: Bob Lutz talks about the boneheaded management at Old GM.



Jesda
06-20-11, 02:58 AM
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/show/1525?play

"Car Guys vs Bean Counters" is a VERY good book.

Bob Lutz (of GM, Chrysler, Exide, Ford, BMW) talks about how GM analyzed and brand-managed itself into a hole by leaving product development to MBAs, analysts, marketing executives, and accountants instead of the creative types with a passion for automotive design. In the book he admits to several of his own mistakes. I'll post a review of it in a week or two.

"If you want intelligent people, boy, GM is loaded with them. Common sense gets left aside."

Watch the video for an overview. He criticizes the Aztek, the Envoy XUV, and canceled projects like the 7-passenger Saturn Vue which would have been the same vehicle with the addition of a massive rear overhang.

77CDV
06-20-11, 02:27 PM
In other news, the sky is blue and the sun rose in the east again today.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-20-11, 06:12 PM
Sounds like a good book. I'll have to pick that one up.

Stingroo
06-22-11, 12:57 AM
I saw an Envoy XUV today. Probably only the second one I have ever seen.


Random thought for the day.

johnny kannapo
06-24-11, 04:01 PM
GMAC is the only mistake GM couldn't handle.

brandondeleo
06-25-11, 04:24 AM
I knew someone who had an Aztec. Good god, did Pontiac barf in it's mouth, or what... The earlier Envoys are hideous as well. The only Saturn ever made that is even worth not spitting at (just personal opinion here) is the Sky.

brandondeleo
06-25-11, 04:56 AM
If only there were more people like Bob Lutz to run today's automakers...

DouglasJRizzo
06-26-11, 08:13 AM
I have to agree, GM design and development was run by "non-car" guys for sure.

Stingroo
06-26-11, 08:14 AM
Ehem. New guy... (:lol:) you will soon learn: I like the Aztek.

brandondeleo
06-26-11, 09:34 AM
That makes one of us. Lol

Stingroo
06-26-11, 09:38 AM
Mmhm I get ribbed about it often. I also adore the SSR.

brandondeleo
06-26-11, 09:40 AM
SSR... Mixed feelings. Design, A+++. Love it. Practicality on the other hand... It has the turning radius of a limousine and the storage of a Miata.

Stingroo
06-26-11, 09:41 AM
Practi-whatsthat?

It's cool as crap. Can be had with nearly 400 horsepower, and has an aftermarket that stretches as far as the eye can see. Love love love.

I'll take mine in orange.















Actually, I'll take just about anything GM in orange.









Even the Aztek.

brandondeleo
06-26-11, 09:42 AM
It is pretty awesome, I must say.

Rodya234
06-26-11, 09:46 AM
There was a parent at my school who had an orange Aztek Rally....it was terrible.

billc83
06-26-11, 09:47 AM
Every few years one of GM's top brass rip GM for their boneheaded management.

- John DeLorean in '79
- Ross Perot in the 80s
- Bob Lutz now

Stingroo
06-26-11, 09:49 AM
There was a parent at my school who had an orange Aztek Rally....it was terrible.

If it's one of the later ones without the plastic cladding - I'd drive it.

Too bad they were FWD. And powered by the 3400. They could have at LEAST gone 3800 in those... or waited a few years and put them out with that 300hp LS4 from the Monte Carlo SS/Impala SS/Bonneville GXP.


Ah well. I still think they look cool. lol

billc83
06-26-11, 09:50 AM
There was a parent at my school who had an orange Aztek Rally....it was Stingroo's dream.

Fixed.

The Aztek actually looked MUCH nicer without the plastic cladding when they updated it, and it did have a few odd features (like rear camper) that could redeem it if you didn't care about looks. Unfortunately, with cars and the opposite sex, everyone almost always cares about looks.

Stingroo
06-26-11, 09:54 AM
The camper was cool as crap. Same with the rear tailgate. When folded down it actually had molded seats in it for tailgating. HOW MUCH COOLER DO YOU NEED?!

brandondeleo
06-26-11, 10:00 AM
I love the enthusiasm around here! Haha. Speaking of ugly cars that people like, I love Priuses, DeLoreans, and Edsels. Three very awesome cars in my opinion. Uniqueness is a phenomenal quality in my book.

