: Time Sert Kit Needed.



w98seeng
05-30-11, 08:25 AM
I have a 2001 Deville and I am in the middle of doing the Hg's. I do have another post about that job but I am posting again only asking for information about Time Serts.

1) Does anyone have an installation kit they want to sell? I will buy the inserts separately.

2) Looking on eBay I have found a couple of kits for the pre 2000 Northstar, but nothing for my 2001. I know the bolt holes on the newer engines are deeper on one side of the head than the other, but how does the kit differ? Are the drills and taps different or just the inserts?

What is the sizes I need? The size of the drills, taps and inserts? Kits like this one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TIME-SERT-NEW-1012-M10-X-1-25-Metric-Thread-Repair-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4158cd0491QQitemZ28066 2705297QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
are available without any drilling guides, which I can make myself.

What am I looking for in sizes?

Many Thanks,
Ian

postman2000
05-30-11, 09:46 AM
Why would you use Time Serts? They are not good and are only a temporary fix.Contact Jake at Northstar Performance and purchase his Head Stud Kit if you really wanna do this the right way..Use Time Serts and you more than likely will be doing them over again in the near future.. I installed Jakes kit in my car 2 years (28,000 miles) ago..No problems what so ever..

postman2000
05-30-11, 09:49 AM
IM sorry i didnt see your other post about fixing it for your friend the car dealer.. Your friend sounds like someone i would not wanna buy a car off of..

w98seeng
05-30-11, 11:59 AM
Your friend sounds like someone i would not wanna buy a car off of..

He is the typical used car salesman. Would you be surprised if I told you this is normal for used cars sales? Why spend $400 if you can spend $350 and make that extra $50?

The car will be sold to someone who will have a car that might or might not have HG problems down the road. In the used car business, unless you are giving a warranty, you only address the issues you have to fix.

I bought a 2001 Caravan last summer at auction for $500. It needed brakes all around and a new hood. The A/C wasn't working either. My friend said "only fix what is needed for selling it", I said I wanted to keep it. I replaced the 4 rotors, 4 calipers and 2 sets of pads. I bought a new A/C compressor off eBay and replaced the hood (instead of bondo as my friend suggested) for $80 (new). I take care of my vehicles, but if it was for sale I wouldn't have spent $1300 on it as I did.

Anyway, I still need to get some info on Time serts. Studs are out of the question.

Ian

Ranger
05-30-11, 12:38 PM
Why would you use Time Serts? They are not good and are only a temporary fix.
That is not true. Timesert is the official GM repair and has worked on many, many cars. I have not heard of many failures. Norm's inserts and Jake's studs are probably a little better because of the coarser thread pitch, but I think the 2000+ Timeserts have a coarser pitch as well, but don't hold me to that one. I would not be concerned about it if Timeserts are used.

RippyPartsDept
05-30-11, 01:03 PM
:yeah:

we've been using TimeSerts from the get-go (being a dealership) and have only had problems due to install error ... which has only been once or twice in the 8 years that i've been here

Submariner409
05-30-11, 02:56 PM
The Timesert statement in post #2 is another example of "I heard it from a friend of my best friend's father, who works for a Datsun dealership".

If you don't have first hand hands-on experience with Timeserts, don't knock the product. They're in daily use all over the world in every sort of thread repair situation imaginable.

FWIW there have been some royal DIY screwups with Norm's Inserts and Jake's studs. NOTHING is gearhead-proof !!

89falcon
05-30-11, 04:41 PM
Do you plan to ever plan to do another one of these jobs? If you do, I'd go straight for the "bigserts".....the oversize timeserts for the engine......that way if you ever crack one open and find it's already been timeserted, no problem.....plus, the biserts....are bigger....so a better "bite" in the block....I don't think there is much diff in price....

RippyPartsDept
05-30-11, 04:47 PM
:yeah:

when i say TimeSerts i mean to say BigSerts ... we switched over to them years and years ago

stoveguyy
05-30-11, 05:41 PM
bigserts are larger OD to compensate for drilling out the original timesert threads? so the wall thickness is thicker? and they still are cold formed/expanded to lock them into the block threads? anyone know the stock timesert wall thickness vs the bigsert thickness?

