: Ha ha!



Sinister Angel
10-11-04, 06:01 PM
http://www.geocities.com/ita31us/greencard.gif

The day has come!
I got a nice line on a Glock 23 that I'm gonna pick up. 400 rounds through it with everything else included for $440.

Price I've seen in town is $520. Probably gonna pick it up Wednesday or Saturday.

Rolex
10-11-04, 06:05 PM
Strong choice. I carry the model 22. Enjoy (responsibly)! :thumbsup:

Sinister Angel
10-11-04, 06:17 PM
Strong choice. I carry the model 22. Enjoy (responsibly)! :thumbsup:

I shot the 23 and fell in love with the balance. One of the reasons I went with the compact is that when I turn 21 I'm looking to possibly carry. I don't think I'm big enough to pack a fullsize for that purpose. Thats the nice thing about the 23 - big enough to shoot at the range, and small enough to conceal.

RBraczyk
10-11-04, 07:13 PM
please, do me a favor and go out and kill someone, because you need to carry a pistol right?

majax
10-11-04, 07:54 PM
I have only touched a gun once in my life :rolleyes2

tru504187211
10-11-04, 08:05 PM
Uh oh...Geocities ran out of bandwidth for you! :D


please, do me a favor and go out and kill someone, because you need to carry a pistol right?

Get ready for a move to the Current Issues section...

Sinister Angel
10-11-04, 08:12 PM
please, do me a favor and go out and kill someone, because you need to carry a pistol right?


That's right, you are a chunky little **** that looks like Michael Moore, aren't you? :helpless:

Vesicant
10-11-04, 08:54 PM
Yay Glock's! Gotta love em!

Model 23 especially... :2thumbs:

RBraczyk
10-11-04, 09:30 PM
That's right, you are a chunky little **** that looks like Michael Moore, aren't you? :helpless:

No my motive in life is to be able to talk my way out of a problem before i blow its fu*king head off. Someone starts coming towards you in the middle of the night. You kill him. Turns out he didn't know the area and was going to ask for directions. You go to prison for life. Sounds like a plan to me. :thumbsup:

Sinister Angel
10-11-04, 09:32 PM
No my motive in life is to be able to talk my way out of a problem before i blow its fu*king head off. Someone starts coming towards you in the middle of the night. You kill him. Turns out he didn't know the area and was going to ask for directions. You go to prison for life. Sounds like a plan to me. :thumbsup:

Hey, just because you have problems with situational analysis doesn't mean I do as well. Sorry kid, I think you missed the starting gun..

Rolex
10-12-04, 06:32 PM
Hey, just because you have problems with situational analysis doesn't mean I do as well. Sorry kid, I think you missed the starting gun..

RB just lives in a world where nobody means anyone else any harm. There's no need for protection for yourself or your family...as everyone who approaches you is only asking directions. Life is all gum drops and lollipops....right? :cookoo: :helpless:

ben72227
10-12-04, 06:50 PM
Yeah, me and Rolex especially need protection, with Governor Huckabee releasing all of the "born again" murderers from Cummins prison... :cookoo: As soon as I'm old enough, Im gonna go out and get a Glock 19/23 or now since the Clinton weapons ban has expired, i might go out and get me one of the orginal Tec-9's. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't conceal my weapon, (unless i had a license of course :lildevil: )but i like guns mainly for sports/target shooting.

RBraczyk
10-12-04, 06:52 PM
Maybe you dont know this buy we are gun owners. Its just that I think concealed is stupid.

Rolex
10-12-04, 07:20 PM
Maybe you dont know this buy we are gun owners. Its just that I think concealed is stupid.

In 2000 the average national violent crime rate per 100,000 people was 506.1. You live in NH, where the violent crime rate in 2000 was 165.0 per 100,000 people (WELL below the national average...actually in 2003 NH is listed #46 out of 50 on the most dangerous state list). You are sheltered!! Concealed carry in NH would be pointless....but never stupid.

Now try and imagine living in a city (Little Rock-North LR, Arkansas...btw AR was #23 out of 50 on the aforementioned list) with 600,000 people, and the violent crime rate is 571.6 per 100,000 people, or about 4 times the VIOLENT crime then where you live (well ABOVE the national average). Or even better Pine Bluff, Arkansas (population 45,000 and 30 short minutes south of Little Rock) whose violent crime rate in 2000 was 1443.6 per 100,000 (#1 in the whole nation). I invite you to check the Arkansas Democrat Gazette headlines on any given day to validate my point.

Still think concealed carry is stupid? I think your argument comes from ignorance.

Sinister Angel
10-12-04, 07:51 PM
Yeah, me and Rolex especially need protection, with Governor Huckabee releasing all of the "born again" murderers from Cummins prison... :cookoo: As soon as I'm old enough, Im gonna go out and get a Glock 19/23 or now since the Clinton weapons ban has expired, i might go out and get me one of the orginal Tec-9's. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't conceal my weapon, (unless i had a license of course :lildevil: )but i like guns mainly for sports/target shooting.

I haven't shot a 19, but I've shot the 23 (and, well, that's what I'm picking up tomorrow if I haven't mentioned it), and I love it. Glocks, despite looking like plastic, shoot very well and are balanced in my opinion.

barge master
10-12-04, 10:00 PM
I've never had any inclination to own a gun, mostly because I thought I'd be too hasty to want to use it, but these days it is starting to seem like a good idea. I've always wanted a big ass shotgun, the pump kind with a pistol grip. I'm not into the idea of hunting or anything but if anyone treads in my sacred garden, I'd like to make sure they are halted in their tracks.

BUILDINGCTSAMG
10-12-04, 10:29 PM
I agree for home protection I feel you cant go wrong with a shotgun, but hey if you want a pistol go for it....I just wish things like fingerprint resistant materials and weapons that try to kill as many people as possible were outlawed....I mean other than for fun can anyone explain why they would need a tek-9?