Rodya234
06-26-11, 10:07 AM
I like DeLoreans too, there was one near here for sale that I wanted to buy and install one of my spare 4.9L Cadillac engines in. It sold before I could call about it :(

billc83
06-26-11, 10:07 AM
I don't think many people will argue the DeLorean is a bad looking car. Even if the stainless steel turns you off, the styling is nice and clean. The Back to the Future crowd keeps DeLorean prices artificially high IMO - the rule of $25K is complete BS and without the movie they'd be $10-$15K tops.

I like the '58 Edsels, too! I don't know why they get such a bad rap for styling- the "toilet bowl" grille looks fine IMO and I LOVE the tail lights.

The Prius' styling, however, doesn't impress me. It's a good design from an efficiency point of view, but overall it's just meh.

Stingroo
06-26-11, 10:08 AM
You said Prius.




We can no longer be friends.


Also FYI the plural is Prii. (Even though, technically it should be Prium).

brandondeleo
06-26-11, 11:00 AM
Who decides the plural? Lol. I like the Prius mostly for its interior and unique styling. If you are truly environmentally conscious, you would stay away from them. And yes, Back to the Future keeps those prices far too high. I like DeLoreans, but they aren't exactly the best cars.

Stingroo
06-26-11, 11:44 AM
Well, Latin grammar decided upon "Prium". A silly contest by Toyota decided "Prii."

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-26-11, 01:45 PM
I love the Delorean so much I wanna take it behind the school and get it pregnant (I hope someone gets that 30 Rock reference). It's too bad those didn't have a better engine in them. That little 2.8 Volvo/Renualt V6 wasn't worth putting in there.

77CDV
06-26-11, 09:48 PM
Well, Latin grammar decided upon "Prium". A silly contest by Toyota decided "Prii."

Depends. Do you consider Prius first or fourth declention?

Stingroo
06-26-11, 10:12 PM
True.

Prius is hard to describe as a masculine noun. :lol:

Jesda
06-26-11, 10:24 PM
Lutz's contention is that GM always had great designers, but since the mid 70s they've been forced to follow the demands of analysts instead of being given the freedom to come up with something inspired.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-26-11, 11:45 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much spot on. The last time GM was truly making exciting stuff was under Lutz's reigns. Why was he outed?

Aron9000
06-26-11, 11:48 PM
^ I think he voluntary retired. Dude is getting up there, he's 79 now.

Jesda
06-26-11, 11:54 PM
Lutz has a tendency to piss off upper management. The Germans ran him out of Chrysler (along with most of his dream team, which resulted in Chrysler eating dirt) and at GM the feds probably weren't fond of his disdain for government. I'm sure he pissed off GM's board too.

Now you have elected officials taking credit for the Volt ("we did it! we saved GM and look what we made!") which was designed, initiated, and developed under his direction.



And while he's made several mistakes, its refreshing that he comes out and admits them. I suppose thats the level of honesty expected of a retiree who no longer cares about selling himself.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-11, 12:17 AM
He's not as egomaniacal or back-stabbing as that bastard Iacocca either.

ShadowLvr400
06-27-11, 09:24 AM
Wait a moment... isn't Lutz the guy who was in charge during this "non-car guy" leadership? Isn't he also the one who oversaw the death of the RWD sedan (Impala SS, Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood) the near death of the station wagon, the death of Oldsmobile, the death of Pontiac, the death of Saturn, the keeping of GMC (Can't we just put some shiny packages on a chevy truck?) I think him talking about non car guys might be a bit hypocritical. Oh yea, isn't he also the guy who suggested toying with the idea of a 4 door, 4 seat Corvette?!?!

Storz
06-27-11, 10:45 AM
I need to get this, sounds like an awesome read

amunderdog
06-27-11, 11:07 AM
Let us not forget this dummy.
Roger Bonham Smith http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Smith,_Roger_B.

Critics say Smith's greatest flaw was overemphasizing that bottom-line mentality rather than working on improving product quality.

"He was a bean counter," says Owen Bieber, who was president of the United Auto Workers during much of Smith's tenure. "Suddenly, GM started making a lot of cars that looked alike. I used to tell him that you can't have a Cadillac that looks like a Chevrolet and expect to sell them both."

