: Fifth Gear gives the new VW Phaeton W12 18/40



Jesda
07-09-11, 02:39 AM
A 45% score.

The highest praise they could give it was the Bluetooth call quality.

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/volkswagen/phaeton/2011/as/10/be/2011_volkswagen_phaeton_f34_10-be-as_42210_717.jpg


78,685 GBP or $126,000 USD

brandondeleo
07-09-11, 03:07 AM
I have never been that big of a fan of the Phaeton... It is an overblown Passat.

Jesda
07-09-11, 03:24 AM
It was pretty amazing when it came out, but a new nose isn't enough to justify the high price.

ben.gators
07-09-11, 04:00 AM
$126,000 USD for a fully loaded Passat?!

brandondeleo
07-09-11, 04:02 AM
You could buy a small house for that...

Playdrv4me
07-09-11, 05:31 AM
That remains one beautifully understated and elegant design though. Keep in mind that if that thing were sold here it would cost significantly less (and WAAY less for the V8 volume model), as with most German car versions sold here. That said, I'm sure its technology is horribly outdated by now.

Stingroo
07-09-11, 08:46 AM
Looks like a Passat that ate a double-Jetta cheeseburger every day for its whole life.

Rodya234
07-09-11, 11:48 AM
I don't know how VW can even make the Phaeton when they have the A8 as well.

OffThaHorseCEO
07-09-11, 11:51 AM
americans arent the only ones who badge engineer

Stingroo
07-09-11, 11:52 AM
americans arent the only ones who badge engineer

Shhhh! Don't tell that to the auto rags or Consumer Reports!

greencadillacmatt
07-09-11, 12:49 PM
I always thought the Phaeton was too Passat-like myself. On the other hand I think the new Beetle is stunning. :drool:

orconn
07-09-11, 01:17 PM
I never got VW's reasoning behind the building and marketing of the Phaeton. I know at the time VW had illusions that the brand was going to make leaps up the ladder to a more prestigious position place in the market. Didn't work and now VW is decontenting their cars to fit its' more traditional market sector.

I mean really would you be tempted to buy a Chevrolet Fleetwood Brougham, and especially at a price of a Cadillac? Maybe VW thought they could sell them to aspiring Audi buying executives who thought they could get a "VW" past the bean counters at the head office. Who knows what VW management was thinking!

Jesda
07-09-11, 01:31 PM
It was Ferdinand Piech being Piechy. MB and BMW were going downmarket so he got mad and said "Oh yeah? We'll go upmarket! In your FACE!" It was stupid because VW was already building the Audi A8.

The same hardware is used in the Bentley Continental, which tarnishes the Bentley brand a bit. Only recently did they switch out the VW key fob for something more unique.


Mass market Bentleys. What a world.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-09-11, 08:48 PM
The Phaeton had a gorgeous interior under the skin of a lamb. It was a very good looking car overall, and second to the A8 when it was new of cars in that class. The LS430 was dreadfully boring, the S-Class was alright looking, the 7 Series was ugly as sin, and the XJ was decent.

Does VW have any intention on bringing this new Phaeton over here?

Jesda
07-09-11, 08:48 PM
Nope.

gary88
07-09-11, 09:26 PM
Shortly after the Phaeton was released here my friend's parents bought one, and not too long after that it was rear ended. Because of the huge lack of parts availability in the US, it took over six months and an absurd amount of money to get everything repaired.

orconn
07-09-11, 11:13 PM
For the life of me, I just can't see what would motivate me to pay $100,000. for a car badged VW. If I want to lower my automotive profile, while maintaining the quality of my ride there are other choices I could make that would not only be cheaper but just as satisfactory. And none of the aforementioned takes into account VW/Audi's less than stellar reputation for reliability and reasonable maintenance costs!

thebigjimsho
07-10-11, 06:45 PM
They should've gone in the opposite direction. Make it like the Equus. Load it with good tech and keep the price low. With VW going downmarket with the new Jetta and Passat, why not make a Town Car replacement with a Phaeton with a few options, a great ride and then price it in the low 50s?

ryannel2003
07-10-11, 10:02 PM
I'd rather have a CC.

Playdrv4me
07-11-11, 06:09 AM
The base Phaeton sticker with the V8 was in the low 60s... The "100k" one was the W12.

ThumperPup
07-11-11, 08:55 AM
i say its going to Flopp again
i remember when my Naiebor who owned a 3 used car lots at the time said hey would you ever buy a 100k VW im like never
i can buy a 100k Audi and have the name lol

but yeah what was it a 3 or was it a 4 year run the Phaeton had ?

i have only seen 2 for sale in the used market atleast that i have actualy driven buy and looked at
and i have maybe seen 4 or 5 acutaly on the road guess who ever bought them got a hell of a deal on incentives or they are die hard VW fans

thebigjimsho
07-11-11, 10:12 AM
I'm gonna start a high end speaker company named Flopp & Naiebor...

OffThaHorseCEO
07-11-11, 11:00 AM
why when its VW, its absurd to charge 60-100 k for a car that shares MANY parts with a freakin bentley. But when its hyundai, we shouldnt be concerned with the badge, or the name, because its whats under the skin that matters

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-11-11, 11:37 PM
I think VW by it's self has always garnered higher end clientele than Hyundai has.

orconn
07-11-11, 11:51 PM
I think VW by it's self has always garnered higher end clientele than Hyundai has.