Sinister Angel
10-12-04, 10:57 PM
I mean other than for fun can anyone explain why they would need a tek-9?
Because it's your 2nd Amendment right to own one, and no reason is needed to be given?

Elvis
10-12-04, 11:28 PM
You're just as dead with a tek-9 as you are with a .22 between the eyes. If you outlaw one, you have to outlaw them all. If somebody wants you dead, they can choose from hundreds of ways to perform the task.

Hey, I just figured something out--we could just outlaw MURDER. That's a whole lot simpler than outlawing tools.

BUILDINGCTSAMG
10-13-04, 12:12 AM
I dont interpret the 2nd amendment to refer to a right for any time of weapon...surely we would say owning your own nuclear weapon should be illegal...a tek-9 is made for assaulting a large group of people, not protecting your home...unless your protecting them from the turkish army....Why do we draw the line so randomly? Own a .22 for all I care own 22 of them, I am not as afraid from being hit by a stray shot from one of them than from a tek-9.

Sinister Angel
10-13-04, 08:54 AM
I dont interpret the 2nd amendment to refer to a right for any time of weapon...surely we would say owning your own nuclear weapon should be illegal...a tek-9 is made for assaulting a large group of people, not protecting your home...unless your protecting them from the turkish army....Why do we draw the line so randomly? Own a .22 for all I care own 22 of them, I am not as afraid from being hit by a stray shot from one of them than from a tek-9.

Uhmm, are you saying the Tec-9 is a machine pistol? If you are, you are horribly mistaken. http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/class3_10.htm
Even on the topic of stray rounds, you don't need a machine anything to have stray rounds. Shit, you can have a round ricochette from someone using a revolver, or they might have really sloppy gun discipline. Who knows, but like Elvis said, why ban a tool. All it does is sit around lifeless. Rather, ban the action of a person using that tool to do harm. After all, I can slash your tires or your throat with a knife, but for some reason I don't see people clammoring to ban knives. I'm confused...

barge master
10-13-04, 09:23 AM
The difference being that it takes some fair degree of sack to get right up to someone with a knife and stick them with it. It's a lot easier to pull out a piece and pop someone from a distance, and walk/drive away.
From what I understand, a lot of street crime is commited with stolen guns. People who own legal firearms need to safeguard them against theft or they only increase the danger that concerned them in the first place.
To me it's a tough call, I always liked those Tommy guns like the gangsters had in the 30's and would jump at the chance to own one. The problem is that if they sell one to me to play Al Capone in a gravel pit, they are gonna end up selling one to some low life in the hood to shoot at cops with.
They ought to make the mere possesion of an illegal gun a major offense and make gun related crimes carry life altering sentences. Outlawing the guns themselves is not going to stop anything. You can make a zip gun in your basement, and people who want to use guns in crimes will likely do exactly that if necessary.

Sinister Angel
10-13-04, 11:12 AM
They ought to make the mere possesion of an illegal gun a major offense and make gun related crimes carry life altering sentences. Outlawing the guns themselves is not going to stop anything. You can make a zip gun in your basement, and people who want to use guns in crimes will likely do exactly that if necessary.

Exactly, so why do you mention "illegal guns"? You kinda contradicted yourself there.

barge master
10-13-04, 12:19 PM
I mean a stolen gun or one that has had alterations done, i.e. serial number removal to make it untraceable. Something obviously done with criminal intentions.

Sinister Angel
10-13-04, 12:36 PM
I mean a stolen gun or one that has had alterations done, i.e. serial number removal to make it untraceable. Something obviously done with criminal intentions.

Theft is illegal in the first place. If I want to file off my serial number, who cares? I don't want my gun traced, and I'm not a criminal in the sense I go around violating peoples rights.

RBraczyk
10-13-04, 04:00 PM
Why do you need to file off your serial numbers? You kill someone already?

Rolex
10-13-04, 05:22 PM
I dont interpret the 2nd amendment to refer to a right for any time of weapon...surely we would say owning your own nuclear weapon should be illegal...a tek-9 is made for assaulting a large group of people, not protecting your home...unless your protecting them from the turkish army....Why do we draw the line so randomly? Own a .22 for all I care own 22 of them, I am not as afraid from being hit by a stray shot from one of them than from a tek-9.

Second Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The second amendment is all about maintaining the balance of power between the people and their government my friend. The government is for the people and by the people.....it's not supposed to maintain absolute control over the people. That's what the second amendment is all about.

Surely we are all bright enough to draw a distinction between owning a nuclear warhead vs owning a tec-9 firearm. You could most certainly defend your home with a tec-9, but you could hardly do that with a warhead. What about the tec-9 is made for "assulting" large groups of people? The Intratec-9 was banned mainly because of its militaristic appearance. It's not any more dangerous a gun then any other 9mm semi-automatic pistol. It can accept 50 round magazines, but so can a Glock for that matter. I don't understand why one is more dangerous then the other.

Personally I would fear the well aimed shot fired from a deer rifle with a telescopic sight, before the stray uneducated shot from some random person with a 9mm handgun. Though both aren't something to scoff at IMO.


They ought to make the mere possesion of an illegal gun a major offense and make gun related crimes carry life altering sentences. Outlawing the guns themselves is not going to stop anything. You can make a zip gun in your basement, and people who want to use guns in crimes will likely do exactly that if necessary.

If by this you mean the courts should enforce tougher sentences on aggravated crimes/crimes committed with a firearm, I couldn't agree with you more. You might think twice about using a gun in a crime if the court could order your hand cut off at the wrist for doing so. Sounds drastic but its true.

Sinister Angel
10-14-04, 02:26 AM
She's mine now. S/N FRZ286 :D

Pictures soon.

Ralph
10-14-04, 02:37 AM
She's mine now. S/N FRZ286 :D

Pictures soon.

I miss my Ruger P-85!! :crying: My next pistol will be a 686 with a 6 in. barrel. The firearm never hurt me but the 15lb. steel plate target did when it fell on my head while picking up the others!! Perhaps we should ban steel plate targets?

