: Semi-Emergency - Water Pump, 85 FWB HT4100



TheRedSharon
07-13-11, 10:54 PM
Well, once again, I'm bloody stumped. I'm trying to get the water pump off my car, since it all but gave out Monday night (luckily for me, I was running around town. Unluckily, I was planning on going out of town on Tuesday). So far, I think I'm doing pretty good - I got the fan and the fan clutch off all by myself! Getting the belt that runs from the water pump hub to the alternator off was easy enough too. There's one more belt to be removed behind it, but now I'm confused. From what I can see, the (whatever it is that's right under the alternator) should move downward enough for me to get the second belt off, but the problem is I haven't got the foggiest idea how to remove the tensioner bolt. Why? The bolt is apparently on the rear side of the part, where there is absolutely no room for me to get my fingers at. Any ideas?
I'm headed back out now to take and upload pictures.
-Red Sharon

EDIT:
I forgot to mention why this is a semi-emergency - I was going out of town to see a girl. Having my car back by this weekend would be a major plus.
Pics attached. Sorry, night kinda attacked and the whole city is under siege.
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csbuckn
07-13-11, 11:31 PM
Smog pump. So you cant reach the bolt with an open end wrench? Cant you just pull the pulley off the waterpump since there should be no bolts holding it on? Even with the belt still on. Does the belt wrap around the water pump and the crank pulley.

TheRedSharon
07-13-11, 11:45 PM
I did remove the bolts holding the pulley on and I tried tugging on it, but I really don't wanna break anything. Honestly, I'm not above cutting the belt off, since it needs to be replaced anyway (some of the rubber grips have gone AWOL). The bolt is in a really awkward position. Its so awkward that I'm having trouble getting just two fingers behind the smog pump. I (personally) believe it would have made more sense to put the bolt on the front for easy access but nobody ever said working on a car was easy....
Oh, and yes, the belt does wrap around the water pump pulley.

csbuckn
07-14-11, 12:07 AM
Worse case scenario, you cut the belt and put a new one on when you put the water pump pulley back on. I think you should be able to get the pulley off with a little more effort.

TheRedSharon
07-14-11, 12:35 AM
Okay, thanks. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to mess up the engine.

TheRedSharon
07-14-11, 01:04 AM
Actually though, how would i get the new belt on? Wouldn't I need to loosen the tensioner a little?

Robin Banx
07-14-11, 07:04 PM
There are some more problems which you are likely run into as you get further in. If you are using a reman pump, make sure that the casting is not badly pitted as it will leak coolant for sure from pitted sealing surfaces.
The top rad hose connects to the thermostat housing which is separate from the engine and from the pump. The housing is sealed (supposedly) by two "O" rings which if are incorrect in size or not properly installed, will leak as well.
I had a reliable repair shop replace the pump on my 83 4100 last year. I supplied a reman pump for the job which they rejected as being a prime candidate for above-mentioned leaks. I got them a new pump which they carefully installed. It was leaking slightly when I picked the car up. They said drive it for a day or so and bring it back. Still leaking, they went over everything, pronounced it dry and gave it back to me. A day or so later it began weeping coolant again. They had another try at resealing everything. I took the car off the road for the winter and put it on blocks in my garage. All seemed ok until I noticed small drops of coolant on the front suspension crossmember and small stains of coolant on the garage floor. I am not out of the woods yet.
The car will be going back to the shop in the next few weeks for yet another try to seal the cooling system. A side issue is that there has never been any of GM's hokey leak sealing tablets used in my car nor will there ever be. I strongly disagree with that programme as it is nothing more than an ass-saving measure fobbed off on the customers by GM as a cure for their initial design bungling.
Good luck with your 85. I will be watching this thread with much interest.

Cheers.........R.