Jesda
06-27-11, 12:02 PM
Wait a moment... isn't Lutz the guy who was in charge during this "non-car guy" leadership? Isn't he also the one who oversaw the death of the RWD sedan (Impala SS, Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood) the near death of the station wagon, the death of Oldsmobile, the death of Pontiac, the death of Saturn, the keeping of GMC (Can't we just put some shiny packages on a chevy truck?) I think him talking about non car guys might be a bit hypocritical. Oh yea, isn't he also the guy who suggested toying with the idea of a 4 door, 4 seat Corvette?!?!

No. He was at Chrysler until 1999.

Oldsmobile was marked for death years before he arrived and no new product was planned or invested, so by the time he showed up in September 2001 there was no time or money to design and build a whole new lineup of cars for Olds. It was a zombie.

Saturn was a loser from day one.

What he was opposed to was the loss of Pontiac; he says he wished it would have continued as a brand for sporty RWD cars -- he championed the G8 and GTO which unfortunately succumbed to the devaluation of the US dollar since they were Australian imports. He was a major force behind the Solstice and Sky. The Alpha platform that's going to underpin the new Cadillac ATS was originally going to be a small RWD Pontiac. Pontiac may have continued losing money anyway.

GMC only exists today because the brand is hugely profitable. That's the same reason we still have Buick. Getting rid of GMC would be like Toyota getting rid of Lexus. Sure, its the same or similar hardware, but the price markup means profits. Logically, the two brands have no purpose in GM's current brand portfolio, but effectively, they bring in a boatload of money. The federal government decided, after some examination, that it might be foolish to end two profitable brands if the goal was to turn a profit on what the US treasury invested. Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer were money losers.


As for four-door Corvettes, here's the actual quote:

In addition to Reuss's comments yesterday on a new El Camino, Lutz went on to tell The Age "There's a possibility of a premium Chevrolet sedan that would be sold in limited numbers. Think of it as a kind of four-door Corvette"


"Think of it as a kind of four-door Corvette" is not "lets build a Corvette with four doors"


Its the same as saying "think of this premium ice cream as heaven in the form of dairy", which could be misconstrued [by unethical, sensationalist journalists] as saying "this guy thinks eating ice cream will bring you closer to God"


The nuances of language are difficult to convey in a media environment that likes to take quotes out of context.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-11, 06:13 PM
Roger Smith is the bean counter CEO that brought us Saturn and badge engineering, and wanted to kill the B&D Bodies. He's about as opposite of Bob Lutz as you can possibly get.

drewsdeville
06-27-11, 06:20 PM
While it didn't get developed to it's full potential, I think Saturn was a great idea when it was introduced. :hide:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-11, 06:23 PM
It was an overlap from day one. Saturn was introduced to fight off the import competion from Toyota, Honda and Mazda (VW to a lesser extent) by offering small, cheap cars. That business plan made sense. But to make it fully operational, GM should have discontinued the Cavalier, Sunbird, Cutlass Calais and Skylark so GM wouldn't be competing against it's self in the market. They never did that and Saturn languished on for 20 years, under the shadow of the bigger divisions.


Speaking of Bob Lutz's time at Chrysler, was it under his leadership or Iacocca's that Chrysler introduced the cab-forward theme in 1993? IIRC, Iacocca left in '92 or so, but would Lutz have thought those up?

drewsdeville
06-27-11, 06:24 PM
Definitely. I'm not saying there wasn't a mistake made, but I don't think Saturn was the mistake.

Jesda
06-27-11, 07:20 PM
Iacocca gets some credit for the LH cars because that platform's development was influenced heavily by Francois Castaing who joined Chrysler from AMC. So, thanks to the acquisition of AMC, Chrysler got the Jeep brand as well as [indirectly] its most successful mass-market sedan in decades. The fast-moving platform development teams that produced the Viper, Neon, Ram, and Intrepid should be credited to Lutz and Castaing, as well as Eaton and a few other executive managers.


Definitely. I'm not saying there wasn't a mistake made, but I don't think Saturn was the mistake.

