: The Vendor Wars Will Stop



Lord Cadillac
06-06-11, 01:51 PM
I'm out of pocket today - so I can't attend to these issues right now. I will say that if the bickering between vendors doesn't stop IMMEDIATELY, ALL vendors involved will be refunded and sent on their way.

I'm extremely anxious to see who thinks I'm more worried about supporting vendors fees than the integrity of this community.

JimmyH
06-06-11, 01:58 PM
This is Sal's sandbox. You folks would do well to heed his warning.

The healthy atmosphere of this forum is priority #1 for all of us.

thebigjimsho
06-06-11, 02:04 PM
I'd leave the joking out of this thread. Vendors always need to be respectful of each other. And we of the mods when things get serious. Nothing worse than watching fees go up because of wars...

JimmyH
06-06-11, 02:04 PM
Let's please reserve this thread for worthwhile, constructive input to the topic at hand. Thanks.

Tedboss1
06-06-11, 02:29 PM
I value opinions from different vendors even if that they disagree.
It is still up to us to to decide which is the best product for our car.
It is important to me that the discussion between vendors is not personal and is based on to facts and figures no only opinions or assumptions.

JimmyH
06-06-11, 02:37 PM
That is the idea. As we are all adults, I believe we can get there.

thebigjimsho
06-06-11, 02:42 PM
Hope and Change.

Umrswimr
06-06-11, 02:48 PM
That is the idea. As we are all adults, I believe we can get there.

I guess the real question becomes- when is it a productive discussion and when does it become "bickering"? Everyone has different opinions (including vendors), so I'm not surprised we see discussions about the viability of different mods.

The biggest difference I see is a lack of data to back up claims. I see absolutely absurd claims with almost zero "proof". We saw some of that in the beginning of another forum I was on (headers, if you must know), and it really took repeated dyno results to finally get to the bottom of it. Until then, it was really, really messy. While I value the input of a lot of the forum vendors and tuners, I would like to see them back up their claims- I think it would cut down on the bickering.

hulksdaddy
06-06-11, 02:53 PM
Small pie, more mouths. Bound to be mud. Also, have to let vendors respond to unsubstantiated claims. Where is the line?

Florian
06-06-11, 02:54 PM
thats the problem, the vendors just chime in with no proof, just speculation and bravado. Then the crap hits the fan and the forum suffers. There seems to be just a few repeat offenders, and they know who they are, and they have been informed.

F

DrumStix
06-06-11, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the thread LC. I am not sure now if I should post a dyno sheet from that day to provide facts in our vendor forum or what to do. Plz advise.

JimmyH
06-06-11, 03:36 PM
It needs to be understood that we (the staff) are not truth police. We cannot substantiate vendor claims. Most of us don't understand this stuff anyway. I certainly don't.

And we should not have to be slander police either. Unfortunately, in this litigation-happy world of ours, we have to be. If you are going to bad-mouth someone, you better have substantial proof to show AS YOU MAKE THE POST. Not after the fact.

As for vendors bickering, that is just ridiculous. It says to me that the vendor doing this is not very confident in his own product. If he was, he would let the product speak for itself.

And anyone jumping on the bandwagon of these debates; you are only hurting yourselves. I know of at least two vendors, who could have brought something substantial to the table, take a look at the way members attack vendors and do a 180. They don't want it or need it. (one of those vendors had a real shot at curing V1 wheelhop; something that to date, has not been completely done)

JimmyH
06-06-11, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the thread LC. I am not sure now if I should post a dyno sheet from that day to provide facts in our vendor forum or what to do. Plz advise.

As Sal is taking personal involvement in this now, I would encourage you to send links and facts to him directly in a pm or email.

DrumStix
06-06-11, 05:45 PM
Very straight forward. We will do that Jimmy.

Drum

Luna.
06-06-11, 09:07 PM
I value opinions from different vendors even if that they disagree.
It is still up to us to to decide which is the best product for our car.