SA, I hope no one wants to steal your pistol because now they know where to get it! ;)

davesdeville
10-14-04, 04:36 AM
I don't like that people have guns. I'd like to know that the person who I'm gonna fight in a parking lot doesn't have a shotgun in the trunk of his car. But since I don't know whether he does or not, I'm going to pick up a cheap 12 gauge as soon as I'm 18.

barge master
10-14-04, 07:11 AM
Theft is illegal in the first place. If I want to file off my serial number, who cares? I don't want my gun traced, and I'm not a criminal in the sense I go around violating peoples rights.
I know what you're saying dude, belieive me. Trouble is, not everyone behaves like that. NOBODY hates rules more than me. I don't want to get a building permit to modify my own property, I want to throw a plate on any car I want to drive. My justification being that I'm no fool and nothing is going to happen. This may be true, at least most of the time, but if that's the way everyone did it there would be anarchy. :sneaky:

T_Dogg8
10-14-04, 09:09 AM
I don't like that people have guns. I'd like to know that the person who I'm gonna fight in a parking lot doesn't have a shotgun in the trunk of his car. But since I don't know whether he does or not, I'm going to pick up a cheap 12 gauge as soon as I'm 18.
why are you fighting guys in the parking lot?? if you can't just walk away, then you need to re-evaluate yourself. if you're not man enough to realize that some ass isn't worth fighting, then that's your problem.

Rolex
10-14-04, 06:21 PM
why are you fighting guys in the parking lot?? if you can't just walk away, then you need to re-evaluate yourself. if you're not man enough to realize that some ass isn't worth fighting, then that's your problem.

:yeah:

Ralph
10-14-04, 06:27 PM
Correct. If you go looking for trouble, it will find you. If I was ever fortunate enough to be able to legally carry a firearm it would be for self-defensiveness purposes ONLY! Who the hell wants a lawsuit, or time in court anyway?

Up here it is legal to use force but even if you are in the "right" you will spend some time in jail!

Elvis
10-14-04, 07:26 PM
Rule #1 about packing: Don't show it unless you're going to use it. In other words, never put it away cold.

Rolex
10-14-04, 09:02 PM
Rule #1 about packing: Don't show it unless you're going to use it. In other words, never put it away cold.

This comes from the man who lives in the #6 most dangerous city in the US. (In part because my inlaws live there!) :rolleyes:

davesdeville
10-14-04, 11:32 PM
why are you fighting guys in the parking lot?? if you can't just walk away, then you need to re-evaluate yourself. if you're not man enough to realize that some ass isn't worth fighting, then that's your problem.

I don't go looking for fights. I do speak my mind and it can get me in trouble, but that's just who I am. I don't know what part of PA is a utopia where everyone's nice, maybe you can enlighten me so I can move there.

I was giving that as an example. I've only had 2 opportunities to fight in a parking lot. Once I was walking to my car and was confronted with a blow to my kidney by a guy who I spilled my coke on earlier. I did fight him though, I'm not going to take physical abuse without fighting back. Are you telling me you'd take it if you're getting hit? Last time was just last Sunday when I was with 4 friends and one of my friends was joking around and accidently pissed off 6 or 7 other guys. I think they'd been drinking because they threw beer cans at my friends car. We left, but if there was a brawl, I'm not gonna walk away and leave my friends one man short. Are you telling me that you'd have your friends get their asses kicked rather than fight along side them?

Dead Sled
10-15-04, 12:00 AM
well filing off serial numbers possessing a stolen firearm using a firearm in a crime illegal transfer of a firearm and on and on all the above metioned are FELONIES the are illegal its just liberals that get them peabargened away

Vesicant
10-15-04, 12:03 AM
They can get the serial number anyways, with the advances in modern science its useless. Seen it.

Dead Sled
10-15-04, 12:56 AM
http://www.birdman.org/images/m82pistbig.jpg

oh and by the way posting a serial number on the net is a bad thing especialy a gun.

Sinister Angel
10-15-04, 01:43 AM
Here they are!
http://www.pbase.com/spirit03/glock_23

http://image.pbase.com/u39/spirit03/large/35071491.glock005.jpg

http://image.pbase.com/u39/spirit03/large/35071490.glock004.jpg
180 Gr. Speer Gold Dot

But yeah, that's me and my first gun :D

T_Dogg8
10-15-04, 08:40 AM
http://www.birdman.org/images/m82pistbig.jpg

oh and by the way posting a serial number on the net is a bad thing especialy a gun.
i was thinking that too.

T_Dogg8
10-15-04, 08:46 AM
I don't go looking for fights. I do speak my mind and it can get me in trouble, but that's just who I am. I don't know what part of PA is a utopia where everyone's nice, maybe you can enlighten me so I can move there.

I was giving that as an example. I've only had 2 opportunities to fight in a parking lot. Once I was walking to my car and was confronted with a blow to my kidney by a guy who I spilled my coke on earlier. I did fight him though, I'm not going to take physical abuse without fighting back. Are you telling me you'd take it if you're getting hit? Last time was just last Sunday when I was with 4 friends and one of my friends was joking around and accidently pissed off 6 or 7 other guys. I think they'd been drinking because they threw beer cans at my friends car. We left, but if there was a brawl, I'm not gonna walk away and leave my friends one man short. Are you telling me that you'd have your friends get their asses kicked rather than fight along side them?
i don't live in a 'utopia.' heck, i wouldn't even walk through our downtown at night without a gun. but guess what, i don't walk down there because of that. if i got sucker punched, no i wouldn't walk away, but i've made it so far without needing to go to that. usually if you get sucker punched, you kind of figure it's going to happen. you spilled coke on the guy and then probably 'spoke your mind'. and saying 'that's who i am' isn't an excuse, it's proof of immaturity. someday you'll grow up and realize how ridiculous that sounds. would i walk away from my friends?? no. would i 'joke' with a group of guys to the point they get pissed and want to fight?? no. if one of my friends is dumb enough to do it, then he can defend himself. i would try to 'keep the peace' as i've done before. but if that didn't work, then i'm not going to jail for fighting because so idiot couldn't keep from making fun of someone. if you don't want problems, then shut your mouth when you should and don't hang out with people who start trouble. it's very simple and when you grow up and live in the real world, you'll realize that. things change when you become 18 and start having to go to jail for stuff like that. and then not having it come off your record which will severely limit what jobs you can get.