You are way too young to remember VW's original clientele. For those of us who were alive in the 1960's VW's will always be entry level transportation. Granted, lately, some pretty nice entry level transportation, but definitely not "executive" class!

Playdrv4me
07-11-11, 11:56 PM
I agree with both Chad and CEO guy. I don't really think the VW badge was the problem with the Phaeton, as the thing has had no problem selling in reasonable numbers on world-wide markets. The problem was that the Phaeton revealed GAPING holes in VW USA's dealer service and customer care training and policies. The dealers were COMPLETELY ill equipped to handle the level of clientele that would buy this car. Mate that up with major parts delays and technician situations similar to what happened with the Crossfire (perhaps ONE single "Crossfire certified" tech per dealership, if that), and you have a recipe for immediate failure.

In fact, I believe someone posted here (or maybe it was FB) a while back that Hyundai is ALSO having trouble with what was supposed to be their version of a service concierge for the Equus, so it's no surprise VW had so much trouble.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-12-11, 12:06 AM
People who buy VW's like to feel that they're getting a nicer, more expensive car than a Honda, Toyota, Chevy or Hyundai, even though they pretty much compete in the same price market. Part of the feeling comes from the "german engineered" stigma (which is often false) and the fact that VW's are more finer detailed and are often better looking cars than the comparison. I went and looked at buying a brand new GTi in early spring '09 and I told the saleslady that I had already looked at a Mazda 3, Honda Civic EX Coupe and a Volvo C30, to which she replied "Haha, you're going to stick with the VW, it's better than anything else you looked at." Maybe it's just me, but I hate when salespeople make broad, arrogant, generalizing statements about how much better their product is without any concrete evidence or testimonials. That turned me off of buying from that dealer, and once I read some of the owner reviews of their GTi's, I walked from VW.

When I worked at the Chevy dealer ship a few years back, we were part of a multi brand chain of dealers on the same street. There was a VW dealer, the Chevy dealer, a Toyota dealer and a Hyundai dealer. And since the Chevy dealer was the largest, we had a rental agency in our building that all of the dealers used. When there was any sort of a crowd waiting to get their loaner car, it was always the VW customers that would make a big deal of it and start barking at management for a better rental setup. I actually had a middle aged lady once tell me that she was better than the Chevy customers and shouldn't have to wait in our area for HER rental car.

Ironically enough, when the dealer chain went bankrupt a few years back, the first one to close was the VW store. Suckers.

Playdrv4me
07-12-11, 12:17 AM
btw... If you're willing to endure a little pain here and there on service and repairs (buy a warranty), a low mileage W12 Phaeton is a fantastically cheap large luxury car bargain these days. If you want a comfortable but competent handler with prodigious amounts of power and speed, built like a Bentley, you can save at least 30 grand from a Hyundai Equus and have a far more prestigious and enjoyable ride. I've always been a proponent of these things used.

Jesda
07-12-11, 01:38 AM
Just get a used A8. In addition, you'll have a dealer that theoretically knows what the hell its doing.

Playdrv4me
07-12-11, 02:27 AM
Just get a used A8. In addition, you'll have a dealer that theoretically knows what the hell its doing.

I would get the A8 as a V8, as the W12 version of the A8 is no bargain.

Jesda
07-12-11, 03:02 AM
The A8 has one major advantage:

Aluminum

Rodya234
07-12-11, 03:05 AM
I had actually started a fund to buy a 2000 or so A8, but literally a month after I started saving I found my STS and decided I could save a lot by buying a cheaper car, plus I could do the maintenance myself (it was at least a little bit similar to the Deville) and parts were cheaper. I don't regret the decision.

thebigjimsho
07-13-11, 08:00 AM
It's all m00t.

ThumperPup
07-13-11, 11:21 AM
i saw a A8 at the Saab dealer near me a few weeks back almost tempted to get it but one thing holding me back the price i didn't have 17k
only 2k so thats a big gap lol
but it was a 2004 A8L for 17k i think it had 70k on it came with a 100k warranty from time of purchase 25k bumper to bumper and the other 75k was drivetrain now for a used car that that old i think thats a good deal

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-13-11, 07:14 PM
Just get a used A8. In addition, you'll have a dealer that theoretically knows what the hell its doing.

Couldn't you just have an Audi dealer service the Phaeton and save all the headache?

orconn
07-13-11, 07:20 PM
I know that Volkswagen dealers absolutely refused to service Audi products despite the Audi 5000 and the Volkswagen Passat having the same 5 cylinder engine and sharing numerous parts. An oner had to take his Audi to an Porsche/Audi dealership where he was sure to get screwed! Just another reason I would never, ever own another Audi! If I wanted to pay absurd prices for service at a Porsche dealership I'd have bought a Porsche!

Jesda
07-13-11, 07:56 PM
Couldn't you just have an Audi dealer service the Phaeton and save all the headache?

For example, some MB dealers refuse to service Crossfires. The same is true of some Audi dealers. Some dealers will fix anything while others will only touch their own brands. Depends on the franchise.

