: Is the Hyundai Equus REALLY ready for prime time?



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Lord Cadillac
05-12-11, 02:31 PM
Maybe not...


Unfortunately, I have had a number of service issues already with my Equus. While I absolutely love the idea of this car, it is in my opinion falling far short of it's potential and to make matters worse, the dealer service experience has not fared any better or even the 'exclusive' factory service but more on that later.

Problems started at about 3,000 km's. The massaging seat system stopped working, had to wait until a complete new seat back was sent from Korea, which took 2 weeks. Not the end of the world but frustrating nonetheless. After getting it replaced the massaging system is noisier and rather anemic as compared to the original one and another I tested at the dealership. So, if we're keeping score, this is an incomplete repair.

Next item was

Read more... (http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=7360)

OffThaHorseCEO
05-12-11, 02:43 PM
which is exactly why i say "its a hyundai!" in disbelief when everyone praises the equus. Sure cadillac lincoln bmw etc have their share of problems, but if hyundai is trying to break into this segment they need to be rock solid and deliver on all their promises

Stingroo
05-12-11, 03:35 PM
So uh.... I have just one thing to say about this:



Called it.

Lord Cadillac
05-12-11, 03:47 PM
I was the first one to say Hyundai would be on track with this. I have no issue being the first one to say I was wrong (and point it out as well).

OffThaHorseCEO
05-12-11, 03:56 PM
Bigger man is bigger

ben.gators
05-12-11, 05:58 PM
1- Any car comes with problem, and a fully loaded luxury car comes with more problems! This is a fact and Equus was not, is not, and will not be an exception to this fact!

2- Equus was introduced and advertised in a very overrated and exaggerated manner, claiming that Equus is something really beyond MB, BMW, Lexus, and Cadillac in terms of features, specification, reliability and much more important the aftermarket support and Equus will easily dominate the market, although it does not have a character. And the sad point is Hyundai could convinced a group of people that were into the cars.

3- The bottom line is, because:
*Equus is not a perfect car
*it is just a needy car like any other luxury car,
*and Hyundai dealerships will make you pissed off like any other dealership
why should I spend premium money for a Hyundai? Lets buy a MB or Caddillac and have the same problems, but at least I can be happy and say that I am driving a Benz or Cadillac!

The Raven
05-12-11, 06:13 PM
Just like I said when this car came out, and then reiterated when I drove one.

It's very nice, for a Hyundai. Certainly the highest quality and most luxurious Hyundai ever built...but still a Hyundai.

It takes alot more than just a good drivetrain, complete feature set, and upscale styling to be successful in the premium segment.

Jesda
05-12-11, 07:57 PM
Sounds like a Cadillac owner experience

maeng9981
05-12-11, 08:03 PM
why should I spend premium money for a Hyundai? Lets buy a MB or Caddillac and have the same problems, but at least I can be happy and say that I am driving a Benz or Cadillac!

:yeah:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-12-11, 08:36 PM
This really is no different from any other new luxury car introduction. Aside from owning a Hyundai v. a Mercedes or whatever, I don't see what the big deal is...

Destroyer
05-12-11, 10:10 PM
Aside from owning a Hyundai v. a Mercedes or whatever, I don't see what the big deal is...Really? A Hyundai badge makes the same statement as Mercedes badge does? No, it doesn't. Fact is you could drive a used $10k Mercedes and people will think you layed down much more money than if you drove a new Equus. It's all perception. Just having that Hyundai badge destroys the grandeur of driving a $60k car. It just does even if that Hyundai is better than a Benz. :yup:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-12-11, 10:16 PM
No Nick, what I meant was that aside from having a brand new Hyundai (Equus) or a brand new Mercedes (S-Class), the brand of car doesn't matter because a newly released luxury sedan is going to have lots of teething issues for the first few years. The only difference is that you can brag you own a Mercedes, and you can't do that with a Hyundai.

Just an example, but the W220 S-Class (2000-06) had a ton of really annoying issues in it's first few years, but they're still desired because they're a Benz.

Destroyer
05-12-11, 10:23 PM
No Nick, what I meant was that aside from having a brand new Hyundai (Equus) or a brand new Mercedes (S-Class), the brand of car doesn't matter because a newly released luxury sedan is going to have lots of teething issues for the first few years. The only difference is that you can brag you own a Mercedes, and you can't do that with a Hyundai.

Just an example, but the W220 S-Class (2000-06) had a ton of really annoying issues in it's first few years, but they're still desired because they're a Benz.Gotcha. This makes more sense and you are right. How long did it take for Cadillac to get the teething problems out of the N*? Hmmm. :bouncy:

The Raven
05-12-11, 10:33 PM
No Nick, what I meant was that aside from having a brand new Hyundai (Equus) or a brand new Mercedes (S-Class), the brand of car doesn't matter because a newly released luxury sedan is going to have lots of teething issues for the first few years. The only difference is that you can brag you own a Mercedes, and you can't do that with a Hyundai.

Just an example, but the W220 S-Class (2000-06) had a ton of really annoying issues in it's first few years, but they're still desired because they're a Benz.

Agreed completely.

But there's one thing to add...the Equus is not on par in terms of materials quality, fit and finish, and refinement with BMW, MB, and Cadillac. It MIGHT have a shot at Buick/Acura/Lexus, but I think even those brands are a level up from the Equus.

thebigjimsho
05-12-11, 10:42 PM
Much ado about nothing...

Destroyer
05-12-11, 11:37 PM
Agreed completely.

But there's one thing to add...the Equus is not on par in terms of materials quality, fit and finish, and refinement with BMW, MB, and Cadillac. It MIGHT have a shot at Buick/Acura/Lexus, but I think even those brands are a level up from the Equus.I don't think Cadillac is in the same league as MB, BMW or Lexus by a long shot. I simply don't, at least not anytime in the last 30 years. So how you came to the conclusion that the Equus isn't as refined as a Cadillac but would be as refined as a Lexus is beyond comprehension. I judge Lexus by the LS models, not the Camry makeovers and in that regard I can't think of a Caddy I'd take over an LS460 aside from a V (but that is the kid in me talking). I haven't driven an Equus and really don't have any desire to do so. I would buy a Hyundai and I'm strangely attracted to the Genesis coupe but I would not buy a Hyundai if the sole reason was to make a statement.

nguyennhatquang
05-12-11, 11:54 PM
1- Any car comes with problem, and a fully loaded luxury car comes with more problems! This is a fact and Equus was not, is not, and will not be an exception to this fact!

2- Equus was introduced and advertised in a very overrated and exaggerated manner, claiming that Equus is something really beyond MB, BMW, Lexus, and Cadillac in terms of features, specification, reliability and much more important the aftermarket support and Equus will easily dominate the market, although it does not have a character. And the sad point is Hyundai could convinced a group of people that were into the cars.

3- The bottom line is, because:
*Equus is not a perfect car
*it is just a needy car like any other luxury car,
*and Hyundai dealerships will make you pissed off like any other dealership
why should I spend premium money for a Hyundai? Lets buy a MB or Caddillac and have the same problems, but at least I can be happy and say that I am driving a Benz or Cadillac!

yeah..i still love my car even if it have something like shit. but really 11 years. it doesn't have any problem and 170.000KM. i just change the oil in every 5000 km and pump the gas and run.
yeah..benz have a lot of problem. my father benz W220 500 need to replace the air shock in 50.000km. after that replace the EIS..and lot lot of thing. but it is still a benz.
event benz or caddy is the shit.. i still spent money in them. But of course. they're not the shit. hight quality, hi tech..car.

drewsdeville
05-12-11, 11:56 PM
There's something I don't understand here. Overall, Equus threads seem die off after a slew of comments about how no one here really cares about it (this thread, for example)....yet I can't help but notice it's a topic that pops up here frequently. I wonder if the Hyundai guys even talk about it as much :cookoo:

Lord Cadillac
05-13-11, 12:24 AM
Cadillac has some catching up to do with ALL the aforementioned makes. Like it or not.


I don't think Cadillac is in the same league as MB, BMW or Lexus by a long shot. I simply don't, at least not anytime in the last 30 years. So how you came to the conclusion that the Equus isn't as refined as a Cadillac but would be as refined as a Lexus is beyond comprehension. I judge Lexus by the LS models, not the Camry makeovers and in that regard I can't think of a Caddy I'd take over an LS460 aside from a V (but that is the kid in me talking). I haven't driven an Equus and really don't have any desire to do so. I would buy a Hyundai and I'm strangely attracted to the Genesis coupe but I would not buy a Hyundai if the sole reason was to make a statement.

gdwriter
05-13-11, 01:29 AM
There's something I don't understand here. Overall, Equus threads seem die off after a slew of comments about how no one here really cares about it (this thread, for example)....yet I can't help but notice it's a topic that pops up here frequently. I wonder if the Hyundai guys even talk about it as much :cookoo:Sal also owns the Hyundai Equus owners forum. Mystery solved.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-13-11, 08:15 AM
The Equus has been on sale for what?? 4-6 weeks already? I've seen two, maybe three on the roads so far. I wonder how it's comparing to the Phaeton when that first hit the market...? Hopefully it's doing better...

Destroyer
05-13-11, 09:13 AM
The Equus has been on sale for what?? 4-6 weeks already? I've seen two, maybe three on the roads so far. I wonder how it's comparing to the Phaeton when that first hit the market...? Hopefully it's doing better...My guess is that anyone going out to look at luxury cars passes the Hyundai dealership and doesn't think twice. The Equus cannot be an easy car to sell. :nono:

Stingroo
05-13-11, 11:05 AM
Almost anything could do better than the Phaeton. I still have NEVER seen one. Ever. I've seen two Equuses. Equii? Equm? Whatever. I've seen two of them.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-13-11, 11:24 AM
ive seen a couple of phaetons. They are definitely noticeable.

i wonder what they command on the used market, id like to roll one.

Lord Cadillac
05-13-11, 12:39 PM
I've seen a few Phaetons on the road over the years.. They do have road presence - but much more so years ago.. I've seen a few Equus' already.. I think the Equus is doing better than the Phaeton did.. I don't have any numbers to back that up, however.. I just know I'm seeing more of them than I did the Phaeton when it first came out.

The Genesis and Equus are topics here because I'm disappointed that Cadillac isn't making cars like them. I'm not alone.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-13-11, 03:02 PM
Cadillac does need to step its game up. but like i said in another thread, even if they did, i couldnt afford one. Might make me step MY game up though so i could try to

The Tony Show
05-13-11, 03:45 PM
The Equus is exactly the kind of car Cadillac doesn't need to be building right now. And I don't mean the size, power, features or anything else, but rather the fact that people and reviewers all say "Oh yeah, it's nice.......for a Hyundai".

Cadillac built plenty of cars that were nice....for an American car, and look where that got them. Their next large RWD sedan needs to be awesome- not awesome for a Cadillac or awesome for an American car- just awesome period.

Lord Cadillac
05-13-11, 04:25 PM
I agree with you. But even as crappy as the Equus is, if it was a Cadillac, it would be in my driveway.


The Equus is exactly the kind of car Cadillac doesn't need to be building right now. And I don't mean the size, power, features or anything else, but rather the fact that people and reviewers all say "Oh yeah, it's nice.......for a Hyundai".

Cadillac built plenty of cars that were nice....for an American car, and look where that got them. Their next large RWD sedan needs to be awesome- not awesome for a Cadillac or awesome for an American car- just awesome period.

The Tony Show
05-13-11, 05:08 PM
You guys saying Cadillac isn't in the same league as MB or Lexus are living in a fantasy. While Cadillac might not have anything to compare with their upper echelon cars like the LS460 or S Class, the lower priced cars from those brands are a joke. The CTS (justifiably) takes its lumps over some hard plastics and visible flashing on a part here and there, but have you been in a C class or ES lately? Hard, cheap plastics on the door panels and dash, flimsy feeling, hollow plastic shift levers, crooked single stitching on the seat covers, etc, etc.

I'd favorably compare the materials and fit/finish in a CTS or SRX against those cars any day of the week. Maybe that's why they just won the KBB awards (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/25/cadillac-cleans-up-with-three-kbb-brand-image-awards/#continued) for both comfort and interior design. Cadillac doesn't yet have a flagship to compete, but their mass market offerings exceed the quality of the imports handily.

LAYGO
05-13-11, 05:11 PM
That's wtf that is! There was an Equus in the parking lot at work, but I couldn't tell who fricken built it.

Lord Cadillac
05-13-11, 06:38 PM
This is probably where I'm getting it all wrong but I don't judge the premium luxury makes by their entry-level luxury products. I judge from the top down. The best a company can offer shows me what that company is capable of doing. I'm not so concerned with their cheaper offerings.. Again, I'm probably doing it wrong.

In regards to interior "design", I think GM has some of the nicest looking interiors out there. Even the current Malibu is very impressive looking - though extremely cheap. In my personal opinion, far more so than other cars in it's class. I do feel GM deserves that KBB award for comfort and design...


You guys saying Cadillac isn't in the same league as MB or Lexus are living in a fantasy. While Cadillac might not have anything to compare with their upper echelon cars like the LS460 or S Class, the lower priced cars from those brands are a joke. The CTS (justifiably) takes its lumps over some hard plastics and visible flashing on a part here and there, but have you been in a C class or ES lately? Hard, cheap plastics on the door panels and dash, flimsy feeling, hollow plastic shift levers, crooked single stitching on the seat covers, etc, etc.

