe that is attractive as the 4th an 5th generation Sevilles and the last of the Eldorados. These models revitalized interest of luxury car buyers in the 1990's, an interest that wained to near zero in the first decade of the new century.

That being said, style alone will not be enough to keep Cadillac buyers coming back for repeat purchases. As one who returned periodically to Cadillac over four decades, I can say that style brought me back, but failures of quality sent elsewhere when a new car was in order. In those interim years Cadillac cars just did not possess the style to overcome their quality deficiencies or any other qualities to keep me going with their equally flawed competition from Mercedes and Jaguar.

I hope, with the Chinese market seeming to draw more from present Cadillac designers, that we can look forward to a Cadillac line that treats the "luxury" car buyer with the respect his dollar deserves. Let Buick supply the good but not "first class" cars to those not yet economically able to enjoy a top level motor car!

johnny kannapo
07-19-11, 07:43 PM
This car was slated to be a Cadillac and GM decided to market it as a Buick in 63'.
The Riviera has no Buick emblems or other identifiers on it anywhere on the body & remained that way for several years.
I do believe all other Buicks had fender ports or 3 hole or 4 holer decorative chrome.
http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/uploads/4/4a/63riviera.jpg

Lord Cadillac
07-19-11, 07:56 PM
The Riviera was supposed to be a Cadillac while they also had the Eldorado?

Otherwise, I'd love to see Buick sell nice luxury cars and Cadillac sell premium luxury cars, as Orconn stated above...

johnny kannapo
07-19-11, 08:09 PM
It was envisioned as a Cadillac & designed as a direct competition for the Thunderbird. Cadillac didn't want it or need it.

Buick has always built fine luxury cars, that will never change. It just wasn't a "Cadillac".

Back then the RWD Eldorado was a was no different than an Deville Just more candy on it. The FWD Eldo/Toro made a big statement A new begining. Most early Buick Riviera enthusiasts will know this about the beginning era Riviera. I use to own this one for 11 years.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz183/billytheshoe/scan0021.jpg

orconn
07-19-11, 08:40 PM
I have always been an ardent admirer of the mid-sixties Riviera. This was the car I was thinking of when I mentioned "a few notable exceptions" in relation to Buick. However, truth be told, the Riviera package did not include interior materials that could be considered equal to those of a Cadillac (at least Coupe de Ville) of that era. The depth of the chrome plating was also less than on Cadillacs, and while assembly quality of both brands was not particularly notable, Cadillac still seamed to deliver better quality and seemed to hold up better over the years. Did the first couple of years of the Riv offer real leather seating inserts? It seems that the ones I road in in had vinyl throughout the interior. I could be wrong but that is what I remember. But without a doubt the Rivera was a true "classic" of the sixties!

The quality of the 1967 Eldorado was head and shoulders over that of the Olds Toronado of the period. I am very familiar with both cars, my family owner several of each bought new in the sixties, and I can say that the materials used in the Eldo's was several grades above the materials put into the highest grade Toro. I am a big fan of the sixties Toros, but for build quality they were several grades down from the Eldorado's specifications. Both cars were magnificent, as were the rear wheel drive Rivs of the those years. It is amazing that GM could gather the gumption to bring these two cars out at the time. Both cars set new standards for American car handling at the time. I did many miles, out West, in both Eldos and Toros and there wasn't a better road car for American driving conditions available from any manufacturer (Mercedes were well made , overpriced,and underpowered cars that were tedious to drive under American conditions, Jaguar didn't have a sedan that was worth a damn in the 1960's until the XJ^ came out in 1968).

johnny kannapo
07-19-11, 09:11 PM
The project XP-715 was going to be called the "La Salle II", Cadillac rejected it.
It's interesting that Buick produces a LaSalle now

http://ateupwithmotor.com/luxury-and-personal-luxury-cars/185-1967-cadillac-eldorado.html

Aron9000
07-20-11, 02:41 AM
Let Buick sell "boring" and Cadillac sell "sporty". Buick should be a conserative brand that is well made, quiet, spacious, luxurious, and gets good miles per gallon. Buick shouldn't charge any more than $50k for its most decked out model with every option(which is right where a fully loaded Enclave sells for now).