Ranger
05-30-11, 09:52 PM
You might find that info on their web site. http://www.timesert.com

w98seeng
05-31-11, 08:31 AM
Thank you for all the info, but, I am looking for info on installation kits. Then Timeserts site does not tell you the difference between the different kits.

1) Does anyone have an installation kit they want to sell? I will buy the inserts separately.

2) Looking on eBay I have found a couple of kits for the pre 2000 Northstar, but nothing for my 2001. I know the bolt holes on the newer engines are deeper on one side of the head than the other, but how does the kit differ? Are the drills and taps different or just the inserts?

What is the sizes I need? The size of the drills, taps and inserts? Kits like this one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TIME-...motiveQ5fTools
are available without any drilling guides, which I can make myself.

What am I looking for in sizes?

Ian

RippyPartsDept
05-31-11, 10:34 AM
Ranger... he'll never find the info he's looking for at that link... ;)

try this one Ian: http://www.timesert.com/html/gm.html

----

also, it appears that there are some kits on ebay that are expensive and some that are cheap...
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m39&_nkw=TIME+SERT+KIT
sometimes you get what you pay for

Ranger
05-31-11, 11:32 AM
I figured he would find that page from their home page. I didn't want to post it because I was not exactly sure what he was looking for.

RippyPartsDept
05-31-11, 12:02 PM
:) yah i'm pretty sure that page has the differences on there

w98seeng
05-31-11, 12:50 PM
Thanks, I did find that page, but it really doesn't tell you what the difference between the two kits are, just that they are used on different years. I emailed someone on eBay who sells them and asked them. Their response was...

The 2000 and 500 kits are identical, except the 2000 kit is more user friendly when fixing the 2000 motor. There are two reliefs in the tools for the 2000, upper and lower hole depths.

I'm still looking for a used kit. What do people do with their kits when they finish the repair? I can't find any used.

Ian

89falcon
05-31-11, 02:00 PM
"I'm still looking for a used kit. What do people do with their kits when they finish the repair? I can't find any used."


Well, doing that type repair is pretty rare for a home garage......so people who buy it for a shop, keep it for the next job, and the ones that buy it for one job, sell it on ebay for over $300........

Too bad you weren't looking for one a year or two ago....stuff from closing dealers was going fairly cheap at auctions......

RippyPartsDept
05-31-11, 03:19 PM
another reason to consider the NorthStar Performance SureGrip Stud Kit

vincentm
05-31-11, 04:28 PM
another reason to consider the NorthStar Performance SureGrip Stud Kit

:yeah: loving it thus far, i know my engine is smiling

w98seeng
05-31-11, 09:48 PM
Well, doing that type repair is pretty rare for a home garage

From what I see on this forum, this repair is being done by a lot of people.

Here's a stupid question, since the aluminum is much softer than the steel drill bit, is it possible to drill the hole without a guide? Will the existing hole guide the bit down?

It seems like it's the guide that makes the kit so expensive.

Ian

89falcon
05-31-11, 10:31 PM
From what I see on this forum, this repair is being done by a lot of people.

Here's a stupid question, since the aluminum is much softer than the steel drill bit, is it possible to drill the hole without a guide? Will the existing hole guide the bit down?

It seems like it's the guide that makes the kit so expensive.

Ian

Just people here......if you consider the number of northstars and the number of cars in the salvage yards......not that many people are doing it.

I DIDN'T do it....I just found a used motor and swapped it out.....but from what I understand, doing it without a guide, BECAUSE of the soft block, is a very dangerous thing to do...the drill bit can "grab" the aluminum and take off....IOW, not matter the fix (Timeserts, Norms's or Studs), USE A GUIDE PLATE!

postman2000
05-31-11, 10:32 PM
If Bigserts are bigger to compensate for the larger diameter hole now there from the the original timesert...How good can these Timeserts be?...I mean really.. How many of Jakes studs have pulled from the block......And to say that Timeserts are the acceptable repair because they are the official GM repair...Look who dropped the ball on these engines to begin with...GM...So why would i have faith in their repair method.. I am a diehard GM and especially Cadillac guy..But they screwd up with this head bolt crap..How many Hondas and Toyotas do you see "popping their tops" at under 100,000 miles.. And Submariner I do believe Timeserts can be used for many purposes..Just not in an application like Headgaskets..Can anybody on here honestly say that they would prefer Timeserts in their car over Jakes studs...I dont think that I will see any hands raising on that question..But to those of you who insist on using Timeserts..You have my blessings.. Thanks for the argument...

stoveguyy
06-01-11, 11:06 PM
is a drill and tap worth 500? its like a bmw tool. it allows you to fix a very expensive motor. you can sell a timesert kit when done. get your money back. nothing really to sell on a stud kit. your buying the custom made studs. they throw in a tap block to make your life easier. i have no issues with timeserts. the bigsert is to repair a poorly installed timesert. you hear of broken timeserts occasionally. but its rare to hear of a timesert pulling out of block.

