: Sway Bar Question.....



killer67
07-07-11, 12:25 AM
I have not seen many threads on sway bar upgrades. I know a couple manufacturers have them available. My question is:

Is it worth the money for a 575 rwhp car that sees the street most the time? They are expensive but will the the cost pay off with better turning, handling, etc..? Thanks

baabootoo
07-07-11, 12:59 AM
Nope, a complete waste of time and money for a street car.

killer67
07-07-11, 01:08 AM
Thanks Baabs! Do others agree?

laynrockers
07-07-11, 01:30 AM
Well personally I look forward to throwing my car around corners everyday, so I have thought of this. Would love to hear form someone who went with this upgrade

tabio42
07-07-11, 02:26 AM
Depends on how hard you drive on the street and what brings you utility. I will go with swaybars eventually. For now im enjoying straight line stuff. Plus straight only wears out your rear tires. Going around turns wears out front and rear tires plus brakes :)

supratovcoupe
07-07-11, 02:30 AM
Tacking Yes Street No
I know they are sold in sets but I have alot of track experience
In a Turbo Supra and it's seem alot of the fast guy's go front only
Although I have not had the V coupe on the track yet?
Better bite from the rear out of turns.just my 2 cents......Mark B.

M5eater
07-07-11, 08:44 AM
I'm in agreement with others. If we were talking about some econo-box I would say it's worth it, even on the street. Since we're talking about a sub 8minuite ring lapper. You'll likely whimp out long before the OEM suspension will on street corners with traffic. I would also be weary about going out and buying the biggest bar set right away.. that doesn't mean there are not advantages to be had, but the car already throttle oversteers at will.

Domsz06
07-07-11, 11:24 AM
I wouldn't want any stiffer of a ride then it already is. The sway bars would affect the ride quality. (but I also don't road track it)

Dr. Design
07-07-11, 02:31 PM
Hello,
We spend a lot of time on the track and driving these cars to their potential. We can certainly say these cars need sways if you are doing any type of spirited driving. When you toss this car around corners you can feel the lean and extra load on the suspension. It is an uneasy feeling and typically requires, you as a driver, to lift a bit. Our road race car handles like a dream (much better than it did when it was stock)! With the adjustable mounting points we can alter the handling of the vehicle within a few minutes. Given the vehicles overall weight, this car still needs some help. Yes, this platform has done sub 8 minute ring times, but that doesn't mean it cant use a few quality suspension upgrades.

We have install sways on numerous types of cars. From track to street, some people don't like the feeling of tipping over when they hit a hard corner.

Here is a video of one of our customers on the east coast that spends a lot of time on the track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawEanydkOo
You can see how the vehicle stays nice and flat through the corners.

It should also be pointed out that adding sway bars will not adversely effect the ride quality in a straight line. Sway bars on effect the vehicle when cornering. It will keep the vehicle flat, period. It will not make the ride harsh or stiff.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac



I have not seen many threads on sway bar upgrades. I know a couple manufacturers have them available. My question is:

Is it worth the money for a 575 rwhp car that sees the street most the time? They are expensive but will the the cost pay off with better turning, handling, etc..? Thanks

Domsz06
07-07-11, 02:47 PM
Hello,
We spend a lot of time on the track and driving these cars to their potential. We can certainly say these cars need sways if you are doing any type of spirited driving. When you toss this car around corners you can feel the lean and extra load on the suspension. It is an uneasy feeling and typically requires, you as a driver, to lift a bit. Our road race car handles like a dream (much better than it did when it was stock)! With the adjustable mounting points we can alter the handling of the vehicle within a few minutes. Given the vehicles overall weight, this car still needs some help. Yes, this platform has done sub 8 minute ring times, but that doesn't mean it cant use a few quality suspension upgrades.

We have install sways on numerous types of cars. From track to street, some people don't like the feeling of tipping over when they hit a hard corner.

Here is a video of one of our customers on the east coast that spends a lot of time on the track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawEanydkOo
You can see how the vehicle stays nice and flat through the corners.