Cadillac should sell sharp styling, sporty handling, and ultimate luxury with the best fit and finish. Cadillac really should start their prices around 40k or so for a base CTS/ATS that is "well equipped". I can't stand how base the current CTS is, leatherette, ugly 16" wheels, black plastic where the optional fog lights go, no wood trim on the interior, etc.

Lord Cadillac
07-20-11, 12:51 PM
I can't stand how base the current CTS is, leatherette, ugly 16" wheels, black plastic where the optional fog lights go, no wood trim on the interior, etc.

If I were Cadillac, I'd feel ashamed to put my badge on that. Luxury is not about value... Or at least it shouldn't be.

hueterm
07-20-11, 07:34 PM
The only options Cadillacs should have are aesthetic and powertrain ones (since GM is such a whore to the 6 cylinder). Wood color choices vs stainless/carbon fiber; leathers; wheels; etc. V6, V8, Hybrid; Auto or manual...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-20-11, 08:55 PM
Buick should be chasing the soft/quiet luxury made popular by Lexus and Cadillac should be chasing the performance luxury made popular by BMW and to a lesser extent Audi and Infiniti.

Playdrv4me
07-21-11, 02:58 AM
If I were Cadillac, I'd feel ashamed to put my badge on that. Luxury is not about value... Or at least it shouldn't be.

In fairness, the base 3 series has always been quite the ugly duckling too. 16 inch wheels, vinyl upholstery, crank and lever operated seat positioners, and in the e46 there were even KNOB climate controls and wheel covers at the bottom of the price scale. Thing is, the bigger these cars get, the worse they look in low optioned trims as more and more plastic dominates the exterior (the fog lamp breakouts Aron mentioned).

Lord Cadillac
07-21-11, 10:43 AM
In fairness, the base 3 series has always been quite the ugly duckling too.

But I'm sure you agree they have nothing to lose... Cadillac is the one coming from behind and should be dressed for success on every occasion.

93DevilleUSMC
07-21-11, 10:52 AM
But I'm sure you agree they have nothing to lose... Cadillac is the one coming from behind and should be dressed for success on every occasion.

Exactly. BMW is the "it" brand and has a lot of people who associate it with prestige and will forgive a few flaws. Cadillac, on the other hand, is making a comeback and has quite a few detractors in automotive media and in everyday America. Cadillac HAS TO BE superior to BMW to gain the top status it once had.

Lord Cadillac
07-21-11, 11:32 AM
Especially when it comes to the 3-Series. You can't go for a drive anywhere and not see one. They're all over the place. BMW sells them like crazy. Cadillac needs to challenge this by having every car they make, "Wow! Nice Caddy!". They're not going to grab people back from BMW with cars that look "just as good" at the bottom of the barrel where most people buy.


Exactly. BMW is the "it" brand and has a lot of people who associate it with prestige and will forgive a few flaws. Cadillac, on the other hand, is making a comeback and has quite a few detractors in automotive media and in everyday America. Cadillac HAS TO BE superior to BMW to gain the top status it once had.

gary88
07-21-11, 01:43 PM
In fairness, the base 3 series has always been quite the ugly duckling too. 16 inch wheels, vinyl upholstery, crank and lever operated seat positioners, and in the e46 there were even KNOB climate controls and wheel covers at the bottom of the price scale. Thing is, the bigger these cars get, the worse they look in low optioned trims as more and more plastic dominates the exterior (the fog lamp breakouts Aron mentioned).

The thing is in the rest of the world BMWs (and MBs/Audis) are just normal cars, most of them being four cylinder diesels with cloth interiors and barely any options. They only export the most appealing models to the US to keep the "premium brand" image here.

orconn
07-21-11, 03:58 PM
In fairness, the base 3 series has always been quite the ugly duckling too. 16 inch wheels, vinyl upholstery, crank and lever operated seat positioners, and in the e46 there were even KNOB climate controls and wheel covers at the bottom of the price scale. Thing is, the bigger these cars get, the worse they look in low optioned trims as more and more plastic dominates the exterior (the fog lamp breakouts Aron mentioned).