RippyPartsDept
06-02-11, 12:35 AM
you can buy the Suregrip kit minus the redundant tools for less, i think

and i agree w/ you WRT timeserts/bigserts

tateos
06-02-11, 01:15 PM
I have a Norm's kit - I used it once (worked great!) - don't expect to use it again, so I suppose I would sell it. Not sure what it's worth - without the (already used) inserts, it's just a couple taps and a drill bit and a tap block. Let me know if interested

Richard Moore
877-992-3766 X516

97EldoCoupe
06-02-11, 01:24 PM
No the drill and tap is not worth $500.

$325 shipped for the studs, nuts, and washers
$224 for the tool kit shipped - alignment plate, four custom machined bolts to hold down the plate, premium drill bit with preset stop, premium tap, and a bottle of thread locker.

There is continuous claims my kit is too expensive.

- This is not made overseas- drills, taps, all premium stuff from Norseman Drill and Tool in St. Paul, USA- Not cheap. Parts, bolts, etc. manufactured in Canada.

- Shipping IS included.
- Head bolts are no longer needed (save money there)
- And the mark-up on my cost to produce covers overhead, further expansion and development, original development costs, my salary,
- And you wind up being able to fix an old Northstar with a 99%+ chance that you will not have re-failure, your block won't crack, and it even works after time-serts have pulled out.

What is a working engine and piece of mind worth? To me it would be worth every red cent of that $549. If this option was available when I had to fix my 97 Eldo (without having to devleop this first) I would not have even given it a second thought. Stud the engine and be done.

FWIW timeserts pull all the time. If nobody believes that, sit at my desk for a week taking calls. Come see the engines that come through my shop. stoveguyy, Someone from your city named John just had his car fixed here a couple of weeks ago- and the reason behind that? Pulled time-serts. Why did the biggest engine remanufacturer in the USA come to me?

To each his own. I need to know before setting up in the USA if I have the support behind me to continue developement and production on the stud kit. I have the resources now to do so but if it's going to be wasted money, I'll simply stay here and take life a bit easier. Reclaim my weekends and weeknights.

vincentm
06-02-11, 01:55 PM
Pulled sert on my repair at C.C.C

http://carrollcustomcadillac.com/images/Vencint%204%20014.jpg

97EldoCoupe
06-02-11, 02:42 PM
^^^^ That's what no vehicle owner wants to go through.

Timeserts are only worth their weight in scrap metal. Any insert for that matter. I made an M11 insert with a 5/8x11 outer wall. Then I machined off the 5/8" threads and use it to show people how the best insert on the market, still have a very thin wall. The only good thing about timeserts is that the threads are synchronized- but still the threads are paper thin.

The success of timeserts are based on luck (rather, very accurate torque, very good block material, accurate drilling) and even if they work initially, the chance of refailure is high. Nobody wants to go through this repair twice if they can help it.

I will never convince everyone and I know this, some people are so cheap that if they can save $100 and take their chances with a repair, they will. Especially when they go to sell a vehicle. I believe I will always have a small customer base- the people who can clearly see the advantages of using a dual diameter stud over an insert. Just if that customer base is too small there is no point in continuing with production plans.

Speedygman
06-02-11, 07:58 PM
I am a very strong believer in the studs, only way to go and now have a second set waiting to do another motor. I am doing a project with 288 degree cams, Holley 9500 Dominator electronic fuel injection 100 cfm throttle body,intake and exhaust porting work, pushing 400 Horse Power, maybe Nitrous later for additional 100 Horse Power shot? Jake is the BEST period.

89falcon
06-02-11, 09:51 PM
^^^^ That's what no vehicle owner wants to go through.