TheRedSharon
07-20-11, 01:40 AM
I'm actually using a brand new water pump Robin, though I had the option to buy a reman. The idiots first brought me a flat one and tried to pass it off as the right one.
I'll watch out for the thermostat. Do I need to take it off? And if you have any idea on how to get at the bolts hidden behind the pulleys, let me know.
I am terribly sorry to hear about your car. You make me kinda nervous now, 'cause I'm just a kid with too little money to give to idiot mechanics, and if the pro's are stumped, I probably won't do much better. And as for the tablets, I agree with you. It could have been a good engine, if they'd just taken their time. One thing I'm thinking about is if (hopefully not) this one goes beyond repair, swapping out for a 368. Maybe by then, someone will have figured out a way to make the 8-6-4 option work. But I digress...

jzchen
07-20-11, 04:45 AM
I've been through quite a few water pumps before I finally noticed the label on the front of the engine bay about the GM tablet additive. After using them, which I would use a whole packet of 6, I didn't have any issue about frequently broken water pumps. (If people are calling the tablets a cure for the problem of leaking/breaking water pumps, then I agree that it cured the issue.) Taking out the water pump without pulling the engine out is a pain. I did it once with my uncle. There are many bolts on it, you can see the many holes in your new one to figure out where the ones in the one on the engine are. (I think there were 13?) One thing my uncle did was use a jack to push the engine up a bit to be able to get one (or a few,) of the bolt(s) out. They get very close to a part of the body. (I did this job only once. Paid a shop the rest of the time.) What I'm curious about is that you say there are belts. There is only one serpentine belt on mine. Are you sure it's a HT4100, or am I the one that doesn't know about variants... Anyways there's a 1/2 inch square hole in the belt tensioner that you can get a 1/2 inch socket wrench or breaker bar into and pull to get the belt loose and off, pull towards the front of the car if I remember correctly.

TheRedSharon
07-20-11, 09:13 AM
Thanks for your response, J.
Well hey, if six little tablets prevent me from having to do this for another few years, I'm all for it.
I'm pretty sure there are thirteen bolts too(its not in front of me), and while I can totally see the four remaining bolts, I just can't get at them very well. Two are stashed away behind the pulley to the right of the water pump, and the other two are behind the pulley below it.
The idea of using a jack to lift the engine to a better position is a fantastic idea! Unfortunately for me, I don't have one that would support the weight of the engine, plus I'm working on a gravel driveway that isn't even close to level. I was wishing earlier for Dumbledore to appear and wave that magic wand to fix my car completely, but maybe now I'll just have him construct a proper working area.
I'm completely sure its a 4100 - I checked the VIN coding and everything. I actually keep checking periodically, hoping I either decoded it wrong, or my engine has turned into another one. And really, you have just one belt? I've always had four! I've got two off, and there's one more that needs to come off and be replaced, but I still haven't figured out how to get it off. I'll post a picture later, maybe you can figure it out.
-Red Sharon

jzchen
07-20-11, 11:03 AM
Hey Red,

I'm sorry, but I just searched the FWD section and I couldn't find my post! I think your engine is different than mine. I realized that in the middle of the night I must have accidentally selected the RWD forum instead. Sometimes I come here when I can't sleep for example when I have stomach trouble.... I would still definitely use the tablets if your car calls for them though!!!

TheRedSharon
07-20-11, 11:36 AM
Perfectly fine J, I do the same thing when I can't sleep. I believe we do have the same engine, its just been tweaked slightly between RWD and FWD. And hey, you gave great ideas!

jzchen
07-21-11, 01:43 AM
Thanks for your response, J.
Well hey, if six little tablets prevent me from having to do this for another few years, I'm all for it.
I'm pretty sure there are thirteen bolts too(its not in front of me), and while I can totally see the four remaining bolts, I just can't get at them very well. Two are stashed away behind the pulley to the right of the water pump, and the other two are behind the pulley below it.
The idea of using a jack to lift the engine to a better position is a fantastic idea! Unfortunately for me, I don't have one that would support the weight of the engine, plus I'm working on a gravel driveway that isn't even close to level. I was wishing earlier for Dumbledore to appear and wave that magic wand to fix my car completely, but maybe now I'll just have him construct a proper working area.
I'm completely sure its a 4100 - I checked the VIN coding and everything. I actually keep checking periodically, hoping I either decoded it wrong, or my engine has turned into another one. And really, you have just one belt? I've always had four! I've got two off, and there's one more that needs to come off and be replaced, but I still haven't figured out how to get it off. I'll post a picture later, maybe you can figure it out.
-Red Sharon