The Phaeton has more in common with the Bentley Continental, and good luck getting a Bentley shop to take in a Veedub.

orconn
07-13-11, 08:01 PM
For example, some MB dealers refuse to service Crossfires. The same is true of some Audi dealers. Some dealers will fix anything while others will only touch their own brands. Depends on the franchise.

The Phaeton has more in common with the Bentley Continental, and good luck getting a Bentley shop to take in a Veedub.

Oh I don't know, even Bemtley technicians have to eat .... but expect to pay Bentley prices for the privilege of the ministrations!

Jesda
07-13-11, 08:06 PM
Oh, they'll eat. They'll eat caviar on your dime. :D

ThumperPup
07-13-11, 08:33 PM
yup they do they eat caviar lobster and they go to the finest restruants on your dime

when ever i might have to go to a dealer i figure ill call some chevy dealer up or a buick dealership the ones around here are 20 bucks an hour less then the caddy dealership
like the buick and GMC and Chevy dealer near me they charge 99.99 an hour the Caddy dealerships charge 112 to 119 and hour near me
so i figure i can take it to a chevy dealer for 99 and hour they say we cant work on them you can take it to our caddy dealership down the street im like OMG lol they suck lol

also when mom had a pacific i tried to take it to MB dealer on the auto mile they said to go across to the Dodge dealership across the street lol

concorso
07-13-11, 08:54 PM
$126,000 USD for a fully loaded Passat?!Is the DTS a fully loaded Malibu? The Phaeton is a much better car then the DTS in many many ways.

concorso
07-13-11, 08:57 PM
Couldn't you just have an Audi dealer service the Phaeton and save all the headache?I cant say for certain why this is, but my local VW/Audi dealer cannot service Phaetons. They do most all VW and Audi products (almost bought an S4 there recently), but they dont have the certification or the prestige or the tools or something that allows them to service Phaetons.

concorso
07-13-11, 09:01 PM
For the life of me, I just can't see what would motivate me to pay $100,000. for a car badged VW. If I want to lower my automotive profile, while maintaining the quality of my ride there are other choices I could make that would not only be cheaper but just as satisfactory. And none of the aforementioned takes into account VW/Audi's less than stellar reputation for reliability and reasonable maintenance costs!Some might say the same about the ZR1. The Phaeton is more advanced compared to the Passat then the Corvette is compared to a Malibu. The Phaeton is the Ultimate Undercover luxury sedan. It blows away the Hyundai whatever...

ThumperPup
07-13-11, 09:01 PM
I cant say for certain why this is, but my local VW/Audi dealer cannot service Phaetons. They do most all VW and Audi products (almost bought an S4 there recently), but they dont have the certification or the prestige or the tools or something that allows them to service Phaetons.

wait so they could service a R8 or a S8 or a A8 or A8L because they are a Audi Dealer and they are also a VW dealer but they cant service a car that they can sell ?
OMG

ThumperPup
07-13-11, 09:05 PM
ok its official im going to go check this out tomorrow jsut to see how very special this car is http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=292503204&dealer_id=65962407&car_year=2005&systime=&doors=&model=PHAETON&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=100&min_price=1&rdm=1310605389290&drive=&marketZipError=false&advanced=&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=621177&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=y&make2=&certified=&engine=&dma=CLEVELAND_NE&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=0&transmission=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&color=&address=44122&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=99999&make=VOLKS&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=9&standard=false

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-13-11, 09:06 PM
I suppose they didn't want to put Phaetons and A8s in the same showroom. The Phaeton would probably be sold through independent VW dealers so they didn't want to compare internally in the brand.

concorso
07-13-11, 09:11 PM
I agree with both Chad and CEO guy. I don't really think the VW badge was the problem with the Phaeton, as the thing has had no problem selling in reasonable numbers on world-wide markets. The problem was that the Phaeton revealed GAPING holes in VW USA's dealer service and customer care training and policies. The dealers were COMPLETELY ill equipped to handle the level of clientele that would buy this car. Mate that up with major parts delays and technician situations similar to what happened with the Crossfire (perhaps ONE single "Crossfire certified" tech per dealership, if that), and you have a recipe for immediate failure.

In fact, I believe someone posted here (or maybe it was FB) a while back that Hyundai is ALSO having trouble with what was supposed to be their version of a service concierge for the Equus, so it's no surprise VW had so much trouble.Couldnt be more spot on. Cadillac is going through this right now with the CTS-V. Theyve got a good product with the CTS and SRX, an expressive emotional design language, new and growing customer base, yet the dealer experience hasnt changed. There is still such a large gap between the good Cadillac dealers and the bad Cadillac dealers. Lexus is fantastic at protecting its image (or at least it was), even tho it's lineup is the most ho-hum-put me to sleep lineup on the market. Lexus is much better at dictating how a dealership should be. Cadillac needs to start protecting its brand more. Working with the Ritz Carlton is a fantastic step in the right direction. It will all be for nought if they dont force every dealer to comply.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-13-11, 09:17 PM
What is Cadillac doing with Ritz Carlton??

A few years ago, right around the time of the bailout, Cadillac announced they were trimming down their dealer base. In Minnesota, they went from like 15 to 7 or so. I thought that was a national idea as well? Their aim was to make the Cadillac dealers like the Lexus dealers....very very high end inside & out, extremely professional, courteous and clean, and lastly...Cadillac exclusive. No more multi franchise dealers with Cadillacs aside Chevrolet, Buick or other non-GM franchises.