Timeserts are only worth their weight in scrap metal. Any insert for that matter. I made an M11 insert with a 5/8x11 outer wall. Then I machined off the 5/8" threads and use it to show people how the best insert on the market, still have a very thin wall. The only good thing about timeserts is that the threads are synchronized- but still the threads are paper thin.

The success of timeserts are based on luck (rather, very accurate torque, very good block material, accurate drilling) and even if they work initially, the chance of refailure is high. Nobody wants to go through this repair twice if they can help it.

I will never convince everyone and I know this, some people are so cheap that if they can save $100 and take their chances with a repair, they will. Especially when they go to sell a vehicle. I believe I will always have a small customer base- the people who can clearly see the advantages of using a dual diameter stud over an insert. Just if that customer base is too small there is no point in continuing with production plans.

Jake,

Keep the plans rolling! the lack of almost any aftermarket stuff for the NS has been somewhat disappointing......heck, ARP doesn't even make a standard size stud specifically for the car....you have to use one designed for a VW...I still can't figure that out......

Might I make a suggestion? I know you put a LOT of effort into the design of the Studs for the NS.......but have you thought about expanding your market? There are a lot of timesert kits for NS engines out there, but there are also kits out there for Toyotas....which tells me that THEY have similar issues.......maybe you could use the same basic design and develop a kit for a couple other models.....ones that crazy 18 YO kids don't hesitate to build.....I'd hate to see your product go away.

97EldoCoupe
06-02-11, 10:29 PM
89- you are right on track. The Toyota 2.4 is an untapped market and I'm starting to get calls about those. I did the first install on a 2.4 at no charge just so I could get the measurements and specs- and that turned out beautifully.

ARP does not have a standard Northstar stud- but we will in a very short time. The M11x1.5 thread rolls are on order and I have 5 thread roll heads so one will be fitted with that set at all times. It will be a piece of cake to manufacture stock size studs for the Northstar. I still recommend going with the SureGrips no matter what. Also M10x1.5 thread rolls is next on the shopping list, to make a bottom end stud kit to take place of the main bolts.

This is the biggest step forward for my company ever- the in-house manufacturing operations. Why? The company that produced the custom machined bolts to hold down the alignment fixture plate, screwed up and those won't even thread into a newly tapped hole. I've been turning them down and running my thread rolls over them. (no flaws after we're done with them, whatsoever). The biggest mistake I made was having so much outsourced- and I did this so we could focus more on the vehicle repairs and just assemble the kits. Nothing beats in-house machining, changes can be made on the fly, custom length studs can be ordered and produced immediately, quality control can be very nicely implemented in the machine operations, and no wait times. No huge supplier bills at the end of the month.

Eventually CNC equipment will be needed but the turret lathe I have is a production machine- it's sole purpose was to make parts, quick. There is auto-this, auto that, auto feed even on the tail-stock. There are position stops for the tool posts, the turrets, everything except the chuck so accurate chucking is required. Laser guides are for that purpose.

I'm not stopping until orders are shipping SAME DAY and hopefully, within the USA. I wonder- the repair side of things- setting up shop in a nice central USA location for repairs and engine rebuilds, what the potential would be. No customs, no ship delays, that would all be taken care of. I want to continue helping Cadillac owners keep their Northstars on the road. Thoughts have gone through my mind to make one large drill/tap plate and simply rent that out to customers for drilling and tapping, but that creates a whole new set of issues.

stoveguyy
06-02-11, 11:29 PM
we can and have discussed caddy blocks forever it seems. once you remove the headbolts, the block threads are probably damaged. so you need to drill and tap larger threads. for timeserts, norms inserts or the suregrip studs. BUT, the VW studs would work in a NEW caddy block? virgin, unmolested factory threads?

89falcon
06-02-11, 11:47 PM
we can and have discussed caddy blocks forever it seems. once you remove the headbolts, the block threads are probably damaged. so you need to drill and tap larger threads. for timeserts, norms inserts or the suregrip studs. BUT, the VW studs would work in a NEW caddy block? virgin, unmolested factory threads?