Agreement. And on top of that, GM didn't apply any of the business lessons it learned from the experiment.

billc83
06-27-11, 09:54 PM
It was an overlap from day one. Saturn was introduced to fight off the import competion from Toyota, Honda and Mazda (VW to a lesser extent) by offering small, cheap cars. That business plan made sense. But to make it fully operational, GM should have discontinued the Cavalier, Sunbird, Cutlass Calais and Skylark so GM wouldn't be competing against it's self in the market. They never did that and Saturn languished on for 20 years, under the shadow of the bigger divisions.


Speaking of Bob Lutz's time at Chrysler, was it under his leadership or Iacocca's that Chrysler introduced the cab-forward theme in 1993? IIRC, Iacocca left in '92 or so, but would Lutz have thought those up?

Yes, but Saturn was first announced before the J-Cars (and Geo) were on the market. But a good idea in '81 doesn't equal a good idea in '90.

Saturn also received a ton of backlash from the other GM divisions, and corporate overlords would do everything in their power to undermine the Saturn brand.

77CDV
06-27-11, 10:35 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much spot on. The last time GM was truly making exciting stuff was under Lutz's reigns. Why was he outed?

Yes, but the designers were also hamstrung by federal regulations that heavily influence what is and isn't feasible.

And, I think you meant "ousted", unless you know something the rest of us don't. :lol:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-11, 11:11 PM
:lol: thanks Craig.

orconn
06-27-11, 11:12 PM
As far as contemporary automotive design goes I think far too much credibility is given to the directs of Federal laws. The lack of creativity and individuality has more to do with the dumb adherence to current auto fashion, as blah as it is, than with the dictates of Federal regulation. All the materials used today allow designers so much flexibility in how they design and still meet federal regulations. Never have designers had the flexibility that today's materials permit in meeting the wide range of safety equipment requirements. The sad state of car design has more to do with the lack of ideas and creativity on the part of the designers than it has with the constrictions of meeting regulations.

Jesda
06-27-11, 11:27 PM
Designers have some pretty wild ideas. I blame management for stifling creativity and following the pack.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-11, 11:32 PM
Exactly. If you look at Chrysler in the last 25 years, they had the most wild concepts come to showrooms with the least amount of change. Open minded management can be thanked for that.

orconn
06-27-11, 11:49 PM
I agree, but it also has to do with the deigners educational background,. A vast majority of of the influential designers came out of the Art Center for Design in Pasadena, California. Today's designs do seem to have come from the same source.

Playdrv4me
06-28-11, 01:18 AM
I guess since we're all sitting down at the Aztek-Anonymous roundtable here, I will also come forward and admit I kinda dig the Aztek Rally and especially in that orange color with the chrome wheels. The first gen Aztek is a different story (and thus why it lasted a grand total of a year).

Stingroo
06-28-11, 01:25 AM
Ian is now officially one of the coolest members of this website.

Jesda
06-28-11, 01:26 AM
You probably "kinda dig" the Prius in seamist green too.

Stingroo
06-28-11, 01:29 AM
If that is true, I fully retract my previous statement.

There shall be no digging of any Prii.

Rodya234
06-28-11, 01:37 AM
I saw a Prius get stuck in a ditch once. I'm sure that getting it out required some digging. :yup:

Stingroo
06-28-11, 01:40 AM
It shouldn't have been done.

Jesda
06-28-11, 01:57 AM
If that is true, I fully retract my previous statement.

There shall be no digging of any Prii.

I think its important that the public knows that Ian (PlayDrv4me) was once dead set on buying a Prius a few years ago, and I had to talk him out of it with an uncomfortably necessary level of fervor.

Playdrv4me
06-28-11, 02:12 AM
Oh God... Weiner face...

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/files/2011/06/Weiner_Face-306x393.jpg

Alright, let's discuss the Prius for a moment...

I've always fervently hated everything the Prius represents to its die-hard followers. I also hate that people run to that car without even thinking twice when someone brings up the subject of fuel economy. If I were going to buy a car for fuel economy's sake? It would be a 2006 Pre-Bluetec Mercedes Benz E320 CDI... A 43mpg road cruiser on low sulfur diesel.

That said, I also thoroughly enjoy technology... and when the Prius Gen 2 first appeared, it was the cheapest way to get a CABIN FULL of the latest gadgets, plus HIDs and LED tail lights on a brand new car, for the price of many premium econoboxes. Well that and my employer at the time was signing over a check for $3000.00, no questions asked, if you provided written proof from any Toyota dealer that you purchased one. That was 3 grand in my pocket, plus all the tax incentives.