Sinister Angel
10-15-04, 11:47 AM
I don't like that people have guns. I'd like to know that the person who I'm gonna fight in a parking lot doesn't have a shotgun in the trunk of his car. But since I don't know whether he does or not, I'm going to pick up a cheap 12 gauge as soon as I'm 18.


So wait, you don't like the fact that if you go and fight some one, they just might get a bit pissed off at the fact YOU are attacking them, and just be like "**** this, you're a problem to society *gat*" Dude, give me a break. I don't even think they'd waste the ammo on you, they'd probably just pistol whip your bitch ass.

If you did decided to run to your car and grab a shotty just because you are pissed at me, at that point, I will give you a .40SW labotomy, period, end. You complain about people being able to own firearms, yet you say that you are gonna get a pump shotty and your not even 10% as mature? Get a life kid and go back to playing video games.

davesdeville
10-15-04, 07:23 PM
...usually if you get sucker punched, you kind of figure it's going to happen. you spilled coke on the guy and then probably 'spoke your mind'...

would i 'joke' with a group of guys to the point they get pissed and want to fight?? no. if one of my friends is dumb enough to do it, then he can defend himself. i would try to 'keep the peace' as i've done before...

Let me explain to you what exactly happened. I was walking to my table with a coke on my tray, I wasn't paying attention and it spilled, hitting the floor, and getting some on this guy. I told him I was sorry and I'd get him some napkins or something, but he told me to f*** off. I told him I wasn't going to get him any napkins because of that and went back to my table. Then later on I got punched in the kidney. What part of that is me picking a fight with someone?

The other incident was the 5 of my group were in a parking lot, the others were in 3 cars near us. We thought the others were going to fight each other, they were trying to look tough and yelling "what!" at each other. So Timmy said "what" to me, joking around. They heard, and came over and wanted us to fight them there. We walked towards our cars, not going to fight 6-7 guys for no reason. I told them we were joking between ourselves, that we didn't have any problem with them. Two of them ran to one of their cars, got some beer and pitched it at my friends car. What part of that is me picking a fight with someone? If I left Timmy to fight 6 guys alone, he could've been seriously injured or died, and it would be on my head.



So wait, you don't like the fact that if you go and fight some one, they just might get a bit pissed off at the fact YOU are attacking them, and just be like "**** this, you're a problem to society *gat*" Dude, give me a break. I don't even think they'd waste the ammo on you, they'd probably just pistol whip your bitch ass.

If you did decided to run to your car and grab a shotty just because you are pissed at me, at that point, I will give you a .40SW labotomy, period, end. You complain about people being able to own firearms, yet you say that you are gonna get a pump shotty and your not even 10% as mature? Get a life kid and go back to playing video games.

It's people like you who start shit, not people like me. Read the top of this post again, does it sound like I'm attacking people? I don't know what your problem with me is, but get over it. Calling ME immature in that post is rediculous, give me a break.

Ralph
10-15-04, 07:34 PM
You didn't do anything wrong Dave, from what I can tell. It seems like those dumbasses are the ones looking for trouble and the coke incident was an accident. Some people aretoo proud to accept anapology if their friends are near because they have a "tough image" and want to uphold it.

Now, SA, what's wrong with a nice Yankee firearm!? Ruger makes a polymer gun in 9 or .45? How much more would have a polymer Sig have been. I just don't trust polymer guns for some reason, they seem like a toy to me and I prefer American steel. The RCMP experimented with the Glock some ten years ago and they failed the tests due to warping. Perhaps they are better now and I haven't followed their technology for a few years now.

barge master
10-15-04, 09:22 PM
Dave, keep your pride in your pocket. You go shooting at people over some pissing contest in a parking lot, your life is gonna change. That stuff is reserved for when there is no alternative,and even then,it's gonna be real uncomfortable till it all gets sorted out.

Ralph
10-15-04, 09:51 PM
Dave, keep your pride in your pocket. You go shooting at people over some pissing contest in a parking lot, your life is gonna change. That stuff is reserved for when there is no alternative,and even then,it's gonna be real uncomfortable till it all gets sorted out.

Absolutely correct! I think Dave might have just been venting, flirting with the idea of being able to use force if met with force, etc. Fear plays a huge role in a situation like this, but it is better to avoid then confront and no one winning.

Is all this what Michael Moore refers to as "American Gun Culture?" :D

Sinister Angel
10-15-04, 11:57 PM
You didn't do anything wrong Dave, from what I can tell. It seems like those dumbasses are the ones looking for trouble and the coke incident was an accident. Some people aretoo proud to accept anapology if their friends are near because they have a "tough image" and want to uphold it.

Now, SA, what's wrong with a nice Yankee firearm!? Ruger makes a polymer gun in 9 or .45? How much more would have a polymer Sig have been. I just don't trust polymer guns for some reason, they seem like a toy to me and I prefer American steel. The RCMP experimented with the Glock some ten years ago and they failed the tests due to warping. Perhaps they are better now and I haven't followed their technology for a few years now.