The VW studs would work in a virgin block, timeserted block, or a norm's block....if Suregrips weren't available, I would use the ARP VW studs in a block with Norm's inserts.....I honestly think you're a lot less likely to damage the threads while torquing a nut on the top of a stud, than torquing a headbolt.

stoveguyy
06-03-11, 08:25 AM
but where do you find a new block? i see a comment that vw studs will not work in a caddy and that is not true. yes the thread diameter is the same on both ends. not dual diameter like the suregrip studs. but who would use timeserts and vw studs together. the arp studs are 250 or so. close to the suregrip studs in price. not counting the drill/tap/guide block.

w98seeng
06-03-11, 07:12 PM
I got a kit including 20 inserts and shipping from the U.S. to Canada for $306.

RippyPartsDept
06-04-11, 08:55 AM
let us know how the install goes

w98seeng
06-17-11, 08:05 AM
I'm just waiting for the drill kit to arrive and I still have to clean and tape the top of the block to prevent filings from going everywhere.

One quick question. The pulley on the camshaft for the water pump was a bitch to get off. What is the best way to get it back on? Will it go on with just a bolt?

Ian

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/w98seeng/2011-06-16122415.jpg

RippyPartsDept
06-17-11, 08:16 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/157493-instaling-water-pump-pulley.html#post1718206

vincentm
06-17-11, 08:17 AM
Are you doing the repair with the engine in the car?

-------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my Northstar powered phone

w98seeng
06-18-11, 04:04 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/157493-instaling-water-pump-pulley.html#post1718206

Many Thanks Rippy


Are you doing the repair with the engine in the car?


Yup

w98seeng
07-09-11, 10:02 AM
Any ideas on how to remove the dowels from the block? I got the TimeSert kit and I am about to do the drilling, but I think I have to remove the dowels first, preferably without damaging them.

Thanks,
Ian

Just had a thought. Can I use the dowels as a drilling guide so I don't have to remove them?

vincentm
07-09-11, 10:26 AM
The dowels have to come out, no exceptions as far as I know, I could be wrkng but don't think so.

maeng9981
07-10-11, 02:17 PM
Remove the dowel pins, legit vise grip and a threaded 1/2 bolt will do the job. Carefully soak the dowel pins with PB Blaster or WD40, insert the 1/2 bolt in the dowel and crush the dowel pins against the bolt. Start rotating the vise grip carefully not to damage the block.

Dowel pin rotating together? Keep rotating and pulling until it's off.
Dowel pin too hard to rotate? Lubricate the dowel pins again with penetrating oil mentioned above.
Vise grip rotates but dowel pin doesn't? Clamp with more force.

Use new dowel pins if your repair method requires it. (Stud kit doesn't require new dowel, but TimeSert does as far as I know)

For easier method you can weld a rod and use nuts and a pipe to remove. They are mentioned several times in another threads.

Speedygman
07-10-11, 06:34 PM
You can also use a 5/8 x 11 tap and thread the dowel then use a spacer over the dowel thread a 5/8 bolt with a nut screwed up all the way, then a flat washer on top of spacer and tighten down the nut and it will pull the dowel out. Worked for me.

w98seeng
07-10-11, 10:32 PM
I drilled right through the dowel and tapped and inserted the Timesert, no problem.

Ian

RippyPartsDept
07-11-11, 01:05 AM
dowel pins are cheap just use new ones

w98seeng
07-16-11, 05:57 AM
OK, sio the heads are back on (not torqued yet) and I looked at the fuel rail and noticed a couple of O-rings and the little plastic tips are missing. I looked everywhere with no luck.

It is possible to get these parts separately? I called the dealer and they want $74 for the o-rings.

Thanks,
Ian

97EldoCoupe
07-16-11, 08:53 AM
You sure they're not stuck in the intake? That has fooled me in the past- I'm lucky for having the parts collection that I do. One goes missing, grab another. $74 for the O-rings? Wow. $100 + shipping and I'll send you a new set of factory Bosch fuel injectors with the new O-rings on them :)

w98seeng
07-16-11, 05:38 PM
You sure they're not stuck in the intake?

That was the first place I looked. I found 2 o-rings, but the little plastic tips are gone. Are the little plastic bits important? I guess they are there to keep the o-rings in place, eh? Do I really need them? I have a collection of plumbing o-rings in little boxes in a case, all sorted by size and thickness. Can I use one of these if I can find the right size or will the fuel eat through it?

Anyone have a couple of these little bits to spare?

Thanks,
Ian

Submariner409
07-16-11, 07:42 PM
The "little plastic tips" are turbulence assistants - look very closely at the injector while it is correctly mounted in a manifold - there are 4 tiny fuel ports, two aligned with each intake valve. The plastic tips are one more step to insure equal fuel distribution.

