: K&N Filter On Caddy?



Chuck C
01-29-03, 01:57 AM
Anybody have experience/results of adding a K&N air filter to their Northstar? If so, please share!

Devil_concours
01-29-03, 02:14 AM
i would like to know too. Is it worth the few extra $?

Katshot
01-29-03, 09:04 AM
I have one on my Fleetwood and love it. As far as I know, K&N does not offer a Fuel Injection Performance Kit for Cadillacs. A quick check at their website will confirm this. You CAN however still use the main part of the kit, the cone filter. The problem is, you're on your own as to how to plumb it into the intake. Most guys I know use simple PVC piping from Home Depot and rubber sleeves/clamps. Either way, you will notice a rather significant improvement in both performance, and MPG. Of course, to get the most increase, you'll need to modify the exhaust as well to increase flow. Just remember that an engine is just a big air pump, and if you increase the engines ability to GET air, you've got to increase it's ability to EXHAUST the air.

Devil_concours
01-29-03, 10:14 AM
what about the k&n universal replacement filters?

kcnewell
01-29-03, 11:03 AM
I Highly recommend them. I run K&N filters in everything I own.

jadcock
01-30-03, 09:44 AM
I'm from the against-K&N camp. Check out my experiences with a K&N cone here:

http://jadcock.oldsgmail.com/cadsls/filter.html

Note, these are MY experiences -- yours may vary. Most of the K&N "kick" is perceived because of the loud roar produced by the filter. You won't gain but maybe 2-3 horsepower by adding one.

Want to prove it to yourself? Install a vacuum gauge in the intake tract, between the throttle body and the filter. Run the engine at varying speeds, WOT, idle, etc. You will probably NEVER see a vacuum. I tried it and never saw a vacuum on mine. This means that your engine is NEVER pulling more air than the stock tubing and paper filter can provide.

Even if you DO see a slight vacuum sometimes, it's certainly not constant, and you'll certainly rarely see the benefits of a K&N filter on the average street car. Plus, you run the risk of over-oiling them and contaminating your MAF sensor.

Katshot
01-30-03, 10:30 AM
Jason,
Sorry you went through so much work and ended up unsatisfied. I would say you did a good job on the install overall. Your assertions about the vacuum gauge in the intake tract might seem to be valid but in truth you'll find that in order to see a reading on a standard over-the-counter vacuum gauge, you'd have to have a rather substantial restriction. The fact that you said you had better high RPM performance would indicate that you were obtaining better flow from the K&N filter. As for the better low-speed throttle responce you said you got with the OEM assembly, I would say that POSSIBLY you should've reset the PCM so that the short-term block learning curve would've been a little quicker for you. In other words, it's possible that the PCM would've adjusted to the new filter if given time. Who knows?
I must admit, you're the first person that actually had any performance decreases after installing a less-restrictive filter.

jadcock
01-30-03, 11:04 AM
Hey Kevin:

I believe the upper RPM gains were at least half perception -- just because of the noise. I believe the car pulls just as hard with the proper filter in there. Even given any upper end gains, the lower end disappointments were not worth it.

I also believe heat was a factor. Even though I built a heat shield for the filter, I think it was still pulling hot air. Similar results are posted at www.caddyinfo.com -- loss of performance with a cone filter.

Another factor is the "stockness" of the rest of my vehicle. Everything is showroom stock on the car, with no modifications whatsoever. If I had performance mufflers on the car, I may have seen different results. But I don't want performance mufflers on it -- "silent but violent" is my motto. :)

It still G-techs at 6.7-6.9 seconds 0-60 -- that's well ahead of most imports, stock and modified. Also, many older Mustang and Camaro owners would be surprised. I ran dead-even with a SC3800 GTP one time (and they're supposed to be 6.7 0-60).

(In a nutshell, I'm happy with the performance of the car and don't wish to modify it any further; thus, keeping the cone filter wasn't worth the compromise to me.)

Katshot
01-30-03, 01:54 PM
With me, and my car, even if it didn't net me anything, I STILL would've done it for the intake roar. Gotta LOVE that small block. Add to that, the 3-chamber FlowMasters at full throttle and all I can say is my pants get tight dude! And God what looks you get from the guy you just went by ;)
Get me around anything with an engine and I go right back to being a kid, I just can't help it.