I don't hate the stupid car, I hate everything it represents to short-sighted tree huggers. Also, not that Gen 2 was necessarily a looker, but the current redesign is absolutely DREADFUL and has finally received typical Toyota plastification and deletion of features.

Jesda
06-28-11, 02:26 AM
So what you're saying is that you'd drive a Yugo if someone stuffed it with LEDs and LCDs and Hello Kitties.

http://fatherchristmas.net.au/onlinestore/product_images/p/593/led_20rice_20lights_20gy_1___69212_zoom.jpg
http://www.gotparty.com/party_lights_rice_lights_2.jpg

Playdrv4me
06-28-11, 02:58 AM
So what you're saying is that you'd drive a Yugo if someone stuffed it with LEDs and LCDs and Hello Kitties.

http://fatherchristmas.net.au/onlinestore/product_images/p/593/led_20rice_20lights_20gy_1___69212_zoom.jpg
http://www.gotparty.com/party_lights_rice_lights_2.jpg

Absolutely. And for the record, the Yugo has more character than the Prius, and was available in orange.

brandondeleo
06-28-11, 03:00 AM
The Prius is a nice car in my opinion, but only because of the interior qualities and styling. I like unique vehicles. If you can like Aztecs, I can like Prii/Priuses/Prium whatever. Lol. If you are in the market for ecological awareness, NEVER buy a Prius. They are more damaging to the environment than my DeVille.

Playdrv4me
06-28-11, 03:26 AM
It's AZTEK! Aztecs are Indians! (Or maybe *were* Indians, lol).

Better than "Aztex" I suppose, saw that on the local CL the other day.

brandondeleo
06-28-11, 03:34 AM
I didn't even think about it when I typed it. Lol. Creature of habit.

Rodya234
06-28-11, 04:50 AM
The interior of the Prius sucks. A huge slate of plastic with ugly green displays and gauges that aren't in front of the steering wheel (words cannot express how much I hate that.) And it has to have a stupid backup alarm because you can't even see out of it. I don't know why there's so much hype surrounding a car that's so cheap, slow, ugly, uneconomical compared to the real economy cars of Europe (i.e: Volkswagen Scirocco TDI- 67.3mpg hwy...), and expensive considering there are people paying more than MSRP for them.










Smugmobile.

:rant2:

brandondeleo
06-28-11, 05:17 AM
Hehe... As of now, I have 157 posts and you have 1507. That's fun. I'm sleep deprived. I have the right to be an easily amused moron.

Stingroo
06-28-11, 08:50 AM
You will soon find that it is quite easy to rack up far too many posts in an unbelievably short time period on this forum.


:hide:

Rodya234
06-28-11, 09:03 AM
Ever since I've gotten out of school and become nocturnal, I find that posting here is pretty good entertainment at 3am when you have nothing better or more constructive to do :highfive:

brandondeleo
06-28-11, 09:37 AM
I work graveyard shift, so all of my posting is between midnight and like 6am. Lol.

ShadowLvr400
06-28-11, 10:42 AM
F the prius. I'm going to make my 73 Lincoln a green machine with better fuel economy. :) Cummins 6L I6 turbo diesel (weighs less than the original 460) torque monster, 5 speed slush transmission, and a reasonable 3.08 posi rear in it. I expect to get that old tank into the 40's on fuel economy. Maybe more if I plan things properly. I want to pretty much be able to idle at 55-60.

Aron9000
06-29-11, 01:07 AM
F the prius. I'm going to make my 73 Lincoln a green machine with better fuel economy. :) Cummins 6L I6 turbo diesel (weighs less than the original 460) torque monster, 5 speed slush transmission, and a reasonable 3.08 posi rear in it. I expect to get that old tank into the 40's on fuel economy. Maybe more if I plan things properly. I want to pretty much be able to idle at 55-60.

