: Best place for Chicago deep dish pizza?



Night Wolf
06-08-11, 07:13 PM
In Chicago of course! I'll be there for a few hours Saturday. Won't really have time for tourist stuff or much else. But, I figured it would be a great time to try real deep dish pizza to see what all the buzz is about... and of course, how it compares to my hometown NY thin crust. So for those in/familer with the area, where's the best place(s) to go? Looks like I'll be taking I294-I80-I65, any good places along the way?

JimmyH
06-08-11, 08:26 PM
Nick and Brunos (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&biw=1298&bih=702&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=nick+and+bruno%27s+franklin+park+il&fb=1&gl=us&hq=nick+and+bruno%27s&hnear=0x880e4a91443293bb:0xd968b8d3d933e0b2,Frankl in+Park,+IL&cid=3538368748328899540)

Not far off of 294, general vicinity of O'Hare

Night Wolf
06-08-11, 08:58 PM
I'll be flying into Midway, getting picked up and heading about 30min West - then I'll be on my own. Though I suppose I won't mind a bit of a drive around Chicago.

gary88
06-08-11, 09:09 PM
I'm a fan of Lou Malnati's. Giordanos is a big favorite for most as well.

If you have some free time let me know :thumbsup:

Night Wolf
06-08-11, 09:59 PM
dood, clear your PM box!

So far these all sound good! I asked at work, someone said they've been to Chicago a lot and mentioned Pizzeria Uno... I just looked and said we had those in NY... I want the real stuff!

96Fleetwood
06-08-11, 10:37 PM
Giordanos is the tourist favorite.

My personal favorite is Dan's Pizza in Downers Grove:
http://www.danspizza.net/


Where are you headed?

JimmyH
06-08-11, 10:46 PM
Giordano's is very good for franchise pizza (I know, I have at least once per month) But nothing will beat a ma-and-pa pizzeria.

MacMuse
06-08-11, 10:53 PM
Giordano's is the best for first impressions. Everyone will have their favorite local specialists, but Giordano's is the nearest thing to an original/traditional style. Be sure to leave adequate time as these monsters really take 40+ minutes to cook. If you pick out a particular location call ahead and pre-order, or plan on a leisurely meal with a nice pitcher of beer on the table and plenty of good conversation.

Stick with the traditional toppings like sausage, mushroom, green pepper, onion, black olives. Avoid greasy items like pepperoni, they don't make for a satisfying stuffed experience.

EDIT: oh yeah, make sure you're going for stuffed, and not deep dish (ala Pizzeria Uno). They are two different things. Deep dish is more like a casserole, while stuffed is made like a pie with crust (dough) on top.

EChas3
06-08-11, 11:22 PM
I've always liked Gino's East (near north side) it's a great experience, but there are many good choices.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-08-11, 11:35 PM
Giordanos. Been there 2-3 times, always impressed.

gdwriter
06-09-11, 01:14 AM
Dominos










:rofl:

JimmyH
06-09-11, 12:16 PM
domino, yum

MacMuse
06-09-11, 12:37 PM
Dominos

:rofl:


domino, yum

:zzloser:

I should revoke both your driving privileges for a week, but you'd probably just order more.

JimmyH
06-09-11, 12:51 PM
I had dominos years ago. It was like eating cardboard. I haven't tried since they adopted the new "recipe."

stoveguyy
06-09-11, 01:40 PM
deep dish is crust, cheese, sauce. with sauce on top. so they take a deep dish style and add a top crust? like a super calzone? thread is about deep dish, not stuffed. we only have thin crust style pizza in mpls.

MacMuse
06-09-11, 02:37 PM
I had dominos years ago. It was like eating cardboard. I haven't tried since they adopted the new "recipe."

Now it's like cardboard soaked in garlic butter. aww crap - now I've got a Pappa John's ad banner at the bottom of the page. How long is that going to hang around. Maybe I can get Playboy ads if I mention Hustler and Penthouse??? Can I haz plz? I hear teh bunny mag is now available in a well done on-line form, with access to the archives. ahh, I can hear it now... 'look son, here's a picture of your grandma when she was 18 years old.'. :jawdrop: dang, I'm hijacking my own reply. sry


deep dish is crust, cheese, sauce. with sauce on top. so they take a deep dish style and add a top crust? like a super calzone? thread is about deep dish, not stuffed. we only have thin crust style pizza in mpls.

Deep dish travels well across the country, but stuffed remains more of a Chicago thang. In Chicago, think of either form as starting from a traditional desert pie - your apple or pecan for example - and going about an inch higher and more vertical on the sides. Weak copies of deep dish are usually too short.

JimmyH
06-09-11, 03:00 PM
Nick&Brunos does it the way it should be done. Crust sauce toppings cheese, crust sauce topping cheese. Double decker baby.

Sauce on top ftl. I always scrape most of it off when I have giordano's because it gets dried out, and sour-tasting.

Night Wolf
06-09-11, 06:41 PM
Giordanos is the tourist favorite.

My personal favorite is Dan's Pizza in Downers Grove:
http://www.danspizza.net/


Where are you headed?

Picking up a car. Currently unsure if the car will be driven to the airport and I'll pick it up there, or I'll go back to where it is (Downers Grove I think).

I think I did mean stuffed, not deep-dish. That is the classic Chicago pizza, right? Over the years when pizza debates come up I often hear "but you need to try real Chicago style pizza"... being from NY, I grew up around thin crust - most excellent when done properly. So stuffed crust it is.

I wouldn't mind meeting up with some of the Chicago folks - problem is, I won't have much time nor will I know exactly when it is. After I pick up the car, I want to stop at one of the local car dealers to inquire about some things. The car's radio apparently doesn't work. I'll check fuses and ground - otherwise I'm not driving cross country without jamz - in which case I'll stop at Best Buy or similar to pick up a new head unit and install it.

I don't know what time I'd be done with everything, nor how long all that would take so I don't want to set a time for anything just yet. If anyone local is going to be free Saturday around noonish, then send me a PM and maybe we can meet up for some food. Of course, this is all if the car doesn't turn out to be a rats nest and there are major things hiding from the 50+ pictures I saw of it, decide to pass on it and fly back - but I'm willing to be very forgiving for this particular car when it comes to my standards for the money spent.

gary88
06-09-11, 07:09 PM
dood, clear your PM box!

So far these all sound good! I asked at work, someone said they've been to Chicago a lot and mentioned Pizzeria Uno... I just looked and said we had those in NY... I want the real stuff!

cleared

Stingroo
06-09-11, 07:12 PM
What is said car? e30 M3? Another Coupe DeVille in the proper color? A wagon? Details!

Night Wolf
06-09-11, 07:47 PM
What is said car? e30 M3? Another Coupe DeVille in the proper color? A wagon? Details!

I can't spill the beans! Plus who'd want to be bothered with all the details? But those are all good possibilites among many others. e30M3 would be great next to Noelle! e28 M5 can be had cheaper with sweet I6 sound in a truely raw sport sedan experience. Though I'd really like an e34 M5, and e34 in general have really grown on me to the point where I really want one. Funny you mention wagons - they grew on me too, in e34 touring (wagon) flavor - that'd be a real sweet parts hauler! Could also be a Cadillac. I miss my Coupe, 1 of 119 - good luck finding another and in decent shape at that. I also really like the '95 Eldorado ETC, I remember when I had my Coupe I'd say to myself that would be a car I'd sell the Coupe for - Crimson Pearl, factory chrome wheels and tinted windows - now that's a good looking car! Allante's also have my attention... the engine is sideways and the drivers floor doesn't look right... oh yeah, cause it's missing a pedal. Still though, Caddy convertible! Plus all the others.... there are just way too many vehicles I'm interested in...

Stingroo
06-09-11, 08:52 PM
My dad's cousin has a MINTY MINT Allante that he's put quite a bit of work into. I love that car.

I saw a funky blue one today. Not sure if it was a factory color, but it was definitely weird. I'd never seen one in any color other than white, red, or silver before today....

CadzillaTN
06-09-11, 09:22 PM
40 min is right. 1.5 orange sodas waiting but it was worth it... I would have been drinking beer but I was driving my V and not from Chicago, so I wanted to be on my toes.

My cousins took me to Giordano's.. This was my first slice. I said "wait- I gotta get a picture of this before I bite into it"

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y332/memphisctsv/IMG_8653.jpg

MacMuse
06-09-11, 09:35 PM
Dang, I could go for a Giordano's after that pic. But I'm out of town this weekend.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-09-11, 11:20 PM
I can't spill the beans! Plus who'd want to be bothered with all the details? But those are all good possibilites among many others. e30M3 would be great next to Noelle! e28 M5 can be had cheaper with sweet I6 sound in a truely raw sport sedan experience. Though I'd really like an e34 M5, and e34 in general have really grown on me to the point where I really want one. Funny you mention wagons - they grew on me too, in e34 touring (wagon) flavor - that'd be a real sweet parts hauler! Could also be a Cadillac. I miss my Coupe, 1 of 119 - good luck finding another and in decent shape at that. I also really like the '95 Eldorado ETC, I remember when I had my Coupe I'd say to myself that would be a car I'd sell the Coupe for - Crimson Pearl, factory chrome wheels and tinted windows - now that's a good looking car! Allante's also have my attention... the engine is sideways and the drivers floor doesn't look right... oh yeah, cause it's missing a pedal. Still though, Caddy convertible! Plus all the others.... there are just way too many vehicles I'm interested in...

Uh Oh! Rick's being coy.....my guess is that he bought another Cadillac (bout damn time)!

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 08:43 AM
Uh Oh! Rick's being coy.....my guess is that he bought another Cadillac (bout damn time)!

Yeah but then I'd have to relearn how to drive again - with only two pedals, an autotragic and all... Unless it is a manual transmission Caddy... Or one that's been converted as such... well, in 24hrs I should see the car in person - I'm excited! I can help narrow the field down though - I have referred to it as a ''car''... So good chance it isn't another Jeep ;)

hueterm
06-10-11, 09:06 AM
I can't spill the beans! Plus who'd want to be bothered with all the details?

Gary D...

:stirpot:

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 02:18 PM
Gary D...

:stirpot:

You see what I did there :)

Who knows, maybe I'll be getting into a whole new automotive sub culture with my next purchase...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j6/st_dragn_wagen/100_0774.jpg

MacMuse
06-10-11, 02:28 PM
hmm, picking up the car around Downer's Grove, home of several Corvette specialty shops. hmmm.

JimmyH
06-10-11, 03:23 PM
This was my first slice. I said "wait- I gotta get a picture of this before I bite into it"

^Jesda's alter-ego? lulz

OffThaHorseCEO
06-10-11, 04:14 PM
My dad's cousin has a MINTY MINT Allante that he's put quite a bit of work into. I love that car.

I saw a funky blue one today. Not sure if it was a factory color, but it was definitely weird. I'd never seen one in any color other than white, red, or silver before today....

The Allante had 2 blues available from the factory, one was montana blue which i THINK was only available in 93
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/ebaum_allante/montanabluetx.jpg

the other i dont know the name of but have seen it referred to as ice blue
http://images.lemonfree.com/1G6VR318XKU102485_6.jpg

Stingroo
06-10-11, 05:36 PM
Yeah it was definitely the darker one. I would have asked the guy but we were traveling in different directions.

orconn
06-10-11, 05:38 PM
The Allante had 2 blues available from the factory, one was montana blue which i THINK was only available in 93
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/ebaum_allante/montanabluetx.jpg

the other i dont know the name of but have seen it referred to as ice blue
http://images.lemonfree.com/1G6VR318XKU102485_6.jpg

If anyone is interested, I have a brand new set of the chrome 16" Allante/Seville wheels just like the set on Llante at the top, but with chrome center caps with the emblems like sown on the bottom car. These wheels are brand new and have never been mounted with tires or put on a car. Let me know if you are interested in buying them.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 08:06 PM
You see what I did there :)

Who knows, maybe I'll be getting into a whole new automotive sub culture with my next purchase...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j6/st_dragn_wagen/100_0774.jpg

Yep, that's you. Clearly the best possible idea.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 08:51 PM
The Allante had 2 blues available from the factory, one was montana blue which i THINK was only available in 93
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/ebaum_allante/montanabluetx.jpg

the other i dont know the name of but have seen it referred to as ice blue
http://images.lemonfree.com/1G6VR318XKU102485_6.jpg

"ice blue" = :nono: Montana Blue = :bouncy:

Oh what that car could have been if it was RWD and with a proper manual transmission behind the Northstar...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 09:01 PM
People who own those don't seem to complain about it being automatic and FWD... Its chief competitor, the SL, was only offered with a six speed manual for a very short time. This isn't a corvette or a BMW, it's a cruiser.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 09:17 PM
People who own those don't seem to complain about it being automatic and FWD... Its chief competitor, the SL, was only offered with a six speed manual for a very short time. This isn't a corvette or a BMW, it's a cruiser.

The same could be said about every FWD Cadillac.

Then those same folks wonder why they got the rep they did and weren't really taken seriously :banghead:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 09:26 PM
That doesn't even make sense.

The full sized deville would be better if it was RWD and a six speed manual? People who buy those things don't care if it's RWD or six speed manual. If someone wanted YOUR kind of car, they wouldn't buy a deville. They offer the CTS in that configuration, but I'd guess that they sell 2 to 1 automatic v. manual.

orconn
06-10-11, 09:28 PM
Anyone who thinks an Allante is a sports car or even a serious "grand turismo" is seriously mistaken. Just like its' Mercedes counter parts it is a nice boulevard cruiser, nothing wrong with that, and that is exactly what many buyers were looking for!

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 09:53 PM
That doesn't even make sense.

The full sized deville would be better if it was RWD and a six speed manual? People who buy those things don't care if it's RWD or six speed manual. If someone wanted YOUR kind of car, they wouldn't buy a deville. They offer the CTS in that configuration, but I'd guess that they sell 2 to 1 automatic v. manual.

lol, Chad - you are arguing just to argue.

It made perfect sense. How many times over the weeks/months/years has it been brought up that the 90s Cadillacs weren't taken seriously by buyers of competing German cars? Why weren't they? In many cases they had more power and looked great...

What is the main reason the "sporty" 90s Cadillac models don't even get a 2nd look by most folks wanting a "drivers" car? Is it because of the 300hp DOHC V8 in an excellent looking, well proportioned body?

How many owners of said cars on this very site have said they would prefer if the car was RWD? How many times did a certain someone say they much preferred the RWD layout of their high end luxury car when compared to their prior FWD luxury car? How many owners of RWD luxury cars actually say they wish their car was FWD?

Where did I say a DeVille would be better with a 6spd manual? In fact, the DeVille is probably the best suited car of Cadillac's lineup for FWD. Atleast it's not trying to be something it isn't. It's not trying to be a sport sedan (Seville), a sporty personal luxury car (Eldorado) or a roadster (Allante). It's simply a full out classic American luxury car and that's pretty obvious.

I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this, other than supporting the use of FWD in Cadillac's full line up as well as their use of only automatic transmissions in their sporty or performance oriented cars.

The CTS sells 2:1 auto:manual? That's pretty darn good. What is that trying to prove? That more people would rather be lazy and put a shifter in "D" instead of being a bit more involved in their driving experience? So what? The Camry alone outsells Cadillac as a whole by 2:1 annually. So what?

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:01 PM
Anyone who thinks an Allante is a sports car or even a serious "grand turismo" is seriously mistaken. Just like its' Mercedes counter parts it is a nice boulevard cruiser, nothing wrong with that, and that is exactly what many buyers were looking for!

I don't think anyone here is trying to say the Allante is a "sports car".

How about we look at how the car was originally marketed?

tLQUiFxMgDw

"Luxury Roadster"

"World-Class Road Car"

Perhaps I am mistaken to think that FWD doesn't fit in those categories. How many other cars in that market segment were FWD?

Allante sold for $57k new. That is around $103k today. Even more pricey than the XLR when sold. Would FWD be accepted in that car? It's not really trying to be a "sports car" either, and itself is also a cruiser. The automatic is fitting, but it was RWD this time around.

OffThaHorseCEO
06-10-11, 10:01 PM
to be honest, i wouldnt want a manual in the allante. mowt owners are older guys and i think they would agree as well.like ive said before and like orconn pointed out i dont see the allante as a sports car, more of a nice smooth cruiser with a bit of power to spare

JimmyH
06-10-11, 10:17 PM
The same could be said about every FWD Cadillac.

Then those same folks wonder why they got the rep they did and weren't really taken seriously :banghead:


I'll let you in on a little secret: the masses want front wheel drive. We the enthusiast don't. But we the enthusiast represent a very small slice of the pie.

