: 1968 DeVille Window Motor Questions



bhs82
06-26-11, 12:16 AM
I've been doing some work on my friend's 68 CoupeDeVille.
He recently purchased the car and a few parts came with including the Window Motor for the Driver's door (the one mounted only went down but not up without pulling it by hand).

I was testing the mounted one trying to pull it up and all of a sudden it just stopped. I assumed it finally gave out (but after reading it appears it may have had an internal circuit breaker that threw).

Anyhow, I pulled out the old and when I went to install the (new) one that came with the car I found the connector did not match. The original had perpendicualr connections while the new one had parallel. At that point I decided I would bridge the two by making 2 wires with m/f connections. Of course I was very careful to use electrical tape to create a seal against water to avoid short circuiting. (I thought I had a picture but now can't find it).

I noticed a spring tensioner on the regulator assembly which pulls the assembly to the 'down' position. This would explain why the motors tend to speed down but go really slow up (tension is AGAINST the upward motion).

With everything apart but wired, I tested it several times all with success. I greased the channels and tested intermittently as I went. Once the glass was on though and the door panel attached (but not yet screwed in), the up direction was very strained and slow, sometimes not working without assistance. FRUSTRATION. I didn't know if the weight of the glass or the additional pressure of the door panel trim against the glass or a combination of the two was the culprit but nevertheless I was disapointed. All I could do at that point was finish the job and so I did.

I did discover though that reving the engine while motoring the window up seemed to help it limp by.

HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS;
1. Do these motors ever work strongly going up?
2. From reading here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/63-64-65-66-67-68-69-70-cadillacowners.com-Window-Motor-LH-/300553233130?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&fits=Year%3A1968|Make%3ACadillac&hash=item45fa5e62ea#ht_2566wt_1146)... It appears that the parallel connecting motors are from 1976-1980 whereas the perpendicular are from 1963-1970...
Is that accurate? Is the power 'draw' the same?
3. What would happen if I completely disengauged the spring tensioner from the regulator? I'm assuming the upward motor would be stronger and the down be just fine by virtue of gravity, but thought I'd ask as disengaging looks like it might be a permanent venture.

I performed several other tasks during the same "service". When he went to drive the car, he described smoke and a smell from under the dash. All the items related to the Circuit Breaker went out (Power Windows, Power Seat, Horn, etc). The Circuit Breaker has not reset. Not being able to find a replacement yet, I tried a 30A fuse. Still, nothing works. That is now a separate issue but I am wondering if this was caused by the new motor drawing more power than the old.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanx


Original Motor (click on image for a full sized picture).
http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_6329-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_6329.jpg)

CADforce69
06-26-11, 09:29 PM
I have no experience with window motor specific issues but I think you can find a circuit breaker here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/65-66-67-68-69-70-Cadillac-GM-40-amp-Circuit-Breaker-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZYearQ3a1968Q7cMakeQ3aCadil lacQQhashZitem45f5ad1845QQitemZ300474505285QQptZVi ntageQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

You may also check if a 69 circuit breaker fits to your 68: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=69+cadillac+circuit+breaker&_sacat=0&_odkw=68+cadillac+circuit+breaker&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

PRdeVille
06-27-11, 03:46 PM
Idea: What if you supply the motor with power directly from the battery?
If it works well that way, maybe it's the cables supplying it power?


===
As to the spring that pulls down the window... would you have a way to check that is correct?
Could it be possible some ham-fisted mechanic worked on it in the past, and hooked-up the spring where it did not go?

bhs82
07-04-11, 06:50 PM
CADforce69 - You are JohnnyOnTheSpot. That is EXACTLY the Circuit Breaker (1st eBay link). Turns out the original MAY have been OK but I can't find it right now, LOL. I want to avoid throwing money at the problem without knowing what the problem really is.

THEORETICALLY (and I've checked with a couple of electricians but invite input here), using a 40Amp Fuse or less is safe; If a fuse blows, it's permanent and simply requires replacing the fuse (which at $2 for 4 is cheap). The CB resets automatically and so I suppose if I can't find the one I pulled I'll get another eventually. In the mean time there are new electrical developments which I've posted about here (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/234314-68-deville-must-haunted-ghost.html#post2644330).

As to this thread, I'm still looking for answers to 'My 3 Questions'.


PRdeville,
I'll try that with a battery jumper today. I'm not sure if the other problems will prevent such a test or not.

As far as the spring, goes, I sure wish I would have taken pictures. I did find similar pictures online (from an ElDorado) but not as close up as I would have preferred.
http://i.ebayimg.com/13/!B1mGQL!B2k~$(KGrHqF,!hUE)7wUqUVFBMfFj5,tPg~~_12.J PG
http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!B1mGTD!BWk~$(KGrHqZ,!hgE)8!PDZkhBMfFkE45Hg~~_12.J PG
Here is the image from the parts catalogue;
http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/392-Group10-44.jpg
As you can see, it's more like a coil than a spring and it is a part of the regulator assembly. I don't think you can either adjust it, or mount it incorrectly. The way it goes is the way it goes and it's either mounted or not. As I mentioned, the tension pulls to the down position. Other measures keep the window from going 'up' too far. I'm just curious IF it can be removed and re-installed and what would happen if it were removed. I'd hate to remove it, still not work correctly, then have to replace a motor AND the regulator assembly.