To my way of thinking, all that "luxury" crap that you bemoan being missing from a "Base" BMW has nothing to do with what a "3" series BMW is about anyway. If all those accessories are really important to you, you would be better off choosing another car. The Japanese, from what I am told, really do a good job with luxury accessories, the fact that their cars are"uninvolving" (some would say boring) to drive, well you pays yo' money and getsl what you get!

orconn
07-21-11, 04:14 PM
The thing is in the rest of the world BMWs (and MBs/Audis) are just normal cars, most of them being four cylinder diesels with cloth interiors and barely any options. They only export the most appealing models to the US to keep the "premium brand" image here.

A very valid point, too often over looked by American consumers. Some folks screamed bloody murder when Mercedes imported the 230 Kompressor Sport Coupe and only charged $24,950. for it. This was for a car that had all of Mercedes much vaulted technical features, but lacked the leather and power six way seats, sunroof and super audio system, not too mention metallic paint (all of which could be had for a royally outrageous additional $8500.). This car, even by Mercedes admission handled better than all but their "super performance cars and yet was rejected by the American buying public as "not a Mercedes>" While it was certainly a Mercedes in all but superficial trim and accessories, it also didn't cost enough to satisfy "petit bourgeois" buyer who was looking for "prestige" instead of value!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-22-11, 01:10 AM
To my way of thinking, all that "luxury" crap that you bemoan being missing from a "Base" BMW has nothing to do with what a "3" series BMW is about anyway. If all those accessories are really important to you, you would be better off choosing another car. The Japanese, from what I am told, really do a good job with luxury accessories, the fact that their cars are"uninvolving" (some would say boring) to drive, well you pays yo' money and getsl what you get!

I've driven a few 3 Series and it's direct competitor, the G35/G37, and the 3 Series IMO is much more fun to drive. The Infiniti may have a lot more features at a lower price, but it lacks the BMW's charisma and uniqueness. The Infiniti, while nice, shares a lot of parts and trim pieces with Nissans, and the BMW's are totally unique.

Lord Cadillac
07-22-11, 02:06 PM
I like the performance of the 335i and M3 but I prefer the appearance, inside and out, of the Infiniti G35/G37...


I've driven a few 3 Series and it's direct competitor, the G35/G37, and the 3 Series IMO is much more fun to drive. The Infiniti may have a lot more features at a lower price, but it lacks the BMW's charisma and uniqueness. The Infiniti, while nice, shares a lot of parts and trim pieces with Nissans, and the BMW's are totally unique.

SDCaddyLacky
07-23-11, 05:20 AM
You guys need to drive an Infiniti M35. Those are super nice cars, and the optioned Bose sound system is freaking amazing! My neighbors friend owns an 09, and it's very nice car. It rides smooth and it's extremely quiet.

Buick could be a Lexus chaser, I wouldn't mind GM actually pushing for a LS460 competitor from Buick, while Cadillac goes after sporty BMW and Mercedes. At the same time when you think of Cadillac, you don't associate it being sporty nor European. So personally I still think Caddy should build a full size flagship, if not, then let Buick do it. It makes more sense today for Buick to be like Lexus, it's probably attracting more seniors than Cadillac is doing at the moment, and I bet Cadillac isn't too concerned or even cares about the senior buyer anymore since it's trying to attract more young people.

Cadillac is done dealing with the elderly, you can tell by what they are building.

Jesda
07-23-11, 11:59 PM
But I'm sure you agree they have nothing to lose... Cadillac is the one coming from behind and should be dressed for success on every occasion.

BMW has everything to lose, and cars like the Lexus IS, CTS, and G35/G37 have put downward pressure on BMW's premium price.

brandondeleo
07-24-11, 05:07 AM
I saw a BMW Z4 hardtop coupe the other day. That thing is absolutely hideous. :rant2:

Jesda
07-24-11, 05:54 AM
The current Infiniti Ms are great performers with beautiful interiors. They're homely looking though, like a guppy fish lost in a bowl of water. Otherwise, they're excellent.

93DevilleUSMC
07-24-11, 07:45 AM
The current Infiniti Ms are great performers with beautiful interiors. They're homely looking though, like a guppy fish lost in a bowl of water. Otherwise, they're excellent.

THAT'S the angle Cadillac is going for and should be going for: it should be an excellent performance brand with a sharp style and luxurious interior that beats all of the strange "bubble" and "fish" designs the competition is pushing these days.

brandondeleo
07-24-11, 07:51 AM
Infinity is very good at producing awesome vehicles that look like shit. Here is one of the best examples. Lol
http://www.modernoffroader.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/2011-Infiniti-QX56-5.jpg
The G series is the only decent looking Infinity, IMO, and the G37 shifts very hard, rides stiffer than it can get away with, and is tiny inside. Other than that, great car, good looking, fast, technologically advanced, etc.