Glocks really has their shit all sorts of reliable. I've heard nothing but good things about the quality. A sig would have cost me about 1.5 times more than I paid for the Glock. For being plastic, the glock feels pretty solid to me. I finally got out and shot her tonight, and I love it! It's gonna take a while for me to get used to her and get her perfect, but she isn't too bad. Recoil is not an issue! Then of course cleaning was a bloody easy job. The thing I've heard about cops and glocks is them not being safe due to the fact the safety is on the trigger. Well, my response to this is don't draw with your god damn finger on the trigger :banghead: I wouldn't carry a gun and have it safed in the common sense of the word. Not saying thats what RCMP was doing, it's just what I've heard from other places. I think Detroit had that problem where they stopped using glocks "because they aren't safe" or some shit. But right now the G23 is a perfect pistol for me: She's balanced, recoil isn't an issue, and she just all around feels and shoots good. I also picked up a 13 round today as well :D

Ralph
10-16-04, 05:11 AM
Glocks really has their shit all sorts of reliable. I've heard nothing but good things about the quality. A sig would have cost me about 1.5 times more than I paid for the Glock. For being plastic, the glock feels pretty solid to me. I finally got out and shot her tonight, and I love it! It's gonna take a while for me to get used to her and get her perfect, but she isn't too bad. Recoil is not an issue! Then of course cleaning was a bloody easy job. The thing I've heard about cops and glocks is them not being safe due to the fact the safety is on the trigger. Well, my response to this is don't draw with your god damn finger on the trigger :banghead: I wouldn't carry a gun and have it safed in the common sense of the word. Not saying thats what RCMP was doing, it's just what I've heard from other places. I think Detroit had that problem where they stopped using glocks "because they aren't safe" or some shit. But right now the G23 is a perfect pistol for me: She's balanced, recoil isn't an issue, and she just all around feels and shoots good. I also picked up a 13 round today as well :D

Sigs are nice but so damn expensive! Did you give any thought to the .357 Sig chambered Glocks? It's amazing that is surpasses the .357 magnum in power and penetration from what I remember reading.

I remember hearing about AD's with the Glocks, and just like a double action revolver, they should be trained to draw with finger off the trigger. Training and respect for the tool makes for better safety than the safety devices IMO. I recall reading about many officers in WW2 having AD's with their 1911 Colts and there are a host of safeties on that model including grip and thumb safeties! The grip safeties were incorporated because supposedly calvary soldiers were accidentally shooting their horses on the draw! It's all in the training and with as much wonderful freedom that you have comes and even greater responsibility to be safe!

When I was training as an armed guard after the military, we had an American Navy Seal trainer who made us draw and fire over 500 rounds in 2 days with our Smith and Wesson Model 10's! Our hands were so red and torn up but it has to be mastered if you plan on surviving and second nature for an effective draw.

When you have sweaty hands I bet that Glock will become a bit of a burden?

Sinister Angel
10-16-04, 06:47 AM
Sigs are nice but so damn expensive! Did you give any thought to the .357 Sig chambered Glocks? It's amazing that is surpasses the .357 magnum in power and penetration from what I remember reading.

...

When you have sweaty hands I bet that Glock will become a bit of a burden?

Actually, I wouldn't mind a G32, but on the other hand, this was available cheap and right now. That doesn't mean I can't shoot .357 Sig though :D
http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=G23&cco=33

Yeah, .357 barrel in a 23, yeah, that cool :coolgleam

In terms of sweaty hands, I don't know. When I get to that point I'd be able to tell you.

Rolex
10-16-04, 10:45 AM
Sigs are nice but so damn expensive! Did you give any thought to the .357 Sig chambered Glocks? It's amazing that is surpasses the .357 magnum in power and penetration from what I remember reading.


When you have sweaty hands I bet that Glock will become a bit of a burden?

Ralphie the 357 sig is a nice caliber, but penetration shouldn't be your first concern. When you use a handgun for personal defense penetration is not a primary issue (unless you're defending yourself from buffalo or the like). Bullet design and velocity are really more important factors then penetration. You want the projectile to penetrate the superficial tissues and expand to a diameter greater then its original size (you probably know that though). The expansion transfers more energy throughout the soft tissue thereby doing more damage. Shooting through a target allows all the "valuable" energy to pass right through your intended target, and it's less effective for stopping.

I had a small problem with sweating while shooting at indoor ranges with my Glock. Hogue makes a grip you can slip over the handle for that reason. I really like it better then stock, but it does add some size to the grip of the gun, which could be bad for a person with smaller hands.

Ralph
10-16-04, 04:42 PM
Ralphie the 357 sig is a nice caliber, but penetration shouldn't be your first concern. When you use a handgun for personal defense penetration is not a primary issue (unless you're defending yourself from buffalo or the like). Bullet design and velocity are really more important factors then penetration.

Absolutely! I was just giving a general overview of what the calibre seems capable of. Last year I wrote volumes on the issue of overpenetration, wasted energy and even the liability issue, etc. Ask SA, he knows. :yup: I'm amazed by this calibre and am wondering how the Glocks, etc. chambered for it are holding up? It is a very high pressure round and it reminds me of the Bren Ten in the mid-1980's when several of them developed stress fractures from the power of the cartridge. Back then, it seemed that only heavy revolvers could handle magnum pressures, but I am guessing that has changed today with greater technology. Personally, I think titanium might make a good material for a lightweight, reasonable strong and durable firearm but I'm guessing the costs would be astronomical? If I'm not mistaken, didn't S&W make some smaller 38's in titanium? Any other manufacturers?

davesdeville
10-16-04, 04:43 PM
Absolutely correct! I think Dave might have just been venting, flirting with the idea of being able to use force if met with force, etc.

Alright, if someone goes for a gun I'll just get shot then.

Ralph
10-16-04, 04:57 PM
Alright, if someone goes for a gun I'll just get shot then.

That's certainly not what I meant. And I'm on your side with the story you described. Self defense is a basic human right as far as I'm concerned, and when you described and defended your story you sounded a bit upset that it even happened, and I would be too.

It's still better to avoid a situation like this imo and not worth risking your life in confrontation, however, if forced with no choice, it is terrific to be able to have the tools necessary to preserve life, YOUR life IF NEED BE. My first thoughts (if things got really hairy say) would be to put the grille to him! There is no better, immediately available weapon than your 4,000 pound vehicle IMO!