Most of the Cadillac dealers in MN are multi-franchise dealers, and there's only one I can think of that's Cadillac-exclusive. It's the oldest Cadillac dealer in the state (same owners since 1973) and they used to do Oldsmobile as well (back in the day, Olds was #2 to Cadillac), but after '02, it was purely Cadillac.

Jesda
07-13-11, 09:17 PM
Is the DTS a fully loaded Malibu? The Phaeton is a much better car then the DTS in many many ways.

No, vastly different architectures.

ThumperPup
07-13-11, 09:19 PM
Couldnt be more spot on. Cadillac is going through this right now with the CTS-V. Theyve got a good product with the CTS and SRX, an expressive emotional design language, new and growing customer base, yet the dealer experience hasnt changed. There is still such a large gap between the good Cadillac dealers and the bad Cadillac dealers. Lexus is fantastic at protecting its image (or at least it was), even tho it's lineup is the most ho-hum-put me to sleep lineup on the market. Lexus is much better at dictating how a dealership should be. Cadillac needs to start protecting its brand more. Working with the Ritz Carlton is a fantastic step in the right direction. It will all be for nought if they dont force every dealer to comply.

wow i must have missed that i guess i don't stay up on what the Ritz Carlton does much anymore because they closed the location in Dearborn hts Mi year before last year i used to stay there ones a month when me and my girl just wanted to go somewhere nice for the weekend

i know they used to work with MB they had there MB specials where you would get a MB for the amount of your stay yeah you paid out the tail for the room like 499 for a night at the ritz with free in and out valey parking a MB with a full tank of free gas during each nite of your stay free breakfast
599 to go to the club level i wonder what they will be doing working with Cadillac

concorso
07-13-11, 10:01 PM
wait so they could service a R8 or a S8 or a A8 or A8L because they are a Audi Dealer and they are also a VW dealer but they cant service a car that they can sell ?
OMGLike I said, Im not sure why they cant (or wont, or are not allowed to) but yes thats the case. The boss of my old boss wanted one, but ran into that roadblock. He ended up going with an RR Phantom instead...

drewsdeville
07-13-11, 10:03 PM
Most of the Cadillac dealers in MN are multi-franchise dealers, and there's only one I can think of that's Cadillac-exclusive. It's the oldest Cadillac dealer in the state (same owners since 1973) and they used to do Oldsmobile as well (back in the day, Olds was #2 to Cadillac), but after '02, it was purely Cadillac.

Back in the day, Cadillac was #2 to Olds :yup:, though not '73.

concorso
07-13-11, 10:08 PM
No, vastly different architectures. Saying the Phaeton is a glorified Passat just because the design language and architecture is the same, is silly. Even tho, afaik, the Phaeton shares architecture with the Cont, not the Passat. An Audi A8 looks closer to a Passat then a DTS looks to a Malibu...but the actual gap in techology between the A8 and Passat is much greater. The Phaeton being a VW wouldnt bother me. The car is special, even if the Fifth Gear guys are too used to driving nice vehicles.

ryannel2003
07-13-11, 10:14 PM
A person I work with at the VW dealership said that when the Phaeton came out in 2004, they were rolling off the trucks in barely running condition. He basically said they were huge piles of junk and the A8 was a much better, more reliable car. We had one in the detail shop for a while and it had been in a low flood and they had to total it because the parts availability was so scarce. After what I've read (and seen) about the Phaeton and VW's in general, I'd rather stick with a Northstar Cadillac any day of the week.

You have to be a certified dealer to service Phaetons, and you have to be a certified Audi dealer to service R8's. Unfortunately, we aren't certified.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-13-11, 10:16 PM
Aren't the Phaetons and A8's the same basic car underneath, aside from the extensive use of aluminum in the Audi?

ryannel2003
07-13-11, 10:35 PM
For the most part, but for some reason VW had quite a few issues with the Phaeton's that the A8 just didn't have. That's not to say the A8 is a reliable car by any means, however.

Jesda
07-14-11, 12:01 AM
Saying the Phaeton is a glorified Passat just because the design language and architecture is the same, is silly.

Oh I agree with that.

The Phaeton is a bargain-priced Bentley. The problem is, it makes the Continental an overpriced Volkswagen.



Ferdinand Piech is a peculiar fellow.

93DevilleUSMC
07-14-11, 03:13 AM
You could buy a small house for that...

Man, where I live, you can buy a foreclosed five-bedroom house on an acre lot and buy a new V sedan. $126K for a Volkswagen? My ass.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 03:47 AM
A person I work with at the VW dealership said that when the Phaeton came out in 2004, they were rolling off the trucks in barely running condition. He basically said they were huge piles of junk and the A8 was a much better, more reliable car. We had one in the detail shop for a while and it had been in a low flood and they had to total it because the parts availability was so scarce. After what I've read (and seen) about the Phaeton and VW's in general, I'd rather stick with a Northstar Cadillac any day of the week.

You have to be a certified dealer to service Phaetons, and you have to be a certified Audi dealer to service R8's. Unfortunately, we aren't certified.