I'd favorably compare the materials and fit/finish in a CTS or SRX against those cars any day of the week. Maybe that's why they just won the KBB awards (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/25/cadillac-cleans-up-with-three-kbb-brand-image-awards/#continued) for both comfort and interior design. Cadillac doesn't yet have a flagship to compete, but their mass market offerings exceed the quality of the imports handily.

I'm probably blind but I just don't see it. I don't see a CTS stacking up to a 550i or E550 quality-wise.. I don't believe that just because I don't see it, it doesn't exist. So I can surely be wrong.

gdwriter
05-13-11, 07:35 PM
The CTS (justifiably) takes its lumps over some hard plastics and visible flashing on a part here and there, but have you been in a C class or ES lately? Hard, cheap plastics on the door panels and dash, flimsy feeling, hollow plastic shift levers, crooked single stitching on the seat covers, etc, etc.As I've mentioned before, I was frankly shocked at the 2010 Chicago Auto Show by how cheap and ugly the C-Class interior was. It was Chrysler-level bad. And both the 3-Series and 5-Series had very stiff, coarse-feeling leather, and even on the 5-Series, leatherette is standard. If you want the soft leather that you get in a Cadillac, you either have to pony up another $2K or buy a 7-Series.

Lord Cadillac
05-13-11, 08:03 PM
The 7-Series has the same hard leather as the rest of the BMW models. If you want soft leather in a BMW, you need to order it specifically. It comes standard in a package called "Individual".


As I've mentioned before, I was frankly shocked at the 2010 Chicago Auto Show by how cheap and ugly the C-Class interior was. It was Chrysler-level bad. And both the 3-Series and 5-Series had very stiff, coarse-feeling leather, and even on the 5-Series, leatherette is standard. If you want the soft leather that you get in a Cadillac, you either have to pony up another $2K or buy a 7-Series.

gdwriter
05-13-11, 08:12 PM
^^^ That's bloody ridiculous.

thebigjimsho
05-13-11, 08:13 PM
The 7-Series has the same hard leather as the rest of the BMW models. If you want soft leather in a BMW, you need to order it specifically. It comes standard in a package called "Individual".
And if you get it, C&D labels it as having the best seats in the world...

orconn
05-13-11, 08:20 PM
And if you get it, C&D labels it as having the best seats in the world...

I wonder if they are really as good as Volvo S80 seats? I also wonder whether, like Mercedes seats, they are so hard they promote bone spurs on your butt?

Destroyer
05-13-11, 08:23 PM
I agree with you. But even as crappy as the Equus is, if it was a Cadillac, it would be in my driveway.:hmm:

The Raven
05-13-11, 08:53 PM
I don't think Cadillac is in the same league as MB, BMW or Lexus by a long shot. I simply don't, at least not anytime in the last 30 years. So how you came to the conclusion that the Equus isn't as refined as a Cadillac but would be as refined as a Lexus is beyond comprehension. I judge Lexus by the LS models, not the Camry makeovers and in that regard I can't think of a Caddy I'd take over an LS460 aside from a V (but that is the kid in me talking). I haven't driven an Equus and really don't have any desire to do so. I would buy a Hyundai and I'm strangely attracted to the Genesis coupe but I would not buy a Hyundai if the sole reason was to make a statement.

I would certainly not talk about the last 30 years. I would only speak about today.

In terms of materials quality, fit and finish, and refinement, Cadillac absolutely is on par with MB and BMW. Granted, they need quite a few more models to be on par as a COMPANY, thus the reason I didn't word it that way.

Drive a new STS Platinum, and a new LS460, then revisit this discussion. I think you'll be very surprised at your opinion. That is if you can do the comparison with an un-biased mind. I myself couldn't see anything significant in terms of quality and refinement that would allow me to say definitively that the Lexus surpasses the Cadillac in any of those categories.

gary88
05-13-11, 09:18 PM
The 7-Series has the same hard leather as the rest of the BMW models. If you want soft leather in a BMW, you need to order it specifically. It comes standard in a package called "Individual".

That's just on the 740i though, on that the smooth Nappa leather is a $2800 option that doesn't require you to order Individual. On the 750i and 760i Nappa is standard.

Destroyer
05-13-11, 09:25 PM
I would certainly not talk about the last 30 years. I would only speak about today.

In terms of materials quality, fit and finish, and refinement, Cadillac absolutely is on par with MB and BMW. Granted, they need quite a few more models to be on par as a COMPANY, thus the reason I didn't word it that way.

Drive a new STS Platinum, and a new LS460, then revisit this discussion. I think you'll be very surprised at your opinion. That is if you can do the comparison with an un-biased mind. I myself couldn't see anything significant in terms of quality and refinement that would allow me to say definitively that the Lexus surpasses the Cadillac in any of those categories.I drove an LS460 when I was looking for an LS430. It was great car but not any better than the LS430 unless you like more buttons to play with. I won't buy an STS so there is no point in taking one for a drive. It may impress me but I know it will drop in value like crazy and will be headache down the road. Cadillac has left a bad taste in my mouth over time and this is NOT based on my H/G issue with my Deville. I base this on countless stories from dealers and people I know that buy cars at auction and by what I have seen on this forum. I also base this on the quality of the newer models that I have seen. Most recent would be a newish gen 1 CTS. Despite thinking they are ugly to begin with, a step inside made the outside look pretty. That's pretty bad. :suspect:

The Raven
05-13-11, 09:31 PM
I drove an LS460 when I was looking for an LS430. It was great car but not any better than the LS430 unless you like more buttons to play with. I won't buy an STS so there is no point in taking one for a drive. It may impress me but I know it will drop in value like crazy and will be headache down the road. Cadillac has left a bad taste in my mouth over time and this is NOT based on my H/G issue with my Deville. I base this on countless stories from dealers and people I know that buy cars at auction and by what I have seen on this forum. I also base this on the quality of the newer models that I have seen. Most recent would be a newish gen 1 CTS. Despite thinking they are ugly to begin with, a step inside made the outside look pretty. That's pretty bad. :suspect:

Don't you know any MB owners? Cadillac's mechanical issues absolutely pale in comparison to what MB owners go through. Benz's may be desirable, stylish, refined, and powerful...but well-built they ARE NOT! There's a reason they consistently score in the bottom five of all automakers in quality studies.

Destroyer
05-13-11, 10:04 PM
Don't you know any MB owners? Cadillac's mechanical issues absolutely pale in comparison to what MB owners go through. Benz's may be desirable, stylish, refined, and powerful...but well-built they ARE NOT! There's a reason they consistently score in the bottom five of all automakers in quality studies.I don't hear the same stories about MB as I do about Cadillacs. I know that since the 90's they have had their fare share of problems but it wouldn't stop me from buying one.

The Raven
05-13-11, 10:53 PM
I don't hear the same stories about MB as I do about Cadillacs. I know that since the 90's they have had their fare share of problems but it wouldn't stop me from buying one.

So you are saying that you won't buy a Cadillac because of quality concerns but you WOULD buy a MB despite their documented quality issues?

The only place I hear about Cadillac "quality problems" is on this forum. I do know alot more MB and BMW owners than Cadillac owners however. The few Cadillac owners I do know are very happy with their cars and several of the MB owners that are friends of mine hold Cadillac in a pretty high regard thanks to their impressions of my cars and Cadillac's new offerings.

I'm just very surprised to hear you say that you would not buy another Cadillac, a brand consistently ranked in the top ten in overall quality year after year, yet you WOULD buy a car from a brand consistenly ranked in the bottom five of those same lists.

77CDV
05-14-11, 02:29 AM
So you are saying that you won't buy a Cadillac because of quality concerns but you WOULD buy a MB despite their documented quality issues?

The only place I hear about Cadillac "quality problems" is on this forum. I do know alot more MB and BMW owners than Cadillac owners however. The few Cadillac owners I do know are very happy with their cars and several of the MB owners that are friends of mine hold Cadillac in a pretty high regard thanks to their impressions of my cars and Cadillac's new offerings.

I'm just very surprised to hear you say that you would not buy another Cadillac, a brand consistently ranked in the top ten in overall quality year after year, yet you WOULD buy a car from a brand consistenly ranked in the bottom five of those same lists.

There you go being logical again. You really must stop that.

orconn
05-14-11, 01:33 PM
I don't hear the same stories about MB as I do about Cadillacs. I know that since the 90's they have had their fare share of problems but it wouldn't stop me from buying one.

You are probably not old enough to remember all the stories about Mercedes-Benz reliability thirtty or forty years ago. Even then driving a Mercedes was a costly and time consuming experience, remember that the 4 year bumper to bumper waranties didn't begin being available on new cars till the late '90's. BMW and other European makes didn't fare any better!

Destroyer
05-14-11, 08:50 PM
This is probably where I'm getting it all wrong but I don't judge the premium luxury makes by their entry-level luxury products. I judge from the top down. The best a company can offer shows me what that company is capable of doing. I'm not so concerned with their cheaper offerings.. Again, I'm probably doing it wrong.

Exactly! This is exactly what I meant when I said "I think of Lexus, I think of the LS cars................". Cadillac does not have a competitor for the LS Lexus, S class Benz and is therefore not in the same league as a Benz, Bimmer or Lexus.

The Raven
05-14-11, 09:10 PM
Exactly! This is exactly what I meant when I said "I think of Lexus, I think of the LS cars................". Cadillac does not have a competitor for the LS Lexus, S class Benz and is therefore not in the same league as a Benz, Bimmer or Lexus.

I would agree that as a COMPANY, Cadillac needs more offerings to compete with MB and BMW. What I was trying to point out is that that fact DOES NOT in any way mean that the cars that Cadillac does offer don't stack up. They most certainly do, and in many cases, actually win in comparison.

I certainly see what you are saying about comparing the best a company has to offer, however, remember that the entry level cars are the most important to the success of a brand. So while you may judge a brand by it's flagship, that brand lives and dies by it's entry-level offerings. Cadillac is absolutely doing the right thing by nailing down the lower end of the line before tackling the big boys.

Destroyer
05-14-11, 09:21 PM
I certainly see what you are saying about comparing the best a company has to offer, however, remember that the entry level cars are the most important to the success of a brand. So while you may judge a brand by it's flagship, that brand lives and dies by it's entry-level offerings. Cadillac is absolutely doing the right thing by nailing down the lower end of the line before tackling the big boys.That may be true but as an enthusiast, I don't care. :cool2:

gary88
05-14-11, 09:35 PM
Well you should care because those bread and butter cars pay for the development of the performance versions of said cars.

Playdrv4me
05-14-11, 09:54 PM
The CTS is substantially better than the ES, which is only a viable comparison since it is currently Cadillac's smallest vehicle. However the CTS is only about on par with the GS that is it's more direct competitor size-wise.

Unfortunately the GS is six years old and about to be replaced.

As for the STS, it barely counts as anything more than a placeholder anymore... It's outdated and has been completely neutered of its V8.

Lord Cadillac
05-14-11, 10:26 PM
Cadillac is absolutely doing the right thing by nailing down the lower end of the line before tackling the big boys.

They should have F'ing figured that out 30 years ago. We're talking about a multi billion dollar corporation started in 1908. You'd figure they'd have this sort of thing down by now.

Stingroo
05-14-11, 10:48 PM
Well coulda, shoulda, woulda, and a dollar will buy you a cheeseburger.

77CDV
05-14-11, 10:53 PM
They should have F'ing figured that out 30 years ago. We're talking about a multi billion dollar corporation started in 1908 that's been through bankruptcy three times. You'd figure they'd have this sort of thing down by now.

Fixed.

Playdrv4me
05-15-11, 12:07 AM
lulz

hueterm
05-15-11, 12:17 AM
We're talking about a multi billion dollar corporation started in 1908.


That went bust in 2008 and whored itself out to the government teat...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-15-11, 12:26 AM
That's just on the 740i though, on that the smooth Nappa leather is a $2800 option that doesn't require you to order Individual. On the 750i and 760i Nappa is standard.

I'm on BMWUSA.com right now, and I'm building a 550i as we speak, and I'm finding that the nicer, softer Nappa leather is a $1,000 option that's only available in black and white/black. The nice light beige color and tobacco color aren't available in the Nappa leather. :(

orconn
05-15-11, 12:37 AM
They should have F'ing figured that out 30 years ago. We're talking about a multi billion dollar corporation started in 1908. You'd figure they'd have this sort of thing down by now.

Hell, AT&T was a lot older than GM and it never did figure out how to cope with its' new circumstances. I am afraid American management "Peter Principled" out a long time ago .... I am afraid it didn't work out too well for them. They seem to slavishly follow the leader down the same dead ends and end up going in lockstep down the same paths that leads to disaster.