Except for me. I am a very large slice of pie. As soon as bigjim comes along, he'll back me up.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:18 PM
to be honest, i wouldnt want a manual in the allante. mowt owners are older guys and i think they would agree as well.like ive said before and like orconn pointed out i dont see the allante as a sports car, more of a nice smooth cruiser with a bit of power to spare

Again, just to clarify - I never said Allante's should have ONLY came with manuals.

If it was my choice? They would all be RWD with a proper 4-wheel independent suspension, and a manual transmission offered, not standard, but an option. Even if low production. I'm sure some of the folks that bought them new would have ordered it like that and enjoyed that.

My following comment:

Oh what that car could have been if it was RWD and with a proper manual transmission behind the Northstar...


Was simply me stating my preference. Not an absolute, not how they ALL should have been. But if the car was offered in such a configuration - what the possibilities could have been. How many folks would it open the market to? and how I would have one in my driveway, probably in place of the e30 right now. Does that mean the original buyer would have been a gear head? No, just like original buyers of e30s were probably not gear heads either.

JimmyH
06-10-11, 10:19 PM
Even more pricey than the XLR when sold. Would FWD be accepted in that car? It's not really trying to be a "sports car" either, and itself is also a cruiser.

I would like to see you repeat that after a ride in Marvin's car.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 10:23 PM
The CTS sells 2:1 auto:manual? That's pretty darn good. What is that trying to prove? That more people would rather be lazy and put a shifter in "D" instead of being a bit more involved in their driving experience? So what? The Camry alone outsells Cadillac as a whole by 2:1 annually. So what?

What that proves is that people don't care as much as you think they do about manual transmissions. If everyone was like you, there'd be no automatic transmissions. You've said it yourself that by having an automatic transmission and FWD, a Seville, Eldorado and Allante are poseur sports sedans and sports cars, and nothing a true "driver" wants. Well if that were the case, nobody would ever "settle" for any of these cars, instead buying the RWD/manual competitor. Well lots of people (the members on the site for one) are very satisfied with their FWD, automatic cars, and they may wish that they were RWD or a manual, but it's not the end of the world that they aren't. We wish things about our cars all the time. I know you won't buy any of these, because they're automatic and FWD, but lots of us still find them to be a very desirable and satisfactory car. I myself think that RWD is fun to drive, more so than FWD, but I also realize that in the snowbelt, FWD is much more useful as a daily driver and that's why I went with that. I myself don't find driving a stick shift to be particularly fun, and I've driven all sorts of them. The most fun I ever had behind the wheel was a '95 Z28, with the 4L60-E. Just drop it into drive and GO! No messing around with any clutch or 3rd pedal, just go go go! But, that's just my humble opinion.

JimmyH
06-10-11, 10:26 PM
You da man Chad!

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:29 PM
I'll let you in on a little secret: the masses want front wheel drive. We the enthusiast don't. But we the enthusiast represent a very small slice of the pie.

Except for me. I am a very large slice of pie. As soon as bigjim comes along, he'll back me up.

The masses?

We aren't talking about Hondas and Chevys. We are talking about Cadillac.

How many owners of Mercedes, BMW and Audi (who Cadillac was trying to compete with) would prefer their car to be FWD? I've been to many different automotive forums, somehow the "I wish my car was FWD" topic never comes up. Not just online either - what about in person? Ever met a proud MB or BMW owner that dislikes the RWD layout of their car and would prefer FWD?

On the other hand, how many times is that mentioned on the Cadillac site? I can personally attest to many folks over the years saying both online automotive forums and in person - saying how they would really give Cadillac (usually Eldorado or Seville of the 90s) a look if they were RWD. Atleast most folks I've interacted with interested in a car other than an appliance have preferred RWD - be it for driving dynamics, ease of maintenace or whatever.

Maybe I'm alone on this and the new "in" thing is FWD, and automatics only - period. In that case, GM hit a home run in the 90s. Stuffing high-powered engines in "sport sedans" and "Personal luxury cars" in the form of Buick, Oldsmobile and Cadillac, as well as the "driving excitment" divsion, Pontiac - all that power sent to the front wheels only by way of a slushbox. How could they ever have gone wrong?

hueterm
06-10-11, 10:29 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1993-Cadillac-Coupe-Deville-only-45-000-miles-88-93-/110696517930?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item19c606d12a#ht_40954wt_1167

Chicago?

Pizza?

Vagueness?

Bidding ended?

Rick's old stolen car...?

FWD?

4 spd Auto?

Mystery?

Thoughts?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 10:31 PM
Thanks Jimmy,


But in all honesty, a dictionary definition of a sports car is something small and light, with RWD and a manual transmission, so I'll give Rick that. HOWEVER, if a car doesn't have either or both of those things, that doesn't make it un-sporty.

slk230mb
06-10-11, 10:33 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1993-Cadillac-Coupe-Deville-only-45-000-miles-88-93-/110696517930?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item19c606d12a#ht_40954wt_1167

Chicago?

Pizza?

Vagueness?

Bidding ended?

Rick's old stolen car...?

FWD?

4 spd Auto?

Mystery?

Thoughts?

Mileage seems off. I don't remember Rick's old coupe having pinstripes or gold emblems.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:35 PM
What that proves is that people don't care as much as you think they do about manual transmissions. Never claimed they ALL should be. But the OPTION on cars marketed as such would be great! If everyone was like you, there'd be no automatic transmissions. Excellent blanket statement! No automatics evar! Because that's exactly what I often say :alchi: You've said it yourself that by having an automatic transmission and FWD, a Seville, Eldorado and Allante are poseur sports sedans and sports cars, and nothing a true "driver" wants. Well if that were the case, nobody would ever "settle" for any of these cars, instead buying the RWD/manual competitor. Well lots of people (the members on the site for one) are very satisfied with their FWD, automatic cars, and they may wish that they were RWD or a manual, but it's not the end of the world that they aren't. We wish things about our cars all the time. I know you won't buy any of these, because they're automatic and FWD, but lots of us still find them to be a very desirable and satisfactory car. I myself think that RWD is fun to drive, more so than FWD, but I also realize that in the snowbelt, FWD is much more useful as a daily driver and that's why I went with that. I myself don't find driving a stick shift to be particularly fun, and I've driven all sorts of them. The most fun I ever had behind the wheel was a '95 Z28, with the 4L60-E. Just drop it into drive and GO! No messing around with any clutch or 3rd pedal, just go go go! But, that's just my humble opinion.

You win Chad. Kudos to you! I present your prize:

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~rkhosla/cookie.jpg

hueterm
06-10-11, 10:36 PM
Well, it's like his old car...although it is Chicago, where car thieves abound, the likelihood of it being the same car would be incredible...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 10:37 PM
You win Chad. Kudos to you! I present your prize:

[IMG]http://maxflies.net/files/2011/03/lighter-chocolate-chip-cookies.jpg[IMG]

You need to learn how to correctly input picture URL's Rick.


Oh and BTW, nice Coupe deVille. Glad to have you back in the Cadillac family. :) Now I just need to get mine again.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:48 PM
Thanks Jimmy,


But in all honesty, a dictionary definition of a sports car is something small and light, with RWD and a manual transmission, so I'll give Rick that. HOWEVER, if a car doesn't have either or both of those things, that doesn't make it un-sporty.

But again, I never once claimed any Cadillac was trying to be a "sports car".

Did Cadillac not market and intended the 90s Seville STS to be a 5-series competitor? How about the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - a "sporty" family sedan ala V6 Honda Accord (which could have had a manual) but marketed as even more "driver" than a Honda? V6 manual transmission Accords have quite a following. I don't know of any 5-series owner that wishes their car to be FWD be it auto or manual, and I do know of many folks that want nothing but a manual in their 5-series. THAT is what I am trying to say. 1) Cadillac picked a target and had little to offer as competition. Not saying they weren't nice, or excellent cars in their own right - but when you look at the original marketing it was pretty clear who was being targeted. 2) Not that ALL cars should have been manual (I'm not sure where that broad statement came from?) but the OPTION would be nice. Most V6 Accords are autos, but they were atleast offered with a manual. That means if one wants a manual Accord - it can be had. If not, plenty of autos to choose from.

As for the ebay ad: I was starting to wonder when someone would do the obvious.

hueterm
06-10-11, 10:50 PM
:applause:

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 10:50 PM
Mileage seems off. I don't remember Rick's old coupe having pinstripes or gold emblems.

My Coupe had factory painted pinstripes and the ugly gold badges. I got tired of staring at the gold wreath and crest on the hood so I swapped it out for chrome.

hueterm
06-10-11, 10:52 PM
Welcome to the world of gentlemen, gentlemen...

slk230mb
06-10-11, 10:54 PM
My Coupe had factory painted pinstripes and the ugly gold badges. I got tired of staring at the gold wreath and crest on the hood so I swapped it out for chrome.

I can see why, the gold doesn't look that good on that color paint.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 11:05 PM
But again, I never once claimed any Cadillac was trying to be a "sports car".

Did Cadillac not market and intended the 90s Seville STS to be a 5-series competitor? How about the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - a "sporty" family sedan ala V6 Honda Accord (which could have had a manual) but marketed as even more "driver" than a Honda? V6 manual transmission Accords have quite a following. I don't know of any 5-series owner that wishes their car to be FWD be it auto or manual, and I do know of many folks that want nothing but a manual in their 5-series. THAT is what I am trying to say. 1) Cadillac picked a target and had little to offer as competition. Not saying they weren't nice, or excellent cars in their own right - but when you look at the original marketing it was pretty clear who was being targeted. 2) Not that ALL cars should have been manual (I'm not sure where that broad statement came from?) but the OPTION would be nice. Most V6 Accords are autos, but they were atleast offered with a manual. That means if one wants a manual Accord - it can be had. If not, plenty of autos to choose from.

I think there may have been some misunderstanding. I apologize on my behalf.

Speaking of the GTP, you say it's not as sporty as a V6 MTX Accord or SHO because it wasn't offered with an MTX. I'll give you that, to a purist it's not as sporty as them because of the lack of MTX, however, most people are satisfied with their GTP or GS or what have you with the ATX. Secondly, at the time, GM didn't offer any sort of a transversely mounted MTX that could handle the supercharged 3800's torque, but I'm sure if they did have it, they would have offered it.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 11:09 PM
In less than 12hrs if all is well, I'll be the new owner of said car.

No, it isn't my old one.

But it is 1 of the other 118 (and who knows how many are left), and it did take me 5yrs to find another, let alone another in decent condition.

The miles are accurate - 45k.

Did I pay too much? Maybe so. Are there other much "nicer" cars to be had for the price? Hell yes. There is a local '95 Eldorado ETC, Crisom Perarl, chrome wheels, 112k and minty mint fresh asking $3900, it was tough to pass up that car. This is also entering the price range of minty e34's too (with manual transmissions!)

Truth is, I don't need or have a use for another car. Buying a Cadillac would do nothing but sit most the time as I wouldn't drive it to work etc...

Which explains the Coupe. If I was to own a car that didn't get used much - THAT would be the car. This is coming from a guy who'd drive the heck out of an e28 M5 if he owned it too. Nothing about this car purchase is logical. It is purely attachment, emotional and all in the head. I never wanted to get rid of that car and it was stolen from me. This Summer has been 5yrs it was gone and I still think about it and miss it.

That car is 2-owner and was always in Chicago. I told myself I'd never buy another Northern car again - but damn, this is the exception. The seller sent me underbody pictures, though they are crappy iphone quality. The car isn'y bad, but it has surface rust. Point being? My '87 528e with 300k that was one tow from the junkyard when I bought it but always a Southern car has no rust underneath.

The car looks pretty bad with the two tone, mine wasn't and this one won't be which is why the peeling paint on the cladding isn't a problem. The missing/damaged badges aren't a problem either because I highly dislike the gold and will be replacing them with chrome.

The pinstripe is not OEM, it is a sticker. It is too low on the body and not on the trunk like the painted type. These cars had pinstripe delete option.

I'm not sure what's going on with the drivers door, it doesn't look right on the bottom. I asked the seller several times over the phone and he says it doesn't appear to be messed up. The rocker trim under the door appears to be bowed in slightly and I'm not sure why the two stickers on the door, in the door jamb are missing - the build date and tire load stickers.

When I see it in person, I am going to give it a solid going over. See if there is accident damage in the drivers door area, check if the car has been repainted at all, inspect for major underbody rust etc... If it all checks out, I am going to take it and run (well drive) away and never look back. My car was stolen and I never thought I'd find another - much less in such good overall, original, clean and low mile condition.

It was bought new at Ettelson Cadillac in Chicago. I called, and they are open tomorrow. They said they can give me any information they have about it when I provide proof of ownership - but their computer system automatically purges unused accounts/vehicles every few years so they probably don't have anything on it.

A select few knew about it already. hueterm did the obvious but Roo called it out first :)

I'm not even packed yet and in 4hrs I'll be leaving to start the trip up!

Stingroo
06-10-11, 11:09 PM
I think there may have been some misunderstanding. I apologize on my behalf.

Speaking of the GTP, you say it's not as sporty as a V6 MTX Accord or SHO because it wasn't offered with an MTX. I'll give you that, to a purist it's not as sporty as them because of the lack of MTX, however, most people are satisfied with their GTP or GS or what have you with the ATX. Secondly, at the time, GM didn't offer any sort of a transversely mounted MTX that could handle the supercharged 3800's torque, but I'm sure if they did have it, they would have offered it.

This. Now please, no more beating this dead horse.

Rick, is that the car you're going to come back with? If so - CALLED IT.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 11:27 PM
Secondly, at the time, GM didn't offer any sort of a transversely mounted MTX that could handle the supercharged 3800's torque, but I'm sure if they did have it, they would have offered it.

My point exactly, and if they offered it - I'm sure they'd sell quite a bit. I'm not targeting a particular brand or model. But GM as a whole, from the gimicky stuff in the 80s to the high-powered (realitive) engines of the 90s. GM marketed those cars to be sold against other models atleast offered with a manual transmission, or in the case of the higher end luxury cars - against big time RWD players. Maybe the average V6 manual tranmission Accord owner (Grand Prix) doesn't care if their car is FWD. Just like the average automatic 5-series owner that prefers RWD (for whatever their own reason - actual or in their head), atleast the cars had what was considered standard for the particular market and gave the option to what some wanted.

Put it this way:

If the 1992+ Seville STS was exactly the same as it is now in terms of quality, design etc... but was a proper RWD car with the option of a proper manual transmission (IE: worthy competition for the 5-series), and the car was actually marketed worth a darn, not just videos of old guys playing golf and shooting arrows - then atleast I personally think Cadillac could have been where they are now (rebuilding with a semi-solid lineup) but 15yrs ago. They had excellent cars with a world-class engine and let it all go to waste. Leave the DeVille for the old folks, heck keep it FWD, whatever - but the Eldorado ETC and Seville STS could have been truely awesome cars that would have really gave the Germans (their targeted competiton) a run for the money and made the public far more aware of not only Cadillac, but GM as a whole.

THAT is what I am saying. Maybe some (alot) of things got lost in translation along the way. I still am very fond of the 90s Eldorado ETC and Seville STS even being FWD and automatics as are many actual owners - but I also know these cars aren't taken seriously by many both on other forums and in person.

Night Wolf
06-10-11, 11:32 PM
This. Now please, no more beating this dead horse.

Rick, is that the car you're going to come back with? If so - CALLED IT.

You get the cookie. Well, Chad got the cookie first, so you get what he leaves behind (you can take that however you'd like...) but yes, you did call it! :)

The plan is - yes. If I see something I really don't like, then I'm out my deposit and I fly back to ATL - and it was one heck of an expensive weekend (or day) in Chicago.

*Edit - the car was posted last Saturday. It just so happened to be one of the days I was thinking about my car and typed "1993 DeVille" (usually every 1-4 weeks) just to see if any Slate Bronze Metallic (1993-only) DeVille's were on ebay... well, that's when I saw the newly-listed ad. I looked over the pictures about fifty times, called the seller and asked for underbody pictures. When I got them and it passed the "worthy of deposit" OK - I used Buy It Now and have been grinning ever since.

If there is a single car I would buy just to "have" and not even drive much - this is it. I just already feel a part of me is back from looking at the pictures, I'm excited to actually sit in it and go for a drive - which is why I'm hoping I won't be let down or disapointed when I see it in person. "Just a car" - maybe so, but of all the vehicles I've owned - my '93 Coupe still remains THE single one that ment the most to me. It has nothing to do with numbers on paper, book value, driving excitment or anything other than illogical reaons. If I never owned that car, I probably wouldn't think twice about it or be in the market for an old DeVille.