YES! Because AGAIN, the car is essentially a Bentley rolling chassis with VW sheetmetal. Owning a Phaeton would be a challenge, sure. So buy yourself a SOLID warranty (I'm talking like a 4000.00 warranty), prepare yourself for the pitfalls, and then go out and enjoy your 100k off (assuming we're talking used to used, as a NEW Connie is around 200 grand now) Bentley Continental in a Men's Wearhouse suit. I just don't see a negative here. Hell, even Sandy was into these things.

Jesda
07-14-11, 06:29 AM
The Phaeton weighs 1,100 pounds more than its nearest competitor, the Audi A8. It is completely without a purpose or position in the market. Its competitors are more agile, better looking, more technologically advanced, more prestigious, and more reliable.

You buy a Bentley because it is bespoke, because it is an overt expression of one's wealth and achievement. If you take all of that away, you're left with a heavy, uninspiring mass of a car.


From Edmunds:

Nothing yet discovered makes the 2004 VW Phaeton superior to other superb, often less expensive, luxury cars. So why are Phaetons so expensive? Our mystery tour moves to Dresden, Germany. Here we find "The Transparent Factory", possibly the world's finest auto production facility. Here, VW builds Phaetons behind walls of glass. We see partially assembled Phaetons hung from overhead rails. We see robots positioning windshields. We see a six-story tall glass cylinder displaying new Phaetons. Everything is clean here. Noise is minimal. This is ... magnificent. And seeing it, we can solve our mystery, for we know two things: (1) The investment of $186-million Euros in this plant means VW is serious about making luxury cars; and (2) there must be a mighty big mortgage on this glass palace. You can bet that buyers of Phaetons will pay it down. The pity is that Phaetons don't rise above the competition. They're good, but not best. And VW has an "image" problem. The "People's Car" brand lacks prestige. This elusive is immensely important to luxury car buyers. Luxury car brands bespeak owners as elegant, powerful. During test week, the $106,615 sticker price of the Phaeton W12 brought only guffaws and the same repeated question: "Why?"

Set aside the prestige issue, and what remains is a well-polished ultra-refined pig with an uncompetitive list of options.

thebigjimsho
07-14-11, 11:57 AM
wow i must have missed that i guess i don't stay up on what the Ritz Carlton does much anymore because they closed the location in Dearborn hts Mi year before last year i used to stay there ones a month when me and my girl just wanted to go somewhere nice for the weekend

i know they used to work with MB they had there MB specials where you would get a MB for the amount of your stay yeah you paid out the tail for the room like 499 for a night at the ritz with free in and out valey parking a MB with a full tank of free gas during each nite of your stay free breakfast
599 to go to the club level i wonder what they will be doing working with CadillacPoints!

ThumperPup
07-14-11, 04:17 PM
Points!

tbjs im confused what you saying ?

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 04:41 PM
The Phaeton weighs 1,100 pounds more than its nearest competitor, the Audi A8. It is completely without a purpose or position in the market. Its competitors are more agile, better looking, more technologically advanced, more prestigious, and more reliable.

You buy a Bentley because it is bespoke, because it is an overt expression of one's wealth and achievement. If you take all of that away, you're left with a heavy, uninspiring mass of a car.


From Edmunds:


Set aside the prestige issue, and what remains is a well-polished ultra-refined pig with an uncompetitive list of options.

Looks are subjective, and were EASILY a toss up between both cars back when the Phaeton was still being imported here. And now, the understated appearance of the Phaeton blows away the garish new A8. That rear pillar is one of my favorite recent design themes on any vehicle and is NOT duplicated on the A8. Also, it's a vehicle that doesn't scream "look at me", while still providing essentially the same power train as the Bentley for thousands of dollars less. Yes, that carried with it the same responsibilities with respect to maintenance and reliability, but if you understood that, you knew you were getting a bargain AND would not have the hassles involved with protecting, insuring and finding repair for your Bentley. At least, that was the intent before the U.S. VW dealers destroyed that last element. The quality of the interior furnishings goes *far* beyond most manufacturers and COULD almost be called "bespoke" with several individual options (at least at the time the Phaeton was imported here).

http://dubfoto.com/albums/userpics/10003/4_Seat_Interior_Sun_Beige_2~0.jpg

http://dubfoto.com/albums/userpics/10003/Rubber_Winter_Floormat_2~0.JPG

For their price-point, the attention to detail on these cars was nothing short of spectacular. Those air vents are recessed because on average days you could leave them ENTIRELY hidden behind a motorized wood veneer that would act as a "radiator" instead of blowing the air right at your face, and keep the appearance of the wood unbroken all the way across. The dash overlay was a hand-stitched leather affair that consisted of more individual sections than most other cars which had leather dash panels at the time. The instrument panel gauges were designed to approximate the face of a fine watch, and featured an anti-reflective coating that allowed them to be visible even in strong sunlight. There was an additional large, full color LCD in between the gauges to duplicate the center console display (only two other vehicles had this at the time, the A8 and the Touareg). The fantastic steering wheel wood was an ENTIRE slab of wood, not just quadrants or overlays. On the center console, another solid slab of wood extended all the way through the rear passenger compartment if you ordered the 4 corner seating option. Moving to the rear passenger area, ALL of the brightwork is GENUINE polished metal (NOT shiny plastic), including the intricate polished rings around the climate control unit. That canted control unit for the rear passengers included climate controls, air vents and separate entertainment controls. Of course, the requisite heat, cooling and massage were all there as well. These are all VERY bespoke style options not seen in anything but the highest end BMW and Mercedes products, and of course Bentleys and Rolls' costing thousands more. This was a car for someone who LOVES details and discovering new, high quality parts and pieces and tactile surfaces but did not want to spend, and/or be associated with a vehicle costing 100 grand more. Other markets recognized this and this is why the car continues to sell well elsewhere.