Dead Sled
10-16-04, 10:00 PM
one thing about .40 cal Glocks is DO NOT SHOOT HAND LOADS most Glocks will go KaBoom if you shoot anything other than factory loads

Rolex
10-17-04, 12:17 AM
If I'm not mistaken, didn't S&W make some smaller 38's in titanium? Any other manufacturers?

S&W and Taurus both make titanuim revolvers. I can't think of another.

Sinister Angel
10-17-04, 04:29 AM
one thing about .40 cal Glocks is DO NOT SHOOT HAND LOADS most Glocks will go KaBoom if you shoot anything other than factory loads


Reallly... That's interesting. Why is that?

Ralph
10-17-04, 05:18 AM
Reallly... That's interesting. Why is that?

I'm willing to bet it's too much pressure because sometimes people like to put a few more grains to get a little more punch out of their toys and they aren't able to tolerate it. Just like too little GP and the slide won't rack fully to chamber the next round and you might even get a stovepipe. That's the beauty of a magnum revolver, a little more doesn't hurt but over time it can loosen the cylender, but not by much.

Sinister Angel
10-17-04, 05:23 AM
ahh, so it's just the issue of dealing with a hot load. The literature says factory loads only, but it doesn't make any mention of being able to use +P rounds or not.

Ralph
10-17-04, 06:00 AM
ahh, so it's just the issue of dealing with a hot load. The literature says factory loads only, but it doesn't make any mention of being able to use +P rounds or not.

I don't want to speak for Deadsled, but I'm assuming it has to do with hand loading, and excessive pressures, etc.

However, I'm suprised the manual doesn't clarify about using +P factory loads. I would phone Glock or email them to make sure? I know that my Ruger P-85 manual stated I could use +P loads but I never bothered. I kept a record and ran 3400 rounds through it and only had a couple of jams due to some crappy lead reloads I bought at the gunshow and the other was a dented casing on some cheap factory Mexican "Acquillas" (sp?)

Sinister Angel
10-17-04, 03:05 PM
I don't want to speak for Deadsled, but I'm assuming it has to do with hand loading, and excessive pressures, etc.

However, I'm suprised the manual doesn't clarify about using +P factory loads. I would phone Glock or email them to make sure? I know that my Ruger P-85 manual stated I could use +P loads but I never bothered. I kept a record and ran 3400 rounds through it and only had a couple of jams due to some crappy lead reloads I bought at the gunshow and the other was a dented casing on some cheap factory Mexican "Acquillas" (sp?)

Right, but I figure the excessive pressures and +P thing would go hand in hand. I wouldn't be firing bought handloads anyway, I would be doing my own. My friend wants to go in on a Dillan 650 with me. You wanna talk shitty casing and CQ though? Amercian Brand ammo is the suck! I bought 500 rounds of .45 ACP before I went out on the boat to put through my friend's Springfield, and that was skanky shit. FTF problems just about everymag.

Ralph
10-17-04, 04:39 PM
Right, but I figure the excessive pressures and +P thing would go hand in hand. I wouldn't be firing bought handloads anyway, I would be doing my own. My friend wants to go in on a Dillan 650 with me. You wanna talk shitty casing and CQ though? Amercian Brand ammo is the suck! I bought 500 rounds of .45 ACP before I went out on the boat to put through my friend's Springfield, and that was skanky shit. FTF problems just about everymag.

Canuck brass is nice and thick, especially the military surplus 9 millie. Those reloads I fired had alot of casings date stamped "43" and my friend still reloads them! They will probably last forever and I've heard that new brass from say factory ammo is good for one or two reloads before it is no good?

I always regretted not owning a .45.

Rolex
10-17-04, 06:28 PM
I always regretted not owning a .45.

The old Colt 45 ACP Gov model was the sweetest shooting gun. I believe the 45 ACP is still one of the very best personal defense rounds made. :yup: It's just hard to get the same capacity carry in the single stack mags. When manufacturers make higher cap double stack mags in the 45, the grip of the gun is always too big for my hand, which makes it akward to shoot. :banghead:

Ralph
10-17-04, 10:40 PM
The old Colt 45 ACP Gov model was the sweetest shooting gun. I believe the 45 ACP is still one of the very best personal defense rounds made. :yup: It's just hard to get the same capacity carry in the single stack mags. When manufacturers make higher cap double stack mags in the 45, the grip of the gun is always too big for my hand, which makes it akward to shoot. :banghead:

Ever heard of Para-Ordinance from Canada? I think they make the frames here then send the rest to Florida to complete. They make a staggered 1911 frame and clips that hold 14 .45 ACP rounds. I agree, I never cared much for the girth of the thick gripes on my Ruger 9. At the same time I LOVE the Government model but found that it was too thin and my fingers were overlapping! I found the perfect fit in the 686 .357 but that's a different animal.

I remember back in 1989, my P-85 cost $489. A new Government Model (blued) cost $800, and a Desert Eagle cost $1,000 in .44 mag. I opted for the 9 because the ammo was a lot cheaper but I could have afforded the 686 Smith back then ALSO which was a measily $350.00!! So I COULD have bought the 686 AND 9mm for about the same cost as one Colt! Now my 686 costs $700 dollars so I'll have to save. :crying:

I just don't know if I would feel comfortable carrying "cocked and locked." I would carry double action revolver/auto with a round chambered and the safety off.

I agree nothing is better than a .45 for pistol defence and Jef Cooper would agree with you. ;)

Dead Sled
10-17-04, 11:07 PM
Reallly... That's interesting. Why is that?
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb.html

that will explain it better than I can in one post

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/blt21a.jpg

Elvis
10-17-04, 11:49 PM
I've seen one do that before. I'm not much of a gun guy, but an acquaintance of mine is a Lt. in the local police dept. He bought a Glock within a few months of joining the force. At the time it was a major expenditure for him.