Stingroo
07-24-11, 09:57 AM
OH GOD NOT THE QX56!


Why automotive gods, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!

:ack:

brandondeleo
07-24-11, 10:11 AM
QX56=A bad Edvard Munch painting of a rhinoceros on a shroom trip.

93DevilleUSMC
07-24-11, 10:35 AM
Infinity is very good at producing awesome vehicles that look like shit. Here is one of the best examples. Lol
http://www.modernoffroader.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/2011-Infiniti-QX56-5.jpg
The G series is the only decent looking Infinity, IMO, and the G37 shifts very hard, rides stiffer than it can get away with, and is tiny inside. Other than that, great car, good looking, fast, technologically advanced, etc.

It looks like a drunken, beached, dying walrus. The Escalade is a FAR superior aesthetic choice.

thebigjimsho
08-02-11, 05:08 PM
But I'm sure you agree they have nothing to lose... Cadillac is the one coming from behind and should be dressed for success on every occasion.WHAT???

Then you shut off a HUGE aspect of the market, the up and coming yuppie. I can't tell you how many base 3 series and C classes heading into Boston and the suburbs every day. Young 20 somethings a few years out of college and still renting. Maybe they need a nicer car for clients. Maybe they just want to look the part.

If Cadillac can't get a bargain basement CTS for these people, they lose money in the long run when these youngsters can afford CTS-Vs and Escalades for their families down the road(and, hopefully, XTSs and flagships).

Aron9000
08-03-11, 04:16 AM
^Jim, I don't think it would be a dreadful sin for Cadillac to just simply up the price on the base CTS by about $1500-2000 and include such things as leather, fog lights, wood grain, and decent looking wheels as standard. Just saying the "base base base" CTS looks dreadful, even compared to a base 3 series or C class. At least those get decent looking wheels on the base models.

IMO I really like Acura's pricing/option model. Just include most everything most people would want in the base package, sunroof, leather, woodgrain, the big motor, flashy wheels, etc. Just have one option package that gets you navigation and a few other goodies. Acura has always been great about giving you lots of gizmos and doodads standard.

brandondeleo
08-03-11, 04:24 AM
That sounds like a good idea, as a matter of fact.^^

Stingroo
08-03-11, 09:01 AM
Too bad all of Acura's vehicles are hideous blobs of crap. :lol:

bill57
08-03-11, 12:12 PM
THAT'S the angle Cadillac is going for and should be going for: it should be an excellent performance brand with a sharp style and luxurious interior that beats all of the strange "bubble" and "fish" designs the competition is pushing these days.

Yes, not "bubble and fish". But why "performance" and not simply luxury? A luxury sedan should be very smooth and quiet. The magna ride suspension belongs in a Corvette - not in a full size luxury sedan like a Cadillac or a Buick, IMHO. If Cadillac wants to ignore the over-sixty crowd, they are ignoring the largest growing segment of US population: the aging "baby boomers".

thebigjimsho
08-03-11, 01:23 PM
^Jim, I don't think it would be a dreadful sin for Cadillac to just simply up the price on the base CTS by about $1500-2000 and include such things as leather, fog lights, wood grain, and decent looking wheels as standard. Just saying the "base base base" CTS looks dreadful, even compared to a base 3 series or C class. At least those get decent looking wheels on the base models.

IMO I really like Acura's pricing/option model. Just include most everything most people would want in the base package, sunroof, leather, woodgrain, the big motor, flashy wheels, etc. Just have one option package that gets you navigation and a few other goodies. Acura has always been great about giving you lots of gizmos and doodads standard.I've rented a few CTSs. Some were base base models while I had one in FL with 19" wheels and sport suspension. I don't find the base engine and suspension and wheels and seating to be bad. When I was up at the lake, a rich CT teenager showed up in his base 3 series. That Bimmer's stock wheels were more hideous than the base CTS wheels. The base CTS is still a good car on a great platform. You may think $2G is no big deal. It can be for those looking for financing or on a very tight budget. BMW does it as does Mercedes and now Infiniti. Everyone should stop bitching about Cadillac.