77CDV
05-15-11, 02:14 AM
^But...but everyone else is doing it, Dad! :emocide:

ejguillot
05-15-11, 11:37 AM
Back to the subject of the Eqqus: Apparently in my area they're selling decently. I was at Wesley Chapel (a Tampa suburb) Hyundai 2 weeks ago getting some touch up paint, and they had an Eqqus on the lot with the Ultimate package (which was really nice inside :cool:). Sales guy told me that they had already sold 24 since the car arrived a month prior.

thebigjimsho
05-15-11, 02:34 PM
They should have F'ing figured that out 30 years ago. We're talking about a multi billion dollar corporation started in 1908. You'd figure they'd have this sort of thing down by now.
And YOU, the lazy, buying, American public said: "Please take a crap in a box and mark it guaranteed, you've got spare time. We'll buy it!" all the way through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. It's hard for any manufacturer to keep its edge when you're all dipshits...

thebigjimsho
05-15-11, 02:36 PM
Yep, I've seen a few in Boston and NYC. Ohnoes, places where people spend money like water and they're buying these things? Whodathunkit?

ben.gators
05-15-11, 06:00 PM
Back to the subject of the Eqqus: Apparently in my area they're selling decently. I was at Wesley Chapel (a Tampa suburb) Hyundai 2 weeks ago getting some touch up paint, and they had an Eqqus on the lot with the Ultimate package (which was really nice inside :cool:). Sales guy told me that they had already sold 24 since the car arrived a month prior.

One single dealership sold 24 Equus in one month?!?! I have heard that sales guys sometimes lie a bit, but not this much! The predicted sales number of Equus for the first year is about 2-3000 Equus and the statistics so far shows it will be something in this interval. So how a single dealership sells 24 in one month?

The Raven
05-15-11, 09:52 PM
One single dealership sold 24 Equus in one month?!?! I have heard that sales guys sometimes lie a bit, but not this much! The predicted sales number of Equus for the first year is about 2-3000 Equus and the statistics so far shows it will be something in this interval. So how a single dealership sells 24 in one month?

Yeah I think that salesman may have been stretching the truth slightly. Maybe they had 24 people look at that one car?!

ejguillot
05-15-11, 10:30 PM
Maybe so. I put it down to pent up demand and that Hyundais sell pretty well around here. Be interesting to see if they're still selling anywhere near that in 6 months.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-15-11, 10:35 PM
If I had the kind of money an average Equus owner does, I'd lease one for a few years and just try it out.

Playdrv4me
05-16-11, 07:28 AM
I've been searching for an uber cheap ride to replace the Expedition with, and have come across more than a few comical ads like this one... http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=298018825

I hate to add fuel to Nick's fire, but when dealers actually make a point to yell from the rooftops that a car they're selling DOESN'T have what was supposed to be that brand's star power plant, you have a definite perception problem gone out of control. And this is why Cadillac has to work twice as hard just to be acceptable. The CTS is a good start in that direction, but ANYTHING they're planning in the Equus strata will certainly have to be 10 times better just to be looked at. In other words, Hyundai will still sell more sub-par Equii even if the Cadillac competition is just slightly better.

thebigjimsho
05-16-11, 05:21 PM
One single dealership sold 24 Equus in one month?!?! I have heard that sales guys sometimes lie a bit, but not this much! The predicted sales number of Equus for the first year is about 2-3000 Equus and the statistics so far shows it will be something in this interval. So how a single dealership sells 24 in one month?
I could easily see that happening. Areas with money that are trendy with a lot of baby boomers? It only takes a few "Hey! What's that?" with some follow-up interest. I've seen it happen a lot in the Boston area. You don't see a new car months after it has been released. Then, seemingly overnight, it's the trendiest thing...

orconn
05-16-11, 05:35 PM
I agree the the "trendy" factor can sell a lot of cars, but even though it is new to the market and is cheaper than the competition I still don't see the "Hyundai Equus" being that attractive to the "I've gotta have it" crowd.

But let's face the more they sell now, the more that will come to used market soon!

thebigjimsho
05-16-11, 07:25 PM
I still disagree with the Cadillac crowd that the Equus will never be a "gotta-have-it" vehicle because it has a Hyundai badge. Whether a marque has been around for 100 years or 25, you make a push and make good cars, you can totally change public perception.

I see a crapload of new Sonatas and Elantras on the road, much more than any previous model. The Equus is a tougher sell, but it doesn't need to burn the sales charts. Just change perception...

ben.gators
05-16-11, 09:38 PM
I could easily see that happening. Areas with money that are trendy with a lot of baby boomers? It only takes a few "Hey! What's that?" with some follow-up interest. I've seen it happen a lot in the Boston area. You don't see a new car months after it has been released. Then, seemingly overnight, it's the trendiest thing...

Yes, without any doubt the sales number of a luxury car at a dealership depends on the location of the dealership and financial situation of the people living around. A luxury car dealership located at Wilshire Boulevard will do much much better than a dealership located at a ghetto place in selling premium cars.

BUT if a dealership sells 24 Equus in one month, I would expect to see tens of those cars parked in the dealership lot ready for sale and test drive.... If you return back to the original post you will see ejguillot says he saw just one Equus sitting in the lot! You can not have one single Equus sitting at a time at your lot and at the end of the month you sell 24! This is impossible!

Destroyer
05-17-11, 09:31 PM
I hate to add fuel to Nick's fire, but when dealers actually make a point to yell from the rooftops that a car they're selling DOESN'T have what was supposed to be that brand's star power plant, you have a definite perception problem gone out of control. We are no doubt referring to the very enthusiastic "NO NORTHSTAR HERE!!!!" quote from the ad. It is fairly common to see ads for non N* powered car put that or something similar in there. I've seen it in ads for Fleetwood Broughams and pre N* cars like this '94. :stirpot:

Destroyer
05-17-11, 09:35 PM
I see a crapload of new Sonatas and Elantras on the road, much more than any previous model. The Equus is a tougher sell, but it doesn't need to burn the sales charts. Just change perception...The Sonata is EVERYWHERE! Hyundai sells more of them in Florida than Toyota sells Camry's. :bonkers:

The Raven
05-17-11, 09:39 PM
We are no doubt referring to the very enthusiastic "NO NORTHSTAR HERE!!!!" quote from the ad. It is fairly common to see ads for non N* powered car put that or something similar in there. I've seen it in ads for Fleetwood Broughams and pre N* cars like this '94. :stirpot:

I personally find it hard to understand what 10-15 year old motors/cars have to do with Cadillac's current offerings.

Destroyer
05-17-11, 09:44 PM
I personally find it hard to understand what 10-15 year old motors/cars have to do with Cadillac's current offerings.Well, the N* was used till what? Last year? Anyway, nobody said anything about 10-15 year old motors/cars having anything to do with current offerings so I don't know where that is coming from. :hmm:

agp
05-18-11, 02:38 AM
I say no.

Aron9000
05-18-11, 06:07 AM
I have yet to see an Equus in Nashville. I've seen a couple Genesis cars, but they were all rentals.

That being said, I do see quite a few new Sonotas around, my neighbor bought a black one. I personally think that they(and the Elantra) are ugly, but I'll give Hyundai some credit for releasing such a polarizing design on their mainstream cars.

Of course the Genesis and Equus are a lot more stogy and conventional in their styling. I just wish that luxury cars were not so damn conserative now days. Seems like the only colors you see on newer German sedans is black, grey, silver, or white. What ever happened to the tailfin era of the 50's, or the baroque land barges of the 70's. At least in those days you bought a luxury car to be seen in, I feel like you really have to go out of your way to special order something flashy now days.

Jesda
05-18-11, 10:41 AM
I personally find it hard to understand what 10-15 year old motors/cars have to do with Cadillac's current offerings.

Reputation sells cars.

Stoneage_Caddy
05-18-11, 10:45 AM
Hyundai Equus

The car for the camry owner whos credit score kept them from buying that lexus

orconn
05-18-11, 01:50 PM
Hyundai Equus

The car for the camry owner whos credit score kept them from buying that lexus

Or his wife wants a "luxury" car but the poor bastard is too cheap to spring for Jag or a Mercedes!!

The Raven
05-18-11, 07:11 PM
Reputation sells cars.

The vast majority of current Cadillac shoppers don't know a damn thing about the Northstar's history.

Nor do the vast majority of current Mercedes buyers know anything about the company's quality issues.

Nor do the vast majority of Audi buyers know that they are actually buying a VW, and the terrible record that comes with those cars.

Perception sells cars.

orconn
05-18-11, 07:19 PM
The vast majority of current Cadillac shoppers don't know a damn thing about the Northstar's history.

Nor do the vast majority of current Mercedes buyers know anything about the company's quality issues.

Nor do the vast majority of Audi buyers know that they are actually buying a VW, and the terrible record that comes with those cars.

Perception sells cars.

It's true most perspective luxury buyers have no idea of the problem areas to be found in the cars that interest them. But, Lord knows, I have tried to make people aware of the expensive problems that come with Audis and Mercedes. It has all been to no avail, Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute!

Stingroo
05-18-11, 07:32 PM
I wish I could like The Raven's post twice.

ben.gators
05-18-11, 07:37 PM
I wish I could like The Raven's post twice.

I did on behalf of you... :D

Stingroo
05-18-11, 07:48 PM
I will like yours in return then, good sir.

orconn
05-18-11, 07:50 PM
The vast majority of current Cadillac shoppers don't know a damn thing about the Northstar's history.

Nor do the vast majority of current Mercedes buyers know anything about the company's quality issues.

Nor do the vast majority of Audi buyers know that they are actually buying a VW, and the terrible record that comes with those cars.

Perception sells cars.

And that Mercedes puts all of the same parts in the American market C's and E's that it puts in its' Third World taxis and trucks! That most of the difference between the Third world cars and the U.S. market cars is in the "frosting" not in the basic car.

Jesda
05-18-11, 10:38 PM
The vast majority of current Cadillac shoppers don't know a damn thing about the Northstar's history.

Perception sells cars.

Herp

Cadillacs are perceived as inferior because of the brand's reputation.

Derp


If you split hairs, you aren't actually creating more hair. People remember the diesels, the botched attempts at high-tech (8-6-4), and the decades of poor quality control. They remembered it so well that GM went bankrupt.

Playdrv4me
05-19-11, 08:31 AM
Herp

Cadillacs are perceived as inferior because of the brand's reputation.

Derp


If you split hairs, you aren't actually creating more hair. People remember the diesels, the botched attempts at high-tech (8-6-4), and the decades of poor quality control. They remembered it so well that GM went bankrupt.

i wish i could like this poast twice

Playdrv4me
05-19-11, 08:44 AM
Sure, the average bloke may not know a Northstar from a Deathstar, but Northstars lead to things like disastrous Consumer Reports and J.D. Power reliability scores for those sheeple that actually put all their faith in such publications and ratings systems... The problem is that then those same sheeple carry on that message to people they know like verbal swine flu. That pattern continues until you get all the way to the 30 something pool-boy poked house-wife at the Lexus dealer who when asked why she isn't considering a Cadillac instead of that Borg transport pod she's about to hop into, simply responds with some such ignorance to the effect of "Cadillacs... Those have a lot of problems don't they?".

You damn well better believe that Northstar, and likewise the Mercedes grenading evaporator play key roles in the eventual perceptions of people who have no idea that such components even exist.

The Raven
05-19-11, 07:04 PM
You damn well better believe that Northstar, and likewise the Mercedes grenading evaporator play key roles in the eventual perceptions of people who have no idea that such components even exist.

Oh yeah? When do you expect this to happen? The Northstar is, what, 18 years old now? I can't find a single person outside of this forum that even knows what the word "Northstar" refers to in reference to the name Cadillac. All are surprised to find that Cadillac has called their V8 "Northstar" for almost 20 years. I did hear a few "Oh I remember a commercial talking about something like that back in the 90's". That's it.

Even better, how long have MB's been terribly unreliable? As long as I can remember. Hasn't affected their image in the slightest.

Sorry, but I just completely disagree with the idea that the Northstar's history has any bearing on Cadillac's future. MB, VW/Audi, Land Rover, Jaguar, and many other "premium" makes have been selling very successfully on nothing but marketing-generated perception. All Cadillac has to do is create a similiar image from their advertising and their vehicle's styling, and they should do just fine.

hueterm
05-19-11, 08:37 PM
Other than the fact that they don't have much of an assortment, unless you want the 749th variation of a CTS...or a 'Lade...

orconn
05-19-11, 08:48 PM
It's funny, I was just reading a road test review of the Mercedes-Benz 190SL and 300SL written by Tom McCahill (in 1956), a well respected auto reviewer for the Mechanics Illustrated back in the last century, and while the review was full of Mercedes prestige and "superior engineering" statements, his actual revealed that they were delivering cars to to the U.S. market that were suffering from carburetor problems that kept them from running properly and that required remedial re-work in order to run half decently. He also, correctly noted, that the 190SL actually handled and performed better that the 300SL (Merc's premier sportscar of the day) on road courses despite being very under powered and rather over weight. He also stated the inspite of the fact that recently debuted Thunderbirds and Corvette would clean the 190SL's (and the 300SL too) clock in acceleration while costing about the same. However, when the chips were down, and he might have mentioned in the right circles, the Mercedes was the more prestigious of the three. Tom states that the 190SL is beautifully made and runs like a "Swiss watch" it is very lazy getting to 60 mph, taking well over thirteen seconds. But, hey it's a Mercedes. And here we can see the roots of the Mercedes superiority myth .... from a supposedly down to earth and much respected reviewer of the fifties and sixties.

I have extensive experience driving 190SL's and can tell you for a fact that while very pretty little convertibles, the 190SL was among the slowest cars of any sort that I have ever driven, any contemporary Jaguar hand the !90SL it head on a platter. Despite costing the same amount new!