Anyway, he spent hours and hours at the range with his Glock, and being an ex-marine you know he took good care of it. One day, within a year of his big purchase, KaBoom! He showed it to me and a few guys I worked with one day, we couldn't believe it.

I just thought it was because it was a plastic gun. That shows you how much I know on the subject.

Elvis
10-17-04, 11:56 PM
On another topic, here's a pic of my new one, manufactured by Henry Repeating Arms Co.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/images/rifles/leveraction_large.jpg

I fired about 100 rounds today, adjusting the sight and getting used to it. This is the same rifle I used to defend my home from the terrorist armadillo a couple weeks ago.

By the end of the day, I was consistently hitting golf balls off a tee from 50 feet. It still shoots a little to the left, but the kill zone I'm after is about 3", and I'll probably only be 30 ft. away next time I "hunt."

Ralph
10-18-04, 12:22 AM
On another topic, here's a pic of my new one, manufactured by Henry Repeating Arms Co.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/images/rifles/leveraction_large.jpg

I fired about 100 rounds today, adjusting the sight and getting used to it. This is the same rifle I used to defend my home from the terrorist armadillo a couple weeks ago.

By the end of the day, I was consistently hitting golf balls off a tee from 50 feet. It still shoots a little to the left, but the kill zone I'm after is about 3", and I'll probably only be 30 ft. away next time I "hunt."

Very nice! .22's are probably the most accurate round out there for rifles imo. Lever actions are a tighter lock-up than a semi-automatic action, so the accuracy should be exceptional. Of course the most accurate rifles are supposed to be bolt action because of the tightness of the chambering, etc. The thing about .22's is that the breech area sure gets dirty fast and I always had to use about 10 Q-tips to clean it with Hoppes #9. Did you notice after all those rounds that the cartridges were going into the chamber a little more ridgedly? How was the action, still smooth?

No offence Elvis, but do you remember those red cap toy cowbow rifles we had when we were kids? Your kinda looks like that. :p I had one catch fire once and instead of one red cap burning, they all decided to pop at the same time LOL!

Elvis
10-18-04, 01:41 AM
The lever action is still very smooth, I think I've fired it about 200 times so far. I was practicing today because I discovered a fresh armadillo hole in the yard. This one hasn't found his way up to the house yet, but I know he's out there. If we have another drought, he'll be in the flower beds for sure. I strapped a small flashlight on it with zip ties. That's probably illegal, but I'm not hunting these things for sport, this is war.

As a joke, I gave my wife a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas several years ago. (Ever see the movie "A Christmas Story?") She loved it! Anyway, this rifle looks almost EXACTLY like the BB gun. Just a little bit bigger.

I've gotta go buy a cleaning kit. My shotgun looks pretty bad right now.

Ralph
10-18-04, 03:23 AM
The lever action is still very smooth, I think I've fired it about 200 times so far. I was practicing today because I discovered a fresh armadillo hole in the yard. This one hasn't found his way up to the house yet, but I know he's out there. If we have another drought, he'll be in the flower beds for sure. I strapped a small flashlight on it with zip ties. That's probably illegal, but I'm not hunting these things for sport, this is war.

As a joke, I gave my wife a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas several years ago. (Ever see the movie "A Christmas Story?") She loved it! Anyway, this rifle looks almost EXACTLY like the BB gun. Just a little bit bigger.

I've gotta go buy a cleaning kit. My shotgun looks pretty bad right now.

Afraid I haven seen that movie but I remember the commercial for it.

Damn, that sounds like fun and I miss gopher hunting with my .22 on the farm! I wish I could come over and join you. I've got a 20 ga. Mossberg pump that I bought in 1997 as a birthday present to myself and it's not even broke in yet! I think it only has 75 rounds through it and I've got several boxes of rifled slugs I would love to try on your dillers. :lildevil: It came with a 26 in. barrel but I had a gunsmith shorten it to 21 inches and it is very fast handling. I'm missing the war, er, I mean the fun down there! ;) We had a problem with moles digging holes on the farm as well as raccoons everywhere.

Elvis
10-18-04, 11:38 AM
Ralph, YOU of ALL PEOPLE should own a copy of this movie.

http://www2.warnerbros.com/achristmasstory/

http://acs.flicklives.com/

Ralph
10-18-04, 04:28 PM
Ralph, YOU of ALL PEOPLE should own a copy of this movie.

http://www2.warnerbros.com/achristmasstory/

http://acs.flicklives.com/

20 years old!!! This wasn't the movie I thought I saw the commercial for then obviously. That's strange, because when I was 9 in 1976, my Dad bought me a Winchester Cooey model .22 and I still have it. Now I know why some of you call me Ralphie or Ralphy! :rant2:

p.s. that kid looks familiar, I think I saw him in some sort of early 1980's horror movie where they go camping in the desert or something.

Elvis
10-18-04, 05:35 PM
He also played "Messy Marvin" in the Hershey's chocolate syrup commercials.

http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/personid-73376

Yeah, that's one reason why I call you "Ralphie" sometimes. I had a cat named Ralphie too. He was a cool cat, kind of like a dog in a cat suit. But he got really sick and sh!t all over the house. Poor guy. We eventually had to put him to sleep because he had a bad liver. Too much partying before I adopted him, I guess.

You don't have a bad liver, do you Ralph? If you ever start sh!tting on the furniture, I can recommend a good vet.

Ralph
10-18-04, 06:40 PM
If you ever start sh!tting on the furniture, I can recommend a good vet.

Actually that happened once to me in college, but I learned my lesson, NO MORE cheap American beer from cute American exchange student. :D She wasn't too impressed with me after that for some reason. :rolleyes2

I'm assuming you are using hollow points? For game that big and if you are restricted to "long rifle" .22 I would recommend something with magnum charge. I've had good results with CCI "Stingers" (hyper-velocity) but they weren't as accurate as Remington "Yellow Jackets." If those things are tough I guess you would have to go with solid lead for penetration but don't expect quick kills.