I'm hoping someone else here has experience with this.

intragration
07-08-11, 02:39 AM
Real quick, if I'm following, you replaced a circuit breaker with a fuse. I don't know what the rating of the circuit breaker was that you're bypassing, or it's blow qualities, i.e. slow-blow, fast-blow, but I would recommend being very careful. If you're smelling burning and smoke, and you're putting something in that's going to be slower in reacting or carrying more current, you could be taking a bad situation (overheating) and making it much worse (fire, etc.). Again, I don't know the exact situation, just recommending caution.

Dirtywaterdiver
07-08-11, 07:26 PM
Cole Hersee CO. makes a CB in 40 Amp that you can get at any Non-Chain auto parts place . The part number on my box is 30410-40-bx.

It is a smaller black box than the original and it has brass tabs that fit into the Buss space correctly.

bhs82
08-09-11, 06:50 PM
(Click on any picture for a full sized image)

UPDATE
Ho Hum...
So I decided it was best to get a re-manufactured motor from A1Cardone.

First off was identifying the right part number. You can check the image for the application. (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/PartNumbersIdentified.jpg) 4211 is the motor for the driver door (front left) and the rear seat passenger (right) window, while 4212 fits the passenger door (front right) and the rear seat driver's side (left) window. Odd, diagonally compatible. OK...

Online I found them priced from $70ish to $130ish PLUS core charge which could be as much as $30 (NOTE - None of the motors I found came with either the regulator or the gear). Autozone has the motor for about $75ish with only a $5 core, but it is a special order part and then you have to wait for shipping and pay tax. My best find was at streetsideauto.com (http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/a1-cardone-4211/) where they had it for only $65.98 Shipped, No Tax, No Core Charge. Note - my first visit to that link showed 'not in stock'. I signed up for the email notification and the next day when I went to the link it showed several in stock - go figure - probably a ploy to get people to sign up or I was co-incidentally lucky. I will tell you this, park on the product page for a couple of minutes and a chat window will appear with a customer service rep on the other end. I utilized this and found the chat very informative, helpful and reliable.

Shipping went FedEx ground out of PA. I ordered on a Saturday evening and received the item in So Cal the following Friday morning (the 5th week day).

Upon arrival I was surprised to find that the motor connections were parallel and there was an "adapter" wire to fit a perpendicular receiver. Uh - isn't that what I did? Point being that reasonable assumptions can be made;
1. The electrical draw is the same (I don't see any 'reducer' on the adapter).
2. The motor I installed with my home-made adapter may be faulty.
3. The only difference between my home-made adapter and the manufactured one is the connections on either end... First of all, the manufactured one has 'water resistant' enclosures by virtue of the fitting/form factror while I used electrical tape to insulate... The second difference is that the adapter connection has a groove on one side so that the up/down orientation does not get reversed (I had to test my version to verify which connection was correct).

The rear passenger side window on this vehicle is not working. I tested the switch and it is fine and the interior light dims slightly while pressing on the switch so I assume it is the motor. Before putting this new unit in the driver's door I am going to use it to see if the right rear motor is dead (since I need that window down to replace the upper weatherstripping anyway). As I go along, I will continue to post pictures and when I get to the motor I had installed in the driver's door with my own 'jimmyrigged' adapter, I will post pix of that as well. Here are images of the 4211 A1 Cardone Rebuilt Motor as it was received with the adapter;

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7185.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7184.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7186-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7186.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7188-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7188.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7189-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7189.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7200-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7200.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7193-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7193.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7191-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7191.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7202-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7202.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7204-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7204.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7212-1.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7212.jpg)

bhs82
08-09-11, 06:55 PM
BTW, thanx for the Cole Hersee info... Once I figure out the rest, I will eventually get one of those circuit breakers and install it. For now, using the fuse method gives me insight for troubleshooting.

sheryarsb
08-12-11, 11:23 AM
You may have already done this bit but here is how I managed to speed up my motor without any electrical work and/or replacing the coil spring

First of all, old grease is like a wax, you have no idea how sticky it can get, wash it all out with a degreaser and get rid of it, apply new grease. The adjustment screw on motor allows you to vary the pressure and speed. What I did was, connected the motor to power source and ran it without any load while turning the screw, and tighten it where you get best speed. put it all back and it works fine now.

CADforce69
08-12-11, 12:23 PM
Didnīt know there is an adjusting screw in the motor. Thanks for the tip. One never knows when one of these motors may fail. :)

bhs82
09-23-11, 10:04 AM
4211 is the motor for the driver door (front left) and the rear seat passenger (right) window, while 4212 fits the passenger door (front right) and the rear seat driver's side (left) window. Odd, diagonally compatible. OK...

Um, wrong.
BTW, Thank you for that tip. I indeed removed the old and replaced with new grease the first go-round. As far as the screw, I messed with the adjustment on one of the motors but it did not seem to make a difference. In my case, that screw SEEMED more like an access for the drive should one have to replace it due to gearing wear.