Jesda
05-19-11, 08:58 PM
Sorry, but I just completely disagree with the idea that the Northstar's history has any bearing on Cadillac's future. MB, VW/Audi, Land Rover, Jaguar, and many other "premium" makes have been selling very successfully on nothing but marketing-generated perception. All Cadillac has to do is create a similiar image from their advertising and their vehicle's styling, and they should do just fine.

Marketing plays a HUGE role in the sale of luxury cars, but it isn't the entire picture. Your simplified view of "BUILD SOMETHING AND RUN LOTS OF ADS!" wouldn't even get you a D+ in Marketing 101. It would, however, get you hired as CEO of GM in 1981:
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/11/small_rogersmith.jpg

In the low end of the market, reliability is a HUGE selling point because lower-end buyers have limited resources for maintenance, fuel, and upkeep, thus the Corolla's position as the world's top-selling passenger car. At the high end, heritage, image, and reputation play a much larger role.

Land Rovers sell in spite of their electrical and mechanical issues because they sell to a very high-end segment of the market. They have immaculate interiors, tremendous capability, and a heritage that transcends reliability issues. LR's top-tier reputation is built on decades of a consistent history, and its sales volume in the United States has been low enough that flaws and defects haven't been widespread throughout the population. [At one point, the Cadillac division managed to outsell the Chrysler brand.]

Cadillac is mass market luxury, just like Lexus, serving the middle and upper middle class rather than the rich.

And exotics? Well, if you told someone with a CTS they had to change their brake pads every 6 months with Cadillac-only parts at a cost of $1,500, they might vomit on your shoe. The wealthy owner of a Ferrari typically doesn't care.



And that brings us to the other component of marketing:
Positioning -- Meeting consumer expectations and getting the right products into the hands of those who want them.

ryannel2003
05-19-11, 09:35 PM
How about Cadillac just build more appealing cars for people who don't want a FWD based crossover, a small, RWD car or a badge-engineered Tahoe? Next year, those are the only 3 Cadillac models you can buy once the STS and DTS go away? Cadillac (GM in general) has a history of releasing a new car with a new name and when that car fails, they change the name up again. Cimarron? Catera? Seville? I mean common dammit! The E-Class and S-Class nameplates has been around forever, along with 3-Series, 5-Series, 7-Series, etc. Along with brand perception is recognition of the car you're buying. Escalade and CTS have history, but nothing compared to what the German competition offer. Instead of reusing the DTS name, which GM feels is "damaged", they're going to rename the car XTS? Why can't GM just use the DTS name? I don't feel there is anything wrong with the car except for the fact it's using nearly 20 year old technology. But nope... GM is gonna rename it and if that car fails they'll rename it again in 6 years. It never ends.

I'll tell you right now I love Cadillac, but certain aspects of the cars do not match Mercedes and BMW. Perception is the biggest. People still think these are old man cars.

Let me also add that a CTS with ugly base alloy wheels, plastic caps where fog lights go on higher trim levels and cheap looking faux aluminum trim isn't the definition of luxury. Cadillac is known for really cheaping out on the base models. Does the 328i look cheap from the outside? I don't think so. Even the cheapest C-Class doesn't look cheap on the outside (inside is a different story).

Destroyer
05-19-11, 09:52 PM
Herp

Cadillacs are perceived as inferior because of the brand's reputation.

Derp


If you split hairs, you aren't actually creating more hair. People remember the diesels, the botched attempts at high-tech (8-6-4), and the decades of poor quality control. They remembered it so well that GM went bankrupt.You forgot the ultra-reliable powerhouse called the 4.1. :lildevil:

Ryansmagic
05-21-11, 11:15 PM
in short no. The workmanship and the sheer quality of materials makes up the difference.

The Raven
05-21-11, 11:36 PM
Your simplified view of "BUILD SOMETHING AND RUN LOTS OF ADS!" wouldn't even get you a D+ in Marketing 101. It would, however, get you hired as CEO of GM in 1981

...and it would, as proven by MB, Audi, and VW, help me sell a crapload of POS cars. Enough in fact to support an entire company for decades.

I'm not arguing that it's "right". I'm simply arguing that it's true. Image and perception sell cars. Quality and performance are secondary. There are lots of people out there today that buy cars based on quality, reliability, and overall performance. However, they are not the majority. The majority want IMAGE first and foremost.


How about Cadillac just build more appealing cars for people who don't want a FWD based crossover, a small, RWD car or a badge-engineered Tahoe? Next year, those are the only 3 Cadillac models you can buy once the STS and DTS go away?

????

Next year, Cadillac will have an entry-level 3-series fighter in the ATS (with three different variants, nonethless), the CTS (also with three variants), the XTS, the SRX, and the escalade. That's five models by my count. And in less than 5 years, they will have more than 10 different models.


Let me also add that a CTS with ugly base alloy wheels, plastic caps where fog lights go on higher trim levels and cheap looking faux aluminum trim isn't the definition of luxury. Cadillac is known for really cheaping out on the base models. Does the 328i look cheap from the outside? I don't think so. Even the cheapest C-Class doesn't look cheap on the outside (inside is a different story).

I disagree completely. You clearly have not driven base-trim BMW's. Even the first generation base CTS was a nicer car inside and out than the base 3-series and C-class. The base MBs and BMW's are not impressive at all.

See there it is, perception. People just seem to have this idea that BMW and MB make nothing but super luxurious quality cars at any trim level. Most have never ridden in any of those make's cars, let alone and base model and a well equipped model so as to make an informed comparison.

ryannel2003
05-22-11, 12:04 AM
ATS is not coming out until late 2011. XTS won't be here until 2012. That is one full year starting now that Cadillac will not be building anything other than CTS, SRX and Escalade.

I have driven several base model 3-Series and C-Class models. Outside they don't look cheap or feel cheap. Inside the Mercedes does look cheap... I'll give it that. But the BMW looks and feels high quality and doesn't have any of the shortcomings the CTS suffers from. It's not perception... it's a fact. I worked at a Cadillac dealership for 3 1/2 years and the cars were so close to being to the level of the Germans but they still aren't there. I recall sitting in many CTS's that had just come off the truck with poorly misaligned interior parts and lots of rattles. The CTS is in a weird spot... priced like a 3-Series, size of a 5-Series. Cadillac is going to remedy this with the next generation CTS, but just like the 1st Gen it's still in an awkward spot.

The 1st Gen CTS had a cheap interior. Period. It looked like an ATM machine and had low quality leather with cheap looking plastics. The door panels had the worst quality plastic I've personally seen on a luxury car. My Seville might have worse assembly quality, but the materials look and feel a lot nicer.

Cadillac is so close to building a car that will no longer have the excuse "It's just an American car", but its still not fully there yet.

gary88
05-22-11, 12:21 AM
Here's a base '06 330i loaner I had once.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4866305015_bbb4d2025c_o.jpg

Here's a base '06 CTS

http://i.imgur.com/9aVnE.jpg

Stingroo
05-22-11, 12:24 AM
All your base are belong to me.

cadillac kevin
05-22-11, 01:09 AM
Here's a base '06 330i loaner I had once.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4866305015_bbb4d2025c_o.jpg

Here's a base '06 CTS

http://i.imgur.com/9aVnE.jpg
the CTS looks ok except the center stack looks like someone took out the fancy radio/ climate control and put in junk out of a base level chevy. the mate black everywhere is not appealing- wheres the wood grain and chrome? the steering wheel buttons look like they were robbed off a super nintendo. the door panels look like they were designed by a cubist. the dash and doors look like rock hard plastic- definitely not even fitting for a base luxury car. I wouldn't call it junky but definitely cheap (and a bad design/ color scheme/ wrong choice of material surfaces). Overall, I think that interior would be more fitting for a base malibu than a base CTS.

the BMW interior screams junky to me. the dash top is the wrong color, as is the E brake handle (yellow and black interior is pretty poorly executed- looks like a junkyard mash up). the seats look like vinyl covered boards. the door speaker holes are covered by removable panels that look cheaper than the ones in my van. and wheres the drivers pull handle on the door? the passenger gets one but the driver doesn't? WTF.

If I had to pick one over the other, I'd pick the cadillac solely because the bmw seats don't look remotely comfortable. Granted I cant see the caddy seats , but they have to be better looking than those cheapo beemer seats

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-22-11, 10:15 AM
Aside from the fact that most low level BMW's have a leatherette versus the Cadillacs' real leather, in no way does the CTS's interior even compare to the 3-Series. BMW has always had a good tactic of mixing interior colors, to make it look richer (not financially, but rather from a color perspective) and warmer, especially on the cars with the grey or tan leather interior. The black dash top is great because it doesn't reflect anything onto the windshield on a sunny day, like a light colored dashboard does. The black steering wheel and shift lever is great too, because it won't show dirt as well as one that matched the lighter seat color. On the base 3 series, you get wood trim standard, but on the CTS, you have to order a package to get it, and it's not as extensively used or as well designed as the 3 series. Even the BMW has a better smell when you pop the door on a nice hot day.

The Raven
05-22-11, 12:15 PM
Here's a base '06 330i loaner I had once.

Here's a base '06 CTS

God I love when people do this. I can play that game too...

2007 CTS interior:
http://pdfresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2007-cadillac-cts-interior-image-view1.jpg

2007 328i interior:
http://pics.hoobly.com/full/V9E4FTKAJ7FTB4P2NP.jpg

How does it look now?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-22-11, 02:25 PM
I still prefer the 3 Series. The CTS's interior, especially the small "eggcrate" design of the air vents makes it look like something out of a Saab 9-3 or 9-5. I also prefer how the wood trim in the 3 Series wraps around the entire dashboard and onto the door panels, whereas the wood trim in the CTS just appears in blotches and is used very sparingly.

Fact of the matter is that I prefer the 3 Series interior. Now start comparing a CTS's interior to an '01-06 C-Class and you might sway me back to CTS-Ville, but not now.

The Raven
05-22-11, 03:02 PM
I still prefer the 3 Series. The CTS's interior, especially the small "eggcrate" design of the air vents makes it look like something out of a Saab 9-3 or 9-5. I also prefer how the wood trim in the 3 Series wraps around the entire dashboard and onto the door panels, whereas the wood trim in the CTS just appears in blotches and is used very sparingly.

Fact of the matter is that I prefer the 3 Series interior. Now start comparing a CTS's interior to an '01-06 C-Class and you might sway me back to CTS-Ville, but not now.

But again, I see alot of words like "I feel that...", "I prefer...", and these are all subjective evaluations, which mean pretty much nothing to anyone. I personally would take the CTS interior over ANY of the 3-series or C-Class cars. The number one factor that drew me to Cadillac over BMW and MB is Cadillac's interiors. "Feel" and "Appearance" are subjective, but layout and function are not. Spend a week daily driving a MB or BMW and come back and tell me that their interiors are more liveable than a CTS interior. If you say yes, you're lying.

Fact is that the CTS (yes even first gen) compares just fine OBJECTIVELY to the german makes. How it "looks" or "feels" is a matter of opinion and therefore useless. Materials quality is equivalent, in fact the CTS actually should get the nod here because it actually uses real leather, whereas BMW and MB do not. The CTS's layout is simpler and easier to utilize. Finally, as many have already admitted, it actually "feels" better than the C-class interior.

So really, there's no reason to complain about the CTS interior. I'm not going to try to say that it's factually the best, but I will assert that it compares just fine to it's competition.

Rodya234
05-22-11, 03:18 PM
Since there's no rating scale for layout and function, you almost have to go on "look and feel". There's no way to objectively compare an interior, its all based on perception and opinion. In the end, its all up to individual tastes.

billc83
05-22-11, 04:43 PM
I disagree completely. You clearly have not driven base-trim BMW's. Even the first generation base CTS was a nicer car inside and out than the base 3-series and C-class. The base MBs and BMW's are not impressive at all..

Those are all subjective statements, so these phrases should all begin with words like "I feel that..." and "I prefer..." Just because a phrase doesn't start with those words doesn't make it fact.


But again, I see alot of words like "I feel that...", "I prefer...", and these are all subjective evaluations, which mean pretty much nothing to anyone.

So by your own admission, your arguments are null and void.

Jesda
05-22-11, 05:19 PM
...and it would, as proven by MB, Audi, and VW, help me sell a crapload of POS cars. Enough in fact to support an entire company for decades.

I'm not arguing that it's "right". I'm simply arguing that it's true.

You are being obtuse and redundant.

A brand's golden reputation is built on a positive history. Its why, despite an entire decade of sharp decline, MB continued to sell its luxury cars, exotics, and SUVs without any trouble. One bad decade wasn't enough to damage a century of innovation and engineering. Reputation sold the cars.

There was, at one point, truth to the belief that Daimler-Benz built the best cars in the world. That's what reputations are built on.

And there was, at one point, truth to the builef that Hyundai built garbage. Its why the launch of the Genesis and Equus is hindered by brand image.


REPUTATION. It influences perceptions.

orconn
05-22-11, 05:45 PM
I am not sure of the "truth" of the idea that at one point Mercedes-Benz built the best cars in the world. Certainly some of the most complicated and over engineered cars in the world. But from long experience with Mercedes cars if reliability and overall value were concerned I have to issue the the "best cars in the world" being applied to Mercedes-Benz cars. But it does go to show that if you price your cars high enough and keep repeating the phrase most of the "sheeple" out there will come to believe the myth!