If it checks out good, then that car better watch out. I'm not the same person I was 8-years ago. I remember "big" projects I was hesitant about that I wouldn't give a second thought now. From working on all sorts of aircraft and other vehicles, my knowledge base has expanded dozens of times over and I've also acquired a whole lot more tools and the knowledge of using them in the time since. I don't know if I'd say this car will be "better" than my old one - it holds a special place in my heart... but this car will be in good hands for sure.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-10-11, 11:43 PM
I really hope it works out for you. You deserve that car. God only knows how many of those 119 Slate Bronze Metallic '93 CDV's are left after 18 years and C4C.... You'll work out the trim issues without any problems.

Stingroo
06-10-11, 11:50 PM
You do realize that if you get that car, FL meet attendance is almost mandatory, right? :lol:

Hope it works out :thumbsup:

JimmyH
06-10-11, 11:54 PM
I've been to many different automotive forums...

I would think you would understand by now, anyone posting on internet forum (beyond the 5-20 post count of someone simply there to solve a problem) is an automotive enthusiast. And not a member of the masses.

Yes, the masses do buy cadillacs. Some of them even converted to Lexus or Buick when Cadillac stopped (for the most part) making fwd cars :shocked:

JimmyH
06-11-11, 12:01 AM
Thanks Jimmy,


But in all honesty, a dictionary definition of a sports car is something small and light, with RWD and a manual transmission, so I'll give Rick that. HOWEVER, if a car doesn't have either or both of those things, that doesn't make it un-sporty.


To purists, a sports car is a 2-seat roadster having no top, convertible or otherwise, with race-ready handling. You would be hard pressed to really translate the traditional definition of sports car into today's watered down crop of performance automobiles. Yet today's fwd econo-rockets would crush a sports car from yesteryear. So the point of calling any vehicle a "sports car" is moot really.


I thought this thread was about pizza. Did you find any?

Night Wolf
06-11-11, 02:05 AM
I thought this thread was about pizza. Did you find any?

I have found plenty! The best, IMO being back in my hometown of course! Plus, there is actually an excellent local place from Northern guys that started up their own shop.

As for Chicago stuff? No - see that requires me to be in Chicago, which hasn't happened yet...


I really hope it works out for you. You deserve that car. God only knows how many of those 119 Slate Bronze Metallic '93 CDV's are left after 18 years and C4C.... You'll work out the trim issues without any problems.

Thank you! The timing was horrible - I just got done putting all sorts of money into the Jeep (which all could have been put on hold if I knew about this car), a new roof on the house (deductible) among other things.

The car was listed with a buy it now or best offer option. The 3rd call or so after we talked a bit, I asked what their best offer is. They said they just listed the car and have been getting calls about it, including another car dealer and passed on an offer of $4500. They wanted full asking price and if in a few weeks it didn't sell, they would take lower. I wasn't going to wait. They are willing to waive the $149 "doc fee" though and there is no sales tax collected as GA lets used car sales go without it (get hit with a yearly tax based on vehicle value when renew registration though)

There was a lot of things I could nit-pick about the car and if this was any other car I'd be haggling about it etc... but it was simple - "yes" or "no". Take it or leave it. If I want this car, I need to take the good with the bad. My biggest concern is underbody rust because it was always a Northern car. Then I tell myself, this car is pretty darn clean - if I pass on it, how long until I find another? 5 more years? and what kind of condition would that car be in? I first had to decide IF I wanted a '93 Slate Bronze Metallic Coupe DeVille again (I already knew the answer) then I said all or nothing? Hence the trip!


You do realize that if you get that car, FL meet attendance is almost mandatory, right? :lol:

Hope it works out :thumbsup:

LOL, I was thinking about that trip.... I dunno man... I mean, that yucky two-tone peeling trim is really bothering me, one of the first things I am going to do is remove all the lower plastic cladding and either paint it myself or take it and get painted in Slate Bronze metallic... but until then, I dunno if I want to be seen in the car - you know, I got an image to keep up and stuff... so in that case, I'd have to take the Panzer :).

Playdrv4me
06-11-11, 02:35 AM
Rick, I'll be honest... When you sent me the link to that car I didn't actually think you had bought it. Why? Because you are a STICKLER for rust (even moreso than I am), and judging by the condition of the REST of the car, I have high doubts that it was garaged anywhere near as much as they claim it was. It seems almost as though the car was run hard for 45000 miles, someone realized they had a rare color and body style and then the car was just parked in a corner somewhere or perhaps stuck in a garage AFTER that initial 45k miles.

All I'm saying is I don't really understand this infatuation with rare colors (except for Ray's love of Orange, which is pretty cool when you find it as a factory shade) on otherwise average cars. Sure, coupes are less common than Sedans, but they aren't rare by any means. Then when you combine the amount this car is going to cost you, the fact that you didn't want to spend this money right now, and all the settling I hear in the above reply... I have to throw out the opinion that I think forking over 5 grand for this car if it's in no more than passable condition is just plain silly. If you want to spend 5 grand, there are tons of flawless coupes out there in different but still beautiful colors.

That said, I am guilty of doing much worse, but I only offer you genuine honest advice.

Night Wolf
06-11-11, 04:40 AM
Rick, I'll be honest... When you sent me the link to that car I didn't actually think you had bought it. Why? Because you are a STICKLER for rust (even moreso than I am), and judging by the condition of the REST of the car, I have high doubts that it was garaged anywhere near as much as they claim it was. It seems almost as though the car was run hard for 45000 miles, someone realized they had a rare color and body style and then the car was just parked in a corner somewhere or perhaps stuck in a garage AFTER that initial 45k miles.

All I'm saying is I don't really understand this infatuation with rare colors (except for Ray's love of Orange, which is pretty cool when you find it as a factory shade) on otherwise average cars. Sure, coupes are less common than Sedans, but they aren't rare by any means. Then when you combine the amount this car is going to cost you, the fact that you didn't want to spend this money right now, and all the settling I hear in the above reply... I have to throw out the opinion that I think forking over 5 grand for this car if it's in no more than passable condition is just plain silly. If you want to spend 5 grand, there are tons of flawless coupes out there in different but still beautiful colors.

That said, I am guilty of doing much worse, but I only offer you genuine honest advice.

I fully understand, and you are absolutely correct. Thing is, I owned the same exact year/make/model/color, which was 1993-only. It was my first car and I never, ever wanted to part with it. Only 119 were made. I owned that car for 3yrs and put 40k on it. It gave me freedom when I turned 16, kept me out of trouble in high school cause I was always tinkering with it. I moved from NY to Florida with that car and it got me started in tech school so I was able to be where I am today. It was stolen from me. Next month will be 5yrs. I'll never forget that sheer empty feeling inside when I returned to my apartment after being in NY one week and my car was no where to be found. This is my chance to get part of that back. It's not logical, it's emotional. That car could be worthless to everyone in the world but it means more than it's paper value to me. Just like all the middle aged folks buying up old muscle cars to get back what they once had. To me, those cars aren't worth the inflated price they bring.

Night Wolf
06-11-11, 06:46 AM
As for the miles - I don't doubt them. Autocheck which is included in the ebay ad shows a consistent mileage history. The seller said said got it from a guy who had it since '03 (when I got my Coupe) when he bought it from the estate sale of an elderly women. I'm quite familiar with these cars, as such I know they develop certain traits as they get accumulate use and not so much age. A couple examples: the paint on the front valve cover on the 4.9 will begin to bubble and peel. Also the drivers door arm rest will start to crack at the corner where the switch panel is. The black metal trim around said switches is painted and will rub/scratch/wear off from use. Of course there is no set time, but when I got my Coupe at 80k, all of the above already happened - not so much on this car. The pictures overall aren't the best quality but checking their history, other said cars were better than expected. Worst case, I see it in person and pass. It will be worth it to me to see it in person and maybe get closure with the whole thing. Otherwise I'm very excited about it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-11-11, 07:47 AM
Keep us updated, I'm really pulling for you on this thing.

If it's good and you pick it up, are you going to daily driver it like the 5 series, or cherish it and only drive it once in a while?

Night Wolf
06-12-11, 03:52 AM
Well it's been one heck of a weekend! An experience for sure! Driving back now, avenging 24.5+mpg. Overall impressive for what it is, pretty nice on the highway too. I lucked out - about the only vehicle in Chicago that's not a rust bucket. An appliance, but a nice one at that. Hyundai continues to improve and this new Santa Fe is a great example of that.

ga_etc
06-12-11, 04:01 PM
I take it the CDV didn't live up to the promises of the pictures?

OffThaHorseCEO
06-13-11, 10:27 AM
the dealer is selling it here now?

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-classifieds/Cadillac%20DeVilles%20For%20Sale/p8164-1993%20Cadillac%20Coupe%20Deville%2045k%20orig%20m iles%20%20Slate%20Bronze%20Metallic.html

Playdrv4me
06-13-11, 12:51 PM
I posted some... questions.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 01:06 PM
I had to see it in person, I really did. It was sort of a clouser from my car.

As for this particular car - the two tone was factory as the GM sticker in the trunk listed a seperate upper and lower color. Mechanically, it performed well, engine and transmission were nice. Removing the oil cap showed a 45k 4.9. Car is on original electronic struts, Service SSS light is on as expected - front struts are due for replacement as the front end bobs a bit. Not bad, but enough to be noticeable.

The two conditions that I told myself would be deal breakers would be accident damage/repaint and major rust.

The drivers door had damage at one point, enough that the door itself was removed as the hinge bolts had tool marks/wear/rust on them and there was rust under the hinge. The door jamb was repainted and as such there are no more stickers showing build date etc... The door skin was a little wavy. I don't think it affected the rocker but the door itself had work done to it. The chrome strip was held in with goo, the original pegs are broken and the lower plastic trim was broke underneath - it doesn't line up because somebody got small pieces of metal and drilled holes in it as a basic bracket to hold the trim up to the underside of the door. The drivers door hinge is also sagging a good bit - Common on Lincoln's (even my '96 which I fixed) but I really haven't seen it on Cadillacs, and especially a 90s one.

But the major no go? Rust. I knew it, but I was hoping for the best. I told myself I'd never do another Northern car and this would have been the exception but it was just too much. If someone just wanted a "car" to drive around, it wouldn't be *too* bad, but for me, my standards, and my intended purpose of this car? Far too much. Every body seam had rust, the lower rockers and A-pillars would flake apart in my hands, all the brake and fuel lines were rusty, some to the point of flaking. The front subframe was rusty as were the sub frame mounts. Opening the hood showed rust in the lower inner fenders... and pretty much the point of no return was when I saw heavy flaking on the passenger side inner fender, just forward of the strut tower, started picking at it - and my finger went right thru into the wheel well!

I'm sure for 1993-model Chicago cars, it isn't bad... but it would be flat out stupid to spend that much for that car to bring it to the South where cars simply do not rust out. The main thing? I'm adding up how much cost and time it would take to fix all this - and the thousads of dollars keep multiplying. Basically, the car would have to be put on jackstands or a lift and EVERYTHING removed - down to the bare body, all the rust cleaned, treated, painted and everything that gets attachted would have to be also cleaned up or replaced... everything - brake lines, suspension, subframe with engine and transmission. If I was restoring a '55 Coupe DeVille, then fine - but spending $5k for a 45k '93 CDV? I'm not about to do a full resto.

To put it into perspective, I paid $500 for my '87 BMW 528e. Most have seen pictures of it - it looks (well, got better, but was pretty bad when I bought it) like a totally beat car one tow from the junkyard. Yet, it was always a Southern car. The underbody while aged from dirt/grease/general wear etc.... is rust free. All the suspension parts, drivetrain, exhaust, body, brake lines, fuel lines - it's all clean and rust free. Other than some minor rust/rot around the trunk seal (due to the crappy design and how it goes bad, common on e28) the only other rust more than a few specs, and especially rot-thru is directly under the battery tray from acid over the years. On the e28 the battery is under the hood, not under the back seat or in the trunk - so it hasn't even been a concern.

It was a huge reality check to what life in NY was like with rusty cars - as well as a huge realization that old used cars down here are simply incredible when it comes to the rust issues. Just like my old 5-series - the car was beat, neglected, had lots of issues and looked like trash.... yet underneath it was solid, rust free and accident free (deer into the hood doesn't count). It was very easy for me to see that, know how well these things were built and decide it was worth it to fix. All the "other" stuff bolted to the car body itself can be easily/cheaply replaced... the core of the car was solid. In the case of the '93 CDV? From the outside it looked minty fresh - but underneath it was just cancer that would keep spreading. The exact opposite of my old BMW. Everything around the core of the car looked great, but the very chassis itself would continue to get worse and worse.

It was quite a weekend though... this was just the main things about that car, I then got to know Chicago's public transportation system very well and wasted time looking at two other (much cheaper) cars before renting a car and driving back.

I feel relief that I did not buy the car. It would just always be in the back of my head. Also, I drove it around a while, spent a few hours with it actually but due to the city traffic only got up to 60mph or so, put around 30 miles on it. It's very nice as a DeVille in general. The DeVille is an excellent luxury car.... yet it just didn't do much for me anymore. Maybe all the memories in my head made me want it back more tha anything. Maybe the rust really bothered me a lot from enjoying the car. But when driving it, I'd tell myself "if the rust wasn't an issue... how do I like it?" and I don't know when I'd ever use the car. I really like convertibles, when my '90 325iC is done, I'd take that all over as a highway car... or the Jeep... or if I wanted a hardtop over me, then the 5-series. I don't know when I'd actually choose to drive the DeVille in place of my other vehicles.

Then I got thinking when I thought of that - buying the '93 CDV would be more money now and just keep adding up, up and up with maintenace, repairs, yearly registration tax etc... Not counting the cost to get to Chicago, the depsoit, cost to return etc... (because it was all a wash anyway, though it was over $1k total) that left $4700 that I'd spend on the car (they were willing to take $500 off, but I was just disgusted with the rust, it wasn't a dollar issue). Then I realized that I really enjoy my '90 BMW 325iC and it has been 2.5yrs the thing has been on jackstands in my driveway because of my lazy butt... that the $4700 would be more than enough money to complete the car, totally. From the expensive aftermarket shifter I want to the expensive lowering springs/shocks to even a full replacement soft top and new tires. I'd have money left over! That really did it for me - heck by the time I drive that car again it'll feel new to me, because I haven't driven it in so long and also - because it will be all new.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 01:24 PM
I posted some... questions.

As for the mis matched trim on the bottom... well it's simply the peeling paint.

The front and rear bumper covers are considered "flexible" and are black underneath. The side trim along the fender, door, quarter panel etc... is considered "rigid" and is silverish underneath. The front left bumper paint and passenger door paint is totally peeled off, exposing the plastic underneath.

My last reply was long, I know - and that was only the begining. I know if I didn't see it in person, I'd be beating myself up with the "what if" stuff. As it is right now? I feel like I've moved on from the '93 Coupe DeVille. It'll always have a special place in my heart with excellent memories. Who knows, maybe I'd get another in the future (perhaps not as hung up on the color) but for now? I don't even have the desire to own another one. Getting back into my old, high mile, showing its age e28 was a sigh of relief. I can't exactly pin point it... maybe because I'm so comfortable with that car, I know its strong points and shortcomings, I know that I can trust it, I know that it isn't eating itself apart every day it's parked due to cancer rust as well as that car has never been a finanical burden for me - not to purchase, fix up or daily drive... speaking of which - it is an absolute joy to drive with, compared to the DeVille - more options/features in a package (manual transmission, RWD and excellent driving dynamics) that I far, far prefer.

Out of all this - I realized I'm very happy with my 3 current vehicles. I really like my Jeep. The '90 3-series convertible will begin to get attention again and be an awesome highway road trip car... and the old e28? It rolled over to 274k on the way to pick up the shuttle van... I'd say it only has another 274k left on it. That car will get more attention now and I'll continue to enjoy it. I was spoiled by the 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe - that thing was super quiet on the interstate, espcially wind noise. While the old e28 really can't compare to new cars like that, all the window and sunroof seals are shot, they don't leak but it whistles about as bad as the leading car of the Chicago public transportation train system. So the 528e will be getting all new window/sunroof seals.... and tinted windows to help keep it cool - 104* all Summer long is hot. I had some R-134a laying around and topped it off - darn thing blows ICE cold, and that's even with a seized up electric aux pusher fan (A/C use only, engine has mechanical fan/clutch).

The long lasting outcome of all this - I'm not as hung up about my '93 CDV as I thought I was (actually over it for the most part now) and I really, really enjoy the vehicles I currently have, and what they offer. They each have a specifc purpose and use and I like that. They are all Southern vehicles and RUST FREE - that is the biggest sigh of relief.