:yeah:

Personally, I don't mind a respectful disagreement, especially if such points out the potential positives, as well as negatives.

As a matter of fact, I believe that's about as good as it gets in terms of information. We can then weigh the risks ourselves and make our own, hopefully informed, decisions.

Disagreement isn't the enemy of a quality forum, lack of respect is.

MODS: Would the above be a fair assessment? I don't think you want to dissuade quality discussion/disagreements, you just want the disrespectful nonsense to fade, correct?

cbloveday
06-06-11, 09:22 PM
Well said Luna.

RapidRob
06-06-11, 10:21 PM
Excellent comment Luna!

Rob

Florian
06-06-11, 10:32 PM
:yeah:

Personally, I don't mind a respectful disagreement, especially if such points out the potential positives, as well as negatives.

As a matter of fact, I believe that's about as good as it gets in terms of information. We can then weigh the risks ourselves and make our own, hopefully informed, decisions.

Disagreement isn't the enemy of a quality forum, lack of respect is.

MODS: Would the above be a fair assessment? I don't think you want to dissuade quality discussion/disagreements, you just want the disrespectful nonsense to fade, correct?


not only fair, but accurate and a great post. Problem is, the vendors keep stepping on each others junk and it turns into a s*%tfest in about 3 posts. That said, there was supposed to be an agreement between vendors already, but that apparently means squat to certain folks here.

F

JimmyH
06-07-11, 12:15 AM
:yeah:

Personally, I don't mind a respectful disagreement, especially if such points out the potential positives, as well as negatives.

As a matter of fact, I believe that's about as good as it gets in terms of information. We can then weigh the risks ourselves and make our own, hopefully informed, decisions.

Disagreement isn't the enemy of a quality forum, lack of respect is.

MODS: Would the above be a fair assessment? I don't think you want to dissuade quality discussion/disagreements, you just want the disrespectful nonsense to fade, correct?



I agree. The world would be boring indeed if everybody agreed on EVERYTHING. To put it in the perspective of a forum full of car nuts like us, we would all be driving the same exact car.

But like F said, certain people take things way too seriously. And get very irritated very quick. We are all guilty of it at some point, I am sure. I was just on another forum today, where someone posted a really dumbass response to a question I posted. I was all set to make a wiseass comeback, then I stopped myself and decided to ignore him. If everyone did that, the dumbass posts would go nowhere and quickly get buried without moderators having to fire a single shot.

garfin
06-07-11, 09:45 AM
I was just on another forum today, where someone posted a really dumbass response to a question I posted. I was all set to make a wiseass comeback, then I stopped myself and decided to ignore him. If everyone did that, the dumbass posts would go nowhere and quickly get buried without moderators having to fire a single shot.

:word:

Excellent strategy! I've always followed the guideline that it is unprofessional to slam/put down the competition. Hold your head high, don't get involved in a negative back-and-forth and let your products or services speak for themselves. The customer will make the choice that's best for them. Whenever I've observed anyone trying to build themselves up by putting down their competition the party doing the "slamming" invariably comes out looking foolish.

Attempting to bait or criticize on the internet usually leads down a slippery slope where nobody benefits and things that are said cannot be retracted.

Can't remember who said this (and I'm certainly not suggesting for a second that anybody here is an idiot!), but...
"Never argue with an idiot because they'll bring you down to their level - and then beat you with their experience."

Best regards,

Elie

JimmyH
06-07-11, 12:41 PM
"Never argue with an idiot because they'll bring you down to their level - and then beat you with their experience."

post of the year

I can see why you are one of the "chosen ones." :thumbsup:

The Tony Show
06-07-11, 01:13 PM
It should have stopped a week ago, but human nature took over. The people involved keep either going out of their way looking for drama where none exits, or wanting to be the one to "get in the last shot" before it officially ends. Then we have certain members who feel like they're on "team A" or "team B" take it upon themselves to interject on behalf of their chosen vendor, drawing the whole thing out.