Junkyard pullouts for dirt cheap, or take Jake up on his offer after you do some research on what a new (not rebuilt) set costs..................Over $300 for AC Delco units, plus shipping...................(Jake, you could probably sell new ACD units for $30 apiece and still beat anyone in the U.S.)

97EldoCoupe
07-16-11, 08:41 PM
Thanks Jim - figured I'd see if I could help Ian out a bit. I should charge more than $100 per set though that's for sure.

w98seeng
07-18-11, 07:04 AM
figured I'd see if I could help Ian out a bit.

And it is much appreciated. I thought I would try to find the little pieces I need first.

Ian

w98seeng
07-18-11, 09:32 AM
I know, I know, I shouldn't, but I am

Also, Don't do as I do

I am reusing the old head bolts (remember the guy I am doing the car for is cheap and is reselling the car?).

Anyway, when reusing the old head bolts, do I torque them as new ones, or do I torque them less since they are are partially stretched already? Also, do I need thread locker or any sealant on the threads?

I have read different things regarding this on the net and the information from All-Data does not really say anything about thread locker or sealant.

Thanks,
Ian

89falcon
07-18-11, 10:35 AM
I know, I know, I shouldn't, but I am

Also, Don't do as I do

I am reusing the old head bolts (remember the guy I am doing the car for is cheap and is reselling the car?).

Anyway, when reusing the old head bolts, do I torque them as new ones, or do I torque them less since they are are partially stretched already? Also, do I need thread locker or any sealant on the threads?

I have read different things regarding this on the net and the information from All-Data does not really say anything about thread locker or sealant.

Thanks,
Ian

If you are reusing the headbolts, DO NOT use threadlocker!!!! threadlocker will make disassembly much more difficult for you when the car is returned a week after it is sold with 2 bad headgaskets......

Being "cheap" is one thing......but reusing the headbolts is about on par as some of the old "tricks" like putting sawdust in the tranny. Personally, I think it's FRAUD....he's selling a car with a KNOWN defect that WILL fail soon after the sale. Is this clown a member of the BBB?

w98seeng
07-18-11, 10:50 AM
If the car comes back a week later my friend will be out of pocket the money to fix it right or to refund the person their money and get a new motor for the car as I will not repair it a second time.

There are a lot of people out there who have reused head bolts, for this job I am one of them. I just wanted to know if there is a sealant or thread locker to be used and if the torque settings should be followed as if new bolts were used.

I know this is not the way to fix a problem, I have admitted it before and I don't need a lecture about the morality or quality of the repair as I am just following the owners wishes. I convinced him to do the front head as he was only going to do the rear that went bad.

If you don't want to answer these questions, then just say so and I will not post anymore.

89falcon
07-18-11, 11:18 AM
If the car comes back a week later my friend will be out of pocket the money to fix it right or to refund the person their money and get a new motor for the car as I will not repair it a second time.

actually, your friend will probably sue you for doing a bad repair job....and don't think he won't.....if he's the type that will reuse the headbolts to save $50.....his "moral compass" is pretty cheap to buy out.


There are a lot of people out there who have reused head bolts, for this job I am one of them. I just wanted to know if there is a sealant or thread locker to be used and if the torque settings should be followed as if new bolts were used.

actually, I'm not aware of a lot of people reusing them in the N*. I reused some on a 4G63 motor in a car (eclipse) I picked up real cheap with a bad head (broken timing belt). It was the first engine I'd built with the TTY bolts..........HUGE mistake. The engine itself has a nice iron block, so I didn't blow the headgasket, but it leaked oil at the headgasket like I have never seen......and when I figured out the problem, I had the head off redoing the job within a week.


I know this is not the way to fix a problem, I have admitted it before and I don't need a lecture about the morality or quality of the repair as I am just following the owners wishes. I convinced him to do the front head as he was only going to do the rear that went bad.

actually, it appears you DO need the lecture......if he needed a gun to rob the local 7-11, would you loan him yours? After all, YOU'RE no the one doing it.....
IMO, replacing the other gasket was probably a mistake if you weren't going to do it right.....you will NOT get the same clamping force out of the bolts on the second use. If your friend is that insistent on saving the $50 it takes to replace the bolts with factory ones, then you should take it out of the amount he's paying you. Call me crazy, but I'd rather do a job RIGHT for free, than get paid to do it WRONG.