This all assumes you find a pre-owned, loaded W12. The base V8, while necessary to maintain the entry price-point, is essentially pointless with as good as the A8 was.

Jesda
07-14-11, 05:07 PM
Yes its beautiful, and its exceedingly pleasant, but it offered less car (unless you measure value by pounds per dollar) for more money. Thus the reason its gone.

Because it was an developmental testbed for Bentley rather than a luxury Volkswagen from the ground up, it wound up being a neutered Flying Spur, which leaves behind much of the manufacturing cost but none of the technological advancement of its competitors or the personalization and heritage of a Bentley.

Its an interesting used bargain for a baller on a budget, but brand new it was a marketing/positioning blunder. Thus the reason its gone.






But most importantly, despite the high build quality and the LACK of high-tech features, they're unreliable junk. An Audi A8 offers more agility, equal comfort, greater dependability, and easier serviceability for nearly the same used car money. When you're somewhere between Texas and California and the onboard electronics take a dump, good luck getting Dan's Volkswagen-Kia Automall to fix it properly.



I'll take an interest in Phaetons when they dip below 8 grand. But even then, the equivalent A8 would be a much more enjoyable driver's car.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 05:17 PM
Yes its beautiful, and its exceedingly pleasant, but it offered less car (unless you measure value by pounds per dollar) for more money. Thus the reason its gone.

Because it was an developmental testbed for Bentley rather than a luxury Volkswagen from the ground up, it wound up being a neutered Flying Spur, which leaves behind much of the manufacturing cost but none of the technological advancement of its competitors or the personalization and heritage of a Bentley.

Its an interesting used bargain for a baller on a budget, but brand new it was a marketing/positioning blunder. Thus the reason its gone.






But most importantly, despite the high build quality and the LACK of high-tech features, they're unreliable junk. An Audi A8 offers more agility, equal comfort, greater dependability, and easier serviceability for nearly the same used car money. When you're somewhere between Texas and California and the onboard electronics take a dump, good luck getting Dan's Volkswagen-Kia Automall to fix it properly.



I'll take an interest in Phaetons when they dip below 8 grand. But even then, the equivalent A8 would be a much more enjoyable driver's car.

What high tech features do you keep going on about? This was 2004... Back then Keyless Ignition, a full screen navigation system with high resolution graphics, swiveling Xenon headlights, heated and cooled seats, and even autonomous cruise control were PLENTY competitive. In fact, technologically speaking, the only major foible I remember the car had was the ancient CD based Nav database. Keep in mind I'm talking about the time-frame when the car was imported here. I like the appearance of the new one, but agree it probably lacks many of the toys available today.

ryannel2003
07-14-11, 05:18 PM
I drove this today:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/279381_10150229736466895_580256894_7744609_7607603 _o.jpg

I want one. The Phaeton looks like overpriced junk compared to the A8 seen here. No comparison at all.

Jesda
07-14-11, 05:30 PM
What high tech features do you keep going on about? This was 2004... Back then Keyless Ignition, a full screen navigation system with high resolution graphics, swiveling Xenon headlights, heated and cooled seats, and even autonomous cruise control were PLENTY competitive. In fact, technologically speaking, the only major foible I remember the car had was the ancient CD based Nav database. Keep in mind I'm talking about the time-frame when the car was imported here. I like the appearance of the new one, but agree it probably lacks many of the toys available today.

The Phaeton was not "plenty competitive" in its segment of the market. Its competitors were better equipped, better looking, and more dependable for less money.


I don't know how else to describe it. The Phaeton was woefully ill-prepared to compete in one of the world's most competitive luxury car markets, so it headed back over the Atlantic and never came back. I did a fairly extensive project on Volkswagen's North American strategy in 2010 -- its baffling how the world's largest automaker has so much trouble penetrating more than 1.9% of the US market.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 05:36 PM
I drove this today:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/279381_10150229736466895_580256894_7744609_7607603 _o.jpg

I want one. The Phaeton looks like overpriced junk compared to the A8 seen here. No comparison at all.

How exactly does a car *look* overpriced? Particularly when the price ranges for both were relatively similar. In fact, I am a huge proponent of that generation A8 myself (and nearly bought one), but find the cars, as is to be expected with as similar as the D1 and D3 platforms are, to be more similar than they are different. The difference is the Phaeton adds a few more interesting design elements, such as the rear pillar design shared with the Flying Spur, and the rear tail light arrangement I've always liked for its simplicity...

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200811/2009-volkswagen-phaeton-16_800x0w.jpg

http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/04/19/17/46/2006_volkswagen_phaeton_w12_4dr_sedan_awd-pic-29395.jpeg

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 05:39 PM
The Phaeton was not "plenty competitive" in its segment of the market. Its competitors were better equipped, better looking, and more dependable for less money.