I'm just baffled at how a CADILLAC forum that caters to supposedly mature individuals would have these problems when a Mustang or Civic forum full of teenagers doesn't. Looking forward to everyone growing up and going back to their corner of the sandbox to play. This garbage does nothing but hurt the community and make everyone look bad.

Lord Cadillac
06-07-11, 01:31 PM
I haven't had to get involved very much - and I think things are moving in the right direction. So that does say something for the vendors here. Every so often we get into a bad groove - but I think this one is in the past. Let's see how things work moving forward...

Florian
06-07-11, 01:45 PM
you must remember, one of the more vocal players in the drama is on hiatus, as soon as they return, the assaches will begin anew.

F

PhxTriode
06-07-11, 02:37 PM
Is the person on hiatus a vendor?


Phx
KD Innovations

Florian
06-07-11, 02:43 PM
they may as well be.....

F

PhxTriode
06-07-11, 02:54 PM
But they are clearly not... and in no way represent either party. Simply a purchaser of goods for the record.

Florian
06-07-11, 03:02 PM
correct.

F

The Tony Show
06-07-11, 03:36 PM
If I were a vendor on a forum and one of my customers took it upon himself to poke his nose in every thread about another vendor and insult them and their work and tell everyone to go with my business instead, I'd PM him and tell him to cut it out because it makes me look bad.

Normal people who are happy with a product post once or twice about their happiness and move on- they don't start trolling the forum and slamming every other vendor. People repeatedly hammering on every vendor except one and continually looking to discredit or damage every vendor except one are causing a disruption and will not be tolerated.

PhxTriode
06-07-11, 05:09 PM
Your earlier PM was forwarded to the individual the day you sent it. So we have done as much as we can do to provent this further as we are not forum police.

Thank you for your input

Phx
KD Innovations

garfin
06-07-11, 05:53 PM
It should have stopped a week ago, but human nature took over. The people involved keep either going out of their way looking for drama where none exits, or wanting to be the one to "get in the last shot" before it officially ends. Then we have certain members who feel like they're on "team A" or "team B" take it upon themselves to interject on behalf of their chosen vendor, drawing the whole thing out.

I'm just baffled at how a CADILLAC forum that caters to supposedly mature individuals would have these problems when a Mustang or Civic forum full of teenagers doesn't. Looking forward to everyone growing up and going back to their corner of the sandbox to play. This garbage does nothing but hurt the community and make everyone look bad.

Yeah... FWIW, I saw this happen during a span that covered a 2 year period (or so) from approx. 1999 - 2001. Long story short, there were a couple of shops in the Toronto area involved in bashing and insulting each other, in the hopes of making the other look bad in order to take business away from the other.
Just as you describe, members of our local F-body club took sides and the club became so polarized as a result of this conflict, that many members just became so frustrated with all the drama and B.S. that they left the club. N ot good for the community at all.
Today, that club is only a shadow of its former self, with only a few members, I believe. Both shops ended up closing their doors or filing for bankruptcy years ago. I couldn't say whether the demise of those shops were as a direct result of the bickering, but I can say that by the time the end was near, neither establishment was left with anything close to a good reputation.
The conflict had escalated to the point where it spilled out onto the big F-body boards (LS1.com, LS1tech.com etc.) as both shops had customers in both the U.S. and Canada.
Never underestimate the power of the internet!

Best regards,

Elie

The Tony Show
06-07-11, 05:57 PM
Your earlier PM was forwarded to the individual the day you sent it. So we have done as much as we can do to provent this further as we are not forum police.

Thank you for your input

Phx
KD Innovations

Not every post in this thread is directed at you, Phx.

All vendors involved have already exchanged PMs with the site staff- this was put in public so everyone understands the rules.

jordan00escalade
06-07-11, 05:58 PM
lol.. ("Never argue with an idiot because they'll bring you down to their level - and then beat you with their experience.") My father use to say "the more you talk with an idiot the smarter they become, and the dumber you get."