If you don't want to answer these questions, then just say so and I will not post anymore.

I am answering the question.......simply put, THERE IS NO PROCEDURE for reusing the bolts. How much did the original ones stretch? How do you account for some stretching more than others?

83CADMAN
07-18-11, 12:50 PM
Fraud
If your name was on the work rather than your dealer friends, would you still reuse the H/B's?
Let this be a lesson for all of you looking to buy a used N* off the bargan lots with the claim of HG repair. Get the name of the mechainic behind the work and demand to see all reciepts and if you smell a rat, report them.

w98seeng
07-19-11, 09:45 AM
Well, thanks anyway for those who tried to help. I will try somewhere else to get my answers.

Ian

RippyPartsDept
07-19-11, 11:39 AM
Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean you didn't get answers. DO NOT REUSE THE HEADBOLTS

Period.

End of discussion

There is no information out there regarding reusing the bolts because you're not supposed to reuse the bolts.

I'm sorry but that's just the reality of the situation.

maeng9981
07-20-11, 01:53 AM
You can put your old head bolts, of course you can, into your trash can.

Honestly, I can't see that there are frauds like this behind the used car market. Selling broken cars with known problems that will return? Good luck.

97EldoCoupe
07-20-11, 11:01 PM
In Ian's defense I know what it's like to work for penny-pinching customers. I get them now and again. But it usually winds up with a phone call "either you're going to allow me to do the job correctly or you can take it somewhere else".

And why is this?

Recently did an engine job for a customer. Came with two inoperable valves. Roller Finger Followers had slipped out and two intake valves no longer made their usual motions. So it was shaking like a leaf, smoking like there was no tomorrow (burning oil and coolant both), and rattling quite nicely from under the hood. So dang cheap, he brought me the parts from his sources he wanted installed. Gave him a max quote of $4k if it required a full overhaul. Too much money. What finally happened? I lost money on that job. Too much labor that I did not get paid for, and the sound of those lash adjusters and the two RFF's that were out of position sent a signal to me "replace all of them". Customer was too cheap and I'm not giving my new heads away for free. I can't. I replaced the two defective RFF's, ground the valve seats, honed the block, cleaned the pistons and rings, re-used the rings (had no choice), and guess what- ran like a clock but still had valvetrain noise when I was done with the car.

Owner came to pick it up, his friend had asked about the noise and said "too bad you didn't fix that while you were in there"... Oh boy what do you say to that- so now, for the first time ever, I sent a car back home with the customer that I was not proud of- I simply told his friend "if your friend here wasn't on such a tight budget, it would have been done".

Had I known all of this ahead of time I would have turned that job down and let someone else take care of it.

Ian, in your defense, I know where you're coming from. But there is no good procedure to re-use head bolts. I'll see if I can help you a bit- the factory head bolts have thread sealant already applied on them. This is going to affect torque readings. So with liquid thread sealant, you should acheive the same clamping pressure with a touch less torque. Without proper PSI/KSI clamp load tests there's no telling how much. You'll have to take a wild guess. It may be a disaster waiting to happen but if the car should fail again, and if you can get in contact with the new owner, you can explain your situation to him and possibly do the repair over again, for more money, using the correct parts later. I would just really hate to be that guy buying the car. If NOBODY did a half-assed repair (again Ian, not blaming you for the customer's cheapness) then it simply would NOT get done and nobody would get ripped off.

I would like to offer my .02 and say, if you can do this repair half-assed at the request of a customer, you can do it under your own control and do an excellent job of it- find a car or two locally for sale with bad HG's, do the correct repair, and advertise the hell out of it- that your repair is done right and that the customer can trust the engine. I'll help you out if I can with studs, there's a history of proven success behind my studs and you can sell the car in confidence. No offense but when I bought my 97 Eldo, I was lied to and sort of ripped off, (actually I am lucky I bought that car) and if I can prevent that from ever happening to any of my customers I will do so.

97EldoCoupe
07-20-11, 11:11 PM
I wish you success with your repair job, as I am sure we all do, but there's no getting around the fact that there's only one right way to go. Take a hit on your bottom line and install new head bolts anyway, or hold your customer upside down and shake him until $50 falls out of his pockets.