It should also be pointed out that adding sway bars will not adversely effect the ride quality in a straight line. Sway bars on effect the vehicle when cornering. It will keep the vehicle flat, period. It will not make the ride harsh or stiff.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Interesting. Everycar I have added them too it has affected the ride quality... Pretty cool if yours don't.

Dr. Design
07-07-11, 02:57 PM
Yeah they are pretty cool. Just drove a CTS-V yesterday that had sways and I totally forgot they were on there. Like we said, they don't effect the ride quality. Have you been in a 09+ CTS-V with sway bars and experienced the "affected ride quality"?

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Interesting. Everycar I have added them too it has affected the ride quality... Pretty cool if yours don't.

JOEYCTS-V
07-07-11, 03:28 PM
I know I felt a difference on my 04' V.

Domsz06
07-07-11, 03:32 PM
Yeah they are pretty cool. Just drove a CTS-V yesterday that had sways and I totally forgot they were on there. Like we said, they don't effect the ride quality. Have you been in a 09+ CTS-V with sway bars and experienced the "affected ride quality"?

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

nope sure have not. No one down here has em that I know of.

Luna.
07-07-11, 06:15 PM
There might be a semantic issue going on here & I would say it depends on how one defines, "ride quality."

If "ride quality" to you includes how the car behaves during a fairly hard turn, then yeah, clearly sway-bars will impact that, as they help the car not list like a boat during cornering. But sway bars don't change the spring, nor shock, rates, so the "ride quality" from that perspective isn't changed at all.

In my mind, the entire point of getting sway bars is to reduce the lean a car has during cornering. As such, the idea that the ride quality has been negatively changed from that perspective, but one would want to reduce the car's lean during cornering at the same time, would be rather strange, if not downright stupid.

Umrswimr
07-07-11, 06:46 PM
It's impossible for a sway bar NOT to affect ride quality, even in a straight line, unless the road is perfectly flat. Any difference in wheel position between the left and right (like a bump) will be resisted by the sway bar.

In my opinion, arbitrarily adding a sway bar without understanding what you're changing is a sure way to screw things up. Adding a bigger sway bar to the front of the car will, generally speaking, increase UNDERSTEER. The car may feel like it corners flatter, but you're probably making things worse. This is a suspension system. It's designed to work as a system and you need to understand what part of that system is deficiant before you make changes and expect it to be a faster car on the racetrack.
Don't get me wrong- I feel the car could probably use a stiffer sway bar as well. However, without some testing by the people peddling these products, I'm extremely skeptical of any claims without some proof. I tried the "trial and error" method on my C5 and it was a mess... Eventually I went with what the SoloII and SCCA folks recommended and it's been solid since.

haterinc
07-07-11, 10:13 PM
they're on my bucket list because I can feel the lean rounding into hard corners. You granny driving those cars Domsz? Lol. You can feel a major diff between the planted rails on the Z vs the V.

Recent R&T article:
The CTS-V is no petite flower, its curb weight of 4300 lb. some 430 lb. heavier than the GT500’s. Couple that with the slightly narrower front tires, and the result is understeer, especially excruciating on some of the Radical Loop’s tighter turns. Our skidpad testing reaffirms the deficiency, with excessive front scrub and a 0.92g number that’s simply outclassed by the Shelby. Said Elfalan, “In Sport mode, the suspension feels like it has too much compression damping, to the point where the front end washes out prematurely.” Bailey counters, “Where the GT500 gets ragged, the Cadillac felt solid and stoic under duress of hard lapping.” Certainly, the Caddy is more at home on the fast, fluid sweepers of the Nürburgring, where its chassis engineers have put in considerable development time, but here under Nevada’s bright sun, you need to think well ahead of the car, trail-braking deeply to keep the front tires stuck and get the more lightly loaded rear end to rotate.

killer67
07-07-11, 11:00 PM
I think i may pull the trigger on them and compromise a little on ride quality so i can continue to drive like an idiot :highfive:

Domsz06
07-08-11, 08:48 AM
they're on my bucket list because I can feel the lean rounding into hard corners. You granny driving those cars Domsz? Lol. You can feel a major diff between the planted rails on the Z vs the V.