Rodya234
06-13-11, 02:29 PM
But the major no go? Rust. I knew it, but I was hoping for the best. I told myself I'd never do another Northern car and this would have been the exception but it was just too much. If someone just wanted a "car" to drive around, it wouldn't be *too* bad, but for me, my standards, and my intended purpose of this car? Far too much. Every body seam had rust, the lower rockers and A-pillars would flake apart in my hands, all the brake and fuel lines were rusty, some to the point of flaking. The front subframe was rusty as were the sub frame mounts. Opening the hood showed rust in the lower inner fenders... and pretty much the point of no return was when I saw heavy flaking on the passenger side inner fender, just forward of the strut tower, started picking at it - and my finger went right thru into the wheel well!


Sounds like my '93 Sedan :lol: Of course, mine has way more miles on it, and I'd take a damn sight less than 5k for it...

Overall I agree with you about C-body Devilles, I used to love the ones I had with all my heart, but I feel that my STS is a better car in almost every way. I put the cigar lighter from my '91 in the Seville though, just as a little reminder of what a good first car it was.

MacMuse
06-13-11, 03:26 PM
Still not seeing anything about a pizza. What a missed opportunity.

:lildevil: :stirpot:

Jesda
06-13-11, 03:43 PM
Sometimes, seeing your lost love a second time around reminds you that maybe it was mostly infatuation and the period in your life.

I hope you ate some Italian beef and hot dogs while you were there.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 04:07 PM
While thinking it over with the seller, we went to Giordanos and I got an individual sized sasuage pizza - it was excellent! Though I have a difficult time calling anything a "pizza" that requires a fork and knife.

I got dropped off at Midway and it would have been $350 to fly back, so I started browsing Craigslist. Saw a '98 Lincoln Mark VIII, called seller said it was 10mins from the airport and to take a cab. I did, and it was - which seemed like the Latio ghetto of Chicago. It was a small gated lot of about 30 rust buckets bumper to bumper, they were all beat "city" cars. I took the city bus back to Midway (the cable along the side is not a hand/arm rest - it tells the bus driver to stop). Then was inquiring about a '92 Cadillac Brougham 5.7 on Craiglist, took the orange line to the red line all the way to Jarvis (North end of the city) from Midway about an hour total - that car was a total rust bucket and hack job too (gotta love the way some folks decribe cars both online and over the phone). While there, I went to this small mom n pop shop with folks that hardly spoke English and got an Italian beef sandwhich with fries - that was excellent too! Then I took the trains all the way back to Midway to find out there were no more flights until the morning. My cell phone was dead (only brought car charger) and I would have had to sleep in the airport. I inquired about renting a car and all said/done it would have been the same cost to fly back vs drive, and damnit, I was looking forward to the drive back!

Because I'm under 25 my renting options were limited and cost more. All they had 1-way was a Kia Rio. I sweet talked the cute girl at the counter, told her I was a Gov't employee and work for the Dept. of Defense, showed her my ID and explained the situation - that I want to drive back, but I don't want to be tortured for the ~750 mile trip (back to ATL and take the shuttle van back to the Panzer). She laughed, called the manager and was able to let me rent the 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe for the same cost - she asked which I wanted, I said anything but the Rio! This Santa Fe was probably a base model, only had the 4cyl and was AWD - it felt like an appliance, but a darn sure nice one at that. I was overall impressed with it and it performed well, however it felt like an appliance and didn't offer much in terms of feedback, enjoyment or much else. For someone who sees a car as just a mode of transportation - it's hard to beat.

Then while driving back, I stopped in Chattanooga, TN (dunno why but every time I go there I like it more) to go to a personal favorite - Big River Grille and Brewing Works. Had a most excellent steak meal!

I didn't get many pictures of anything - actually I took a picture of the stuffed pizza in Chicago, the steak meal at Big River, and 1 outside and 1 inside picture of the Santa Fe... that was it - everything else will be memories in my head. Plus, it was high 90s all week so I dress in shorts and a button down shirt, then I get there and it's 58*, I had $4700 in cash, an overnight bag with a laptop, digital camera, GPS and ipod. I'm sure there are nice parts of Chicago, but I didn't seem to be in any of them (I was in the south side and north side according tot he locals). Traveling around on the public transportation systems like this wasn't exactly my idea of a good time. Oddly, there are lots and lots of attractive females - not model quality, but very hott girl next door kind. Many were traveling alone on the trains for their daily commute. Overall people were friendly and it was easy to strike up a conversation with folks on the trains, they were helpful too.

JimmyH
06-13-11, 04:47 PM
We might have rusty cars, but we still have the best pizza. All you out-of-towners tend to forget something: we might be known for deep-dish, but there is plenty of thin-crust pizza here as well that is absolutely delectable.

Jesda
06-13-11, 04:49 PM
Its funny how the bigger a city gets, the more full of BS the car ads are. NY/NJ are notorious for "LOOKS GREAT NO DEFECTS" (except the ruined seat, rust, rattling noises from the suspension, fluctuating idle, faded paint, etc etc)

Rodya234
06-13-11, 04:56 PM
^ higher population density = more scumbags per square mile.

orconn
06-13-11, 05:05 PM
I know the feeling of coming face to face with a long lost automotive heart throb. Back in the late eighties I began to yearn for another Series I Jaguar short wheel base XJ6 like I had had for a few years back in the early seventies. In its' day the first generation XJ6 was considered one of the best, if not the best sedans in the world. I had sold the one I had because my wife and I were buying a new house and I didn't want potential Jaguar expense hanging over me as I financially adjusted to being a home owner.

I had leased newer model XJ's, as business cars, in the interim years but didn't find them nearly as satifying as my memories of my first one.

So I asked my friend and mechanic to keep his eye out for a really good Series 1 XJ6 for me to buy for my perosnal car. After several months, I got a call from my friend, who said that he had a customer who was looking to sell his 1971 and was I still interested. This car had been maintained since it was new by my mechanic and lived an unstressed life in Pasadena with its' original owner. The car was as described a really nice "survivor" all original. While the leather and wood were in decent shape and the color of the interior (biscuit) was not bad, exterior color was a light green non metallic, one of my least favorite Jaguar colors. But never the less I drove it and it was really a good riving XJ6 ... except for one thing. I had forgotten how loose and non feeling the power steering was on these early cars. While I am sure the steering was good for the late sixties when these Jags first came out, the lack of feel was a real turn off to me. And so my love affair with the first XJ's came to an end never to be reignited. Whenever I see a really nice short wheel base Series I at a show and admire the purity of its' design, I remember my extreme disappointment with their steering and leave the desire to own one to others.

As it turned out a few years later I got my Alfa Romeo 164. I still had room in my garage for it, and as luck would have it turned out tob my "alltime" favorite car!

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 05:08 PM
We might have rusty cars, but we still have the best pizza. All you out-of-towners tend to forget something: we might be known for deep-dish, but there is plenty of thin-crust pizza here as well that is absolutely delectable.

I hail from the land of New York. It'll always be the best pizza to me :). I much prefer thin crust, the stuffed pizza was more like a calzone with extra sauce in a difference shape.

JimmyH
06-13-11, 05:31 PM
Which is why you should have tried some thin crust.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 05:38 PM
I know the feeling of coming face to face with a long lost automotive heart throb. Back in the late eighties I began to yearn for another Series I Jaguar short wheel base XJ6 like I had had for a few years back in the early seventies. In its' day the first generation XJ6 was considered one of the best, if not the best sedans in the world. I had sold the one I had because my wife and I were buying a new house and I didn't want potential Jaguar expense hanging over me as I financially adjusted to being a home owner.

I had leased newer model XJ's, as business cars, in the interim years but didn't find them nearly as satifying as my memories of my first one.

So I asked my friend and mechanic to keep his eye out for a really good Series 1 XJ6 for me to buy for my perosnal car. After several months, I got a call from my friend, who said that he had a customer who was looking to sell his 1971 and was I still interested. This car had been maintained since it was new by my mechanic and lived an unstressed life in Pasadena with its' original owner. The car was as described a really nice "survivor" all original. While the leather and wood were in decent shape and the color of the interior (biscuit) was not bad, exterior color was a light green non metallic, one of my least favorite Jaguar colors. But never the less I drove it and it was really a good riving XJ6 ... except for one thing. I had forgotten how loose and non feeling the power steering was on these early cars. While I am sure the steering was good for the late sixties when these Jags first came out, the lack of feel was a real turn off to me. And so my love affair with the first XJ's came to an end never to be reignited. Whenever I see a really nice short wheel base Series I at a show and admire the purity of its' design, I remember my extreme disappointment with their steering and leave the desire to own one to others.

As it turned out a few years later I got my Alfa Romeo 164. I still had room in my garage for it, and as luck would have it turned out tob my "alltime" favorite car!

That is quite an intersting story, and I can relate to it.

Driving that '93 CDV around... it just didn't really do much for me. It was very comfortable and would be a "nice" driver... but the desire to just drive it wasn't really there. The 4.9 was plenty peppy and acceleration in 1st gear is excellent, but otherwise it just kinda was "there".

Other than that, this particular car would need a new radio head unit, after driving around a while I put the climate control to 90 on both econ and auto and was unable to get heat, the air changed to the floor, but it wasn't hot. I put it on auto and 60 and the A/C blew cool, but not cold. It was in the mid-high 60s, but still, it should be colder.

As for the other cars, I looked at this Lincoln Mark VIII. From the pictures and ad it looks like an excellent car!

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/2434768084.html

It was crammed in a lot of 30 other cars - a guy is a personal "dealer" they all looked like used car repo specials. There was a '95 BMW 525i, ruined with an automatic and would have been nice (M50 dual VANOS swap in the '90 325iC!) but was hit hard by rust.

The Mark VIII was actually one of the better cars there, the pictures show it on the side of the street, but it was bumper to bumper in the mess of other cars. The ad didn't mention the missing/broken trim outside the car, inside the car. Apparently "LOOKS GREAT" means fading clearcoat on the hood, roof and trunk as well as overall scuffs on the bumpers/doors. The interior was OK, the steering column was held together with black electrical tape. I poped the hood and the engine bay was pretty filthy... then of course, the rust. It didn't appear *too* bad on this car (others had body panels almost totally missing from rust) but it was still there, all over the underbody. New tires must mean "matching set from econo used tire" as was the car overall. I took a cab to look at the car and the city bus back to the airport.

Then I took the train to see this car, on the phone the seller went down to $1700 and described the car as overall very good condition but had to sell due to loosing income and getting free train passes.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/2432508343.html

I asked about the "minor rust spots" and ws told "just a little bit over the fenders" I then asked about the rust seen on the corner of the drivers door in the picture and was told all doors were like that and got sent several cell phone pics.

Well, seeing the car in person - it was beat, hard. It is NOT a d'Elegance. The paint is overall shot including some areas that have been touched up via spray bomb. The interior which looked sharp in the pictures was overall dirty and showed age/wear. The engine bay had some hacked up wiring and heater hoses... but of course, RUST. Both rear fenders over the wheels were covered in rust under the paint, all the lower edges of the doors and trunk... and the entire underbody... the whole frame itself was rusty, the body of the car, the body mounts, everything was covered in rust. One of the first things mentioned was "I just put a whole new exhaust system on it" I asked if it rusted out, and the reply was "No, it just broke off right here :points under the car:" Yeah, broke off because it was totally rusted out!

I didn't even drive this car, after looking at it, I knew there was no hope. I walked back to the train station and started on the hour long ride (on two different trains) back to Midway.

Minor rust? Looks excellent? Garage kept? I guess you can take a crap on your garage floor and put it for sale - ALWAYS KEPT IN THE GARAGE!

And to think - my '96 Town Car, in terms of daily driven '96 model cars it -WAS- just about as fresh as one could get, and I kept that thing maintained to the best of my abailites - which is quite well... not like those ads where the car was a hack job. Yet when I was selling that car, I still nit picked the slightest defect, fingernail scratch or crease in the leather. Then I look at all these other ads and realize that my car in comparison was like brand new, never driven a single mile. I disclosed everything I knew about that car. The guy that bought it (was looking for that exact year/trim/color) started chuckling when I was pointing out all the little things, many of which he couldn't see and I'd say "well, stand here, look at it like this, now do you see it?" I was honest and up front about it. He paid me full asking price without hesitation too.

The seller of that '92 Brougham said all cars in Chicago are rusty. Yeah, that's a given... but when a car is advertised as LOW MILES, GARAGE KEPT, MINOR RUST and I call and told the car was 1-owner, then parked in a garage for 9yrs then the current seller bought it last year and it is in excellent condition ready to drive across the country - I don't exactly expect a hacked up rust bucket.

I guess if your standard is a 1975 Ford LTD, it may be "minor rust" but when the car is covered with it.... how is that minor?

Are so many people clueless or just ignorant? Rust is like cancer. Once started, you can park the car in a climate controlled garage - and it'll spread. If you can see it - then it's everywhere you can't see. If it is under the paint, then it is still there and probably worse. If the trim is covering it up, then it's still there and that's bad. Seriously, rust is about the worst thing on a car and someone would rather spend more time talking about a broken piece of door trim than anything else. I guess it's just things people are generally car-stupid about. All that matters is what you can see - screw everything else.

96Fleetwood
06-13-11, 06:00 PM
Chicago is horrible for cars. That is why my Trans Am hibernates in a climate controlled garage from November to March. I try to wash our other cars once a week in the winter to prevent salt buildup.... :(

Sorry it didn't work out with the Coupe. If you came here in January, you may have been driving my e39 wagon back ;)

gdwriter
06-13-11, 06:15 PM
Well, at least the lost-love first car itch has been scratched. That Coupe de Ville was way overpriced to begin with, not even counting all the rust.

I understand that first-car lost love, and I got lucky with Betty. Unlike with that DeVille, as soon as I got behind the wheel, it sounded, felt and drove exactly as I had remembered the last time I had driven a '64 Impala 15 years earlier. That it was the same color was a bonus; I wasn't insisting on Meadow Green since there are lots of beautiful colors available in '64.

Although a California car, Betty had surface rust because she had spent her life on the Pacific coast (as in you could see the ocean from the original owner's house), and 12 years later, some of those rust spots have come back. In 1999, I couldn't afford to cut it all out and replace it with metal, but now I can and will. More importantly, the structure is rock solid; body rust is much easier to deal with. But 12 years, 75,000 miles and probably at least $20 grand later, I have zero regrets. I will never sell Betty; she goes to my heirs or to a museum.

But back to that CDV, I've always thought the driving characteristics of the early 90s DeVilles were better than expected. When I bought my '91, I was expecting a floaty boat that would wallow all over the road with no steering feel at all, none of which was the case. And while no sports car, I found Cruella more engaging to drive than I though she'd be. On my two trips back to North Dakota since giving Cruella to my niece, I've looked forward to driving her again. It's like saying hello to an old friend.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 06:18 PM
I was thinking about your e39, you did some tasteful appearance mods to it too... Sadly, the only way I'd ever buy another Northern car again, is if it was either NEVER driven in the winter or was a Southern car brought up north and NEVER driven in the winter.

Washing the outside of the car is great for keeping the paint nice... sadly, on older cars - it doesn't do squat for underneath.

Just like how I wash the underbody of my Jeep after taking it wheelin, the best way to flush out the underbody of a car is to get a sprinkler - not the spinning kind, but the long kind that sorta "rolls" back and fourth. Put it under the vehicle, turn the water on and walk away for 15mins, then reposition that. Do that about 4 times and it flushes out the underbody real nice. On my Jeep with an actual frame, I put the garden hose in one of the holes in the frame at each corner and run water thru it until it flushes out clean - same with the skid plates on it.

Just like my '89 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight. It was always a NY car - an excellent car too and the 3800/440T4 had plenty of miles left on it but when I sold it at 135k (fully disclosed rust issues) the car was just rusting out all over. Bottom of A-pillars, inner fenders, rotted out under rear seat... Such a shame. I really forgot how much the northern winters ruin vehicles up North.

In the North, a vehicles life really seems to be limited by the rust as it ages. In the South - a vehicles life is regulated by how it is maintained by the owner. As a car ages and wears, some people feel that it isn't "worth" it to maintain it, so it degrades much faster. Turth is, not counting accidents/wrecks - just about any Southern vehicle will last a long, long time if just simply maintained. My 528e is a perfect example of it. Without rust eating the car from the bottom up - they'll keep going so long as the owner puts the time/effort/money into simple maintance and preventative mainteance.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-13-11, 06:21 PM
Sorry to hear it didn't work out Rick, but I don't blame you at all for passing. Rust will either destroy your car or drain your wallet while you're trying to chase it all away. Even if that thing was completely minty mint, it was robbery at $5,000. I paid $3750 + tax for my '92 Sedan deVille in December of '04, and mine was MINT and it was fairly low miles (99,098 when I drove it into my driveway) and it was a one owner from the salt free state of Nebraska. If I'm paying $5,000 for a 91-93 C-Body today, it's gonna be a 50,000 mile Sixty Special, Fleetwood Coupe or Deville Touring Sedan.