I don't know how else to describe it. The Phaeton was woefully ill-prepared to compete in one of the world's most competitive luxury car markets, so it headed back over the Atlantic and never came back. I did a fairly extensive project on Volkswagen's North American strategy in 2010 -- its baffling how the world's largest automaker has so much trouble penetrating more than 1.9% of the US market.

There is no need for VW subterfuge. What *specifically* are the myriad of features the Phaeton is missing compared to other vehicles in its segment at that specific timeframe? I'm not talking about looks, I'm talking about specific features which made other vehicles so tremendously better equipped.

I'll even give you your obvious freebie... the aluminum frame on the D3 platform. This is definitely a win for the A8... fine. But I'm not seeing much else...

Jesda
07-14-11, 05:47 PM
Read the Edmunds article I quoted.

Despite the Phaeton's high price, it lacked features offered by Lexus. Even if you set aside its badge, the Phaeton had nothing on paper that made it superior to its competitors.



The Phaeton is ideal for the baller-on-a-budget folks who might buy Flying Spur/Continental wheels to convince themselves they've joined the ranks of bespoke luxury. I'd buy one for 10 grand or less as a toy to dick around with for 6-12 months, but not 20 or 30 thousand.

OffThaHorseCEO
07-14-11, 06:03 PM
see thats the thing though. those who would buy a car to "look rich" wouldnt buy a veedub. theyd over extend themselves to get a bentley or "settle" for a mercedes or BMW.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 06:04 PM
Read the Edmunds article I quoted.

Despite the Phaeton's high price, it lacked features offered by Lexus. Even if you set aside its badge, the Phaeton had nothing on paper that made it superior to its competitors.

I don't have to read it, because I know both cars well.

Over and above the Phaeton, the LS430 offered an optional refrigerator, a DVD based navigation system, power door closers, a rearview camera and bluetooth. However, as is typically the case with Lexus products, the LS430 was *exceptionally* advanced for that time-frame. It also did not have the European driving dynamics of the Phaeton, the high quality 4 position seating option, the power trunk lid (the LS430 had the annoying pull down), or its available 420hp 6.0L W12. The motor alone makes up for those "toys" on the Lexus.

As for the A8, 7 Series and ESPECIALLY the S Class (which climbed *far* higher in price).. the Phaeton was right on par or exceeding them.

Lord Cadillac
07-14-11, 06:05 PM
I wish I had time to read the whole discussion - but I don't - I'm late to the party. In any event, I bought my wife two Passat's - and we drove them around for 3 or 4 years. The Phaeton is definitely a lot different from the Passat.


I have never been that big of a fan of the Phaeton... It is an overblown Passat.


$126,000 USD for a fully loaded Passat?!

Jesda
07-14-11, 06:12 PM
I don't have to read it, because I know both cars well.

It offered less without costing less, and the badge didn't help. I don't know how else to explain it.

And if you threw an Audi badge on the Phaeton, it would still be uncompetitive. Even the S-class weighs 700lbs less than the Phaeton.

orconn
07-14-11, 06:26 PM
Looks are subjective, and were EASILY a toss up between both cars back when the Phaeton was still being imported here. And now, the understated appearance of the Phaeton blows away the garish new A8. That rear pillar is one of my favorite recent design themes on any vehicle and is NOT duplicated on the A8. Also, it's a vehicle that doesn't scream "look at me", while still providing essentially the same power train as the Bentley for thousands of dollars less. Yes, that carried with it the same responsibilities with respect to maintenance and reliability, but if you understood that, you knew you were getting a bargain AND would not have the hassles involved with protecting, insuring and finding repair for your Bentley. At least, that was the intent before the U.S. VW dealers destroyed that last element. The quality of the interior furnishings goes *far* beyond most manufacturers and COULD almost be called "bespoke" with several individual options (at least at the time the Phaeton was imported here).

http://dubfoto.com/albums/userpics/10003/4_Seat_Interior_Sun_Beige_2~0.jpg

http://dubfoto.com/albums/userpics/10003/Rubber_Winter_Floormat_2~0.JPG

For their price-point, the attention to detail on these cars was nothing short of spectacular. Those air vents are recessed because on average days you could leave them ENTIRELY hidden behind a motorized wood veneer that would act as a "radiator" instead of blowing the air right at your face, and keep the appearance of the wood unbroken all the way across. The dash overlay was a hand-stitched leather affair that consisted of more individual sections than most other cars which had leather dash panels at the time. The instrument panel gauges were designed to approximate the face of a fine watch, and featured an anti-reflective coating that allowed them to be visible even in strong sunlight. There was an additional large, full color LCD in between the gauges to duplicate the center console display (only two other vehicles had this at the time, the A8 and the Touareg). The fantastic steering wheel wood was an ENTIRE slab of wood, not just quadrants or overlays. On the center console, another solid slab of wood extended all the way through the rear passenger compartment if you ordered the 4 corner seating option. Moving to the rear passenger area, ALL of the brightwork is GENUINE polished metal (NOT shiny plastic), including the intricate polished rings around the climate control unit. That canted control unit for the rear passengers included climate controls, air vents and separate entertainment controls. Of course, the requisite heat, cooling and massage were all there as well. These are all VERY bespoke style options not seen in anything but the highest end BMW and Mercedes products, and of course Bentleys and Rolls' costing thousands more. This was a car for someone who LOVES details and discovering new, high quality parts and pieces and tactile surfaces but did not want to spend, and/or be associated with a vehicle costing 100 grand more. Other markets recognized this and this is why the car continues to sell well elsewhere.