Dead Sled
01-30-03, 02:06 PM
I would sugest a high performance Amsoil filter from what Ive seen they out preform K&N and others

jadcock
01-30-03, 02:49 PM
I'm sure there's a reason that paper filters are by far the most common out there -- and why many trucking companies and construction firms don't use K&N and other "high performance" filters. There's usually an inverse correlation between flow and filtering. You can look right through a K&N filter -- the filter media is so loose, you can see through it. The oil is supposed to catch everything, but that oil is also getting into your throttle body and MAF sensor, etc. Yuck. People have fouled their MAF sensors with K&Ns. Luckily, I haven't heard of a Caddy guy doing that, but maybe it's a matter of time?

Here's a REAL test of differing filters, rather than the advertising claims that they make:

http://www.lubespecialist.com/airfilt.htm

That guy is obviously an Amsoil fan, but unless he flat-out lied about his numbers, I think they're probably about right. I've heard similar stories from other people. And his results seem to match my experience -- the K&N produces no real speakable gains in performance -- and probably passes more dirt to your engine in the process.

Katshot
01-30-03, 05:10 PM
Any filter that reduces restiction to airflow WILL give you an increase in performance to a point. As long as the filter is able to match the maximum flow of the engine, I don't care what media it's made of.
The comment about how you can see through the filter and that the oil is supposed to catch the dirt, and that you then get oil in the intake and sensors etc. is a little mis-leading. The reason is this; Oil-bathed filters ARE the best, and always have been. Matter of fact, they've been around for years (I think they were actually the first filters used in cars). The problem is that they require some maintenance, and that doesn't fit in with our throw-away society. People just want to pull out the old one and throw in the new one. Unfortunately, oil-bathed filters are a little more work than that. But if they are serviced CORRECTLY, they will do a superior job. I've seen guys buying K&N filters and improperly oiling them, improperly cleaning them, etc. and I think THAT'S why they have problems.
And there ARE many copy-cat cone filters that do not do a good job and they are helping to give ALL cone filters a bad name.
In MOST cases, the OEM air filter does a fine job, but will provide a degree of airflow restriction. That's why GENERALLY a K&N replacement filter (and to a greater degree, the cone filter), will provide a SLIGHT power increase. Maybe it's only a couple HP, maybe it's more. But anytime I can get a couple HP by just changing a filter, I'm gonna do it. HP is too hard to find, and it gets rather expensive. If you don't intend to do any mods to your car, the drop-in filter will do just fine. But if you intend to do any mods to either the exhaust, or intake, you should go for the cone filter.

Dead Sled
01-30-03, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by jadcock
I'm sure there's a reason that paper filters are by far the most common out there -- and why many trucking companies and construction firms don't use K&N and other "high performance" filters.

filters for the big Donaldson and Vortox air clearners can cost upwards of $250 EACH but also last almost as long as most High performance filters because you just dont throw away a $250 filter every oil change. Most drivers simpley blow the dust out of them when ever they start noticing a loss of power or whe the filter restriction guage lets you know. but you know? if K&N made a filter for my big truck if run em :D

Allante North *
01-30-03, 06:06 PM
My Caddy had the K&N filter in it when I got the car. Its a drop in filter and not the cone. I have cleaned it and oiled it as per the instructions on the package. I also still have the paper filter that was in the K&N box when I got the car. It is still clean, and I may try a comparison when I go to the track this spring to see if there is any difference. The car also has one of those Tornado air domaflitchies in it as well. I will try a run with and without the Tornado to see if there is any difference. Has anyone else had any experience with the Tornado? I read on the GMForum that its a piece of crap, but I'm no expert. Any thoughts on this would be great.

jadcock
01-30-03, 06:10 PM
Katshot, I agree with you about the improper oiling issues. The fact that newer machines are much more sensitive to this brings this out. Back when you had a carburetor, it didn't matter how much oil you put on it. But with a very sensitive (and expensive) MAF sensor, extra oil can be an expensive endeavor.

BeelzeBob
01-31-03, 10:56 AM
I don't know anything about the Tornado.. If anyone does, please start a seperate topic. This way, we can keep this thread about the K&N. :D Anyone interested in Tornado information would probably not think to come here...

peatea
01-31-03, 11:30 AM
Does anyone know why they don't make a K&N system for the northstar?

Pat

Dead Sled
01-31-03, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by peatea
Does anyone know why they don't make a K&N system for the northstar?