Elvis
10-18-04, 07:26 PM
I'm using hollow points, this particular rifle is a rimfire .22, not the .22 magnum. I'm always within 50 feet of my targets anyway, so I could get by with shorts. Wal Mart didn't carry them.

My next weaponry purchase will probably be a .410 pump or lever (if I can find one). I'm a little hesitant to shoot a .22 upward. I always like to see the "backstop" if I should happen to miss. With a .410 you know you won't be doing any damage if you aim into the sky and miss.

Occasionally we have possums who make repeat visits. I give 'em one opportunity to leave, but if they're still there 5 minutes later, or if they come back the next night I make their departure permanent. I also have a blackbird problem every January and I hate wasting a 12 ga. shell when a .410 makes enough noise.

Ralph
10-18-04, 09:49 PM
I'm using hollow points, this particular rifle is a rimfire .22, not the .22 magnum. I'm always within 50 feet of my targets anyway, so I could get by with shorts. Wal Mart didn't carry them.

My next weaponry purchase will probably be a .410 pump or lever (if I can find one). I'm a little hesitant to shoot a .22 upward. I always like to see the "backstop" if I should happen to miss. With a .410 you know you won't be doing any damage if you aim into the sky and miss.

Occasionally we have possums who make repeat visits. I give 'em one opportunity to leave, but if they're still there 5 minutes later, or if they come back the next night I make their departure permanent. I also have a blackbird problem every January and I hate wasting a 12 ga. shell when a .410 makes enough noise.

In all seriousness Pete, I just wouldn't waste your hard earned money on a .410. They just don't have range, and the use of them is very limited. You would have to use "full choke" for your war and not spread the pattern too thin IMO. I wouldn't go less powerful than a 20 ga. and I love mine. If you are worried about recoil, you can use a lighter load like 7.5 bird shot, but for your armadillo problem, nothing less than 4 shot. I have some #3 buckshot that would fit the bill nicely and with 20 pellets each .22 calibre (I believe) you wouldn't be leaving anything to chance. The range and backdrop is not really a concern like that of a high powered rifle, or even a .22. Thye pellets basically just start to drop. My friend told me that his uncle would have him stand about 100 yards away with his back turned, and his uncle would then proceed to fire a couple of 12 ga. shells at him!! The pellets would hit his back but because they lost so much velocity they were harmless! I know, this was VERY stupid to do but it proves my point about limited shotgun range. If you live on an acreage, or somewhere away from other homes, I wouldn't worry about range, just don't shoot in their direction with your .22.

Mt fiance was terrified to fire the Moss .20 pump and I had to actually help her hold it while she fired. After, she liked it so much and said it was nothing, but she fired it from the hip more out of fear for her shoulder LOL! I just thought it would be good for her to know how to use it. We tried to get some crows flying overhead but no luck because when the gunsmith shortened the barrel, he couldn't find his threader for 20 ga. chokes and a full choke would have improved my range. With a straight bore it is only really effective to 30 yards or so. The 12 ga. gives you much more range because of the power. I was warned to not fire any shotgun with slugs and a full choke because the recoil is worse this way due to increased pressure in the barrel.

Go with a .20 because it is powerful enough to double as a deer gun with slugs, or can be used on ducks, etc. with heavierloads, etc. There are even some police departments in the U.S. supposedly issueing the 20 ga because smaller frame officers can handle it better, etc.

Ralph
10-18-04, 10:10 PM
If you must have a .410 Pete, here is a good choice. There shouldn't be a problem "finding" a .410 although I would make sure you can buy a wide variety of shells for it. I'll still try to talk you into a .20 though. :devil:


http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/model500.htm

Rolex
10-18-04, 10:43 PM
If you must have a .410 Pete, here is a good choice. There shouldn't be a problem "finding" a .410 although I would make sure you can buy a wide variety of shells for it. I'll still try to talk you into a .20 though. :devil:



http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/model500.htm

My very first gun as a boy was a Mossberg 410, bolt action. I still have (and love) that gun. I hope to pass it on to my kid one day.

Elvis
10-19-04, 12:05 AM
I just like the weight and size of the .410, and range really isn't an issue. I have a nice old J.C. Higgins 12 ga. pump that is highly effective, but in most cases it is literally overkill.

The .410 would be strictly for varmints in trees, primarily possums. Rarely more than 30 feet away. I just don't want to make a mess, if you know what I mean. These are surgical strikes.

In the winter of 1983-84, I was living at home with my parents, working and going to night school. They live in a 125-year-old house, and the attic security had been breached by squirrels. Dozens of them. My father and I declared war.

We started with .22's. Then we moved up to the .410. Finally, we decided that we had had enough and we each took a 12 ga. I killed 14 that year, he killed 18. It was not a sport to us, it was mass annihilation. He has a Browning automatic. Awesome gun.

I'll never hunt ducks (I have a friend who does it for me and gives me all I need) and I'll never hunt deer--they're just too pretty.

Ralph
10-19-04, 12:14 AM
12 ga. in the attic? You'll have no walls left. :p Or hearing for that matter.

In the mid 1980's my parents had a sparrow in the garage that would NOT leave! We tried leaving the big garage door open and the walk-in door but no luck. It was time to get my pellet rifle in .177 cal. More than enough for a tiny sparow. The way I look at it, overkill is a good thing because it is more humane if the animal does not suffer, etc.

I'm curious how your dogs are reacting to the armadillos? Are they helping hunt them or running away? :shhh:

Elvis
10-19-04, 12:24 AM
Since an unfortunate incident a couple years ago, they're fenced in now. I used to have an invisible fence, and we rarely had unwanted varmints in the yard.

Now they just alert me to potential invasions. I think they got a visual on the armadillo this morning at about 6:20, but it was starting to rain and I didn't feel like screwing with it.

The yellow lab would want to play with it, one of the mutts would kill it and immediately lose interest, then the other would drag the carcass around.