Best of luck Ian, just make sure you get paid before you hand those keys over. Don't trust the un-trustables (crooked car dealers/peddlers).

tateos
07-20-11, 11:54 PM
I think I remember reading that the issue with re-using the head bolts is not that they are TTY, and once installed, are permanently stretched - they are not, and they are not. I think the problem, with Jake alluded to, was that the thread sealant, pre-applied to the bolts, sets up and is no longer effective if the engine has been run and the bolts are later removed.

97EldoCoupe
07-21-11, 12:23 AM
The real problem with the bolts, just like the main bolts, are inferior in quality, also ong and springy with really fine threads. The main bolts on these engines are junk. I'm sorry but if they snap off trying to remove them from aluminum threads, that's pathetic (no offense to GM, my favorite automaker)

vincentm
07-21-11, 11:46 AM
I think I remember reading that the issue with re-using the head bolts is not that they are TTY, and once installed, are permanently stretched - they are not, and they are not. I think the problem, with Jake alluded to, was that the thread sealant, pre-applied to the bolts, sets up and is no longer effective if the engine has been run and the bolts are later removed.


Dude you need to get another Caddy

/thread hi-jack

tateos
07-21-11, 01:17 PM
LOL - probably true, but my next car will be something that's excellent on gas - maybe a Volt or a Sonic or a Cruze - will be looking for a third car in the Fall. I admit it is kind of weird not to be driving one - my first was in 1994, so what is that - 17 straight years of Caddy driving? I've been driving my 2005 Lincoln LS lately - nice car, but not on par with a Cadillac - seems more like a really nice Ford to me.


Dude you need to get another Caddy

/thread hi-jack

csts75
08-29-11, 01:09 AM
Does anything have to be done to the heads before reinstalling them? Check for cracks etc...? I can still drive my car for about 20 miles before it starts to heat up which allows me to get to work. Beyond that, it starts to heat up and i have to pull over to let it cool down and add more water. Have have not yet decided if im going with Time serts or studs for my 1999 Seville STS.
Thanks

vincentm
08-29-11, 10:48 AM
^Go with Studs. Avoid driving the vehicle as much as possible until it is properly repaired.

jaggos200
10-04-11, 11:03 AM
Why would you time serts a engine??? The kit is 300 to 500 dollars. and the crap that come with the kit is a joke.
buy the bit at home depo, order the taper bit it self on line the size you need. the buy Studs with a coarse threads and in stall.
You will spend less or at most the same for it all and last for ever.Well intill you blow the darn thing up.

RippyPartsDept
10-04-11, 12:15 PM
obvious troll is obvious ??

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Obvious+troll+is+obvious+Or+retarded+_22320d3ac91d 54ed71602dea5dad00ae.jpg

vincentm
10-04-11, 12:34 PM
obvious troll is obvious ??

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Obvious+troll+is+obvious+Or+retarded+_22320d3ac91d 54ed71602dea5dad00ae.jpg

:yeah:

Submariner409
10-04-11, 01:23 PM
...............and, to make matters worse, he doesn't have a clue as to what he's posting about !

jaggos200
10-06-11, 10:31 AM
1998 Deville with 180000 miles still looks good. But I do have overheating problems. I have replace hose thermostat, rad, flush all of it twice and put in 50/50 and drop in the tabs.Fans work just fine. did do a compression test twice on all of them. A little confuse on it.
cly 1- 155 to 160 /cly 2- 182/ cly 3 180/ 4- 183/ 5-185/ 6- 219/7- 185-/8- 219. I took all the plugs out at one time. was this the wrong???
From what I can tell when it dose over heat no water is lost in'till it gets up to 242%.it is self purging.After doing the the test for exhaust
gas twice it said normal to me . It was a light blue and went to a clear color.
If I replace the heads gasket could I just re-tap to a 12mm coarse tread and buy studs in stead of bolts? jaggos200@yahoo.com

maeng9981
10-06-11, 03:13 PM
It was a light blue and went to a clear color

That's nowhere near from normal. Your test fluid lost its color so it's just making it harder to tell. You need a strong blue color fluid to see it to turn yellow.

There is already a stud kit out there you can buy, http://www.northstarperformance.com/. Gives you less headache and you don't have to engineer the studs.