Pat

Caddys are still not thought of as Hot Rods, thats my guess

Katshot
01-31-03, 04:42 PM
Welcome to MY world! Trying to hot rod a Caddy is looked at by the performance industry as total loonacy(probably mis-spelled).
I've been dealing with parts stores and aftermarket manufacturers telling me there aren't anything available for my car for years. Luckily for me, it happens to have the same drivetrain as an Impala SS so most things can be swapped onto my car. But still, you're right, Cadillacs aren't thought of as a car that someone would ever hotrod.

Dead Sled
01-31-03, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Katshot
Welcome to MY world! Trying to hot rod a Caddy is looked at by the performance industry as total loonacy(probably mis-spelled).
I've been dealing with parts stores and aftermarket manufacturers telling me there aren't anything available for my car for years. Luckily for me, it happens to have the same drivetrain as an Impala SS so most things can be swapped onto my car. But still, you're right, Cadillacs aren't thought of as a car that someone would ever hotrod.

you're lucky I wish I could find out what shares parts with a 77 fleetwood.

elwesso
02-01-03, 08:04 PM
I was thinking about getting a KN filter, and putting in a cold air intake like this: http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=28697&highlight=cold+air

Do you think that it would be more worthwhile to do that (it doesnt sound hard), or to put a cone filter in? On paper, that method looks better, because witha cone filter you are going to suck in hot air from the engine compartment, and the airbox helps rid this.

Katshot
02-02-03, 12:40 PM
Wes,
Your sig says 95 Fleetwood, if that's the car you're considering doing this to, go out and get a K&N Fuel Injection Performance Kit for a Impala SS. It bolts right into our cars. If you want to see it installed, go to my site at CarDomain and see the pics.

elwesso
02-02-03, 01:23 PM
I wouldnt be doing this to the fleetwood, im gonna keep that stock. I was looking to do it on the northstar, either on a seville or eldorado.

eldawg4100
02-13-03, 03:58 AM
sorry to say, i dont believe in the K&N. in some applications they work just as good as paper.

proven again and again in tests, some stock paper filters flow better.

if your going to use one, get an oil analysis done!!!

in most cases, the K&N doesnt filter as well, leaving you with a high Si(silicon) count.... not good
so i woud run one for 3k miles, get oil analysis to see whats going on. i still say the paper will out filter it. more flow = more dirt...its no myth

Katshot
02-13-03, 08:54 AM
I'm not sure what tests you've been reading but the dyno tests I've seen indicate that the K&N filters (and many others) do outperform the stock paper filters. As for filtering capability, it only makes sense that when you increase flow, you're doing so by decreasing restriction. This is done by increasing the size of the passages in the filter, which in turn will certainly increase the likelihood of particulate ingestion by the engine. Of course if you want to increase flow WITHOUT the danger of sucking extra stuff into the engine, you COULD increase the the filter size. Overall, the full-size K&N cone filter does have an increased filter area and if you use the oil properly, the flitration SHOULD be only minimally less than with a stock filter, if at all.

eldawg4100
02-13-03, 03:02 PM
yes but... a direct replacement panel will not filter as effectively as a stock paper.

it is more common on german cars, the paper flows better than K&N but I think an LS1 forum did the test, and it flowed no better than stock. I have read many other similar reports. When i put a K&N filter on my old 1985 eldorado, it ran like crap. a stock delco i put back on made it run like it used to.

elwesso
02-13-03, 04:17 PM
Well, if it only increases HP maybe 1 or 2 and you can get filter oil and other crap in there, then i may just stay with stock paper. Are there any other high flow filters that do not require oiling?

Dead Sled
02-13-03, 05:21 PM
I put my vote in for Amsoil filters

elwesso
02-13-03, 05:40 PM
I have heard about those, do those work better than KN and do not require oiling?

Dead Sled
02-13-03, 07:14 PM
Amsoil Air Filters (http://www.amsoil.com/products/ts.html)

I like these better than K&N but I don't really know if they have all the same stlye filters as K&N, I sure they do though

Oiled filters I think are the best. Some swear by Oil Bath filters

most all High performance are oiled. Oil makes up for the flitering you loose with flow. and flow is what makes HP

there are lots of manufactures that are getting into this technology, like Accel, Barry Grant, Holley, and about every one who makes cold air induction kits

elwesso
02-13-03, 07:17 PM
I have also heard that the oil can come off, and mess up oxygen sensors, MAFS, and other systems like that.

Dead Sled
02-13-03, 07:22 PM
I don't think it should be THAT well oiled

elwesso
02-13-03, 07:25 PM
that is just what i heard......

