: F10 M5 does the 'ring in 7:55...



e6t
06-25-11, 11:22 PM
ahead of the panamera turbo to apparently take the seat as the fastest sedan.


http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

M5eater
06-25-11, 11:24 PM
ahead of the panamera turbo to apparently take the seat as the fastest sedan.


http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html


you're linking a site that lists a 2010 1.2L suzuki swift is as the fastest car in the world around the ring? Hmmm

e6t
06-25-11, 11:35 PM
yeah... youre probably right... nevermind...

hulksdaddy
06-25-11, 11:48 PM
you're linking a site that lists a 2010 1.2L suzuki swift is as the fastest car in the world around the ring? Hmmm

Dude, c'mon, JESUS was driving it. Guy INVENTED heel/toe. ;)

BLitzkrieg
06-25-11, 11:54 PM
you're linking a site that lists a 2010 1.2L suzuki swift is as the fastest car in the world around the ring? Hmmm

http://www.suzukisport.com/pr/ppihc09/img11.jpg

GMX322V S/C
06-26-11, 12:51 AM
A good 150-200 lbs lighter than the V...with similar power. Formidable.

Wonder who was driving, Herr Worle? Wonder what Johnny O could do in a V coupe?

baabootoo
06-26-11, 01:32 AM
So they're production vehicles so it's official?

BLitzkrieg
06-26-11, 02:01 AM
I don't think the Panamera was an official run and the F10 is not production yet.

EuroTrash
06-26-11, 03:26 AM
Dear Cadillac,

Please give us another 100hp so I can continue to thumb my nose at my BMW loving douchebag neighbor who spent to much on a "luxury sport sedan".

Sincerely,

A devoted fan

tbss08
06-26-11, 09:28 AM
Dear Cadillac,

Please give us another 100hp so I can continue to thumb my nose at my BMW loving douchebag neighbor who spent to much on a "luxury sport sedan".

Sincerely,

A devoted fan

While your at it why don't you build a product with quality as well.
Sincerely,
An ex-GM devoted fan

Florian
06-26-11, 12:57 PM
TBSS, sorry to hear about your runaround with the General.....BUT, the above is a great post. Well done.


F

M5eater
06-26-11, 01:57 PM
Dear Cadillac,

Please give us another 100hp so I can continue to thumb my nose at my BMW loving douchebag neighbor who spent to much on a "luxury sport sedan".

Sincerely,

A devoted fan

Our 'luxury' sport sedan doesn't sport some features found on a 16K compact. I would argue ''too much'' is relative. Honestly the V is about as bare-bones luxury as you can get. I could probally count on my fingers the features the V has on the 11 year old Audi Beater.

concorso
06-26-11, 03:00 PM
I don't think the Panamera was an official run and the F10 is not production yet.Cadillac ran the CTS-V on the 'ring before the V was in production.

concorso
06-26-11, 03:09 PM
Our 'luxury' sport sedan doesn't sport some features found on a 16K compact. I would argue ''too much'' is relative. Honestly the V is about as bare-bones luxury as you can get. I could probally count on my fingers the features the V has on the 11 year old Audi Beater.I agree. The big question is, can Cadillac afford to move upmarket offering higher quality materials, and more technology, and the higher price that comes along with the extra stuff? Its a gamble as the CTS has a good image, but Cadillac's isnt where it could be. Funny, I asked a friend recently what he thought of Cadillac, as he has a V and a Gallardo. He replied "Which Cadillac? The brand that makes the CTS or the brand that makes the DTS?"

JimmyH
06-26-11, 04:28 PM
I'll never understand the DTS hate. It's not meant to be competition for BMW and MB. It's meant to be a $40k luxury car. The folks who scoff at DTS are small-minded goobers.

neuronbob
06-26-11, 05:06 PM
I'll never understand the DTS hate. It's not meant to be competition for BMW and MB. It's meant to be a $40k luxury car. The folks who scoff at DTS are small-minded goobers.

I completely agree with this. There is still a HUGE market for the DTS and it's the most common Cadillac I see around here....driven by old folken and those who appreciate a supple ride in a nice luxury car and who don't care about RWD or FWD. It's the market the XTS is meant for. I have NO problem with Cadillac trying to support both its traditional market and bringing in new guys like me, who never have considered owning a Cadillac before three years ago.

....not to mention I have a closet love for the newer DTSs....

In any case, there is still improvement to be made on interior quality. If the interior quality can be improved to Honda/Acura, or better yet--Audi quality, that can only be good.