Here's the deal.
I had to open up the right rear panel anyway. I discovered that the driver's door unit is NOT compatible with the right rear unit (reversed). But, while I had the rear open, I did hook up this motor (reman A-1 Cardone to Right Rear Window power using Right Rear Window switch) to make sure this motor was a working unit (and to verify the switch/wiring) before tearing into the driver's side. Unfortunately, I did not pay attention to direction (which may have been confusing anyway since the unit is reversed). However, the motor sounded very strong and so with a great deal of confidence and inspiration I put back together the rear before starting on the front.

With the reman A-1 installed, no improvement.
Every motor works, but seems week going up as compared to going down.
In fact, you can hear the difference in the motor with a "stronger" sound going in the down direction with a "weaker" sound going in the up direction - and that is with no load, power connected and unit grounded.

I'm at the point now where I think that the CURRENT FLOW to the UP direction is less than what it should be.
I again connected each motor and tested.
I ended up going back to the original (which sounded the strongest and was directly compatible wiring wise) but used a new gear (old was quite worn). The result was a very weak upwards direction that would require hand assistance in many cases.

I had been really hesitant about removing that coil spring I discussed earlier, particularly since once it is off, it does not look like it would go back on easily. But after all the hassle (mind you, was working in a driveway in 106 heat and a black car so the metal inside the door would burn my hand every time I brushed up against it), I went for it.

Here are pix with it attached as well as with it off (click on pix for larger images). I used a large screwdriver to get it off.
After putting back together the entire animal, the window now goes all the way up without hand assistance allbeit a little slow. But it works better without the resistance of the spring. Since the whole thing is geared, the window is not sliding down as a product of gravity. I'm not sure what the purpose of that coil spring was, and I don't recommend removing it unless no other solution is working... but... for me... so far so good.

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7537-2.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7537.jpg)

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7538-2.jpg (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/raiderzfan53/1968_Cadillac_CoupeDeVille/Power%20Window%20Motor%20-%20Drivers/IMG_7538.jpg)

DeVille68
01-05-13, 06:17 PM
Hi guys. Thanks for this great thread. Very useful information and pictures. I have a 68 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and I am currently in the process of restoring my door panels. Today, I just finished sanding my original wood veneer. Next week I will apply the lack.
So, I thought it would be a good idea to also restore the window motor, because the window moves a little slow.
Now, how did you remove the motor from the doors?

In my 68 Service Manual (Body by Fischer) they suggest to drill three holes to access the screws. Page 6-27.
If possible, I would like to remove the motor without drilling any holes!


Could anyone of you give me some tips or steps how to remove the motor?

Thanks a lot,
Nicolas

Vernon 70 DeVille
11-27-13, 07:48 PM
Hey guys,

I also just purchased a '70 Coupe DeVille and I'm in the process of replacing the passenger (front) window motor. I first removed the door panel and noticed that there is no access to the 3 bolts on the motor. I then removed the 4 bolts on the regulator assembly (maybe a mistake) and slide out the roller wheel from the window track. I attached the new motor while still inside the door, but now I can't seem to get the 4 bolts aligned back-up and also have the roller wheel in the window track. It seems like there is too much tension in the coil spring to rotate the assembly back to be aligned to the 4 holes.
I've read about the possible suggestion to drill 3 holes into the door to access the screws (sounds like that would have worked better).
I've also read about the possible suggestion of removing the coil spring (not sure about that) and I don't think the regulator assembly will fit through the cut-out in the door.

My main question is ... even though I've removed the 4 bolts on the regulator assembly, should I still be able to align the holes?

Thanks in advance foe your help.
Vernon

cadillacmike68
11-29-13, 11:15 PM
Some interesting items here. My driver's window is slow going up so I'll apply some of these tips here to it.

DeVille68, you do have to drill three holes to get the motors out.

Vernon 70 DeVille
12-31-13, 02:16 PM
Hey guys,

I have completed installing the power window motors on the front doors. I just removed the rear door panel and lower portion of the back seat. There is a triangular shaped brace at the bottom of the door panel. I'm ready to drill the 3 holes, yet the lower hole seems to located in the middle of the door brace. I concerned about drilling a 3/4" hole into this structrual brace. Has anyone drilled into this area or has suggestions?

Vernon

CadillacPimpinNOLA
12-31-13, 04:30 PM
ok, some tips to make it last longer as stress on the motors will burn them up faster...grease the rollers and the track the roll in. in the window run where the from and back of the glass fit in the felt, spray a silicon spray inside there, make sure you get it top to bottom. this will make the window go up smooth and quicker


as for the coil spring, they are dangerous but the way you do that one now that the motor is off. you will need a vice. clamp the arm flat in the vice just enough to hold it but not crush or deform it. put the coil spring in place and pull the mount panel around it will have tension and fight you, once you get it to the end of the teeth on the regulator, drop the window motor in where it lines up with its mount holes and the gears mesh to hold it securely. use your rivets or screws whatever mounts it and tighten it up.

be carefull as that coil is under extreme pressure and will let loose if not careful.