If fuel economy is your goal, go with the 4 cylinder, 3.9 liter, 4BT cummins engine. Its the same design as the 5.9 Cummins 6BT found in a Dodge truck, just minus two cylinders.

brandondeleo
06-29-11, 05:43 AM
:lies:The biggest misconception about fuel economy is that 4 cylinders do better than 6 or 8 cylinders. It is all about power-to-weight ratio. A 4 cylinder pulling a car that isn't on the smaller side will get poor economy because it has to try too hard. My 2.4L I4 Chrysler Sebring got around 20mpg, while my Mom's 3.0L V6 G6 gets around 26, and they are roughly the same size and weight. Given the size of ANY Lincoln, go with the 5.9. Just my 2 cents.

Jesda
06-29-11, 10:48 AM
LOL, I just read Chad's 30 Rock reference. Well done. Best sitcom on NBC right now, by far.

gdwriter
06-29-11, 03:41 PM
The biggest misconception about fuel economy is that 4 cylinders do better than 6 or 8 cylinders. It is all about power-to-weight ratio. A 4 cylinder pulling a car that isn't on the smaller side will get poor economy because it has to try too hard. My 2.4L I4 Chrysler Sebring got around 20mpg, while my Mom's 3.0L V6 G6 gets around 26, and they are roughly the same size and weight.I average 22 MPG with the Seville. 25-27 MPG in straight highway driving. Perfectly satisfied with that.

I drove an OSU motor pool '04 Prius to Portland and back for work last fall and hated it. Not just for being ugly, slow and weird, but it was so noisy I ended up with a ferocious headache. Posted a review here (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/215249-200-miles-prius-not-choice.html).

JimmyH
06-29-11, 05:33 PM
Well, Latin grammar decided upon "Prium". A silly contest by Toyota decided "Prii."

gdwriter was the winner of that contest

Stingroo
06-29-11, 05:54 PM
I voted for Prii too, that's what I've always called them - lol.

brandondeleo
06-30-11, 03:36 AM
I average 22 MPG with the Seville. 25-27 MPG in straight highway driving. Perfectly satisfied with that. Yeah, my beast of a DeVille averages around 18-19mpg, and I am fine with that, considering the size and power of the car. If you want luxury, you have to pay the price. =]

brandondeleo
06-30-11, 03:37 AM
And when I get on the freeway for a while, the mileage can average more than 25. LOVE it.

77CDV
07-01-11, 12:57 AM
^This is why I'm looking forward to my road trip to AZ in a few weeks. It'll be a nice chance to let the ETC stretch his legs.

brandondeleo
07-01-11, 03:35 AM
I want an ETC. 2001/2. That will be my next car.

77CDV
07-01-11, 10:23 PM
They're a lot of fun, very smooth and very fast. It can cruise all day at 80 like it's nothing, and still return 24+ mpg.

brandondeleo
07-01-11, 10:49 PM
The problem is finding a post-2000 Eldorado around here in my budget. There is not a very wide selection of them around here, and the ones that are on the market are horribly overpriced...

Jesda
07-01-11, 10:54 PM
I was just looking at them tonight. The values have skyrocketed. $8k for a 2000. $4k for a 1992. They are selling for double what a Seville would sell for.

Its nuts, but they're beautiful.

brandondeleo
07-01-11, 10:57 PM
This one is intriguing. A little over an hour away, too. http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/cto/2460917189.html The only thing that concerns me is the rear ride height... Bad air bags? Maybe.

77CDV
07-02-11, 12:00 AM
I think it's an optical illusion.

Rodya234
07-02-11, 04:49 AM
I really wanted an Eldorado too, but I went to look at three 2000+ cars, and they all had terrible fit/finish issues (all had 100k+ though) and the owners wanted way more than I would offer. Then I looked into it more and decided that I thought '98+ Sevilles were better cars anyways, and that's eventually where I ended up. Eldorados are good cars though, and I think any Vin 9 Cadillac is cool. :cool2:

If it were my money, I wouldn't buy a Cadillac (or any other luxury car for that matter) with much more than 100k on it, unless I knew it had been really well taken care of.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-02-11, 08:04 AM
I saw the most beautiful crimson '01-02 ETC yesterday....such a gorgeous car...

Playdrv4me
07-03-11, 04:15 AM
There is no doubt the Eldo has the more timeless and elegant Cadillac design, but the last generation Seville was more of a total package overall.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-03-11, 09:32 AM
Oh, totally agreed Ian. If the 98 Eldorados got all the updates the 98 Sevilles did, it would have leveled the playing field.