This all assumes you find a pre-owned, loaded W12. The base V8, while necessary to maintain the entry price-point, is essentially pointless with as good as the A8 was.

I have to admit that is one very well done interior!

Jesda
07-14-11, 06:38 PM
There are two markets where the Phaeton has done well, and that's SK and China (and by "well" I mean 2000 or so units per year). The people who buy them in those markets do not drive them! They buy them because the the downmarket badge is better for security, and economical V6 engines are available.



In America, we drive our own luxury cars. Its a pleasure and a privilege to be the captain of your own ship, to be in full control of your destiny and mobility. The "Drivers Wanted" brand built a car for passengers, a role that should have been exclusively left to Bentley.

ryannel2003
07-14-11, 06:54 PM
The VW doesn't look particularly rich compared to the other cars in the class. I just don't understand where this love for the Phaeton comes from, but then again I can't figure out where your love of the LS400 comes from either. Sit the Phaeton and A8 side by side, and the Phaeton looks like a pig in comparison.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 09:21 PM
There are two markets where the Phaeton has done well, and that's SK and China (and by "well" I mean 2000 or so units per year). The people who buy them in those markets do not drive them! They buy them because the the downmarket badge is better for security, and economical V6 engines are available.



In America, we drive our own luxury cars. Its a pleasure and a privilege to be the captain of your own ship, to be in full control of your destiny and mobility. The "Drivers Wanted" brand built a car for passengers, a role that should have been exclusively left to Bentley.

Nope... strongest market for the Phaeton has been... drumroll please... Germany. "The domestic market is by far the Phaeton's strongest, with 19,314 Phaetons delivered in Germany alone by January 2009."

Those guys know some stuff about cars, yet they are the ones buying Phaetons in the highest numbers. Curious.

Thanks for playing.

Jesda
07-14-11, 10:25 PM
Your numbers are outdated by more than two years. Since 2009, the A8 has been updated, the 7-series entered its fifth generation, and the Panamera was introduced. There was also a recession.

In Germany, the Phaeton is currently outsold by the A8, S-class, 7-series, AND Porsche Panamera. If Germans "know some stuff about cars", it appears they know about the Phaeton's inferiority.

"By January 2009" is a phrase that references the car's original release date. It says "Germany alone by January 2009" not "Germany by January 2009 alone." When you divide it by production years from 2002 through 2009, you're left with a quantity of less than 2400 German-market cars per year.

I'm also baffled by why you believe its any achievement that Germany buys a handful of Phaetons. Its their domestic market. That's like wondering why Americans buy Malibus. On top of that, Germany buys few Phaetons compared to their other home grown mass-market luxury cars.


As of today, less than 2000 Phaetons are sold in Germany each year, which is at least 500 units less than China. This may change with the release of the 2012 model (supposedly new features will complement this year's facelift).





If you grasped the global scope of the auto industry and wanted to be clever, you'd note that China is an emerging market with growth potential for luxury Volkswagens, especially because VW's brand is somewhat new to China with room to establish itself as an upscale brand. I'm going to recommend you some excellent books in order to update your knowledge, that way we can discuss these matters from an equivalent baseline in the future.





Transformers 2 was the best movie ever. Jimmy said so.

Playdrv4me
07-14-11, 11:37 PM
http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/full/2002/s2002080401/cd1930phaeton5801.jpg

Jesda
07-14-11, 11:59 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Chrysler/chrysler_Phaeton_Concept_BY_05_MDB_05.jpg

brandondeleo
07-15-11, 03:34 AM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Chrysler/chrysler_Phaeton_Concept_BY_05_MDB_05.jpg What the hell is that thing? It looks a little like an '02-'05 Thunderbird that had a horrible encounter with a Prowler. I think I like it. Lol

Jesda
07-15-11, 03:52 AM
Chrysler's Phaeton concept from the 90s, back when they had balls and captured 19% of the US market (what Toyota had at its peak a couple years ago).

brandondeleo
07-15-11, 03:57 AM
The car behind it to the left looks shockingly like a Concorde, and the window shaping on the car directly behind it reminds me of the 1930's Bugatti.

ThumperPup
07-16-11, 11:53 AM
Chrysler's Phaeton concept from the 90s, back when they had balls and captured 19% of the US market (what Toyota had at its peak a couple years ago).

they had balls before Mercedes bought them LOL

qwertyuiop
04-09-14, 06:12 AM
In the phaeton exists only the BEST WOOD AND LEATHER! and it's placed very very high, over Merc...bmw..audi. The Phaeton is their prestigious luxury car as the veyron is their prestigious Sport car! Watch on youtube Phaeton The Vision. And read more about it and you will remain impressed. Frederick Piech whant's to retaire with a BANG and he produced the best Car ever made, The Phaeton(Sory for my bad english, it's not my first language)