Dead Sled
02-13-03, 07:28 PM
I've heard that too but just pass it off as urban ledgend

Chuck C
02-13-03, 08:49 PM
well, it looks like spending $50 for the filter is not worth it!

elwesso
02-13-03, 08:54 PM
I wouldnt think that cadillac would put in a filter that had that much restriction.

kcnewell
02-13-03, 09:38 PM
OK guys, I use K&N filters all the time. I run them in everything! They don't hurt anything!! Do they flow better? Maybe, I think so. Do they work good? Yes! Better than Stock I.M.H.O. If you oil them too much ( and MOST people DO! ) They'll lose the excess oil into the intake and it will burn! That process doesn't take very long! When you spray the oil onto the filter you just need to use enough to put a slight film on the filter...If it's pink you put on to much! If it starts to get reddish you've put on WAY too much! A little oil goes a long way. If you want to find out spill some! A table spoon full on your work bench can make a hell of a mess if you don't clean up immediately! I won't run my cars on ANY filter except a K&N! I also run K&N oil filters and recommend them to my customers. I.M.H.O. They're the finest filters on the market!


One more thing..Cadillac, Like any other manufacturer buys the least expensive filters they can buy! They just happen to be wearing the AC Delco brand name! You don't really know for sure what manufacturer made them. With K&N...I Know exactly who made them!

elwesso
02-13-03, 10:16 PM
I dont know, ill probably end up getting some sort of filter, like a KN.

KC, how often do you take it off and oil it?

kcnewell
02-13-03, 10:37 PM
Regular service intervals...You clean it with K&N cleaner ( NOT DISH SOAP ) rinse it out with water, Shake off the excess ( DO NOT USE COMPRESSED AIR ) let it sit and dry in the sun or ( If you're not in California or Florida ) the house near a source of dry warmth, Then oil it lightly ( Use K&N spray oil if you can it goes on more evenly! ) Then reinstall it and you're done.

elwesso
02-13-03, 10:45 PM
sounds easy enough

Dead Sled
02-13-03, 11:09 PM
tis very easy.

jadcock
02-13-03, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by elwesso
I wouldnt think that cadillac would put in a filter that had that much restriction.

Cadillac puts in a safe filter with sufficient flow. The filter works with the rest of the system. The "public" says the manufacturer gets cheap on the design to save money. The entire truth is that much time and money is put into the design and the end selection (in this case, filter) is one that provides the correct level of performance. Sure, they're going to chose the least expensive product that will satisfy the requirements, but the AC filter satisfies the design requirements! It's cheaper over the long long run to have a cleanable filter because you don't ever have to replace it. If a filter like K&N's filter had performance that was satisfactory to Cadillac, they'd have used it and claimed no filter replacements for the life of the vehicle, and lowered the operating cost. This is what they did with the spark plugs. Northstars are equipped with dual platinum plugs which are good, essentially, for the life of the vehicle. It's beneficial to install these because the operating cost over many miles goes down. If the K&N was sufficient, Cadillac would have used it.

It's common knowledge that a filter with greater flow will offer less filtration. People on this board say, "well sure, that makes sense." 'Scuse me, did I miss something? You're knowingly putting on a filter with less filtration to gain what, 3...4 horsepower tops? Are you kidding me? :confused: K&N's own literature says that dirt helps filter the air better...that's because there isn't enough filtration by itself! They're saying that when you install a clean filter, some dirt will get by until enough dirt builds up to increase the filtration. Gimme a break!

Think of it this way: it's IMPOSSIBLE to over-oil a paper filter (because you don't have to oil it). It's IMPOSSIBLE to get insufficient filtration with a paper filter (unless damaged) because this is what the factory specified for this application.

Do some testing on your own, to see if it's really worth it for you. Install a vacuum gauge in the inlet tube after the air filter. This will measure the vacuum, if any, in the intake tube. Vacuum will only be present if the engine is trying to suck more air through that tube than the filter can provide. I'll bet you a K&N filter that you won't show any vacuum on that gauge for 95% of the time. Possibly, at WOT at redline, your paper filter might show some restriction, but for the vast majority of times, you won't see any gain with a K&N (on a Northstar Caddy).