I was just browsing and that comment reminded me of something I use to hear.

King335i
06-07-11, 06:16 PM
Is it possible that I'm as oblivious as I thought I was? I haven't noticed any vendor wars at all...

If you want vendor wars, head over to nagtroc.org, plenty of vendors bickering over there. :)

The Tony Show
06-07-11, 06:28 PM
That's because a good portion of it gets deleted by us "Forum Police". After a while it gets old, especially since this isn't a paying job- we're long time members who have just volunteered to clean up the trash and make sure the rules get followed.

Once it reaches critical mass, PMing people doesn't work and we're having to delete multiple posts per day to eliminate the bickering, the Boss shows up and lets everyone know that if you plan on staying, knock it off. It happens every few years.

King335i
06-07-11, 06:40 PM
That's because a good portion of it gets deleted by us "Forum Police". After a while it gets old, especially since this isn't a paying job- we're long time members who have just volunteered to clean up the trash and make sure the rules get followed.

Once it reaches critical mass, PMing people doesn't work and we're having to delete multiple posts per day to eliminate the bickering, the Boss shows up and lets everyone know that if you plan on staying, knock it off. It happens every few years.

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. What a drag, especially since there isn't a salary to go along with all those post deletions.

Oh well, know that the rest of us forum-goers appreciate the job you guys do!

DrumStix
06-07-11, 06:45 PM
lol.. ("Never argue with an idiot because they'll bring you down to their level - and then beat you with their experience.") My father use to say "the more you talk with an idiot the smarter they become, and the dumber you get."

I was just browsing and that comment reminded me of something I use to hear.

I actually thought of using that quote but how good would that have gone over. Also, as Garfin noted, going at it will not bring anyone anywhere good. It may indeed lead to the end of things on many fronts and nothing positive will come of it. I've seen it many times before as well and when combined with price wars, both sides lose out in that arms race.
The problem is with trying to get word out while while providing facts and having those facts hold up under a feeling that someone else presented as truth months ago. Things evolve and so must the discussion.

I can tell you, no one has all of the answers.

I am open for a good debate and discussion here. Luna made a good point that we should be able to discuss things in come detail and hash out differences in products and how these combinations provide the best results. I like that thought and I welcome any and all vendors here to discuss within this thread a way to move forward in a civil manner, having open discussions, providing data and staying on topic. All will benefit here so if you would, please provide your thoughts.

Drum
KD Innovations

PhxTriode
06-07-11, 06:48 PM
Not every post in this thread is directed at you, Phx.

All vendors involved have already exchanged PMs with the site staff- this was put in public so everyone understands the rules.

I want it to be very clear that we are doing our part to calm the storm publicly.

If you follow the thread, your previous statements timing did appear directly related to the conversation Florian and I was having and thus my response to this post and not all posts.

Thanks for the clarification

Phx
KD Innovation

Lord Cadillac
06-07-11, 08:44 PM
Just noting that I've been getting input from the team on all kinds of vendor bickering for over a month now - and I've been watching very closely. While I may not single out anyone via PM until I feel the need to do so, I have my own opinion on who's been causing more of the problems. I hope nobody takes my lack of action as an indication that I may not know what's going on around here. I happen to be very forgiving. I believe everybody deserves a second chance. And I'm VERY lenient in regards to getting people to that final chance.

qictrk
06-07-11, 09:51 PM
It seems to me that there are several vendors basically selling the same item, to a small market. Each vendor is trying to grab all he can so that he stays profitable. And sometimes, they step over the line. They just need a hand slap to let them know how to act civil. Cecil...............

cbloveday
06-08-11, 07:12 AM
I say the lanistas put their best gladiators in the arena and see who is left standing. JK

I hope it all works out and the vendors can be diplomatic and civil in their posts, cause I really enjoy this site (most of the time).

RippyPartsDept
06-08-11, 09:32 AM
nvmd
:nothing2add:

DrumStix
06-08-11, 06:59 PM
Darn, only kidding? :)

.