Jesda
05-22-11, 07:13 PM
MB's quality control seemed to peak in the early to mid 90s, and until Lexus came along and changed the whole game and established entirely new standards, I'd argue that the MBs that were in our family were some of the finest passenger cars ever made. Both have been W124. Not perfect, but stunning and dependable.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-22-11, 07:17 PM
Spend a week daily driving a MB or BMW and come back and tell me that their interiors are more liveable than a CTS interior. If you say yes, you're lying.

Once again, that's opinion, not fact. What makes one car "more livable" than another is entirely up to one's opinion. Maybe someone likes a softer seat in their car, so they'd like the Cadillac over the BMW, maybe someone prefers the iDrive to the traditional layout, that's gonna give the nod to the BMW.

Stingroo
05-22-11, 07:21 PM
You are being obtuse and redundant.

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/17/249/84355_512x288_generated__kWkZOVkyqUSR0kntoghc9g.jp g

Jesda
05-22-11, 07:42 PM
:rofl:

Stingroo
05-22-11, 07:48 PM
Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

The Raven
05-22-11, 08:44 PM
Those are all subjective statements, so these phrases should all begin with words like "I feel that..." and "I prefer..." Just because a phrase doesn't start with those words doesn't make it fact.

So by your own admission, your arguments are null and void.

Wow...you completely missed my entire point. No arguments are null or void. All arguments are valid unless they try to present undocumented opinion as fact. This is what I thought I was saying before. Somehow you missed that part I guess.


A brand's golden reputation is built on a positive history. Its why, despite an entire decade of sharp decline, MB continued to sell its luxury cars, exotics, and SUVs without any trouble. One bad decade wasn't enough to damage a century of innovation and engineering. Reputation sold the cars.

This is the way it SHOULD be. But it's just not. To illustrate:


There was, at one point, truth to the belief that Daimler-Benz built the best cars in the world. That's what reputations are built on.

When was this? As far as I know, MB has always built polished turds. I know this has been the case for the past twenty years, and as even MB enthusiasts will admit, was definitely the case in the 70's and 80's. So what are you trying to say here? That MB is just like Cadillac? Started out making great cars in the first half of the 20th century then built crap for the second half?


Once again, that's opinion, not fact. What makes one car "more livable" than another is entirely up to one's opinion. Maybe someone likes a softer seat in their car, so they'd like the Cadillac over the BMW, maybe someone prefers the iDrive to the traditional layout, that's gonna give the nod to the BMW.

Correct, so then you and I are in agreement, and just prefer different cars. Niether of us are wrong, but my point the whole time was that niether your opinion, nor mine, nor the rest of the world's make's one interior factually better than the other.

Jesda
05-22-11, 09:02 PM
Oh my god, its like talking to a wall. A wall that perceives itself as a purveyor of fact and all else as "belief and opinion."

gary88
05-22-11, 09:11 PM
Oh my god, its like talking to a wall. A wall that perceives itself as a purveyor of fact and all else as "belief and opinion."

http://i.imgur.com/icM7A.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-22-11, 09:58 PM
The circle has completed.

The Raven
05-22-11, 09:59 PM
Oh my god, its like talking to a wall. A wall that perceives itself as a purveyor of fact and all else as "belief and opinion."

Funny you should say that, since that's exactly what your last post (#107) made me think about you.

This is always the argument I get from frustrated guys who don't know what else to say. I have not presented my opinion as anything other than opinion, and I have made clear the separation between same and actual fact.

To summarize, the following is a super-oversimplification of my argument:

My opinion - the CTS has a better interior than the 3-series or C-class
Fact - the CTS's interior is not objectively inferior to the 3-series or C-class

That's it folks.

Stingroo
05-22-11, 10:07 PM
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/7255/tumblrkvo7wgtgvu1qae214.jpg

Jesda
05-22-11, 10:12 PM
Funny you should say that, since that's exactly what your last post (#107) made me think about you.

This is always the argument I get from frustrated guys who don't know what else to say. I have not presented my opinion as anything other than opinion, and I have made clear the separation between same and actual fact.

To summarize, the following is a super-oversimplification of my argument:

My opinion - the CTS has a better interior than the 3-series or C-class
Fact - the CTS's interior is not objectively inferior to the 3-series or C-class

That's it folks.
http://thatssofetch.com/images/facepalm2.jpg

Playdrv4me
05-23-11, 01:21 AM
God I love when people do this. I can play that game too...

2007 CTS interior:
http://pdfresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2007-cadillac-cts-interior-image-view1.jpg

2007 328i interior:
http://pics.hoobly.com/full/V9E4FTKAJ7FTB4P2NP.jpg

How does it look now?

Even worse!

Playdrv4me
05-23-11, 01:28 AM
Wow...you completely missed my entire point. No arguments are null or void. All arguments are valid unless they try to present undocumented opinion as fact. This is what I thought I was saying before. Somehow you missed that part I guess.



This is the way it SHOULD be. But it's just not. To illustrate:



When was this? As far as I know, MB has always built polished turds. I know this has been the case for the past twenty years, and as even MB enthusiasts will admit, was definitely the case in the 70's and 80's. So what are you trying to say here? That MB is just like Cadillac? Started out making great cars in the first half of the 20th century then built crap for the second half?



Correct, so then you and I are in agreement, and just prefer different cars. Niether of us are wrong, but my point the whole time was that niether your opinion, nor mine, nor the rest of the world's make's one interior factually better than the other.

http://ui08.gamespot.com/2119/doublefacepalm_2.jpg

ryannel2003
05-23-11, 03:29 AM
It's worse when you compare the RWD STS to the competition at the time. Outclassed in almost every way.

thebigjimsho
05-23-11, 04:36 PM
BMW has built the 3 series since it was supposed to take over for the innovative and beloved 2002 in 1975. The CTS has been built for 9 years. This thread can STFU!

The Raven
05-23-11, 05:35 PM
BMW has built the 3 series since it was supposed to take over for the innovative and beloved 2002 in 1975. The CTS has been built for 9 years. This thread can STFU!

Hey i'm not saying that I think the 1st gen CTS as a whole is a better car than the 3-series. Hell no. I'm of the same opinion as you, the 3-series is an established force that has proven itself for decades, and the CTS is still has a growing reputation, only on it's second iteration. I'm only talking about interiors here. That said, i've made my points and really have nothing else to say about it.

Playdrv4me
05-23-11, 08:56 PM
Hey i'm not saying that I think the 1st gen CTS as a whole is a better car than the 3-series. Hell no. I'm of the same opinion as you, the 3-series is an established force that has proven itself for decades, and the CTS is still has a growing reputation, only on it's second iteration. I'm only talking about interiors here. That said, i've made my points and really have nothing else to say about it.

Getting off topic for a moment... it is kind of bad ass that you live in a town called "Fleetwood".

/threadjack off

The Raven
05-23-11, 09:08 PM
Getting off topic for a moment... it is kind of bad ass that you live in a town called "Fleetwood".

/threadjack off

Yeah wouldn't you expect to see alot of Cadillacs here? You'd be very disappointed.

I do get all kinds of questions about where the old Cadillac factory was located though. :banghead:

Don't worry about threadjacking, this thread is lost at this point anyway.

orconn
05-23-11, 09:09 PM
Getting off topic for a moment... it is kind of bad ass that you live in a town called "Fleetwood".

/threadjack off

Actually "Fleetwood, PA" was the home of the Fleetwood Body Co., custom body builder, which GM purchased in 1931 to do the the bodies on their Cadillacs. It also became the name of Cadillac models Fleetwood 75, Sixty Special , etc.

thebigjimsho
05-24-11, 12:05 AM
Hey i'm not saying that I think the 1st gen CTS as a whole is a better car than the 3-series. Hell no. I'm of the same opinion as you, the 3-series is an established force that has proven itself for decades, and the CTS is still has a growing reputation, only on it's second iteration. I'm only talking about interiors here. That said, i've made my points and really have nothing else to say about it.
My comment supports you more than others. I own an '04 V and an '09. The 1st gen was a valid attempt and, in some ways, was better than the 3 series. And 5 series. The 2nd gen is much better in a lot of ways and worse in far fewer than before. Against both the 3 and 5 series.

Aron9000
05-24-11, 03:33 AM
The 1st gen CTS interior was a mix of Death Star control panels, early 1980's ATM, designer trash can plastics, and some left over zebrano wood trim from a 1999 Seville. I honestly preferred the cheap ass interior in my 1998 and 1999 Camaros over the CTS. The quality sucked, but the layout/design was pretty good. Also I never had any plastic part break in those cars, no buttons with peeling paint bs like the CTS.

I know Cadillac was trying to do something different with the CTS interior, but it just looks so horribly ugly and cheap IMO, even if the quality was halfway decent.


Getting back on topic, the reason Cadillac isn't considered on the same plane as BMW, Audi, Lexus, and Benz is their lack of a flagship sedan. I'd say this fault goes all the way back to 1976 and the 1st gen Seville. All of those other makes have made their largest car the best car you could buy from them outright, no arguments. The largest car had all the latest technology, the best fit and finish, the most horsepower, the most space.

Cadillac played the marked differently in 1976 and released a smaller car that was superior to its full size cars in driving dynamics, fit and finish, acceleration, and was more expensive. Since then, its always been this way in the land of Cadillac. A Deville or Fleetwood might be a much larger car, but you had to buy a smaller Seville, or later STS if you wanted all the latest technology and best fit/finish from Cadillac. This is bullshit IMO, that you had a larger car that was inferior to its smaller stablemate. Thus Cadillac has never really been able to compete with those flagship sedans since 1976, since its flushed all its resources into the Seville line, which is a size step smaller than an S class, 7 series, LS400, etc.

Jesda
05-24-11, 05:12 AM
The first-gen Seville was better positioned at its smaller size to compete with Mercedes-Benz, and the type of customer they were looking for would have appreciated its technology and smaller size.

Playdrv4me
05-24-11, 05:17 AM
I find there is some merit to Aron's points, since Infiniti is essentially in the identical boat right now and has very much the same product layout "feel".

Jesda
05-24-11, 08:16 PM
They sold three Q45s.

Destroyer
05-24-11, 08:42 PM
I'll tell you right now I love Cadillac, but certain aspects of the cars do not match Mercedes and BMW. Perception is the biggest. People still think these are old man cars.

Stigmatism's are hard to shake BUT it IS the old men that still usually buy them new. It has always been that way. The younger crowd that buys luxury cars would definitely go for a CTS-V, XLR or even an STS-V but that's it. Most of them buy Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Porsche (they are kinda luxury) or Lexus. Cadillacs have that bad stigmatism and a bad reputation to match. GM has simply forgotten what a Cadillac should be.

Playdrv4me
05-25-11, 05:05 AM
They sold three Q45s.

The first round were poorly marketed, and the second round were just downright ugly.

Stingroo
05-25-11, 09:24 AM
They sold three Q45s.

Didn't you own two of them?

Go find its long lost sibling and bring it back. :lol:

The Raven
05-25-11, 07:02 PM
Stigmatism's are hard to shake BUT it IS the old men that still usually buy them new. It has always been that way. The younger crowd that buys luxury cars would definitely go for a CTS-V, XLR or even an STS-V but that's it. Most of them buy Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Porsche (they are kinda luxury) or Lexus. Cadillacs have that bad stigmatism and a bad reputation to match. GM has simply forgotten what a Cadillac should be.

Actually, GM is CHANGING what Cadillac should be. I know alot of old guys don't like it, but there just is no demand for giant luxury barges anymore. Bentley and Rolls Royce make PLENTY of cars to cover the worldwide demand for that segment. If Cadillac is to survive, they must continue in the direction they are going. Like it or not, euro-premium is the new benchmark and as such, that is what is selling. This is proven by the fact that Cadillac is doing quite well right now with just the CTS. Not the the SRX is useless, but the CTS is carrying the brand until next year when the line starts expanding. The CTS is the jumping off point for all the future Cadillacs, and is a perfect example of exactly what Cadillac needs to be.

It's funny how on every other American car forum I visit, I see nothing but praise for Cadillac's newest offerings. I come to a Cadillac forum, and there's nothing but complaining.

ryannel2003
05-25-11, 07:15 PM
It's obvious you've never been to the GM forums then. If you think we're bad, you'll be in for a surprise when you visit them.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-25-11, 07:19 PM
I'm a bit distraught that all of the cars that I really like (large, RWD, V8 powered land yachts) are a dying breed, but I recognize that if Cadillac wants to exist, but not just to merely exist, but to thrive as well, they need to shoot for the european (BMW) benchmark and best it, and at a lower price.

HOWEVER, BMW has their 7 Series and Mercedes S Class and Cadillac has nothing.

Jesda
05-25-11, 07:36 PM
It's obvious you've never been to the GM forums then. If you think we're bad, you'll be in for a surprise when you visit them.

Those are fun. I had a UAW thug threaten me once.

Here at CF we just have poor grammar (lol), self-righteousness, and smug jerks (sup!).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-25-11, 07:43 PM
You should have told the UAW thug you know where Hoffas body is buried! That would pique his interest!

The Raven
05-25-11, 08:58 PM
It's obvious you've never been to the GM forums then. If you think we're bad, you'll be in for a surprise when you visit them.

Oh really? Which ones?

I've been a member of the following:

LS1.com (5 years)
LS1tech (8 years)
GPONA (4 years)
CorvetteForum (5 years)
GMInsideNews (4 years)
PerformanceTrucks.net (6 years)
ThirdGen (4 years)
LS1LT1.com (6 years)

These are the forums I was talking about when I said "every other car forum I visit". Sure there are old guys there too who are sour about the new Cadillac, but nothing like this place.