M5eater
06-26-11, 05:51 PM
I'll never understand the DTS hate. It's not meant to be competition for BMW and MB. It's meant to be a $40k luxury car. The folks who scoff at DTS are small-minded goobers.

it's not a 40K luxury car, (base price for MY2011 is 46K)
For argument's sake though, what's in the 35-40K segment?
Lexus IS
Audi A4
BMW 3series
C300

Or in other words, some of the best products those respective companys put out, and all of those have base's of the low 30s, so you can have some options before hitting the 40K mark. The only thing at that point the DTS has over the above is size, the engine is aging and dated for the segment, it only gets 22-23mpg and the exterior styling is also suffering from a lack of a refresh.

If we were to look at what is acutally *in* it's segment though, like say, the A6, 5 series and E class, all of which have more powerfull powertrains, get better fuel economy, have better build & material quality, have been recently refreshed (in the F10's case) and have more standard features, there's nothing left for the DTS to have an advantage over except maybe warranty coverage.

maybe I'm missing something though.

mrl859
06-26-11, 05:56 PM
it's not a 40K luxury car, (base price for MY2011 is 46K)
For argument's sake though, what's in the 35-40K segment?
Lexus IS
Audi A4
BMW M3
C300

Or in other words, some of the best products those respective companys put out, and all of those have base's of the low 30s, so you can have some options before hitting the 40K mark. The only thing at that point the DTS has over the above is size, the engine is aging and dated for the segment, it only gets 22-23mpg and the exterior styling is also suffering from a lack of a refresh.

If we were to look at what is acutally *in* it's segment though, like say, the A6, 5 series and E class, all of which have more powerfull powertrains, get better fuel economy, have better build-quality, have been recently refreshed (in the F10's case) and have more standard features, there's nothing left for the DTS to have an avtange over except maybe warranty coverage.

maybe I'm missing something though.Where can you get a new M3 for 35-40K????????

M5eater
06-26-11, 06:08 PM
Where can you get a new M3 for 35-40K????????

outter space.. obviously I ment 3 series. You caught me dreaming for a second, and the ninja edit failed :P

JimmyH
06-26-11, 08:10 PM
The dts is more comfortable than any other car mentioned here. It's also a mature design so there are no surprises. It sells well and has a loyal following. And it's like driving in your living room. Many folks appreciate it. It's just not an enthusiast ride. Which is why it gets hate. And I hate when people criticize it for that reason.

M5eater
06-26-11, 08:24 PM
The dts is more comfortable than any other car mentioned here. It's also a mature design so there are no surprises. It sells well and has a loyal following. And it's like driving in your living room. Many folks appreciate it. It's just not an enthusiast ride. Which is why it gets hate. And I hate when people criticize it for that reason.
being a more comfort oriented ride is fine, I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing; gas mileage,power trainn, material build/quality,gadgett features and in need of a refreshed exterior. There's classic and timeless design and then there's producing the exact same car from 05 to 2011. I realize there are other cars with longer than6 year production cycles, but I bet all had a least 1 major refresh in between.

me personally, if I'm going to spend $50,000 I *would* like to be surprised and impressed, maybe it's better to say my beef isn't so much with the DTS as it is with GM for not learning from their mistakes. The Impala is another great candidate for my nerd rage.

550HP STSV
06-26-11, 11:01 PM
I hate to break it to you, but my friend that is a salesman at a local high sales Cadillac dealership bestowed upon me a truth that I hadn't expected:

75% of DTS owners DONT want navigation.

Astounded, I asked "why in the world would someone NOT want navigation in their band new car?"

The truth was that the demographic that is buying the DTS' (generally people in their mid to late 60s and beyond,) DONT want to hassle with a huge, complex navigation system. They want as few buttons as possible, as few features as possible, and a good, quiet, comfortable ride. The DTS appeals to this generation of owners. The ones who want to turn a key, drive to church, and not have to deal with all the gee-wiz features on brand new cars. This is why the DTS appeals to them. Why in the world do you think the DTS is still offered with NO navigation, a bench seat, and column shift?