Performance is largely perception, and if you're going for that K&N growl, that's what you'll get. If you were to actually run track times, I doubt you'll see much benefit. And if any benefit you do see is worth compromising the cleanliness of your engine, then go for it. I personally don't take that risk, but that's my opinion. Everyone is certainly entitled to theirs. :D

Dead Sled
02-14-03, 12:05 AM
are you seeing more blown engines because of the more intrusion of minute particulate matter with the use of a K&N? even if it makes it to your oil your oil still cleans out more carp from the comustion process.

the K&N will compliment other mods to your engine. so the more you start will the more you'll benefit from a filter like that. and in racing ever lil bit helps. that hundreth of a second on a 1/4 mile may mean win or loose.

elwesso
02-14-03, 12:08 PM
But, most people dont race cadillacs. I think jason is talking about street car purposes. A KN may provide better performance in racing, but little or none in street cars.

Dead Sled
02-14-03, 12:54 PM
exactly Im not trying to say every one must have one. but every little bit helps

elwesso
02-14-03, 02:34 PM
True, but i am more concerned about having better filtration than having 2 horsepower. It is good for racing engines because they are going to have to be rebuilt after a few races, so its not going to matter if junk gets in there.

Katshot
02-15-03, 10:57 AM
Jason,
I think we went over the vacuum gauge issue before, didn't we?
An average gauge that you would buy in an auto parts store will never have the sensitivity to prove what you want to prove.
The OEM uses platinum plugs for EXACTLY one reason, to keep people out of the engine bay. Are they anywhere near the best fpr performance? HELL NO! Platinum is actually a rather poor conductor, especially as compared to other plug tips. It just happens to be durable.
As for the paper vs. reusable media air filters, there are several reasons why the OEM uses paper:
1. price
2. ease of replacement
3. gives service departments something to charge for on every service visit.
4. the filtration capability of the media is NOT dependant on proper specific service techniques.
5. reusable media filters require cleaning and oiling which produces hazardous waste.
6. if improperly serviced, the reusable filter media can constitute a rather sizable intake restriction thereby decreasing MPG and performance.
7. excess oil CAN coat MAF sensor and thereby adversely affect the sensors ability to properly regulate air/fuel mixture.

Overall, as you pointed out, the paper filter will provide "adequate" airflow to the engine but, in the upper rev-range they can (and generally do) provide a degree of airflow restriction. This is why they are so popular among the performance crowd. You're right, you will have negligable performance increase in lower rev-range from a higher flowing filter regardless of what filter media is used because the flow REQUIREMENTS of the engine are well within the capabilities of the more restrictive filter. Hell, if all you did was drive around all day in city traffic, you could strap a lawn-mower filter to it and it would be fine.
I have never found ANY experienced technicians that would argue the point that an oiled filter media air filter is NOT superior to a plain paper filter. So the point is, not whether the one is BETTER than the other but, whether one is more user-freindly than the other. The oiled, reusable filter IMHO is a better filter in virtually everyway. It just requires a little bit more "proper" maintenance.

kcnewell
02-15-03, 12:32 PM
Yeah!....What he said! LOL!

elwesso
02-15-03, 08:07 PM
I cant argue with that.

Katshot
02-15-03, 08:45 PM
If there's anything else to say about K&N filters vs. OEM paper filters, I'd like to hear it now. Otherwise, let's talk about something REALLY important, like......which is better, beer, or tequila ;)
Put me down for AGAVE JUICE :D

kcnewell
02-15-03, 08:53 PM
Cabo Wabo?

elwesso
02-15-03, 10:01 PM
Scotch and water, hold the scotch......

Mad'lac
02-15-03, 11:58 PM
Jose Cuervo Tequilla Blanco

Katshot
02-16-03, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by kcnewell
Cabo Wabo?
WHAT?:confused:

elwesso
02-16-03, 11:19 AM
Ive never heard that one either. Is it a KC specialty? :D

kcnewell
02-16-03, 11:29 AM
Tequila....Made by Sammy Hagar....Blue bottle , Good sh*t!

jadcock
02-16-03, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Katshot
If there's anything else to say about K&N filters vs. OEM paper filters, I'd like to hear it now. Otherwise, let's talk about something REALLY important, like......which is better, beer, or tequila ;)
Put me down for AGAVE JUICE :D

"To each his own" I guess is all that's left to be said. As long as whatever you do makes you happy...

Me? I prefer a stiff margarita. I choose tequilla over beer.

elwesso
02-16-03, 05:59 PM
I suppose its like everything else in life, it is someways good and someways bad.

Dead Sled
02-16-03, 07:19 PM
yeah what Kat said

beer and Jose Cuervo Gold and margaritas its all good

Katshot
02-16-03, 11:41 PM
A stiff margarita huh? I'm having one as we speak.
I keep a pitcher in the 'fridge
Nectar of the Gods :D
I think I'm the reason there's a shortage ;)