Every forum has poor grammar and smug jerks. :yup: One thing that seems to be missing here is the resident import fanboy. There's always at least one. I assumed i'd find a BMW or MB fanboy here that loves to stir shit up. Have I missed him or is there really no one like this here?

Stingroo
05-25-11, 09:05 PM
None in the regular members. :lol:

Destroyer
05-25-11, 10:04 PM
Actually, GM is CHANGING what Cadillac should be. I know alot of old guys don't like it, but there just is no demand for giant luxury barges anymore. That would explain the success of the Escalade right? Cadillac used to fill a niche but it doesn't now, it simply imitates other brands. Cadillac has this need to try to be like all the other cars but somehow always falls short. Keep the CTS, keep the STS, SRX, DTS or whatever but for gods sake, make a big ass, gawdy, chromed out monstrocity of a luxury car and give it a real name not this 3 letter thing they got going on. If Cadillac wants to imitate they should have a model to run against the S Class, Bentley and so forth. A cheap ass version of a 3 series BMW won't cut it.

The Raven
05-25-11, 11:13 PM
Cadillac used to fill a niche but it doesn't now, it simply imitates other brands.

Call it imitating, or call it building what sells. Whatever it is, it's what Cadillac must do to survive.


Cadillac has this need to try to be like all the other cars but somehow always falls short. Keep the CTS, keep the STS, SRX, DTS or whatever but for gods sake, make a big ass, gawdy, chromed out monstrocity of a luxury car and give it a real name not this 3 letter thing they got going on. If Cadillac wants to imitate they should have a model to run against the S Class, Bentley and so forth. A cheap ass version of a 3 series BMW won't cut it.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here but if you feel that the CTS and SRX are not good enough to compete with BMW, i've already noted that I completely disagree...and judging by sales of both vehicles, the buying public also disagrees with you.

Again, whether you like it or not, Cadillac is moving in the right direction. Sales success proves this. The ATS will slot in under the CTS, and the ZTS (or whatever they end up calling the omega platform variant) will move in above the CTS for a core line. There is no need nor any point in offering a huge luxo-barge reminiscient of old Cadillacs. It wouldn't sell in today's market. Even the XTS is unnecessary and will likely survive one generation, maybe even less.

Aron9000
05-26-11, 12:06 AM
Chrysler has proven that Americans still want a BIG, stylish, RWD sedan, with enough v8 thrust to give you whiplash.

I really can't see Cadillac going wrong by selling a RWD, 430hp LS3 powered sedan that's trimmed out real nice, handles decently(doesn't have to be awesome, but it should be infinetly better than a Town Car or other old land barge), has acres of space, and sells for 60-75k, aka Escalade money. When I say trimmed out nicely, something like a DTS Platinum or Escalade Platinum interior should be standard, and get nicer with more options.

GM has a platform and car to do this, the Australian Holden Statesman. It just needs a rework on the exterior design and a little more interior frosting to be a proper Cadillac. Everything else is there, people the world over have raved about these cars, from the luxurious Chinese only Buick Park Avenue to the wild hi-po V8 HSV Commodore models.

Only thing we get in the US is an ugly looking Pontiac version with the cheap base Commodore interior.

Jesda
05-26-11, 02:32 AM
The power of &. The fusion of compromise and fear.

gdwriter
05-26-11, 02:38 AM
I come to a Cadillac forum, and there's nothing but complaining.Depends on the section. There are plenty of people who like where Cadillac is heading, but the lounge has a much more general audience, including members who no longer own Cadillacs or who own/like the old luxo-barge Cadillacs. Except for the lost decade of the 80s, I like both kinds of Cadillacs.

gdwriter
05-26-11, 02:40 AM
One thing that seems to be missing here is the resident import fanboy. There's always at least one. I assumed i'd find a BMW or MB fanboy here that loves to stir shit up. Have I missed him or is there really no one like this here?There are. :shhh:

Aron9000
05-26-11, 03:07 AM
There are. :shhh:

Just saying there are a lot of Hyundia threads around here lately, like this one which was orignally about the Equus. Seems like its always the same person starting Hyundia threads too:duck:

ryannel2003
05-26-11, 03:25 AM
I was specifically talking about GM Inside News. Everytime I log on there is a thread discussing how terrible Cadillac is and that they should be ashamed for building vehicles that don't cater to people's need. Main complaint is FWD.

Stingroo
05-26-11, 10:23 AM
Just saying there are a lot of hyundai threads around here lately, like this one which was orignally about the Equus. Seems like its always the same person starting hyundai threads too:duck:

Don't worry. That person just bought a Lexus.

:nono:

Lord Cadillac
05-26-11, 02:35 PM
Gee. I'm sorry. I should have bought what you preferred. I'll check with you next time I'm ready for a new vehicle. I'm so stupid.


Don't worry. That person just bought a Lexus.

:nono:

drewsdeville
05-26-11, 02:43 PM
http://puntabulous.com/wp-content/lolkara.jpg

Stingroo
05-26-11, 02:45 PM
Gee. I'm sorry. I should have bought what you preferred. I'll check with you next time I'm ready for a new vehicle. I'm so stupid.

Sarcasm, yo.

Such uppity people here sometimes....

Lord Cadillac
05-26-11, 02:46 PM
When Hyundai is making the cars that many of us older (30s, 40s, 50s) guys want to see come from Cadillac, these topics need to be discussed. Cadillac needs to know that SOMEBODY out there wants cars like this. Or those of us who appreciate this type of thing can just shop elsewhere. I want what I want and I want it to have a Cadillac badge. I realize there's little chance of this happening any time soon. If I choose to remain quiet (as it seems you feel I should), there will be even less of a chance for a vehicle like this from Cadillac. I call out Cadillac on cars like the Genesis and the Equus because I want one from my favorite brand.


Just saying there are a lot of Hyundia threads around here lately, like this one which was orignally about the Equus. Seems like its always the same person starting Hyundia threads too:duck:

ben.gators
05-26-11, 03:03 PM
Lord Cadillac

You got a new car? So where is our pictures and review? :D Or it is somewhere around and I am missing it?!

Lord Cadillac
05-26-11, 03:45 PM
It's on Facebook. I don't want people coming on here seeing the Admin owning a non-Cadillac. Some people would take that as an indication that buying a Cadillac is a bad idea. I (more than anyone else) want to see Cadillac on top of the world. The last thing I want to do is give prospective buyers any indication that I don't feel Cadillac products are worth while. Cadillac has many great automobiles to choose from these days. They're simply not anything like the traditional vehicles I grew to love over the years. The DTS is the closest thing available - but it's underpowered (in my opinion) and I've grown to appreciate rear wheel drive vehicles.

The Cadillac I want will be available at some point in the future. I don't know when. I'm waiting...

drewsdeville
05-26-11, 03:52 PM
It's on Facebook. I don't want people coming on here seeing the Admin owning a non-Cadillac. Some people would take that as an indication that buying a Cadillac is a bad idea. I (more than anyone else) want to see Cadillac on top of the world. The last thing I want to do is give prospective buyers any indication that I don't feel Cadillac products are worth while. Cadillac has many great automobiles to choose from these days. They're simply not anything like the traditional vehicles I grew to love over the years. The DTS is the closest thing available - but it's underpowered (in my opinion) and I've grown to appreciate rear wheel drive vehicles.


Wait, what?

Rewording that: "Cadillac has many great models that meet the preferences of many, but they might overlook their own preferences because those cars don't meet mine."

Seriously?

You want to be brand loyal, but you are upset that you can't be, is that what's going on here? Do yourself a favor: forget the brand loyalty, just get what you like regardless of the badge on it (the Lexus?), and don't look back. If Cadillac isn't making the vehicle you like, then they aren't getting your money. No loss.

Enjoy your car and for what it is and what it offers you, not for what the badge says.

With respect, I thought you enjoy automobiles and run this forum for YOURSELF and those who share your interests, as a hobby, because you like it....not for the benefit of the GM corporation. To me, the fact that your emotion for GM causes you to filter casual automobile discussion (even something as big as a new car?) on your own board is astonishing. In your eyes, Lexus has a superior product, good for them. Those with similar preferences as yours will find that stuff out on their own anyway (as sales figures reflect), you won't save GM by hiding it. Inform those who share your interests.

Lord Cadillac
05-26-11, 03:54 PM
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Please elaborate...


Wait, what?

Rewording that: "Cadillac has many great models that meet the preferences of many, but they might overlook their own preferences because those cars don't meet mine."

Seriously?

If I understand what you mean...... I don't feel people are going to overlook their own preferences simply because I chose to buy something else.. What I feel people may do is take into consideration the fact that somebody who liked Cadillac enough to create a community at one point has decided to shop elsewhere.

If you don't think there are people out there who weigh my opinion on Cadillac more than others simply because I'm an Admin here, you're mistaken. It's silly - but it happens.


Enjoy your car and for what it is and what it offers you, not for what the badge says.

With respect, I thought you enjoy automobiles and run this forum for YOURSELF and those who share your interests, as a hobby, because you like it....not for the benefit of the GM corporation. To me, the fact that your emotion for GM causes you to filter casual automobile discussion (even something as big as a new car?) on your own board is astonishing. In your eyes, Lexus has a superior product, good for them. Those with similar preferences as yours will find that stuff out on their own anyway, you won't save GM by hiding it. Inform those who share your interests.

Somehow I don't feel right flaunting the purchase of another car make on a Cadillac forum. And that's what I feel it is. Flaunting. I don't go to a BMW forum and start a topic about my new Cadillac purchase either. That's just not the way I do things.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-26-11, 05:04 PM
and you deserve ALOT of credit for that. I realize im one of the ones who bitches most about other-brand discussion on a brand forum, but at the end of the day, its YOUR board, your money going into your time to maintain it etc etc.

the difference between you and the hypothetical guy you mention is that you DO like cadillac as a company and CONSTRUCTIVELY criticize the company and its products. You HAVE owned Cadillacs and even seriously wanted/considered a cadillac product. An example of the opposite type of person is people who buy ipad 2's and go to the Blackberry Playbook section of crackberry.com to say how much better than the playbook they think their ipad is.

Lord Cadillac
05-26-11, 05:39 PM
Thank you. I've owned the following Cadillacs in order:

1. 1980 Eldorado Biarritz
2. 1979 Eldorado
3. 1979 Sedan DeVille
4. 1995 Eldorado (ETC)
5. 1995 Fleetwood Brougham
6. 2000 DeVille (DTS)
7. 2005 Escalade ESV

I love Cadillacs. I hope to own another in the future. For now, I'll drive what *I* believe to be the closest thing to the type of Cadillac I appreciate.

I fully understand that Cadillac doesn't have the funds to bring to market the flagship that I want. I just want to make sure that when those funds to come to be, they know I (and others) are here, ready and willing to buy their product.

Stingroo
05-26-11, 05:41 PM
If your opinion holds that much water, wouldn't publicizing what you just bought make a statement to show what Cadillac SHOULD be building?

Maybe I'm not following your logic here. I don't know.

The Raven
05-26-11, 06:29 PM
Chrysler has proven that Americans still want a BIG, stylish, RWD sedan, with enough v8 thrust to give you whiplash.

I really can't see Cadillac going wrong by selling a RWD, 430hp LS3 powered sedan that's trimmed out real nice, handles decently(doesn't have to be awesome, but it should be infinetly better than a Town Car or other old land barge), has acres of space, and sells for 60-75k, aka Escalade money. When I say trimmed out nicely, something like a DTS Platinum or Escalade Platinum interior should be standard, and get nicer with more options.

GM has a platform and car to do this, the Australian Holden Statesman. It just needs a rework on the exterior design and a little more interior frosting to be a proper Cadillac. Everything else is there, people the world over have raved about these cars, from the luxurious Chinese only Buick Park Avenue to the wild hi-po V8 HSV Commodore models.

Only thing we get in the US is an ugly looking Pontiac version with the cheap base Commodore interior.

I want to make clear here that I have no doubt that Cadillac will, in the near future, offer a full-size RWD/AWD sedan to compete with the 7-series and S-class. That's part of building the core offerings that they need. What they should NOT offer is a full-size body-on-frame vehicle like a Town Car. This is what all these complaining old guys want...unfortunately the numbers of complaining old guys don't even amount to a speck on the radar screen of the buying public.

I'm all for a 7-series competitor, but i'm not complaining that it's missing. Those cars sell so few that most are money losers for a company. They exist to showcase the best a brand can do, and they attract new buyers to the brand. For that, they are worth it. But they cannot exist without the entry-level cars that sell like Lady Gaga CDs to provide funding for their development.

On that subject, we just have to be patient.

Jesda
05-26-11, 07:17 PM
What they should NOT offer is a full-size body-on-frame vehicle like a Town Car. This is what all these complaining old guys want...

I'm really not hearing much of that aside from nostalgia, and those folks are collectors and period-enthusiasts. The front-drive DTS is perfectly competent against a Town Car.

If you've been around, you'll see that what most members on this forum are benchmarking are the 7-series and S-class, leaders in the top-tier segment.

The Raven
05-26-11, 07:29 PM
I'm really not hearing much of that aside from nostalgia, and those folks are collectors and period-enthusiasts. The front-drive DTS is perfectly competent against a Town Car.