Because thats how MANY of the DTS' are configured brand new. Many of the DTS owners want it as simple and luxurious as it gets - turn key, enjoy a soft ride with more than enough torque to get out of the way of an emergency, and little to no problems. Should I mention the DTS was actually the most dependable large premium sedan by JD Power in 2001? Take that import luxury sedans:

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/03/j-d-power-names-cadillac-dts-the-most-dependable-large-premium-sedan/

And to think, I learned all this because my 24 year old best friend couldn't find a DTS with navigation, bucket seats, and floor shift in Ohio. Think twice before you knock the DTS. Cadillac obviously knows more about the market than we do.

e6t
06-27-11, 12:04 AM
the first time my v was in the shop (for a month) i had a new dts... i didnt understand how the dts could be built so well and the v could be such a pos.

i love the dts.

baabootoo
06-27-11, 01:29 AM
Don't forget the huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge trunk in those things too.

DrumStix
06-27-11, 01:38 AM
the first time my v was in the shop (for a month) i had a new dts... i didnt understand how the dts could be built so well and the v could be such a pos.

i love the dts.

DTS ring time plz? Now that would be friggin fun.

e6t
06-27-11, 11:42 AM
DTS ring time plz? Now that would be friggin fun.

including bathroom breaks and stops for "back stretching"?

JimmyH
06-27-11, 02:09 PM
the first time my v was in the shop (for a month) i had a new dts... i didnt understand how the dts could be built so well and the v could be such a pos.

i love the dts.

Like I said, it's a mature design. The wrinkles were ironed out years ago. And I bet it's a VERY profitable car as a result. Which is why I don't understand why they are discontinuing it. I still know alot of people (who of course are not enthusiasts) who don't want a rear drive car. you know the XTS is going to have it's growing pains. If they kept the DTS they would at least have something to keep the old-timers happy.

Also, find a DTS platinum to sit it. It is Niiiiiiiccccccceeeeeeee.

M5eater
06-27-11, 02:27 PM
Like I said, it's a mature design. The wrinkles were ironed out years ago. And I bet it's a VERY profitable car as a result. Which is why I don't understand why they are discontinuing it. I still know alot of people (who of course are not enthusiasts) who don't want a rear drive car. you know the XTS is going to have it's growing pains. If they kept the DTS they would at least have something to keep the old-timers happy.

Also, find a DTS platinum to sit it. It is Niiiiiiiccccccceeeeeeee.

cars that were in line @ 7:30 AM this morning @ the cadillac DLR;

4 DTS's
1 CTS-V-- guess who's.

Rule12b
06-27-11, 03:20 PM
It's definitely a "3 Hoffa" trunk.

JimmyH
06-27-11, 04:12 PM
"3 Hoffa" lulz

RippyPartsDept
06-27-11, 05:26 PM
Also, find a DTS platinum to sit it. It is Niiiiiiiccccccceeeeeeee.

might very well be my next car... it's at or near the top of my 'want list'

Kluch
06-28-11, 04:42 AM
I love the DTS. I'm a cadillac guy first and foremost. I just happen to drive a V for now. As much as I am glad that cadillac has begun to appeal to a younger demographic, I wish more of my fellow V owners appreciated the heritage behind this car. The DTS defines cadillac in many ways. It's the presidential limo baby! Like my parents before me, I will always drive a cadillac.

Prof
06-28-11, 08:27 AM
http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/cars/2012-bmw-m5-unveiled-44360/

Not many pictures...but a strong statement...twin turbo!!

M5eater
06-28-11, 08:43 AM
http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/cars/2012-bmw-m5-unveiled-44360/

Not many pictures...but a strong statement...twin turbo!!

there's that 7:55 number again... at least we have some publication that backs it up now, and that means the F10 is practicly even with a CTS-V if it can only manage 4 seconds advantage on a 13mile course. Which you could probally chauck up to the the driver or even the tires, or transmission choice... It also means I can keep my plates with just a pully or tune. :)

Prof
06-28-11, 09:28 AM
Just thought the thread got a little off track...so went searching for some documentation...professors tend to do that kind of thing...sorry for being so academic...I can't help it. :halo:

M5eater
06-28-11, 09:36 AM
Just thought the thread got a little off track...so went searching for some documentation...professors tend to do that kind of thing...sorry for being so academic...I can't help it. :halo:

It's a testimate to how good the V2 is if a hopped-up F10 with 6 settings for shift firm-ness can only manage 4 seconds on a 2V V8 with a 6 year old 6speed auto that's pretty much the same one used in an SUV ;) .

haterinc
06-28-11, 10:06 AM
i'll be interested to see if those cross drilled rotors make it to production considering some say they're inferior

M5eater
06-28-11, 10:27 AM
i'll be interested to see if those cross drilled rotors make it to production considering some say they're inferior

inferior on a civic with 11.2" rotors that sees daily driving all it's life yes. on a 2ton 100K sports saloon that does the ring in under 8minuites, they're probally worth it.