Hi Red,

I keep coming back here because I already put my foot in my mouth... Working on gravel doesn't sound like much fun. I guess you could put a blanket down, cardboard, or something else for when you need to go under the car. I don't know if you're near a Harbor Freight Tools shop, which has a lot of relatively inexpensive tools that might help you out. I've gotten pretty inexpensive jacks from Walmart... Anyways, I believe there is a big difference in the way the engines are mounted when considering a FWD and RWD car. Mine is mounted transverse while yours I believe is mounted longitudinally. Your belts are towards the front of the car. Mine is along the side, passenger, if I remember correctly. I have a completely electronic fan, while I'm guessing yours is connected by a belt and run mechanically. I didn't have to remove my fan when doing this job, but I think if I look at the FSM it recommends pulling out the engine to do this job.

About getting the belt off. You could always just start loosening the bolts to whatever it is connected to until you can get the belt off. (You might have trouble getting the belt, especially a new one, back on until you figure out completely how it is adjusted, though.)

We haven't used the car since late 2007 or early 2008, but we got it new, (well, actually my parents did,) when I was still a kid, so I definitely have a lot of experience with this engine...

TheRedSharon
07-21-11, 03:38 AM
Already got my cardboard down. Thank heavens I'm also a stockboy.
Yeah, I do have the longitudinal mount, with a belt driven fan. Fortunately, the book I'm working from doesn't say anything about removing the engine from the car.
The belt I'm trying to get off now is wrapped around the ac compressor, and I'm trying not to fiddle with that at all since the system needs to be discharged before playing with it. I'll go back tomorrow evening and try again to figure out where the tension adjustment is.
You've had the car since you were a kid? That's awesome! My dad bought mine used about seven years ago, but I still feel like I grew up in the car. My father had an '88 Brougham D'Elegance before this car, but I just never liked the seats in that one. I prefer mine.
-Red Sharon

jayoldschool
07-21-11, 12:07 PM
You don't need to discharge the AC to remove the compressor. Just take the mounting bolts out, and swing it out of the way, leaving the lines attached of course. I had to do this on my water pump replacement on my 81. BTW, lots of pics in my project thread if you want to look. It is a 368, but the procedure is the same.

TheRedSharon
07-22-11, 10:47 PM
Jay, I'm surprised by how much your 368 resembles my 4.1. Your thread is really helpful - I just wish I had an impact wrench to get the bolts off the crank pulley. S'okay though, I'll muscle them off. You wouldn't happen to have any bright ideas on how to get the thermostat and the pulley to the right of the water pump off, would you? Its in the way of two more bolts.
-Red Sharon

TheRedSharon
07-27-11, 02:08 PM
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Okay, so I've just got one more pulley to get off and the thermostat. Anyone have any ideas?

csbuckn
07-27-11, 03:58 PM
Power steering, gotta go rent the tool. Easy enough to get off but you'll need the tool. Youtube may have a video of someone taking it off.

TheRedSharon
07-27-11, 07:40 PM
Thanks CS - it was like cutting butter with a hot knife.

Well, my plan for today was to get the water pump off, and in a way I can say "Mission Accomplished." All the bolts are off, and the pump is ready to fall. But it turns out that the bracket holding the alternator on is in the way, and I'm going to have to get the smog pump unbolted in order to get the bracket - and ultimately - the water pump off. *sigh* Why couldn't I just be done...?

TheRedSharon
07-28-11, 09:14 PM
Does anyone know anything about removing the smog pump?

Also, while unrelated, does anyone know how to hook up the automatic parking brake release?