If you've been around, you'll see that what most members on this forum are benchmarking are the 7-series and S-class, leaders in the top-tier segment.

Yeah I understand that...but we can't really expect Cadillac to be able to release this car next year and have it be competitive. AND...you can't just say "well the STS is currently Cadillac's top-tier car so it should be compared to the 7-series and S-class". No way. You compare a car to what it was meant to compete with.

I'm inclined to believe the rumors about the large sedan coming around the 2015 timeframe, and that's fine with me. I'm not going to be in line to buy it though...I do love those big cars, but they don't make sense for me. I'll be in the CTS/5-series/E-class category for the foreseeable future. Unless kids aren't in the cards, then i'll be in here complaining that Cadillac has no SL competitor.

orconn
05-26-11, 07:33 PM
It seems to me that most of the "old fogies" here on the Forums are quite happy with their front wheel drive, unitary chassis Cadillacs. It is the younger sett that is all hung up on rear wheel drive and in some cases full frame construction. While I wouldn't presume to speak for other super annuated Cadillac owners ..... and drivers, I would think from the comments here on the forum that they are more concerned with the unattractive style of current Cadillacs as opposed to these cars performance attributes.

In my own case I am appalled at the ridiculous weight that cars have acquired over the past several years and the requisite number of horsepower necessary to get these heavy weights moving! It seems only Jaguar has made any appreciable progress in getting some of the weight out of their cars. I have always valued handling agility in the cars I have chosen to own, if it weren't for all the electronic correction systems employed in today's car they would be nothing but sloppy handling pigs.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-26-11, 07:36 PM
im just gonna come out and say it as i dont mean it in a bad way. CHAD (how do you like me calling you out hehe) is really the only person i can think of who is contantly saying he loves the old big body on frame cars that required a CDL license to park.

Dont get me wrong, i like/love these cars too but i like them because theyre old, the same reason some people will buy "vintage" anything, because if they still made them like that what would be the draw?

again chad, no offense meant, just friendly-ly callin you out

Jesda
05-26-11, 08:03 PM
Yeah I understand that...but we can't really expect Cadillac to be able to release this car next year and have it be competitive. AND...you can't just say "well the STS is currently Cadillac's top-tier car so it should be compared to the 7-series and S-class". No way. You compare a car to what it was meant to compete with.

Sure, but we've been having this discussion since 2003 when the Deville was Cadillac's best full size offering. There's always been this hole in the lineup.

Playdrv4me
05-27-11, 02:05 AM
I have to throw my hat into the "Sal should post his vehicle purchases" ring. So much quality discussion is missed by not doing so. And anyone who considers that flaunting of anything (which I assure you is few and far between) probably doesn't have a worthy opinion to give anyway.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-27-11, 02:10 AM
im just gonna come out and say it as i dont mean it in a bad way. CHAD (how do you like me calling you out hehe) is really the only person i can think of who is contantly saying he loves the old big body on frame cars that required a CDL license to park.

Dont get me wrong, i like/love these cars too but i like them because theyre old, the same reason some people will buy "vintage" anything, because if they still made them like that what would be the draw?

again chad, no offense meant, just friendly-ly callin you out

I'm going to ban you. :D


Those kinda cars are fun....as toys. As a daily driver? Hell no! I still really like the idea of owning one at some point, but is it the greatest style of car ever? No. If it was, they'd still be making them in droves.

But then again, the main appeal to them, as you say is the vintage look and feel of them, and if they still made them like that it wouldn't be as appealing. With that being said, I love classically styled things of any sort...houses that look original '70s vintage, big boxy cars, appliances & electronics that look '70s and '80s era, etc etc. For example, I've got a real nice brand new Hunter table fan on my dresser that's a polished aluminum and it looks like something from a lawyer's office in 1934. And I'm looking to get an old school Hamm's (a local brew, since moved to Milwaukee and owned by Miller) neon beer sign for my room. I'd love an old Marantz receiver and turntable to play my old school vinyls on. I like old collectibles!

With that being said, I don't give a shit that Sal bought a Lexus! It's his money, let him do what he wants with it! Remember, Cadillacowners.com isn't the only owners & enthusiasts site Sal owns... I know what kinda car Sal likes and the LS460 is the perfect fit.


Don't worry. That person just bought a Lexus.

:nono:

Coming from the man who owns a Chevrolet... Not exactly like I'm one to talk, but I'm not calling Sal out for buying something other than a Cadillac.

Jesda
05-27-11, 02:23 AM
I'm calling out Sal for owning cats.

I mean come on, cats are terrible.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-27-11, 02:26 AM
I've got two cats.

You wanna fight, *****? :)

Jesda
05-27-11, 02:29 AM
No, I'm just going to judge condescendingly and such.

Playdrv4me
05-27-11, 03:58 AM
Gang fight. Don't forget your party hats.

Playdrv4me
05-27-11, 03:59 AM
Now keep in mind I am not faulting Sal for his decision NOT to share his vehicles, I am stating very clearly that he should not feel conflicted about doing so.

Jesda
05-27-11, 04:01 AM
Speaking of non-Cadillac people, whatever happened to cvp33? He traded his V for an SRT8.

thebigjimsho
05-27-11, 01:13 PM
He loves guys now.

Jesda
05-27-11, 01:22 PM
Oh. In that case I hope he's enjoying his Forrester XT.

gdwriter
05-27-11, 01:29 PM
I thought it was lesbians who favored Subarus. They don't call them lesbarus for nothing.

Of course considering all the Subarus in Oregon and Vermont, you have to wonder about the gay population there.

thebigjimsho
05-27-11, 01:38 PM
Oh. In that case I hope he's enjoying his Forrester XT.
Hey! Knock it off...

Lord Cadillac
05-27-11, 05:43 PM
Blah.

The Raven
05-27-11, 06:43 PM
Blah.

I was looking at that pic for a full 30 seconds, and thinking...WOW nice houses, and how nice it would be to live among the palm trees and the beautiful weather. Then, all of a sudden, I realized...there's a car in this picture! Didn't even notice! :devilheh:

gary88
05-27-11, 07:59 PM
Pretty nice for a Toyota :shifty :cool2: :duck:

thebigjimsho
05-27-11, 09:02 PM
Do I still have to be a Platinum Supporter???

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-28-11, 12:10 AM
I thought it was lesbians who favored Subarus. They don't call them lesbarus for nothing.

Of course considering all the Subarus in Oregon and Vermont, you have to wonder about the gay population there.

From what I understand, the ghays moved from the Miatas to the Subarus because it's so much easier to bring everything home after a shopping spree at Bed Bath and Beyond. :lol:

orconn
05-28-11, 12:21 AM
From what I understand, the ghays moved from the Miatas to the Subarus because it's so much easier to bring everything home after a shopping spree at Bed Bath and Beyond. :lol:


Hmm! I wonder if Mazda knows that?

Stingroo
05-28-11, 12:35 AM
Of course they do:

http://www.topspeedphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mazda-cx-7-2.jpg

thebigjimsho
05-28-11, 01:12 PM
From what I understand, the ghays moved from the Miatas to the Subarus because it's so much easier to bring everything home after a shopping spree at Bed Bath and Beyond. :lol:
So I should probably not disclose that I'm going curtain shopping at Bed Bath and Beyond today...

V-Eight
05-28-11, 06:04 PM
Of course they do:

http://www.topspeedphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mazda-cx-7-2.jpg

I think the CXs are some of the better looking crossovers out there.

Stingroo
05-28-11, 08:04 PM
Ah but "better looking crossovers" is like saying you're cool with sleeping with the second ugliest person at the party, because she's not quite the ugliest.

Jesda
05-28-11, 08:09 PM
I'd drive a CX because its a Mazda, but I prefer the Enclave for style. Its genuinely beautiful.

Destroyer
05-28-11, 09:10 PM
Cadillac needs to know that SOMEBODY out there wants cars like this. Or those of us who appreciate this type of thing can just shop elsewhere. That's just it. There are many other choices now and they keep getting bigger. It's no longer a Cadillac vs Lincoln thing for prestige. It's all around us and Cadillac and Lincoln simply haven't been holding there own. At least Lincoln seems to be more comfortable with the shoes it's wearing.
:yup:

Jesda
05-28-11, 09:23 PM
Lincoln's shoes:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2192484002_f3e7db2fc0.jpg

Destroyer
05-28-11, 09:32 PM
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Please elaborate...



If I understand what you mean...... I don't feel people are going to overlook their own preferences simply because I chose to buy something else.. What I feel people may do is take into consideration the fact that somebody who liked Cadillac enough to create a community at one point has decided to shop elsewhere.

If you don't think there are people out there who weigh my opinion on Cadillac more than others simply because I'm an Admin here, you're mistaken. It's silly - but it happens.



Somehow I don't feel right flaunting the purchase of another car make on a Cadillac forum. And that's what I feel it is. Flaunting. I don't go to a BMW forum and start a topic about my new Cadillac purchase either. That's just not the way I do things.I don't think it would be "flaunting". I mean, people here are basically friends whether they have met in person or not and as "friends" and "enthusiasts" we'd like to see the car man:bonkers:. There are many of us who feel exactly like you do about Cadillac in that we want them to build cars we actually want again. Until they do, we will buy the older models we love or none at all. :cool2:

Stingroo
05-28-11, 09:42 PM
I wish I could like that post a million times.


I'd feel bad about giving you one million notifications, though... briefly.

Destroyer
05-28-11, 09:44 PM
I want to make clear here that I have no doubt that Cadillac will, in the near future, offer a full-size RWD/AWD sedan to compete with the 7-series and S-class. That's part of building the core offerings that they need. What they should NOT offer is a full-size body-on-frame vehicle like a Town Car. This is what all these complaining old guys want...unfortunately the numbers of complaining old guys don't even amount to a speck on the radar screen of the buying public.

I'm all for a 7-series competitor, but i'm not complaining that it's missing. Those cars sell so few that most are money losers for a company. They exist to showcase the best a brand can do, and they attract new buyers to the brand. For that, they are worth it. But they cannot exist without the entry-level cars that sell like Lady Gaga CDs to provide funding for their development.

On that subject, we just have to be patient.Problem here is, you don't know what a Cadillac should be. Period! Cadillac is GM. GM has entry level brands, we don't need another Cimarron. The current DTS should be the "entry level" and go up from there. A Caddy does not need to be as fast as a Mercedes or BMW or even handle as well. It DOES need to be more luxurious. It does need more than adequate power and handling but that need not be a priority and it does not need to beat MB or BMW in these categories. Cadillac needs to remember the audience that it catered to in the past for this will be the audience it caters to now and in the future.

thebigjimsho
05-28-11, 11:58 PM
I don't think it would be "flaunting". I mean, people here are basically friends whether they have met in person or not and as "friends" and "enthusiasts" we'd like to see the car man:bonkers:. There are many of us who feel exactly like you do about Cadillac in that we want them to build cars we actually want again. Until they do, we will buy the older models we love or none at all. :cool2:
You're right. They don't build any cars I want. Because I've already got the best American car ever made...

Stingroo
05-29-11, 12:14 AM
You're right. They don't build any cars I want. Because I've already got the best American car ever made...

You stole Jesda's Duesenberg?! You monster!

The Raven
05-29-11, 12:17 AM
Problem here is, you don't know what a Cadillac should be. Period!

...and neither do you. So lets leave it up to the people who are currently buying the cars ok?

An automotive brand is, in the end, what the buying public makes it.


The current DTS should be the "entry level" and go up from there. A Caddy does not need to be as fast as a Mercedes or BMW or even handle as well. It DOES need to be more luxurious. It does need more than adequate power and handling but that need not be a priority and it does not need to beat MB or BMW in these categories. Cadillac needs to remember the audience that it catered to in the past for this will be the audience it caters to now and in the future.

It's this kind of thinking, catering to this audience that you speak of, that brought Cadillac to the brink of extinction to begin with. They built the cars you want, and almost went out of business doing it. Now they are thriving, building what ACTUALLY SELLS, and you are complaining.

Clearly, you are not cut out for modern automotive design.

orconn
05-29-11, 12:35 AM
^^^ Hey, Destroyer has admired and now apparently happily owns a vintage (design) Jaguar! That fact speaks to his preference for classic design over contemporary "fad" design. I have to agree with him on this point and find contemporary car design boring, repetitive and lacking in style and beauty. While the driving dynamics of the "limited edition" sports sedans currently produced by the Germans and by Cadillac are truly impressive, being bodied in "tarted" up regular production bodies leaves a great deal to be desired, but there is not doubt these cars are highly desirable to the few that can afford them and desire the high level of (unusable) performance they offer.

thebigjimsho
05-29-11, 02:01 AM
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2241/2287429/22963540/389841329.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/rdp0258.jpg/

thebigjimsho
05-29-11, 02:17 AM
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2241/2287429/22963540/392797841.jpg

Jesda
05-29-11, 02:38 AM
http://www.freshgearz.com/.template/freshgearz/current/mycontent/50_Cent_G_Unit_Black_Shirt.jpg

Playdrv4me
05-29-11, 03:38 AM
^knew that was coming

The Raven
05-29-11, 12:05 PM
...That fact speaks to his preference for classic design over contemporary "fad" design. I have to agree with him on this point and find contemporary car design boring, repetitive and lacking in style and beauty. While the driving dynamics of the "limited edition" sports sedans currently produced by the Germans and by Cadillac are truly impressive, being bodied in "tarted" up regular production bodies leaves a great deal to be desired...