SPEED74V
06-28-11, 11:00 AM
Here is what was posted by a GM employee on the Camaro5 forums.

"So the all new M5 beats the CTS-V by less than 4 seconds. Guess we'll have to go back over and make the point again"

It is still fun to read the boards over at Camaro5, as their is a lot of speculation on the the engine out of the CTS-V going into the ZL-1.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155216

e6t
06-28-11, 11:31 AM
whats more impressive is that BMW improved the M5s time from 8:13 (e60)... thats a TON of time shaved off... largely in part, i assume, to the Vs stellar showing.

If you look at the times on the list, Im betting there isnt much more to gain in these cars... The new M5 is 3 seconds off a Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4? a Ford GT?

I seriously think 7:55 is the near the floor for a production sedan.

1-2-N-V
06-28-11, 12:26 PM
While your at it why don't you build a product with quality as well.
Sincerely,
An ex-GM devoted fan

More and more i am with tbss08, I too had a lot of issues with quality of my V. And just the service aspect of Cadillac dealers (And i went to 4 of them) should not have been anything else but the "standard of the world". I have posted many times how the Infinity dealer treats me when i bring my wife's car. Total customer satisfaction and attention to detail. After service they wash your car, they will walk you to you car, start it, hand you the key and say "thank you for your business". That is attention to detail!

I loved my V but still hate it when i see that GM just cheap out on stuff. One for instance; The stainless steel wire mesh used on the 09 rear fascia, is now replaced with a cheap plastic mesh. The front grill is chromed plastic. Why not a real nice brushed aluminum one? Maybe should offer an optional blacked out grill. The new side vent is small & ugly. And i cant say for sure but i bet they still kept that creaking sunroof plastic trim for the ultra view. Clearly a cheap way to finish off the headliner. Look, can they build a "just that much better" car? I think so. But are people willing to pay for it when they can get a MB or a BMW? Cadillac will have to step up to the plate if they want to compete with the new M5 or the E63 AMG, not to mention the "flying VW hatchback" Porsche Panamera.

Although i will be going to to Monticello Raceway in July,(and i will enjoy driving the V again i'm sure) I will certainly be asking questions of performance upgrades and build quality issues for what is in store for the next V to come. And If the new 2012 model year doesn't bring just some enhancements (Like spanking the new M5), i just may be in an M3 next..

Sorry don't mean to bash Cadillac. All that i have owned besides my wires car, was American. But at this time in my life i just cant take stupidity, laziness and lack of quality in any product I buy. $70 k is not small change to expect great quality. And i think that most here may agree that they would pay a little extra to get that quality. What... maybe another $5-10k or so could accomplish some of these issues i'm sure and still be less money than the competition. If they (GM) don't learn from these mistakes and listen to all the Owners on these forums, then shame on them. I want to buy another Cadillac but i won't if i don't see some changes for the better.

Sincerely,
A 2nd ex-GM devoted fan

SleepTight
06-28-11, 12:37 PM
whats more impressive is that BMW improved the M5s time from 8:13 (e60)... thats a TON of time shaved off... largely in part, i assume, to the Vs stellar showing.

If you look at the times on the list, Im betting there isnt much more to gain in these cars... The new M5 is 3 seconds off a Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4? a Ford GT?

I seriously think 7:55 is the near the floor for a production sedan.

Even more impressive that BMW did it with a car that weighs almost 4300 pounds. Lots of new components in the F10 M5 so it's hard to key on single new component as the critical factor for the improved time. However, the meatier torque curve of the S63Tü engine would be an obvious place to start as a key to the M5's low time on the "Ring's curves.

In that sense, the F10 M5 is following GM's work with the CTS-V in going with a lower revving forced-induction V8 over the old high-revving V10.

M5eater
06-28-11, 03:23 PM
Even more impressive that BMW did it with a car that weighs almost 4300 pounds. Lots of new components in the F10 M5 so it's hard to key on single new component as the critical factor for the improved time. However, the meatier torque curve of the S63Tü engine would be an obvious place to start as a key to the M5's low time on the "Ring's curves.

In that sense, the F10 M5 is following GM's work with the CTS-V in going with a lower revving forced-induction V8 over the old high-revving V10.

i would bet the fact that the F10 M5 gets 23mpg has more to do with it than following the V2. High revving N/A engines have been in M cars since the orginal.