A few years back, when I was replacing the Mercedes, I looked at a real nice, low mile '95 Roadmaster Sedan, wondering if I could rekindle my love for my first car. Nope, nothing more than a lukewarm feeling after a good test drive. It was fun to have that one summer, but I was ready to move on. Now, maybe when I'm 44 and having a midlife crisis...

Jesda
06-13-11, 06:37 PM
Chicago thin crust is indeed quite delicious. The St Louis version is good too if you avoid Imo's, which has gone to crap.

I've only owned a handful of cars twice. Three Sevilles, two Mazda 929s. I loved them all and will keep buying them until they cease to be available in reasonable condition. The Audi A6 sounds to me like a direct transition from the Seville. Medium-large sized, FWD, nice interior, lots of tech, around 300hp (if you get the right engine).

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 06:45 PM
Maybe my driving experience was tainted by knowing about the rust. It was very overpriced, and I knew that - but if it was in the condition that was described (nearly perfect) then it was worth it to me (color etc..)

It just felt like I would/could get tired of it easy. It didn't offer much to keep me wanting to drive it. Thinking back to my old one, the driving dynamics eren't bad per say, but it wasn't great either. 4-wheel independent suspension was nice, rear drum brakes are not. Because of that, IIRC the ABS system was 3 channel (seperate front wheels but rear were not independent?) I don't remember. In terms of DeVilles, overall it performed well. Compared to even my old 5-series, which was outdated in '87 when new and very outdated in '93? Well... when talking driving dynamics, there really was no comparison.

The general design of the car - excellent for an isolated "know nothing" cruiser, but I found myself saying over and over again "just when and where would I drive this car?" as it wouldn't be a daily driver, it would just sit until I felt like driving it.

Put it this way: In terms of wanting a flat out comfortable, classic American luxury car with little concern to "sport sedan" type of cars - my '96 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series had the '93 DeVille beat in almost every category. I really liked that car and with the '95 updates, had excellent styling outside, an excellent interior/dash and overall, I'd choose it over a C-body DeVille - it was truely great at what it was made to do.

Atleast for that car, what it was made to do is what I no longer wanted from a vehicle. At the time I was daily driving the '90 325iC and I hardly drove the Town Car - when I did, I wanted to be driving the BMW. I enjoy the open feeling of convertibles (or my Jeep with no doors) but when the windows were closed in the Lincoln - created a very isolated enviorment that really was like sitting on a comfy living room couch with really cool italic teal digital read outs and a very impressive JBL sound system.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons I really like my old 5-series. It combines (very well too!) what I really liked about my Town Car and DeVille, as well as well as the excellent driving dynamics of my 325iC, and open feeling too.

It is a midsize luxury car that has a very nice highway ride, yet the suspesnion holds it's own in handling. It can be closed up and do the luxury car thing very well yet all 4 windows go all the way down, and with a low belt line is overall very open feeling. It also has a nice sunroof that fully opens into the roof - while not a convertible, it can offer part of the "open" feeling, though it still doesn't really compare.

When I drove it to NY, it was excellent on the highway, but not as purpose built overall as my Town Car was - that gets the nod in pure highway crusing. Yet when I got to NY, the e28 was a blast to drive up, over, down and around the mountains with the manual transmission, and nice handling. It was a great highway car on the way and a very fun, tossable and involving car to drive once I got there.

Out of this though, I realized if I was to get another 90s Cadillac, I don't think I want another C-body DeVille. I would want the car that still grabs my attention, that I wanted when I had my '93 CDV and that I still like - 1995 Eldorado ETC. I like the sharp lines of the car and that 90s Cadillac tear-drop dash is one of the best IMO. '95 has all the exterior updates that make the Eldo look clean and fresh, not clunky and old... but it still has the early interior which I prefer - tach on the right, FDC and ECC next to the cluster, only in reach of the driver and just the stereo in the center stack. Plus, it is still OBDI, I heard all '95 ETC's were factory Z-rated? but it is just a sexy car.

Not that I need or have a use for another car - but that is the 90s Cadillac model that has, and continues to grab my attention. Then again, if I was to buy another "car", I keep looking at '94/'95 BMW 525i, 5spd manual of course and really, really like the whole package and what they offer. That would probably replace the e28 at some point and be a daily driver, leaving the e30 when I want a convertible and the Jeep to do Jeep stuff with.

Playdrv4me
06-13-11, 06:59 PM
Wow I thought I'd be on the button with that thing, but not THAT much... I said 2500 and that is barely... BARELY a 2000.00 car in that condition.

Im on my phone, but someone should probably permalink Ricks condition assessment post in the replies section of that classified ad. No one here should get suckered into that piece of shit.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 07:00 PM
Sorry to hear it didn't work out Rick, but I don't blame you at all for passing. Rust will either destroy your car or drain your wallet while you're trying to chase it all away. Even if that thing was completely minty mint, it was robbery at $5,000. I paid $3750 + tax for my '92 Sedan deVille in December of '04, and mine was MINT and it was fairly low miles (99,098 when I drove it into my driveway) and it was a one owner from the salt free state of Nebraska. If I'm paying $5,000 for a 91-93 C-Body today, it's gonna be a 50,000 mile Sixty Special, Fleetwood Coupe or Deville Touring Sedan.


A few years back, when I was replacing the Mercedes, I looked at a real nice, low mile '95 Roadmaster Sedan, wondering if I could rekindle my love for my first car. Nope, nothing more than a lukewarm feeling after a good test drive. It was fun to have that one summer, but I was ready to move on. Now, maybe when I'm 44 and having a midlife crisis...

I don't think the C-body DeVille will ever be an actual collector car... even the Fleetwoods and Sixty Specials were gimicky... how do you describe that? Someone asks what a '93 Sixty Special is and the answer "It's a fully loaded Cadillac DeVille with different badges and fender skirts". They are still very nice cars - but suffered from GM's cost cutting parts box years. Same with the Fleetwood Coupe "A fully loaded Coupe DeVille with real wood trim and fender skirts" or the DeVille Touring Sedan "a Sedan DeVille with blacked out trim, no hood ornament, stiffer struts that are trash by now and ever so slightly different gearing". None of that stuff was enough to make the car any different from what it was. The Fleetwood versions felt just like the regular DeVille versions and there was nothing sporty about the Touring Sedan, so why bother? It would be like putting leather seats in a Jeep Wrangler and trying to pass it off as a luxury car - just because it has what is sometimes associated with a certain type of car - doesn't make it that car. The same exact car with little changes and a different name. It would be like blacking out the trim on my 528e, changing the wheels, putting an M steering wheel, shifter knob and M5 badges on it - Who are they trying to fool? That said, in my '93 CDV, I did convert the cluster from analog to digital as I preferred the digital read outs, plus it blended and looked much better together with the FDC and ECC - and I did get the dash/radio real wood trim from a Fleetwood, sand it down, stain it in a non-ugly color and poly coat it. Because it DID look much nicer and I'm not a fan of "plastic wood" in general. Those were the "big whoop" difference between the lowly DeVille and high end Fleetwood/Sixty Special. Fully optioned (digital dash etc...) and minor difference that could have been done to any car (real wood trim etc...) along with tacked on fender "skirts"

For those reasons, I don't think the C-body DeVille or any variations of it will ever be "collector" cars... maybe some, like myself will seek them for whatever reason... but the price and following won't be supporting "collector" car status.

That '93 CDV was NOT worth $5k in general, but to me being one of the other 119, it was - if it was in as clean and fresh condition as described. My passion for my first car was enough to warrant the price, otherwise I'd never consider paying $5k for a '93 CDV.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 07:03 PM
Wow I thought I'd be on the button with that thing, but not THAT much... I said 2500 and that is barely... BARELY a 2000.00 car in that condition.

Yup. The seller asked what they could do to make the deal happen, was it a lower price? I said, honestly - after already paying the $300 deposit, I wouldn't pay a dollar more than $3,000 for this car right now, and even then that would be too much considering the rust, but I'm making an exception for this particular car/color.

They said they could go to $4,195 - $500 off. I said no. Even as they were dropping me off at the airport, asked again, what could they do? I was thinking $3800 or at most $4000... but that thought quickly left my mind as I realized it just simply wasn't worth it with the rust. To which I replied it isn't a dollar figure thing, it's the rust - that will keep eating at it more and more and more.

*Edit - I'm sure someone who doesn't know much about cars will see it and go "SHINEY!" "45k miles!" "CADILLAC!" and pay that much for it... the underbody condition means so much more to a car then the condition of the paint, yet it is so over looked. Ah well. I see the seller added the positive information I told them (1993 only color, 1 of 119) but none of the bad (rot thru on the inner fender, no heat, worn front struts, overall rusty underneath including flaking body and brake lines, sagging drivers door, some form of accident/damage repair to drivers door)

Ah well - what a relief I didn't buy the car. Lesson learned, then again that is why I wanted to see it in person before I finalized the transaction.

Playdrv4me
06-13-11, 07:06 PM
Yup. The seller asked what they could do to make the deal happen, was it a lower price? I said, honestly - after already paying the $300 deposit, I wouldn't pay a dollar more than $3,000 for this car right now, and even then that would be too much considering the rust, but I'm making an exception for this particular car/color.

They said they could go to $4,195 - $500 off. I said no. Even as they were dropping me off at the airport, asked again, what could they do? I was thinking $3800 or at most $4000... but that thought quickly left my mind as I realized it just simply wasn't worth it with the rust. To which I replied it isn't a dollar figure thing, it's the rust - that will keep eating at it more and more and more.

I'm extremely pleased that you didn't let your feelings take over. You made the absolute right decision.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 07:19 PM
I'm extremely pleased that you didn't let your feelings take over. You made the absolute right decision.

Thanks! I felt so much better after seeing it and passing. A rough estimate of the cost to travel up, lost deposit and travel down is already over $1,000, but I don't regret it. It was quite an experience overall, and I know if I passed on it - I'd keep thinking "what if" or "that was my chance". Even if someone else looked at it and told me, I'd probably still keep thinking "but thats ok, I can fix it". I knew I had to see it for myself and drive it again. Only then was I able to decide that it was more rust then I wanted, it was more money then I'm willing to spend on it and, ultimately - it sucks and really bothers me when I think about my '93 CDV getting stolen, and I do miss THAT car - most likely from the memories with it and period of my like (16-19 years old, moved from NY to FL, first love etc...) but now that I experienced it again, it was a very hollow feeling and overall didn't really do much for me.

That said, I still "like" the '93 CDV, and if I was to get one again it would be half, or less than half of that $5k, probably triple black and without a doubt, turely rust free. But then the cycle starts, I don't need another car, it wouldn't have a use, if I was to get another 90's Cadillac it would be a '95 ETC and if I was going to get a '95 ETC I'd probably choose an e34 instead...

orconn
06-13-11, 07:56 PM
Rick, you've got a good "scuderia" as it sits, get your 3 series convertible back in shape, same with the Jeep. Then if you are still hankering for a cushy freeway cruiser get a nice Lincoln TC ..... or if you are ready a newer, nicer BMW 5 series (although it wouldn't be near the fun of the ones you have now).

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 09:28 PM
Rick, you've got a good "scuderia" as it sits, get your 3 series convertible back in shape, same with the Jeep. Then if you are still hankering for a cushy freeway cruiser get a nice Lincoln TC ..... or if you are ready a newer, nicer BMW 5 series (although it wouldn't be near the fun of the ones you have now).

You are absolutely correct! I'm very happy with my vehicles. That particular '93 CDV was driven by emotion. Even though I have plenty of projects I find myself browsing Craiglist for cheap older BMWs. I find it a thrill get a rust free/accident free car that someone else has given up on then give it the time and attention it deserves to get it in nice condition again.

This whole ordeal has really given me new apperciation for my e28. Not that I disliked it before, I've always liked it. It just really made me realize that while it may not be worth much or look like the premium car it once was - it is a rock solid daily driver that I have a lot of trust in, that despite it's age/miles/neglect and abuse - has plenty of life left. For what I look for in a vehicle - it is an excellent daily driver both in terms of being practical and fun. It also fills a void in my other vehicles - a 4-door vehicle with useful back seat and a secure hard top to isolate the outside world. It is nice to have a vehicle that has plenty of luggage space along with comfortable room for 4 adults. If anything, this car has really made me appericate a proper "sport sedan".

I really need to start working on the '90 325iC again. When it is covered, then a tarp over the cover (prevent water from getting in), my mind goes to "out of sight, out of mind" but when I uncover it - I start working on it again. I think I'm gonna get one of those portable carports and put it over the car, then keep it uncovered. That'll probably get me motivated to work on it again, even just a little bit each day.

Stingroo
06-13-11, 10:39 PM
I kid you not, I saw a CDV this color while at the bank. It was a heap o'crap though. Made me kind of sad, now knowing just how rare the color is. :( I like GM oddities....

billc83
06-13-11, 11:22 PM
Rick, good on you for walking away. Too often we can talk ourselves into something we don't want.

There's always another car.

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 11:25 PM
I did an oil change on the Panzer today, after seeing all those rusted Chicago cars it really made me thankful for cars in the South. My '90 325iC was always a Southern car, as was the Jeep and 528e. The e28 is probably the best used example - as the thing was beat bad, neglected and most anyone would have sent it straight to the junkyard when I bought it. I saw the potential this car had, knowing the rock solid track record of 80s BMW as well as seeing it was a major rust/major accident free Southern car. $500 bought me an absolutely filthy nasty interior, mismatched wheels/tires, engine ran with dangously low oil pressure (as in low oil pressure light on) for two years due to cracked oil pump and a car that overall looked like trash. But all that "stuff" could be addressed, easily and rather cheaply. With a solid, clean core - the car was worth it as it is easy to unbolt and bolt stuff together when you have a solid place for those bolts to go.

My '89 Oldsmobile was the same way in terms of rust. It was always a NY car. I bought it in 2004 with 116k miles for the same price of $500. This is the winter car I bought to keep my (bought in Florida) '93 CDV out of the salty NY winters. The car had no rear brakes due to rotted brake lines (when bought, first thing fixed). The exhaust broke right before the cat while driving it one time - due to rust (hint: anytime a Northern car has a NEW EXHAUST SYSTEM!!!! it's because it rusted out. A factory exhaust system, cat excluded sometimes - should last the life fo the vehicle). Cancer rust was all over, it was actually rotted out under the rear seat, the lower A-pillars were rotted out, inner fenders and even the engine subframe mounts! Heck, while driving one time the drivers seat tilted real far back, turned out one of the four mounting points was rotted out, my fater was able to weld up a washer to good metal that I was able to bolt the seat to - still, not something good on a safety item like the seat. It was real bad...

Look, clean engine! Well, if you look closer, you'll see rust to the very right (drivers side inner fender) That was totally rotted thru, the passenger side wasn't too far behind.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/22401d1155050108-possible-stolen-car-pdr_0308-2.jpg

Never mind the rusted power steering cooler lines rusted enough to leak (brake lines and fuel lines were in similar condition) along with general coating of rust

[/img]http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/22402d1155050108-possible-stolen-car-pdr_0309-2.jpg[/img]

Don't look at where the rusted exhaust was clamped back together or that the whole subframe is rusty (just as that '93 CDV was), but the scary part was when I put thee floor jack under the subframe to work on the car... I was wondering why the car didn't really move as I kept pumping up the jack - the subframe mount was gone! The subframe was pushing up into the body of the car! The passenger side wasn't too far behind either. 2 of the 6 subframe mounts were totally rotted out. There are stories of this happending on C-body DeVilles (sister cars) with the rear of the subframe dropping down while driving and pulling the steering linkage with it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/22660d1156173409-isuzu-amigo-rusty.jpg

but hey, look the car is shiney! (repainted by the high school vo-tech) This car could be described as RUST FREE!!!! because I don't see any at all when standing next to it! When I sold this car (fully disclosed rust issue to buyer) it "only" had 135k... now if that exact car was a Southern car - sure the paint would be faded, but the darn thing serioulsy would have had another 135k on it, easy. That engine ran great and transmission shifted excellent. A/C was cold and heat was hot. It had new struts and brakes too, mechanically that car was solid and would have kept going. What a shame that everything the mechanical stuff bolted to was rusting apart from itself.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/22403d1155050108-possible-stolen-car-pdr_0310-2.jpg


As a comparison, here are pictures of my e28 I took today. The car is dirty as it is a daily driver and work car. This too was a $500 car. This car is an '87 model year but built in July, 1986 - next month this car will be 25 years old and has 274,000 miles on it. These are places where those Chicago cars (and NY cars - all the same) totally rust out. Sure the e28 is "dirty" from age/miles/use/oil/grime/grease... but the darn thing sure is clean. Taking into account of the age/miles, and that this is not a collector car, I would feel very comfortable to describe this as car as rust free, as well as purchase a car just like this described as rust free. THIS, to me is a "rust free" car, however it does/did have rust (and actually rot thru) along parts of the trunk seal (crappy design and common on e28) which I have fixed already. As well as part of the battery tray in the engine bay, which given the corrosive enviornment and isolated location, is understandable.