On the design comment, i'm going to respectfully call "bullshit". The above kind of opinion is one often given by those who are sour over the current design direction. There is nothing "fad" about it. It's Cadillac's new direction, and it's working very well for them. People who try to act like they are above this new "popular fad" come off sounding childish. It's one thing to just not like the design theme of a car line, god knows there are plenty that I can't stand *ahem*toyota and honda*ahem*, but to call it a fad or try to act like there's something fundamentally wrong with it to justify one's dislike for it is unnecessary. This is a free country and as such, we are well within our rights to like or dislike anything without justification. I've hated Mercedes-Benz designs until just this latest iteration (where they ditched the four headlight configuration), but I wouldn't say it was poor design at all, I just thought it was ugly, period. Conversely, I think Cadillac's new direction makes for some of THE BEST looking cars on the road. Thus the reason I now own two examples. I don't love Cadillacs because I own them, I own them because I love them.

Though I will say that I still really like the styling of the last FWD Seville. It was a very handsome car, with the exception of the cheap-feeling interior. So there are some points that I do agree with you on.

This is nothing personal against you or Destroyer...it's just that this is the same thing as having a dissenting opinion literally for the sake of having a dissenting opinion...and it annoys the crap out of me when people do that.

Stingroo
05-29-11, 01:22 PM
"It's like disagreeing with The Raven... and it annoys the crap out of The Raven when people do that."


:yawn:

cadillac kevin
05-29-11, 01:30 PM
On the design comment, i'm going to respectfully call "bullshit". The above kind of opinion is one often given by those who are sour over the current design direction. There is nothing "fad" about it. It's Cadillac's new direction, and it's working very well for them. People who try to act like they are above this new "popular fad" come off sounding childish...
couldnt the same be said of you? you seem to like defending your opinion of newer cadillacs design superiority to the death. their designs arent that great- especially when compared with their iconic designs of the late 40's- 70's. and like it or not, sooner or later cadillac will make a large rwd sedan (probably not body on frame though). once they get their act together, they will need something to compete with the 7 series and the super expensive mercedes and the like (i.e. a flagship- much like the fwb of the past). all cadillac has now is a rebadged suburban, a reskinned equinox, and a mid size sedan- none of those are anything close to a flagship.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-29-11, 01:32 PM
Thank you Ray and Kevin.

thebigjimsho
05-29-11, 02:42 PM
their designs arent that great- especially when compared with their iconic designs of the late 40's- 70's.
Of course you can have an opinion. Of course, I think this one sucks.

cadillac kevin
05-29-11, 02:57 PM
Of course you can have an opinion. Of course, I think this one sucks.

My opinion is that your opinion of my opinion sucks. so there :P

thebigjimsho
05-29-11, 03:07 PM
That opinion sucks like a trillion times worse than mine. nah nah.

The Raven
05-29-11, 03:47 PM
couldnt the same be said of you?

Reasonable query...but I say no, and here's why:

There is a major difference between my opinions and the opinions that I was complaining about. I make clear that what I am saying is how I feel about something, not how something "is". I tell you, that "in my opinion, the CTS's interior is better than the competition", or "I think Cadillac's new design direction has resulted in some of the best looking cars on the road" or, "I feel that Cadillac is doing the right thing by moving away from land barges and towards euro-premium style cars", ...etc. Then folks reply to me with comments like: "your wrong, the 3-series interior is just better than the CTS, period", or "no, Cadillac's new design direction is fundamentally unattractive" (as if something can be factually unattractive to begin with), or "Cadillac needs to build big, slow, land barges with la-z-boy recliners to be successful". So really, I am the last person here who should be accused of acting like my opinion is gospel.


you seem to like defending your opinion of newer cadillacs design superiority to the death.

That might be exaggerating a bit, but I do love a good debate.


their designs arent that great- especially when compared with their iconic designs of the late 40's- 70's.

Ah...and you do it too. See that? The above is your opinion, but you present it as fact...just as so many others have too. I disagree with the above statement...while I do really like the old 50's and 60's Cadillacs and Lincolns, I prefer the newer styling, even when examined on styling-specific merits.


and like it or not, sooner or later cadillac will make a large rwd sedan (probably not body on frame though). once they get their act together, they will need something to compete with the 7 series and the super expensive mercedes and the like (i.e. a flagship- much like the fwb of the past). all cadillac has now is a rebadged suburban, a reskinned equinox, and a mid size sedan- none of those are anything close to a flagship.

I think I need to re-iterate a previous point because it appears that I was misunderstood. I am all for a big RWD sedan...abso-frikin-lutely. However, I am NOT for another DTS, or a return to the Fleetwood or anything like that. It needs to follow the same guidelines that the ATS and CTS will, and it needs to at the very least match BMW and MB, preferably exceed. Another DTS-style luxo-barge will be a disaster.

Stingroo
05-29-11, 04:09 PM
I think you need to remember that this is a FORUM. There's this funny thing about the Internet:

Anyone said by anyone on any forum anywhere is automatically understood to be that person's opinion. Unless you work for GM (you don't), design cars (you don't), or own your own car company (again, you don't), your post is just as much opinion as mine, orconn, Destroyer, Kevin, or anyone else. You're debating with yourself because you think everyone else is out to get you, when all that's happening is that different people are (now, before I type this, make sure you're sitting down because it's going to rock your world)... are having different opinions of what Cadillac should and shouldn't be.


Holy shit. I can't believe I just had to spell that out.

The Raven
05-29-11, 04:13 PM
Holy shit. I can't believe I just had to spell that out.

You didn't actually, you just wasted your own time.

At least not for me...i'm not the one complaining. If you recall, I was confronted about my opinions being presented as fact and I simply noted in retort that I have presented all my opinions as nothing but opinions, and if anything, it has been other members of this discussion that have been presenting opinion as fact.

So, as you can see now, I am the one having to spell out things that I shouldn't have to.

gary88
05-29-11, 04:15 PM
when all that's happening is that different people are (now, before I type this, make sure you're sitting down because it's going to rock your world)... are having different opinions of what Cadillac should and shouldn't be.


I wasn't sitting down when I read this.






















http://i.imgur.com/oQFOv.jpg

Stingroo
05-29-11, 04:16 PM
That's why Captain America died.

Just sayin'.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-30-11, 11:57 AM
Ah but "better looking crossovers" is like saying you're cool with sleeping with the second ugliest person at the party, because she's not quite the ugliest.


my other car is a crossover :(

Stingroo
05-30-11, 12:42 PM
It gets a pass because it at least has the right number of cylinders.

thebigjimsho
05-30-11, 01:11 PM
My other car is a Lincoln.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-30-11, 01:13 PM
my other other car is a saturn...wagon

(its in the name sting so no hating) saturn SW,

thebigjimsho
05-30-11, 01:17 PM
Roo is full of Poo when it comes to wagon categorization...

gdwriter
05-30-11, 06:37 PM
Unless it's a CTS-V SportWagon or a 455-powered Vista Cruiser, not interested. Sorry Roo.

Well, I might add a 455-powered Estate Wagon, Grand Safari or Custom Cruiser with the disappearing tailgate. Those are pretty cool.

thebigjimsho
05-30-11, 07:32 PM
hmm...

gary88
05-30-11, 10:20 PM
p00p

drewsdeville
05-30-11, 11:36 PM
Unless it's a CTS-V SportWagon or a 455-powered Vista Cruiser, not interested. Sorry Roo.

:yeah:

Make my Vista Cruiser a 1972.

Destroyer
05-30-11, 11:53 PM
You're right. They don't build any cars I want. Because I've already got the best American car ever made...
Ok, I do want a new CTS-V. I love Chevrolac's. :thumbsup:

thebigjimsho
05-31-11, 12:00 AM
p00p.

The Tony Show
05-31-11, 06:31 PM
Ok, I do want a new CTS-V. I love Chevrolac's. :thumbsup:

I don't get it. If you're trying to say that the CTS-V shares a platform with Chevy, it doesn't. :hmm:

gdwriter
05-31-11, 07:05 PM
An engine, yes. And considering it's one of the best engines in the world -- even if you're an anti-pushrod snob -- there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not like you see that engine in an Impala. The Corvette is GM's performance flagship, regardless of the Chevrolet badge.

OffThaHorseCEO
05-31-11, 07:19 PM
labelin him an anything snob implies you think there IS something wrong with that

thebigjimsho
05-31-11, 08:16 PM
p00p.

Stingroo
05-31-11, 08:17 PM
f3c4l matter?

thebigjimsho
05-31-11, 08:18 PM
Indeed.

gdwriter
05-31-11, 10:21 PM
There are a lot of car enthusiasts who look down their noses at pushrods. The tone of Nick's post implied he's one of them. If that's not the case, and you're offended Nick, my apologies. No offense intended.

Destroyer
05-31-11, 10:35 PM
An engine, yes. And considering it's one of the best engines in the world -- even if you're an anti-pushrod snob -- there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not like you see that engine in an Impala. The Corvette is GM's performance flagship, regardless of the Chevrolet badge.I love pushrod motors. I called it a Chevrolac BECAUSE it has a Chevy motor and I mean it as a compliment. I wish Cadillac would have always used Chevy motors with RWD. Think about it. A '98 STS RWD with an LS1 and 6 speed, hmm.........would that not have been better? How about a '94 Eldorado with an LT1 and RWD? The list goes on. Cadillac car + Chevy drive train = WIN! :cool2:

ben.gators
05-31-11, 11:00 PM
^
I never have owned a car with LS1 engine. However I am guessing its NVH shouldn't be as good as N*. If LS1 engine is going to be noisy and harsh I prefer to keep my N*, thank you! So far I have had no problem with my engine and it had served me well and I am pretty happy with it!

LS1 should be wonderful engine for an sport car, not for a luxury sedan!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-31-11, 11:15 PM
I don't think that the LS1 is any more noisy, vibration prone or harsh than the Northstar. Granted, the Northstar is an incredibly smooth engine, but it's not like the LS1 is a Quad 4 (a very clunky, noisy engine).

The LS series engine works beautifully in a Pontiac G8 GT (a guy I knew bought one a few months back and I rode in it once)....very powerful, very fast and smooth, quiet until you open it up!

thebigjimsho
05-31-11, 11:42 PM
^
I never have owned a car with LS1 engine. However I am guessing its NVH shouldn't be as good as N*. If LS1 engine is going to be noisy and harsh I prefer to keep my N*, thank you! So far I have had no problem with my engine and it had served me well and I am pretty happy with it!

LS1 should be wonderful engine for an sport car, not for a luxury sedan!

I disagree. The LS motors can be just as quiet, if not moreso, than the N*. I think it could be a great application in a luxury car with the proper engineering...

ben.gators
05-31-11, 11:58 PM
^
I believe your have an LS engine in your V. So you have a much better idea about these engines than I have. I have heard that V series are not as smooth as other Cadillacs, if this is true what is the reason? Engine or suspension?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-01-11, 12:02 AM
Suspension....totally suspension.

ryannel2003
06-01-11, 12:32 AM
Northstar's aren't that great. Some of them idle smoother than butter, and others are mildly rough. Mine has never been smooth at all, and I've done everything possible to try and fix that. They're a pain in the ass and if I had the choice I would have preferred a simpler, more reliable pushrod myself. My grandfather's '06 Impala SS has an LS4 that has more power, is smoother, and has a better sounding exhaust than any FWD Northstar I've ever driven.

ben.gators
06-01-11, 12:42 AM
Suspension....totally suspension.

hum, I think CTS-V and 2002.5,2003 STS share the same Delphi magnetic ride suspension. So in this condition STS 2003 should be as harsh as CTS-V.

orconn
06-01-11, 12:47 AM
Northstar's aren't that great. Some of them idle smoother than butter, and others are mildly rough. Mine has never been smooth at all, and I've done everything possible to try and fix that. They're a pain in the ass and if I had the choice I would have preferred a simpler, more reliable pushrod myself. My grandfather's '06 Impala SS has an LS4 that has more power, is smoother, and has a better sounding exhaust than any FWD Northstar I've ever driven.

The old tech is better! Bring back the straight 6 and 8, now that's smooth!

77CDV
06-01-11, 12:51 AM
^Crankshaft flex, yay!!!!

cadillac kevin
06-01-11, 01:05 AM
my dad had a buick apollo with a 250 straight 6. quiet at idle and had lots of torque for the lack of any semblance of technology that was put into it (tiny 1bbl carb, 1974 emissions system). it did not require any effort for it to move. put it in drive and it would do the speed limit with no pedal input. plus it was faster than a tempo.

Destroyer
06-01-11, 09:24 AM
If Cadillac had went with RWD and Lt1/LS motors I would definitely, without any doubt have an STS or 2 in my household. :thumbsup:

Stingroo
06-01-11, 09:34 AM
You could get RWD and an LT1 in a Cadillac - buy a FWB. :)

Joke I heard, made me giggle:

You know why they call it the Northstar?

It'll lead you straight to the repair shop.

The Tony Show
06-01-11, 10:33 AM
:rimshot:

thebigjimsho
06-01-11, 01:23 PM
I thought both of my Vs were incredibly smooth as stock. Of course, by the time I was done with my '04, it was riding on racing shocks, 700lb springs and had full exhaust including headers w/o cats...