As for Acura, when you offer glorified Hondas on FWD platforms, you can keep your price low. Is it working for them? No. Acura is quickly becoming irrelevant...

thebigjimsho
08-03-11, 01:33 PM
Yes, not "bubble and fish". But why "performance" and not simply luxury? A luxury sedan should be very smooth and quiet. The magna ride suspension belongs in a Corvette - not in a full size luxury sedan like a Cadillac or a Buick, IMHO. If Cadillac wants to ignore the over-sixty crowd, they are ignoring the largest growing segment of US population: the aging "baby boomers".Have you been watching? Baby boomers are not the previous generation. Those big barges were made too long and Cadillac lost that age group. They're not ignoring the 60+ crowd, they're embracing them.

My father is about to retire and he's losing his Sienna work vehicle. He's taking over my mom's Subaru Legacy and my mom wants a Mini Cooper. His friend has a 911 and a Pontiac Vibe. Another friend just got a Jeep Cherokee. I look at the over 60 crowd in my church and I see an Audi Q5, BMW 535i, Toyota Venza, Scion Xb, Honda Accord. In fact, the one guy who has a DTS likes my CTS-V a lot. More than my Town Car L.

Sure, there are a few who'd like a floaty, unengaging land barge but that group is miniscule to the previous gen who have died off...

bill57
08-03-11, 02:31 PM
You obviously belong to a "progressive" congregation. Scion Xb?

orconn
08-03-11, 02:57 PM
^^^ Obviously you are out of touch! The Boomers are the ones that made the foreign imports what they are today in the U.S. The preference for high end European sedans started among the elites of the East and West Coasts, but by the mid 1980's Mercedes and BMW, certain extent Volvo, had gained major acceptance as the cars to have, among affluent "Boomers." The eighties was the decade when Cadillac could only hold on to the aging WWII generation. Cadillac won back some of those that had strayed with the Seville STS in the 1990's but it still has a long way to go to become the leading "luxury" marque among Boomers.

Stingroo
08-03-11, 03:27 PM
Yeah, a LOT of old people buy Scions. I think it surprised the crap out of Toyota too.

"Hey, check us out, we're for young people."
*grandpa walks in*
"That is the coolest toaster I have ever seen! I'll take it!"

thebigjimsho
08-03-11, 07:13 PM
You obviously belong to a "progressive" congregation. Scion Xb?It is what it is...

Aron9000
08-03-11, 07:36 PM
Yeah, a LOT of old people buy Scions. I think it surprised the crap out of Toyota too.

"Hey, check us out, we're for young people."
*grandpa walks in*
"That is the coolest toaster I have ever seen! I'll take it!"

I think Toyota was really delusional about young 20 somethings buying Scions. Most young 20 somethings are in college and broke. By the time they get a decent job at age 25-30 and look for a new car, they don't want something that reminds them of that 97 Honda Civic they're getting rid of.

And you can always sell a young man's car to an old man btw. Look at who buys new Camaros, Mustangs, Vettes, etc

Stingroo
08-03-11, 07:42 PM
See I don't agree. Those are sports cars. EVERYBODY likes sports cars, regardless of age.

Not everyone likes rolling toasters.

thebigjimsho
08-03-11, 07:49 PM
I think Toyota was really delusional about young 20 somethings buying Scions. Most young 20 somethings are in college and broke. By the time they get a decent job at age 25-30 and look for a new car, they don't want something that reminds them of that 97 Honda Civic they're getting rid of.

And you can always sell a young man's car to an old man btw. Look at who buys new Camaros, Mustangs, Vettes, etcAnd that's why Cadillac needs to make base CTSs...

gary88
08-03-11, 07:50 PM
EVERYBODY likes sports cars, regardless of age.

This statement is false.

orconn
08-03-11, 08:26 PM
I don't quite get the vociferous objection to an "entry level" CTS being decontented so that it can be sold for a lower "entry level" price. There are other reasons for some people preferring a car that they can have without all the extraneous accessories that others demand in the so called "luxury" car.