First up is the drivers door jamb including hinges, lower A-pillar and lower edges of the door:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0159.jpg

Same for the rear doors, lower edge of door, rockers and door jamb. Drivers seat back cover screw that holds it on stripped out - need to remove the seat anyway to weld part of the metal seat back frame that broke, now that I have a welder - they were junkyard seats $25/pair.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0160.jpg

Looking in the engine bay shows more - this is the passenger side inner fender/ strut tower along with the original brake lines

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0161.jpg

upper strut tower:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0169.jpg

Then of course under the car, again keeping in mind the age/miles/neglect/use/abuse of this car. I also realized the diff is leaking, looks from the drain plug. I'll have to check that out.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0164.jpg

part of the rear suspension, and those original brake lines again...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0165.jpg

"frame rails" body/floor, original forward exhaust section (eta had single exhaust, "i" like my 325iC had true dual) and original fuel line.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0166.jpg

Underside of the front half of the car

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0170.jpg

Drivers steering/suspension and wheel well.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0177.jpg

The extent of rust anywhere on this car - bottom of the battery tray. Heh, and to think when I first saw that I got disapointed in finding "rust". Now that I have a grinder and welder, it wouldn't take much to cut that out and weld in some new metal. This is the kind of "minor rust" I can deal with.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0172.jpg

Night Wolf
06-13-11, 11:39 PM
Even on older cars, I like to have original, OEM style keys. I bought two off ebay, one for Noelle and one for the Panzer. Function wise, these keys are far superior to off-brand blanks - as they are solid steel (not nickle plated brass) and won't brake off in the door lock/ignition - major when the key itself is used to turn the actual lock or ignition tumbler! Also, they just look better, feel better in hand, saw BMW (gotta represent!) and, have the light. BMW included the key light and advertised it as being able to find the door keylock hole at night (similar to Cadillac's illuminated entry). It's just handy to have a little flash light on a key ring anyway. I've already had a use for this little light - neat stuff. It can be converted to LED too.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0180.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0182.jpg

I also pulled off all 4 door arm rests and painted them in Dulpicolor vinyl & fabric flat black. (they used to be tan) I already liked the two-tone interior and this just makes it look better IMO. Unless I mentioned it - most folks would probably never know they are painted, just like the carpet.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0185.jpg

Early e28s had a real upper dash vent, later ones like mine did not, though everything under the vent was still there (then e34 went back to it along with cool opening hood). The e28 uses an old skool (as in 60s) split HVAC system. Normally the only way for fresh air (vent) or A/C is from the dash vents (not floor or windsheild which is heat only). The upper dash vent just gives another option, allowing to direct air up along the windsheild and into the cabin sorta from the top down and can be opened/closed for max top, max thru face vent or anywhere in between. It was only $15 or so shipped form ebay and was a nice little useful upgrade.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0186.jpg

One overlooked, but very practical benefit of the e28 is the visability! The '11 Santa Fe I rented and drove down was horrible when it came to that. Small back windows with a big sail panel, rear seat head rests and high belt line. Getting back into the e28 was a big "wow, I can see around me" with the lower belt line and thinner pillars. This car needs the windows tinted bad, it just gets too darn hot here in the Summer.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0193.jpg

The faithful eta M20. 2.7 liters of 80s BMW I6 goodness. I keep going back and fourth on doing an engine swap in the 325iC (probaby M50/M52 for ease and cost) which would allow me to put the "i" M20 along with updated/better Bosch Motronic 1.3 (from 1.0) engine management into this car. 50hp bump, extra 1500RPM, "performance" tuned engine instead of "fuel economy" and a 3.73 limited slip diff swap... that'd turn the old e28 into quite a fun car - not quite e28 535i level (3.5L M30 I6) but darn sure close. Then I think about how I'm content with the M20 eta (they just don't die) and I like the idea of keeping the M20 "i" in the convertible as I'm very happy with the engine in general and would like to keep the original engine in that car.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0195.jpg

Ultimately, the pictures of the clean underbody of this car is why I was so willing to buy the car, keep it, work with it and still stick with it. It may not look like much from the outside and may be rough around the edges, but it's just a solid old tank that has plenty more service to give. It owes me nothing, was cheap to buy, cheap and easy to fix, very fun to drive, cheap to insure, runs on regular gas and is fuel efficent (23mpg town driving hard, 26-32mpg highway cruise depending on speed from 60-80mph, A/C does cut those down by about 2-3mpg each, still not a big deal. That's also why I'm so comfortable with this car - I know that stuff will break as it gets older with more use, but I can fix all that stuff. The core of this car is solid and gives me reason to spend the time/effort/money getting it going. In return it provides me with comfortable, safe and fun daily transportation to work, or whever else I need, or may want to go. I have driven this car up to upstate NY and down to Tampa bay, FL and enjoyed every mile behind the wheel. Because it isn't perfect on the outside allows me to be very relaxed about it and simply not worry non stop about it. It also is an excellent theft deterrent because most folks probably wouldn't give it a 2nd look. Even though it does not have an air bag, it is still a very well built car and holds up good in accidents so I feel safe in it. Just the other day when I was getting the new key cut, a guy in the shop asks me about the car and tells me he had an '88 528e (last year for e28, that year was the Super-eta) and he loved that car, drove it to 300k and it ultimately gave its' life to save his. From the sound of it, was a pretty bad wreck and he said he was completely uninjured. I've heard lots of stories like this online too. The original arm rest "comfort" seats are just that and the 8 factory high quality speakers sound flat out good when paired with the Pionner head unit and all the sound shaping tools it offers. It's just an all around impressesive and fun car to daily drive, even after 25 years.

Stingroo
06-13-11, 11:42 PM
Wait, so you recommend your Duplicolor fabric and vinyl paint?

I was thinking of doing my armrests with it as well, and a minor black two tone for my lower dash (new dash piece = tan. current dash color = red).



Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-13-11, 11:43 PM
The 91-93 DTS wasn't a "sporty" car by your standards Rick, but it wasn't bad for a full sized, FWD luxury sedan in 1991. It's very rare nowadays and is coveted in the FWD C-Body groups, same with the Fleetwoods and Sixty Specials. The only Cadillacs from that era that may be collectible in the future are the Allantes, and perhaps the Broughams, if they're in great condition and equipped the right way.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 12:09 AM
I kid you not, I saw a CDV this color while at the bank. It was a heap o'crap though. Made me kind of sad, now knowing just how rare the color is. :( I like GM oddities....

When I lived in Clearwater, FL - I saw a Slate Bronze Metallic coupe passing on the road twice, it too was beat pretty bad. That is the only time I ever saw another in person. I've seen a few SBM Sedans over the years.

I have more pictures of that car on this site in my "attachments" heck, since that's what this thread is about I'll post them up. It's odd, seeing these pictures... makes me miss MY car... yet seeing that other '93 CDV and driving it didn't really do much for me... maybe because it was rusty like it was? Maybe because MY car ment a lot to me as well as all the good times that were shared with it. I dunno. I feel better though not that I saw the other in person and have driven it. I guess I'll always miss this car, but atleast now I feel like I'm able to move on a bit better than before.

A couple of these I posted before, but ah well.. still some of the best pictures I had of the car. These were towards the end when it had around 120k on it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16859d1137565623-so-coupe-before-pdr_1009.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16858d1137565623-so-coupe-before-pdr_1004.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16857d1137565623-so-coupe-before-pdr_0958.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16856d1137565623-so-coupe-before-pdr_0956.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16862d1137565695-so-coupe-before-pdr_1019.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16861d1137565695-so-coupe-before-pdr_1014.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16860d1137565695-so-coupe-before-pdr_0968.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/16863d1137565695-so-coupe-before-pdr_1020.jpg

Perhaps THAT is what I was trying to get back by flying up to Chicago and buying a $5k '93 CDV. Mine cost $4500 with 80k in '03.

Some other extras - this is the dash trim I got from a Fleetwood in the junkyard, sanded away all the ugly orange stuff then stained it with Minwax #224 walnut and poly coated it - I was real happy with the results! Also wired up the "car is leveling" light (light is already there but not wired up on the later years) as well as there I had my XM receiver mounted (which was a very nice place in that car)

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/electrical-technical-information/17178d1138396030-xm-radio-hardwire-into-1994-deville-pdr_0274.jpg

My car came with the analog cluster but I converted it to digital. Wasn't too bad but required a lot of wire splices and extensions. I was happy with the result, though the mileage stays with the cluster. The cluster had 8k miles less than my car did (noted in my cars maintenace log book that stayed with the car) and I was going to see about getting it reflashed sometime. This was the cluster from the junkyard.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/16557d1136501326-more-upgrades-79-pdr_0865.jpg

One of the last things I did to that car was buy a brand new set of Goodyear Assurance Comfortred tires (later the same tires I bought for my Lincoln) and I thought having the pencil line white walls would look good... I prefer black walls with the Seville SLS wheels. These are some of the last pictures I have of the car, and this is also the same exact parking spot that I parked it in when I went to NY in July 2006 and returned to it missing. It was facing that way, was in park (front wheels locked) with parking brake on (rear wheels locked) was so low on fuel it was flashing E (maybe a gallon left) it had tinted windows (also one of the last things done to it) as well as a windsheild sun shade. Up close, it wasn't perfect as the paint was peeling front behind the front plate braket (that I removed in FL) and on both of the doors cladding (I touched up but still was peeling) and the clearcoat was fading on the hood, trunk and roof.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/21468d1150916819-white-wall-beast-pdr_0271.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/21469d1150916819-white-wall-beast-pdr_0272.jpg

No tire skid marks, no broken glass, nobody in the complex heard/saw anything, nothing was reported to front desk, cops didn't hear/find anything, I drove around every day for weeks on all the side streets and never saw it, I went to all the local junkyards and never seen it, I called around to the others even further out. I didn't have theft coverage on it so the car and everything in it was a total loss - but it wasn't a dollar thing... I just never, ever was going to sell it.

Looking at these pictures makes me want it back. I guess I just miss MY car, and probably always will to some degree. Atleast now I understand a bit more - that is was that particular car and the memories/good times/part of my life with it... and not just another Slate Bronze Metallic '93 Coupe DeVille. It took 5yrs to find another and realize that. That's ok though, I understand it no and don't have to keep thinking "what if"... if I never saw that one in Chicago.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 12:34 AM
Wait, so you recommend your Duplicolor fabric and vinyl paint?

I was thinking of doing my armrests with it as well, and a minor black two tone for my lower dash (new dash piece = tan. current dash color = red).



Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

So far I've painted the entire carpet in both Noelle and the Panzer. Both were fully removed, pressured washed and allowed to dry prior. With the carpet, once sprayed it does have a "painted" crunchy feeling. The fix is to walk on it barefoot for 15mins... now you'd probably never know that carpet was painted unless I told you. The vinyl parts on the drivers side have wear from the cheap floor mat I had in there, the rubber backed numbs were rubbing against it. Touchups are easy though, vacuum it out and spray it again! Which is what I'm going to to when I get around to it.

In the picture looking in from the passenger door, you can tell... yes, there is the cheap floor mat (really need to pull that one out too) but the carpet on the floor has been painted while the carpet on the console is original. The color is a bit off (they just come in generic colors like "tan") but it was close enough.

Black comes in both in flat and gloss. I was unsure which to use so I tried flat first - and it's a darn close match to the factory sheen! Enough that I'd use it on anything else I had/wanted to. I first saw this stuff on one of the e30 sites when someone changed their entire interior to black (e30s never had black carpet) and it looked good.

As for the vinyl arm rests - I just followed the directions and cleaned them really well in the sink with a magic eraser and dish detergent, then hit them with several light coats.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0137.jpg

New BMW door panel clips are about 20 cents/each, the PO was too bothered and decided to screw the panel right into the door would be better.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0145.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Summer11/IMG_0139.jpg

Here is the original carpet installed back in the e30 after it was pressure washed/painted:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/8-8-10%20interior%20removeal/interior2011.jpg

and at night with the flash, which would pick up defects better

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/8-8-10%20interior%20removeal/interior2045.jpg

This was before:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW/8-8-10%20interior%20removeal/interiorremoveal021.jpg

e28 carpet as removed - that interior was so nasty as the PO was a heavy chain smoker, you'd never know now though!

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Fixup/carpet013.jpg

After pressure washed about a dozen times then dried for a week outside.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Fixup/carpet024.jpg

painted

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Fixup/shifter038.jpg

in the car

The tan arm rests were too blah. This interior color isn't that well liked in the e28 world because it is the most popular, I like it a lot though - it's aged well and looks good to me.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/InoventionsEast/BMW%20e28/Fixup/interior099.jpg

STS_Seville_Hunter
06-14-11, 01:12 AM
The 91-93 DTS wasn't a "sporty" car by your standards Rick, but it wasn't bad for a full sized, FWD luxury sedan in 1991. It's very rare nowadays and is coveted in the FWD C-Body groups, same with the Fleetwoods and Sixty Specials. The only Cadillacs from that era that may be collectible in the future are the Allantes, and perhaps the Broughams, if they're in great condition and equipped the right way.
I love how DTS' drive although my Olds 98 with the FE3 package was a bit more nimble (slightly less weight). DTS' usually don't last long on craigslist her in CA like 3-8 days max.
The Oldsmobile Touring Sedan had a way cooler interior though.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 01:38 AM
The 91-93 DTS wasn't a "sporty" car by your standards Rick.

My standards? Who actually considers a C-body DeVille "sporty"? Maybe the same folks that find after market carriage tops "classy"...


but it wasn't bad for a full sized, FWD luxury sedan in 1991.

It's easy to win when there is no competition.


It's very rare nowadays and is coveted in the FWD C-Body groups, same with the Fleetwoods and Sixty Specials.

I never said it wasn't rare. No doubt members of this site that actually know what they are like them. That doesn't mean they are just regular DeVille's with different trim. I actually like the Touring Sedan, but I like it for what it is - a different twist on a car I already like. Not for something it's not - a sport sedan. Mechanically, what made that car "sport"? A 2.93 final drive in place of 2.78? I'm sure I got one of the numbers off, but it wasn't much of a difference. Otherwise it had a slightly thicker sway bar, right? basically - mechanically speaking, there wasn't much difference. Visually, what was there, blacked out trim? No hood ornament and a grille badge instead (which while "cool", looks out of place on the C-body). A different steering wheel?

Of course certain cars will have certain meanings to certain people. Just like the '91-'93 Coupe DeVille will not be a "collector" car, nor will the 1993-only color of Slate Bronze Metallic really have much of a play on things. Because there were only 119 Slate Bronze Metallic '93 CDV - who gives a hoot? To certain people, like myself it stood for something, and the same can be said about the FWD Fleetwood or '91-'93 DTS. But that didn't put my "rare" CDV into the same pot as say an e28 M5 (of which 10x were sold) just as the "touring sedan" bits turn it into a sport sedan.

I'm not knocking it for that it is - a neat trim package on an otherwise DeVille. But it is in no way a sport sedan. I really don't see a 5-series buyer saying "Ohhh, no hood ornament and blacked out trim! Just what had to be done to move into a DeVille!"

My '96 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series had the "Ride Control Package". That was fine, it wasn't trying to be something it wasn't. Did it give the big Lincoln a slightly quicker/stiffer ride? Yes. Did it handle well for what it was? Yes. Did it have driving dynamics to anything near a 5-series? Hell no. That package added stiffer springs/shocks, thicker sway bar and 3.27 gearing in the axle among other visuals. Yet it wasn't a whole new line of Town Car, and most folks would probably never know.