Lol I don't think so, have hit 1+ on the z, and 1.1 on the caddy around corners.... Don't think i granny drive em. I just don't do much road racing so can't see the justification. I also would have to ride in a car with them because I feel like the other gentelmen that even on a straight line as well as on the (bumpy tx roads) it would make the ride quality harsher (bumpier, not as cadilalc smooth) My z is bumpy enough with the QA1's and I don't want to jar my DD any more then it already is. I'd love to hear from a member that has them talk about how the ride is.

If it really is smooth, I have seen the pics from D3 and you can for sure see how much they help prevent roll.

M5eater
07-08-11, 08:52 AM
I've had bars on two or three vehicles in my life, never once have they compromised ride quality. You're decreasing mostly the compression/flex between the struts that occurs during high-g turns, the increase resistiance to lateral movement because the struts are connceted via a bigger bar has been non-existiant in my experience. They're not welded to the frame, they have bushings that allow that kind of movement.

thebigjimsho
07-08-11, 09:10 AM
It's impossible for a sway bar NOT to affect ride quality, even in a straight line, unless the road is perfectly flat. Any difference in wheel position between the left and right (like a bump) will be resisted by the sway bar.

In my opinion, arbitrarily adding a sway bar without understanding what you're changing is a sure way to screw things up. Adding a bigger sway bar to the front of the car will, generally speaking, increase UNDERSTEER. The car may feel like it corners flatter, but you're probably making things worse. This is a suspension system. It's designed to work as a system and you need to understand what part of that system is deficiant before you make changes and expect it to be a faster car on the racetrack.
Don't get me wrong- I feel the car could probably use a stiffer sway bar as well. However, without some testing by the people peddling these products, I'm extremely skeptical of any claims without some proof. I tried the "trial and error" method on my C5 and it was a mess... Eventually I went with what the SoloII and SCCA folks recommended and it's been solid since.I had a slightly larger rear bar and a slightly smaller front one on my SHO. My car's suspension system was about perfect. My FWD could rotate with the best of them.

I also am leery of just slapping on bars. People keep flapping their gums about lean. Ohnoes, lean is bad! Um, no. Lean is not bad. Lean is the end result of your suspension doing its job. You stiffen those bars, you BETTER be getting more aggressive tires with stiffer sidewalls. If you go with Hankooks or other softer sidewall tires, then you are not helping your V with aggressive sway bars. Any sidewall squirm will be much more noticeable...

Umrswimr
07-08-11, 03:56 PM
Lol I don't think so, have hit 1+ on the z, and 1.1 on the caddy around corners.... Don't think i granny drive em. I just don't do much road racing so can't see the justification. I also would have to ride in a car with them because I feel like the other gentelmen that even on a straight line as well as on the (bumpy tx roads) it would make the ride quality harsher (bumpier, not as cadilalc smooth) My z is bumpy enough with the QA1's and I don't want to jar my DD any more then it already is. I'd love to hear from a member that has them talk about how the ride is.

If it really is smooth, I have seen the pics from D3 and you can for sure see how much they help prevent roll.

I had QA1's on my C5 as part of the "experimentation" package. Absolutely hated them. They were the single worst purchase I made and I didn't realize it until I switched to the Koni's. Unless you drag race, lose them. Seriously.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autocrossing-and-roadracing/684848-my-scathing-letter-to-qa1-motorsports-hal-12-way-adj-shocks.html

GMX322V S/C
07-08-11, 10:08 PM
One fact about "sway bars" is irrefutable: they make an independent suspension less "independent" because they couple the two sides together. So on a racing surface they can bring great dividends, but on imperfect streets, it's always a compromise. Oh, and unless you're over-tire'd, a certain amount of lean is beneficial because it allows weight transfer to the outside tires, which helps them "set." (higher coefficient of friction)