I, for one prefer a car that is not so kitted out that as soon as the warranty runs out I am going to be looking at considerable expense to repair and keep it all running. Living in a a moderate climate I really don't need heated seats (especially ones that quit working after a few years), expensive in-dash navigation systems are unnecessary appliance for me because I have a portable that gets the jobs done in several vehicles. I like six way adjustable seats, but power ones are unnecessary as nobody drives my car but me. Leather is a nice add on but if they are going to charge me $1500 (like they do at Mercedes for a C class) I'll settle for every bit as long wearing (if not longer wearing) Benz -Tex.

The reason I want to buy a car like a CTS, C Class, or 3 series BMW is for the way they drive, not for all the gizmo's that can be tacked onto the basic car so they can justifying outrageous price for the thing .... and increase the upkeep on the car as the years go by. I realize that some buyers want nd demand all the accessories, and they are welcome to them, but I am glad some manufacturers still allow you to by a more basic model!

bill57
08-03-11, 10:30 PM
"The reason I want to buy a car like a CTS, C Class, or 3 series BMW is for the way they drive"

Just asking to gain an understanding: what do you like about the way those three cars drive?

Stingroo
08-03-11, 10:55 PM
That's three cars....

johnny kannapo
08-04-11, 07:36 PM
Opel/Buick GS 2.0L 4 banger w/255hp 400 ft pounds of TQ. Did I read that correct?
http://autoya.info/sport_buick_regal_gs_alternative_opel_opc_usa/

http://autoya.info/img/content_cache/12615/buick_regal_2010.jpg

Rodya234
08-04-11, 08:58 PM
400 ft pounds of TQ. Did I read that correct?

The article said 400 newton meters of torque, which is 295lb-ft.

thebigjimsho
08-05-11, 01:14 AM
I love Fig Newtons.

gary88
08-05-11, 01:31 AM
http://www.newton.ac.uk/newton.jpg

http://www.educatorsoutlet.com/images//products/110326DD.jpg

thebigjimsho
08-05-11, 02:00 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Foot-outside.jpg


http://loveyourmoney.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/making_money_online.jpg

Stingroo
08-05-11, 02:09 AM
Hahahaha foot pounds.

Lulz were had.

mberisha
08-05-11, 06:02 AM
The thing is in the rest of the world BMWs (and MBs/Audis) are just normal cars, most of them being four cylinder diesels with cloth interiors and barely any options. They only export the most appealing models to the US to keep the "premium brand" image here.

Well said....base-line BMWs are a "dime-a-dozen" in Europe....there are only a handful of the premium ones on the road....

gdwriter
08-05-11, 03:12 PM
I like Newton Gulati:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/283592_547798625670_66900850_31462604_970328_n.jpg

johnny kannapo
08-05-11, 03:19 PM
Is anyone aware of the "Coco" edition Cadillac?
There is some notoriety attached.

http://critdick.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/coco-cadillac.jpg

orconn
08-05-11, 05:58 PM
Is anyone aware of the "Coco" edition Cadillac?
There is some notoriety attached.

http://critdick.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/coco-cadillac.jpg

Guess she's holding two twenties from her last trick?

EChas3
08-07-11, 04:46 PM
^^^ before inflation...

picah65
08-07-11, 09:00 PM
As I have both a Cadillac Allante and a Buick Reatta - I think they already work together !! (in my garage !!)

thebigjimsho
08-08-11, 03:49 PM
braggart.

brandondeleo
08-08-11, 03:50 PM
Lol.

mberisha
08-08-11, 05:12 PM
braggart.



http://img003.picture2life.net/13003129/IMG_0141_desktop5_medium.jpg

brandondeleo
08-08-11, 05:13 PM
Touche', my friend.

orconn
08-08-11, 05:21 PM
http://img003.picture2life.net/13003129/IMG_0141_desktop5_medium.jpg

"German girls best, yah?"

mberisha
08-08-11, 06:34 PM
"German girls best, yah?"

Nope....not even close....a good 'ole Midwestern girl from central Illinois!

BTW....German chicks all smell like a pack of half-burnt Marlboro Reds.......

JimmyH
08-08-11, 06:56 PM
WHAT???

Then you shut off a HUGE aspect of the market, the up and coming yuppie. I can't tell you how many base 3 series and C classes heading into Boston and the suburbs every day. Young 20 somethings a few years out of college and still renting. Maybe they need a nicer car for clients. Maybe they just want to look the part.