Using that logic, I can bolt an old Grand Wagoneer hood ornament on to my Wrangler, swap in some leather power seats from a Grand Cherokee, get a can of spray-chrome to change the black trim to chrome (since chrome automatically means luxury and black automatically means sporty), heck even do some "performance mods" and swap out the 33" mud tires for 33" highway tires. Now I can pass it off as a "luxury SUV"? Only thing different is one was done at the factory.

The FWD Fleetwood/Sixty were the best though - they were the SAME car. A fully loaded DeVille with a few "extras" that were not options but could easily be added to a DeVille - fender skirts and real wood trim. Again - nice for what it was, but an entire new model in the lineup? Enough of a difference to say with a straight face it is NOT a DeVille?

This was during the years when GM was going for the "look" Since European cars were "in", GM wanted to try and steal buyers - by doing small changes they could to existing cars. Just like the "sport" versions of Oldsmobiles and Buicks with a console and floor shifter in place of a bench seat and colimn shift. Again - nice change from what it was? Sure. Anything to be taken seriously from a performance stand point? No. GM saw something they wanted and said "WE HAVE THAT TOO!!!11!1!". Unfortunately what they put the most emphasis on was "style" over function. Then again, maybe that's all most original buyers cared about, so maybe it worked out well.

As I said, I like the '91-'93 DTS, I like it for being different, uncommon and with some neat touches. But I understand that it really is - the same DeVille it is based off of. If I didn't know any better I'd probably think it was a serious sport sedan.

But I've since owned one. One that was built from the ground-up to be as such. In fact, my particular example is the least "sporty" of all sold in this country. Not to mention mine is also not maintained (and thus performs) as well as it could be or was when new. Yet still - there is simply no difference.

That is the difference, the GM vehicles of this era were going for the "look". Atleast the Cadillacs got a much cleaner example of this from all the tacky stuff on the Chevies. But still, they saw what was associated with the cars setting the standard and applied that to existing models.

The ironic part? The e28 makes no outside visual at all to it's "sporty" nature underneath. In fact much the opposite - it looks like an old person family sedan. Granted the 535is added front and rear spoilers... but just like the '91-'93 DTS... the "is" (sport) package on BMW was mostly a visual thing - sure they got stiffer shocks/springs (trash by now) but mainly it was inside/outside visuals however the "s" package on e28s and e30s did include limited slip - something actually useful. Even then, it is widely accepeted that there really is no difference between "i" and "is" and you can buy "is" parts, put them on an "i" and have the same thing.

The difference is, GM gave those models an entire different name/place in the market lineup (DeVille Touring Sedan, Fleetwood) and now folks actually think they are significantly different then the car they are based off of. The FWD Fleetwood could have just been an option package on the DeVille, then allowing the Fleetwood name to go on the car it belongs to - the Fleetwood Brougham, the RWD, boxy, full frame Fleetwood. Perhaps the ironic part there, is that same car was once the DeVille... eh?


The only Cadillacs from that era that may be collectible in the future are the Allantes, and perhaps the Broughams, if they're in great condition and equipped the right way.

I agree.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 01:57 AM
I love how DTS' drive although my Olds 98 with the FE3 package was a bit more nimble (slightly less weight). DTS' usually don't last long on craigslist her in CA like 3-8 days max.
The Oldsmobile Touring Sedan had a way cooler interior though.

My '89 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight actually had the FE3 suspension package along with the 2.93(?) gearing. I added a factory strut bar to it (same kind as the FWD DeVille had) and it also had new shocks/struts (which by now all original stuff is garbadge so it doesn't make a differece).

As you described, that car too was nimble compared to the DeVille and handled nicely. It wasn't a "bad" handling or driving car. In fact I used to think it handled quite well.... until I bought/drove cars made for handling. Both the FWD C-body and (D or E body)? sister car (my Olds 88) were new for '85. The e28 was an 80s "sport sedan" that was badly dated when the FWD Deville/Delta 88 came out. The e28 is pretty much a face lifted e12 which was first sold in the early 70s, meaning it's design dates back to the 60s. Yet after owing/driving both - there is just no comparison. One is and makes no mention about it. The other isn't and (depending on make/model/trim level) tries to shout it out.

Again, I like all the odd-ball GM models of cars - the otherwise luxury cars but with bucket seats and floor shifters etc... However I used to think they were something serious and now see it as mimicking the style of something else. If you like the car it's based on for what it is, then that's fine and enjoy. If you think you've got the real deal then drive the cars that the others were being made after and report back.

It goes both ways too. In the e28 world, the 528e was only sold in the USA. The whole "eta" system (only in 2 models - e30 325e and e28 528e) was made from the begining to suit American drivers. It is a low revving, high torque engine compared to the "performance" models. They also didn't get the "sport" seats, but instead more cushy "comfort" seats with flip down arm rests. BMW tailered the car for the average American buyer. Yet they marketed it as such and for what it was, you can look at the original ads on youtube and watch or read the magazine ads which were neat. But how many here would take me seriously for saying that the eta e28 offers very similar driving characteristics and feeling as a Town Car because it too has a low revving engine and comfortable seats? As if that's all that makes a certain vehicle what it is. That's exactly what GM was doing when adding "blacked out trim" and a "stiffer sway bar" to otherwise the same car.

STS_Seville_Hunter
06-14-11, 02:18 AM
My '89 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight actually had the FE3 suspension package along with the 2.93(?) gearing. I added a factory strut bar to it (same kind as the FWD DeVille had) and it also had new shocks/struts (which by now all original stuff is garbadge so it doesn't make a differece).

As you described, that car too was nimble compared to the DeVille and handled nicely. It wasn't a "bad" handling or driving car. In fact I used to think it handled quite well.... until I bought/drove cars made for handling. Both the FWD C-body and (D or E body)? sister car (my Olds 88) were new for '85. The e28 was an 80s "sport sedan" that was badly dated when the FWD Deville/Delta 88 came out. The e28 is pretty much a face lifted e12 which was first sold in the early 70s, meaning it's design dates back to the 60s. Yet after owing/driving both - there is just no comparison. One is and makes no mention about it. The other isn't and (depending on make/model/trim level) tries to shout it out.

Again, I like all the odd-ball GM models of cars - the otherwise luxury cars but with bucket seats and floor shifters etc... However I used to think they were something serious and now see it as mimicking the style of something else. If you like the car it's based on for what it is, then that's fine and enjoy. If you think you've got the real deal then drive the cars that the others were being made after and report back.

It goes both ways too. In the e28 world, the 528e was only sold in the USA. The whole "eta" system (only in 2 models - e30 325e and e28 528e) was made from the begining to suit American drivers. It is a low revving, high torque engine compared to the "performance" models. They also didn't get the "sport" seats, but instead more cushy "comfort" seats with flip down arm rests. BMW tailered the car for the average American buyer. Yet they marketed it as such and for what it was, you can look at the original ads on youtube and watch or read the magazine ads which were neat. But how many here would take me seriously for saying that the eta e28 offers very similar driving characteristics and feeling as a Town Car because it too has a low revving engine and comfortable seats? As if that's all that makes a certain vehicle what it is. That's exactly what GM was doing when adding "blacked out trim" and a "stiffer sway bar" to otherwise the same car.

I don't see how buckets console shift was a european thing it dates back to the 60's not every Chevelle SS was a console/buckets car.
I've never driven a e28 but I came away unimpressed when I drove a automatic e36 328is honestly didn't feel "sporty" as I heard maybe I came in to it with too high of expectations.
My Olds had kyb gr2, poly sway bar bushings, strut tower brace, core support-to-strut tower brace, and 16x8 grand prix wheels with 245/50-16ZR Fuzion tires on it honestly it corners great I had no problem keeping up with my friends in a rsx, various hondas, jetta, and a e30 (one coil cut off the springs bilstein shocks, and borbet wheels) except in really tight corners where the car would understeer (google map highway 74 Palm Desert side.) It easily out cornered my Trans Am wish has the "famous" WS6 factory set up on it.
\

Jesda
06-14-11, 03:26 AM
As far as BMWs go, I think the E36 was a low point. The M3 E36 was an entirely different beast, but the standard E36 was kind of cheap. I did like the styling though. I consider it a blip since the cars BMW built before and after it were pretty good.

Stingroo
06-14-11, 06:23 AM
Hmm... that looks really good. I'll have to try it.

By chance do you know if they make a product to paint over hard plastic? (you know, GM interior circa 1992 plastic :lol:)?

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 10:59 AM
I don't see how buckets console shift was a european thing it dates back to the 60's not every Chevelle SS was a console/buckets car.
I've never driven a e28 but I came away unimpressed when I drove a automatic e36 328is honestly didn't feel "sporty" as I heard maybe I came in to it with too high of expectations.
My Olds had kyb gr2, poly sway bar bushings, strut tower brace, core support-to-strut tower brace, and 16x8 grand prix wheels with 245/50-16ZR Fuzion tires on it honestly it corners great I had no problem keeping up with my friends in a rsx, various hondas, jetta, and a e30 (one coil cut off the springs bilstein shocks, and borbet wheels) except in really tight corners where the car would understeer (google map highway 74 Palm Desert side.) It easily out cornered my Trans Am wish has the "famous" WS6 factory set up on it.
\

An automatic in a BMW is a great way to kill a major part of what the car has to offer. As Jesda said, e36 was a low point for BMW, in quality, materials overall performance - though still ''not bad''. Cutting coils is a real crappy way to lower a car and probably hurt it more than anything . That said, the fwd C-bodies and it's siblings weren't bad handling cars for what they were and it sounds like you did some subtle, but nice mods to improve what was already there. BMW's in general don't excel at any single thing - there are faster cars, better handling cars etc... But it is the whole overall package that makes the experience what it is. More than a styling statement, more than hard numbers on paper - it is the driving dynamics as a whole, how the car feels when pushed and what kind of environment it puts the driver in. That is why I say that while they were nice for what they were - to me, they are not a real ''sport sedan''. My particular 528e isn't even in the best driving condition, the clutch is showing it's age and the entire steering/suspension really needs to be refreshed - but even under all that, the cars driving characteristics shine through very well. As long as someone is competent at driving a manual transmission, they are welcome to take the old e28 for a drive and see what it offers first hand. Maybe they would be impressed, maybe not. But having driven both a C-body DeVille, the sister Olds 88, and a Town Car with the upgraded handling package - I know first hand those cars don't compare to an outdated 5-series in terms of driving dynamics. Which is why I said they were very nice cars for what they are when taken at face value, but who are they really trying to fool? Of course when talking modified cars, a lot gets thrown out the window. A Honda Civic can be made quicker/faster than a Corvette - does it really change what both cars ultimately are?

Jesda
06-14-11, 02:18 PM
I'd love to drop a bomb on the plant that builds the X6. Sure, it performs exceptionally well for its class (whatever that is) but its pointless and ugly! Its a BMW for people who aren't into BMWs but love the badge, which is unfortunately what a lot of today's larger BMWs have become. The new 5-series behaves like an E-class and the 7 impersonates both the S-class and LS460.

Long live the 3-series, among the only BMWs that remain focused.

drewsdeville
06-14-11, 02:53 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/22660d1156173409-isuzu-amigo-rusty.jpg


I've seen similar damage as well. What's interesting to me is that while many FWD GM's experienced this, I've also seen many that seem to be invincible, my own included. I can't find an explanation for the inconsistency. Here's a similar shot of my 1990 Eldo, 185,000 miles, driven every WI winter for 21 years, and many here know that I'm not exactly great about washing my car (I've only washed this car twice since last fall). A little surface rust on the bushing retainer, which could easily be taken off with 30 seconds and a wire wheel, but nothing structural on the subframe nor the body:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4484/dsc00430lg.jpg

Stingroo
06-14-11, 03:01 PM
Weird as shit.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 05:11 PM
I'd love to drop a bomb on the plant that builds the X6. Sure, it performs exceptionally well for its class (whatever that is) but its pointless and ugly! Its a BMW for people who aren't into BMWs but love the badge, which is unfortunately what a lot of today's larger BMWs have become. The new 5-series behaves like an E-class and the 7 impersonates both the S-class and LS460.

Long live the 3-series, among the only BMWs that remain focused.

Only new BMWs that really grab my attention is the 3-series Coupe as I don't really like the styling of the sedan nor do I like the look, complexity or weight of a hard top convertible. Also the 1-series, both Coupe and convertible - since it is a proper soft top. Others are just as you mentioned.

In my opinion - e39 was last awesome 5-series (e34 grabs my attention more) and e38 was last flippin A 7-series.

Apparently BMW will be using turbo 4's upcoming to replace the I6 in certain models.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 05:13 PM
Hmm... that looks really good. I'll have to try it.

By chance do you know if they make a product to paint over hard plastic? (you know, GM interior circa 1992 plastic :lol:)?

Yes. It's made by Duplicolor and called vinyl & fabric paint :).

gary88
06-14-11, 05:19 PM
The new F30 will have a turbo 4 (N20) to replace the N/A N52 in the 328i, but the 335i will keep a turbo I6. The Z4 will be the first to get the N20 though.

The dealer I go to is having a driving event in two weeks that I was invited to where I get to drive a new 5 series and an E350 for 30 minutes each, should be interesting since I've been wondering how both perform.

Night Wolf
06-14-11, 05:26 PM
So the turbo 4 is the new base engine while the turbo 6 is optional?

No more N/A I6.... shame, I like em'. Ah well, at least there are planety of awesome models for me to choose from for future cars!

Playdrv4me
06-14-11, 10:50 PM
I've seen similar damage as well. What's interesting to me is that while many FWD GM's experienced this, I've also seen many that seem to be invincible, my own included. I can't find an explanation for the inconsistency. Here's a similar shot of my 1990 Eldo, 185,000 miles, driven every WI winter for 21 years, and many here know that I'm not exactly great about washing my car (I've only washed this car twice since last fall). A little surface rust on the bushing retainer, which could easily be taken off with 30 seconds and a wire wheel, but nothing structural on the subframe nor the body:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4484/dsc00430lg.jpg

What the hell... How odd!

The bottom of the Seville (which came from PA) has places underneath that look SPOTLESS, yet other surfaces have developed the beginnings of the stuff above. Can not explain it.

Playdrv4me
06-14-11, 10:53 PM
And yea, other than the X5, X5m, X3, and 335, BMWs lineup is fairly worthless at this point. I like the LOOKS of the 5 Series (primarily because its so bland you can no longer tell it apart from the 7), but if what I've heard about the driving characteristics is true... meh.

gary88
06-14-11, 10:58 PM
You're forgetting the M3 :shifty :shifty

The 1 series M is quite good too.

Playdrv4me
06-15-11, 12:14 AM
You obviously forgot my feelings about a V8 in a 3 Series... :suspect:

While I appreciate the engine's roots in the M5's V10, if I needed/wanted more than a 6 cylinder in a 3 Series, I'd honestly skip over to a CTS-V... Now that there are autos, manuals, coupes, wagons and maybe even a convertible out there on the horizon... I see no reason to opt for the M3... I don't autocross or race my cars, so there really is nothing better about the M3, and a lot worse (jarring ride) than the V2. The last I looked into this though, I heard the M3 is returning to a 6 cylinder next round which would rekindle my interest.

What the 1 attempts to achieve is cool, but the car itself isn't pleasing for me to look at. Oddly enough, the X6 does not offend me nearly as much as it dost most everyone else, in fact I kinda dig it.

Night Wolf
06-15-11, 02:11 AM
I've seen similar damage as well. What's interesting to me is that while many FWD GM's experienced this, I've also seen many that seem to be invincible, my own included. I can't find an explanation for the inconsistency. Here's a similar shot of my 1990 Eldo, 185,000 miles, driven every WI winter for 21 years, and many here know that I'm not exactly great about washing my car (I've only washed this car twice since last fall). A little surface rust on the bushing retainer, which could easily be taken off with 30 seconds and a wire wheel, but nothing structural on the subframe nor the body:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4484/dsc00430lg.jpg

If only the underbody of that '93 CDV was as clean as that pic, I most likely would have it sitting in the driveway right now.

Night Wolf
06-15-11, 02:21 AM
I understand BMW is using V8s as the demand for power increases - but with BMW producing an amazing run of I6s, I just don't feel the need to "ruin" the experience by getting a car with a V8. I know on paper they have nice numbers, but I prefer the I6.

Which is why the e28 M5 and e34 M5 are the only M5's that really grab my attention. It's also why I don't really have a desire to own a 530i or 540i e34, nor the V8 versions of the e39. The last M3 that grabs my interest is the e46 for the same reasons. The US-spec e36 M3 wasn't really anything special (atleast in the M-world) as that engine had more in common with the regular M50/52 than the S models)

In terms of their current lineup, I wouldn't discredit the x28i's - I quite like the N/A engines.

The 1-series looks great to me, I really like the styling of the car as a whole. It is smaller and lighter than the 3-series, and especially since I'd probably get it in a convertible - I'm not a fan of hardtop convertibles. It kills the lines of the car, adds too much space between the door and rear wheels, I'm sure will be a joy to work on in 15yrs (not) and adds a whole lot of weight. The 1-series convertible retains the soft top. Though it's understandable why it's not well liked in the "luxury" sense - that isn't why I'm interested in the car.

I would really like to drive a manual transmission 128i and 135i side by side to compare the difference of NA vs FI and see which I'd prefer. I was content with the 170hp from my M20 "i" in the e30 so even more power would just be a bonus. I'm sorta over the whole high power thing as most any car reaches triple digit speeds pretty quick, then stupid and expensive stuff happens. I'm much more concerned with the whole package the car offers - probably why I also don't mind the old 121hp 5-series (though e2i conversion is appealing to bring it up to par with my e30). I actually find it fun to push the car hard and squeeze more out of it. It is willing to and doesn't really give a darn, so why not?

Playdrv4me
06-15-11, 02:25 AM
I understand BMW is using V8s as the demand for power increases - but with BMW producing an amazing run of I6s, I just don't feel the need to "ruin" the experience by getting a car with a V8. I know on paper they have nice numbers, but I prefer the I6.

Which is why the e28 M5 and e34 M5 are the only M5's that really grab my attention. It's also why I don't really have a desire to own a 530i or 540i e34, nor the V8 versions of the e39. The last M3 that grabs my interest is the e46 for the same reasons. The US-spec e36 M3 wasn't really anything special (atleast in the M-world) as that engine had more in common with the regular M50/52 than the S models)

Definitely agreed here. Not to mention I avoid V8s in those years anyway due to Nikasil alloy problems (yes I know you can check the engine number to verify it's been replaced, but why even bother messing with it in the first place when the I6 is so good).

As for the E36... That whole damn generation had nothing special. As Jesda mentioned somewhere, it's the one boring spot in the middle of a bunch of otherwise legendary models before and after. The e46 however is still my all time favorite BMW model of anything before or since.

Night Wolf
06-15-11, 02:52 AM
Definitely agreed here. Not to mention I avoid V8s in those years anyway due to Nikasil alloy problems (yes I know you can check the engine number to verify it's been replaced, but why even bother messing with it in the first place when the I6 is so good).

As for the E36... That whole damn generation had nothing special. As Jesda mentioned somewhere, it's the one boring spot in the middle of a bunch of otherwise legendary models before and after. The e46 however is still my all time favorite BMW model of anything before or since.

The Nikasil was an issue early on and is easy to check for - but truth is, that even if it still has it, the US gas was changed in the late 90s (less sulfer) and if the engine is around now with good compression, then it'll be around for a long time to come. That would be the main thing, perform a leak down check on all the cylinders (not that diffult) and if within spec - then it's good to go.

e34s are interesting. They bridge (what I consider) the old and new BMW. Atleast they went back to the forward opening hood (someone hit their head on that part when designing the e28). But I remember from Jesda's 525i, it was also the generation that a lot of metal parts were changed to plastic in the doors, cooling system etc... Jesda said the temp gauge wasn't all that accurate - the temp gauge in the e28 is quite a "real" one (just like the e30).

I've been reading up on e34s, the general consenses is to not search for engine, but search overall car. Later years are much improved over early years body wise. (problems, reliability of everything other than the engine).

Atleast for me, the V8s aren't a desire. The early 525i had the M20 "i" - same engine in my e30 and while an excellent choice in the smaller and much lighter chassis, it was being worked hard in the e34. 535i had the M30B35 - best run of the M30 - M20s bigger brother, chain-driven SOHC 3.5L of old school BMW I6 goodness.... but the general vibe is that in the e34 it is too much of a gas guzzler for the power it produces.

Whcih leaves the '91-'95 525i, and more specifically, '94/'95 525i. These cars had many of the chassis quirks worked out by then, came with the DOHC M50 with VANOS as well as had the (IMO) better looking wider grille/hood bulge. The M50 is an excellent engine often swapped into e30s. Overall very good performance, rock solid reliability, easy to work on and returning very good fuel mileage. For that reason, my e34 of choice would be a '94/'95 525i manual (of course). I don't mind the smaller engines/power output cars and it'd have much better acceleration than my 528e, which I already don't mind so it would be a win in either case. It would be a car that is quite reliable and ready to go for a long time. Just like most all old BMWs, mileage doesn't mean a darn thing - it's all about the maintenace and care the car has received. Find one in very good overall condition with a stack of service records or a valid logbook and you've got quite a winner. I wouldn't think twice about buying such a car with 200k and honestly expecting another out of it.

As for the e36, they are cheap - hence the popularity. Overall, they had excellent engines too and perform great in the e30, it's just that the e36 is bigger, heavier and more isolated.

I think so much of the e36's bad rep really has nothing to do with the e36 at all. It is simply the car that replaced the legendary e30, so no matter what it was - wouldn't have been well-liked for that reason.

Of course, BMW didn't help. They ended the e30 run with an absolutely amazing looking car (plastic bumper e30) very "fresh". How did they start the e36? with black bumpers regardless of body color on the car - just like base model 90s Dodge Neons and Caravans. It looked like a total hackjob brand new right from the dealer - and right after the plastic bumpered e30 run. It made no sense.

BMW did cut interior quality too, that was a deserved low point. As mentioned, the US-M3 was a very watered down version. All these points sorta blend together to make the e36 the goose of the brands recent history. Would I own one? Maybe... but as mentioned - all around it are awesome cars, from the e28 and e30 I already have to the e34 I really want to the e39 I'd want as a 2nd choice to the e34, and the e46 which really grabs my attention but is still too "new" for me - what it means is that while I wouldn't "mind" an e36, I just don't think I'd be bothered with one because if I was to get another BMW, I can think of many more interesting ones to choose from. That said, it won't stop me from putting e36 parts on my e30 ;)

In fact, a member on one of the e30 sites has a quote by someone else as their sig. I remember it because I literally LOL'd the first time I read it "That is the most honor an e36 could ever receive - to be parted out and it's parts used on an e30."

Playdrv4me
06-15-11, 03:01 AM
'95 525i is the only e34 I'd genuinely consider unless I found some insanely incredibly mint earlier model, including the 535. The '95 also had other minor improvements, including the steering wheel with the colored/domed roundel and the other things that you mentioned. What I hate about e34s is that they seem to always beat or rusted to hell. People drive these cars and they drive them hard, which is good... but it doesn't leave the mint type of cars I like to buy around for later purchase much.

As for the Nikasil issue. I have the same feelings about things like that that I do about rust. If it's running on the Nikasil motor, even if it has good compression now, it was driven for some period of time when high sulphur fuel was still an issue, and I can never be 100 percent sure the problem won't get worse. As such I avoid the V8s altogether, and the same goes for any Jaguar with Nikasil. I know the BMW rags advise heavily that if you are going for a car that had the Nikasil bores to verify the engine number and ensure it was replaced under warranty (and really, the reason most of those cars that remain on the road are still on the road is because BMW replaced the motors under warranty. Still there were idiots who never had the *FREE* work done).

Night Wolf
06-15-11, 03:16 AM
I forgot about the updated '95 steering wheel. I'm not a fan of the early style (early airbag wheel that my '92 318iC had).

As for condition - I know these cars are built well and what they are made for, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy one ran hard. As long as the body/paint is in nice shape, interior not too bad, all the "other stuff" can be easily/cheaply fixed. By now, the car would be do for an entire suspension refresh/rebuild so none of that really matters anyway. The engine, as long as it's been maintained will continue to rev happy to redline all day long, clutches can be replaced and worst case - worn synchros in a manual gearbox can be replaced or another trasmission swapped in.

I'm not afriad of fixing stuff on an e34 - but with each newer generation of BMW is less and less of the tank-like "keep it running" qualities. Finding a tottally clapped out e34 and fixing it up (as I did my e28) would be a much more costly and difficult trip full of headaches. e28s and e30s are easy to bring back - maybe not cosmetically once the paint is ruined (quality paint jobs are expensive) but mechanically, they keep going and don't take much to get to "baseline" condition.

Which is why if/when I'm in the market for an e34 - it won't be a $500 special like my e28 was. I would seek one of the best examples I could - then daily drive the heck out of it.

Right now the e28 is serving daily driver status as my only driveable vehicle. As such I'm not doing too much to it that would put it down for any length of time. Once I get the Jeep back together I'll give the e28 some more attention. When it is back to performing "well enough" (it has a few quirks right now), then next time you pass by - you really gotta stop by and take it down the nearby 20-mile fun stretch of road and back. I'm not sure if you've driven one of these (what I consider) "old" BMWs, but it is just a pure joy to really push hard and toss around the turns. It really is nothing like the e36+ models a they've become more isloated, more luxury, more plush, more quiet etc... it's quite an interesting experience that I find addictive - which is why it is so fun to daily drive.

Stingroo
06-15-11, 08:26 AM
EHEM.
























Did anyone ever eat any god damn pizza?

gary88
06-15-11, 01:05 PM
The M3 is all about race heritage, and BMW has been using V8s in their race cars since the E46.

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/miscellaneous/automotive-history-twenty-years-of-the-bmw-m3/6622151+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2004-bmw-m3-e46-gtr-race-car.jpg

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/motorsport/news/2011/march/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started/477321-1-ger-DE/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started_news _detail.jpg

Plus how could you not love a V8 that revs to 8400 RPM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYiVpS2qlT4

M3s are meant to be cars you can take from the street to the track with little compromise. If you want a luxury car with a cushy ride and gobs of power that won't see track time buy an AMG :D

MacMuse
06-15-11, 01:29 PM
...

Did anyone ever eat any god damn pizza?

One was mentioned a few pages ago mid-paragraph. Giordano's, it was good despite a culturial bias toward thin-crust New Yaawrk crap.

Time to close the thread and send the rest of the discussion to a beemer forum somewhere.

:hide:

orconn
06-15-11, 01:35 PM
The M3 is all about race heritage, and BMW has been using V8s in their race cars since the E46.

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/miscellaneous/automotive-history-twenty-years-of-the-bmw-m3/6622151+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2004-bmw-m3-e46-gtr-race-car.jpg

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/motorsport/news/2011/march/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started/477321-1-ger-DE/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started_news _detail.jpg

Plus how could you not love a V8 that revs to 8400 RPM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYiVpS2qlT4

M3s are meant to be cars you can take from the street to the track with little compromise. If you want a luxury car with a cushy ride and gobs of power that won't see track time buy an AMG :D

Better yet I think I will just buy a top of the line "luxury" series E series! Or better yet a Cadillac DTS and save a bundle!

The "m" and AMG cars are fine for the "pub posers" and the few "boy racers" who are willing to sacrifice pleasant road use for whatever they are seeking from a car, for most of us they are just expensive conversation pieces.

Night Wolf
06-15-11, 02:01 PM
EHEM.
Did anyone ever eat any god damn pizza?

Easy on the language! And yes, that was covered many posts ago. I had an individual sized stuffed pizza with sasuage.


The M3 is all about race heritage, and BMW has been using V8s in their race cars since the E46.

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/miscellaneous/automotive-history-twenty-years-of-the-bmw-m3/6622151+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2004-bmw-m3-e46-gtr-race-car.jpg

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/motorsport/news/2011/march/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started/477321-1-ger-DE/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started_news _detail.jpg

Plus how could you not love a V8 that revs to 8400 RPM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYiVpS2qlT4

M3s are meant to be cars you can take from the street to the track with little compromise. If you want a luxury car with a cushy ride and gobs of power that won't see track time buy an AMG :D

Since the e46 - just over 10 years ago :shhh:

Real M3's have N/A I4s! :bouncy:

http://www.dancrouchblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/61b8_3.jpg

http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/1988_BMW_e30_M3_Engine_1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9UDz8Dgv1pg/SwPX4-8YM7I/AAAAAAAAHss/uEXmKteIT4o/s1600/E30-DTM-wallpapers-M3+(9).jpg

YlMZ_v7rJs8

Unlike all the following M3's, the e30 M3 was designed as a race car first, then brought to the market :).

Jesda
06-15-11, 02:25 PM
I'm eating some cold room service pizza. Pretty darn good, I must say, but it does make me miss the good stuff in Chicago.

Playdrv4me
06-16-11, 03:38 AM
The M3 is all about race heritage, and BMW has been using V8s in their race cars since the E46.

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/miscellaneous/automotive-history-twenty-years-of-the-bmw-m3/6622151+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2004-bmw-m3-e46-gtr-race-car.jpg

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/motorsport/news/2011/march/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started/477321-1-ger-DE/bmw_team_rll_ready_to_get_2011_season_started_news _detail.jpg

Plus how could you not love a V8 that revs to 8400 RPM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYiVpS2qlT4

M3s are meant to be cars you can take from the street to the track with little compromise. If you want a luxury car with a cushy ride and gobs of power that won't see track time buy an AMG :D

I guess I always considered myself the rare "practical" BMW enthusiast (and given Rick's adoration of even older cars than me, I guess I'll lump him in there as well) rather than the HARD-core follower most are, though I have nothing against them. I don't give a damn whether the racecar is a V8 or not, the Inline 6 is such a world class engine and capable of such potent amounts of energy that throwing a V8 in just ends up feeling like a cop-out to me. If anything I think the 6 cylinder should be used in the race-car rather than the 8 cylinder being used in the street car. I mean, they obviously proved they could achieve that whole no compromise position with the E46 M3 (a car that in many circles is still viewed as more purely superior in its mission to the E9x M3 outside of numbers on paper). Personally, the E46 M3 was too bone-jarring for my own tastes, but I nevertheless respect its place in automotive history. American manufacturers are brilliant with V8s, and I've always viewed the smaller Euro motors as the masterpieces from that side of the pond. BMW needs to build cars they can sell, and if that means making an easy sell to buyers who *think* bigger is better, then so be it... But if their future plans are any indication, I'm hoping they return to what they are masterful at.

And what of these extremes that a comfortable car can't also be insanely powerful? I'm pretty sure the CTS-V is every bit as home on the racetrack as it is canyon carving... and manages to be both the head of its class in terms of power and speed, and relatively comfortable. For that matter, more people are buyign M3s as daily drivers than ever before, so if anything the car has been softened as a whole.

Keep in mind I'm specifically discussing things 3 Series and smaller here. Don't particularly have any qualms with what happens above that level, and in fact, incredible things can happen when you get all the way up to the V12 which is essentially two I6s mated together. I simply don't believe in moving lockstep with everything BMW does

Playdrv4me
06-16-11, 05:02 AM
Unlike all the following M3's, the e30 M3 was designed as a race car first, then brought to the market :).

A very proud moment in the company's history this car was. I do understand they have to innovate though, and today's technological and safety demands would make this far more difficult. All I seek is a healthy balance of "throwback" for the 3, because once that model loses its way, all hope for the brand as a whole is lost.

Night Wolf
06-16-11, 08:42 AM
I agree with both above posts! While still world-class cars and engines, it seems what 'made' BMW over the last few decades is leaving. Maybe needed to stay competitive in the market? As it is now, only the 1-series and 3-series grab my attention, if those loose what they have going then it would be bad news for BMW. The 1-series to me looks great and I sort of view it as the spiritual successor to the e30. On paper I'm sure you can get better for less - same can be said about most BMW's but what makes these cars what they are is all the emotion they create for those passionate about 'driving'.

Stingroo
06-16-11, 09:19 AM
1-series :ack: I've only seen two on the road.

Night Wolf
06-16-11, 10:10 AM
1-series :ack: I've only seen two on the road.

I didn't like it at first either but then there was a beautiful blue convertible that I walked by everyday, and everyday I liked it more and more. The fact that it isn't so common and not everyone likes it, makes me like it more :). It is offered with two excellent I6's, NA and turbo, a real manual transmission, RWD, is small and light, offered in convertible with trandiontal soft top - it's 'my' type of BMW, and in the world of new ones, fits the bill just perfect. After all, these are the reasons I was first even interested in the brand.

Playdrv4me
06-16-11, 04:23 PM
Yep, and while I share Roo's feelings about the looks, I know that is exactly what Gary is going to say when he comes back to this thread... that I should forget about the 3 as it existed previously because the 1, or the 2, or whatever the hell else they slot below it will take over that mission allowing the 3 to move "upscale"... Of course, the 3 moving up falls into the "Answering a question nobody asked" category as far as I'm concerned.

Stingroo
06-16-11, 04:50 PM
Kinda like the X6.