If Cadillac can't get a bargain basement CTS for these people, they lose money in the long run when these youngsters can afford CTS-Vs and Escalades for their families down the road(and, hopefully, XTSs and flagships).

:true:

except when the ATS hits the market, Cadillac no longer needs a low-rent CTS

brandondeleo
08-08-11, 09:02 PM
"The West coast has the sunshine, and the girls are oh so tan" :sneaky:

thebigjimsho
08-08-11, 09:44 PM
They didn't have enough room to say: 'Except for those ghost chicks in the Pacific NW"...

brandondeleo
08-08-11, 09:49 PM
That's just the West side of the Cascades. Lol

brandondeleo
08-08-11, 09:50 PM
At least the German girls shave. Lol. I would hate to visit France...

orconn
08-09-11, 12:08 AM
Where do you guys get your information on the hygene habits of the women of the world? From personal experience French women shave as do most European women. The Germans also were known for their unshaven limbs and armpits back in the days following World War II like the French, but the custom of shaving pretty much became universal by the 1960's.

brandondeleo
08-09-11, 12:12 AM
It's just a stereotype. Lol.

orconn
08-09-11, 12:27 AM
It's just a stereotype. Lol.

Like most stereotypes very outdated! Why I remember when folks from Cucamunga were all hayseeds and country bumpkins!

brandondeleo
08-09-11, 12:30 AM
Rancho is up to around a quarter million, now. Northern Rancho is very upscale and gorgeous, while southern is a lot like more... Pomona. Ick.

ben.gators
08-09-11, 12:38 AM
What I love about CF is no matter what the topic of the thread is, discussions will finally end up in public hair! :D

JimmyH
08-09-11, 12:40 AM
What I love about CF is no matter what the topic of the thread is, discussions will finally end up in public hair! :D

public hair is very public

brandondeleo
08-09-11, 12:40 AM
My search for a newer STS or ETC turned into a conversation about how people make Fleetwoods ghetto. Lol

JimmyH
08-09-11, 12:41 AM
that's what we call pillow talk baby

ben.gators
08-09-11, 12:41 AM
Where do you guys get your information on the hygene habits of the women of the world? From personal experience French women shave as do most European women. The Germans also were known for their unshaven limbs and armpits back in the days following World War II like the French, but the custom of shaving pretty much became universal by the 1960's.

Guys, listen to this man! He knows what he is speaking about...
Orconn, you could add phrases like "Been there, done that" to your post... :D

Aron9000
08-09-11, 02:43 AM
Guys, listen to this man! He knows what he is speaking about...
Orconn, you could add phrases like "Been there, done that" to your post... :D

Or use this smilie:wisdom:

(kidding):duck:

mberisha
08-09-11, 03:46 AM
At least the German girls shave. Lol. I would hate to visit France...

Who told you that?

mberisha
08-09-11, 03:48 AM
Guys, listen to this man! He knows what he is speaking about...
Orconn, you could add phrases like "Been there, done that" to your post... :D

Or...."...I know cuz I Wikipedia'd it!...."

brandondeleo
08-09-11, 04:03 PM
Hey, Wikipedia has shown to be more accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. :duck:

mberisha
08-10-11, 03:19 AM
Hey, Wikipedia has shown to be more accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. :duck:

What's an "Encyclopedia"?

ben.gators
08-10-11, 04:00 AM
Who told you that?
So you say they don't?:leaving:

mberisha
08-10-11, 04:55 AM
So you say they don't?:leaving:

That is a fact......

thebigjimsho
08-10-11, 11:54 AM
Please, most of the guys here would take anything, hairy pits or nay...

gdwriter
08-10-11, 02:48 PM
Or use this smilie:wisdom:Hmmm...that makes me think more of Koz. :lol:

orconn
08-10-11, 03:05 PM
Or use this smilie:wisdom:

(kidding):duck:

Not a bad likeness!

mberisha
08-11-11, 02:21 PM
braggart.



Choices.....argghhhhh.......




http://img003.picture2life.net/13031661/IMG_0676_document-small_medium.jpg

thebigjimsho
08-11-11, 03:08 PM
V is faster, has more interior room and looks better. No choice thurr.

thebigjimsho
08-14-11, 11:23 PM
Just in case you forgot...






























http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mPqycQ0tQ&feature=BFa&list=FLNnIHtJNpnm8 &index=7