: How is Cadillac going to work this out with pricing in a few years?!



Lord Cadillac
04-27-11, 01:15 AM
Currently:

CTS - $35k
STS - $47k
DTS - $46k

Before I even go on... How does the STS start at more than the DTS? Is that not ass backwards?!

Anyway.. When the ATS comes out and pushes the CTS into the STS's territory and the XTS replaces the DTS - there's going to be some prices changing...

So the ATS is going to be the new entry-level Cadillac - probably starting at around $35k.. Right? The CTS is going to move into STS territory and bump it's starting price to $47k? Or is the ATS going to be cheaper than the current entry-level CTS and become a real econoCaddy? Can the CTS go from starting at $35k to $47k? Probably not. Right? How is this going to work?

Wouldn't Cadillac be able to charge at least the same for a third generation CTS that's a little bit smaller than the current model - but easily charge $10k more for the "CTS" by simply replacing the "C" with an "S"?

I guess it's not a bad idea to change the name of the DTS to XTS because if the full-size DTS can't even manage to start at the same level or more as Cadillac's mid-size sedan - something is wrong. So dump DTS and start charging a little more, I suppose..

All I know is Cadillac is going to have a hard time charging STS money for the third generation CTS. I really think Cadillac should leave the CTS and STS names alone... Any thoughts?

drewsdeville
04-27-11, 01:27 AM
Currently:

CTS - $35k
STS - $47k
DTS - $46k

Before I even go on... How does the STS start at more than the DTS? Is that not ass backwards?

I guess it's not a bad idea to change the name of the DTS to XTS because if the full-size DTS can't even manage to start at the same level or more as Cadillac's mid-size sedan - something is wrong. So dump DTS and start charging a little more, I suppose..


If I recall correctly, it's been like that for decades (if you substitute "Seville" for "STS" and "Deville" for "DTS"). The larger Deville and DTS were never the high-end names, while the smaller Seville has been for quite some time. What makes you think it's different now? Size dictates price?

Here's a comparison for 1990 Cadillacs. The same trend exists in both previous and later years.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/cadillac/cad1990/cad90.htm

Lord Cadillac
04-27-11, 01:31 AM
I never noticed. Does it make any sense? What other manufacturer works this way?

Stingroo
04-27-11, 01:31 AM
Wasn't the original 1976 Seville the most expensive Cadillac that year as well?

ben.gators
04-27-11, 01:36 AM
The problem with STS is it was already overpriced. The MSRP for a fairly loaded STS with V-8 engine used to be near to 60k$. Yeah, I know V-8 is discontinued, I am speaking about 2010. But I know dealerships that were selling brand new STS for 10k$ below MSRP! This unrealistic pricing policy is partially in charge of the problem you described.

Overall, I see your point.... People used to buy CTS for less than 40K$, and I am sure potential customers of CTS will not be very happy with jacking up the price of new generation CTS.

ben.gators
04-27-11, 01:40 AM
I never noticed. Does it make any sense? What other manufacturer works this way?

I guess so... In comparison to 99 Deville, my Seville STS comes with more expensive suspension system, CVRSS system, standard Bose radio,....
Seville STS is the technology flagship of Cadillac and gets more goodies than Deville does.

drewsdeville
04-27-11, 01:41 AM
I think it makes sense. Seville was always the most technologically advanced Cadillac, even usually receiving updates first.

Think about it: Using more recent examples, think about the differences between Deville and Seville in 1986 and again in 1992. While many don't find the 1986's styling to be "Cadillac", the Seville was far superior with it's more modern/advanced suspension design and electronic gadgetry. In 1992, Deville was still the same old C-body with an interior dating from '86 (which was already showing it's age in 1987), while the 1992 Seville was an impressive revolution, both mechanically and technologically.

Todays DTS is no exception. Yeah, it's bigger than the STS, and that's all it's got. It's simple, very dated, and bland in comparison.

EDIT: Ben got it

Lord Cadillac
04-27-11, 01:57 AM
I understand what you guys are saying but here I am hoping for a premium full-size luxury sedan "flagship" - and why?! Has Cadillac ever had one?

ben.gators
04-27-11, 02:14 AM
^
Well, most of the models built by Cadillac used to be premium full-size luxury sedan..... It is about a decade that Cadillac has stopped following its historical trend and has started to build mid-sized cars like CTS, Crossovers, and SUVs... Don't get me wrong, indeed that is wonderful that Cadillac has expanded its market scope, but as you said it is awhile that Cadillac has forgot to build the cars that it is supposed to build...

Anyway, among those premium full-size luxury sedans, Seville was the car with more advanced technology and that is why it used to be more expensive than a Deville...

gothicaleigh
04-27-11, 10:10 AM
I understand what you guys are saying but here I am hoping for a premium full-size luxury sedan "flagship" - and why?! Has Cadillac ever had one?

There was that Cadillac V16 back in the 30s... :p

...but no, the DeVille has never been the 'flagship' that I am aware of. It's always been upstaged by the Eldorados and Sevilles.

Stingroo
04-27-11, 10:25 AM
There was that Cadillac V16 back in the 30s... :p

...but no, the DeVille has never been the 'flagship' that I am aware of. It's always been upstaged by the Eldorados and Sevilles.

This.

The Deville really has been the quintessential old peopley Cadillac since... forever.

Cadillac Tony
04-27-11, 10:56 AM
You're looking at base prices, which is something people commonly confuse themselves by doing. I see people freaking out all the time and claiming that a base Escalade Hybrid is $15,000 more than a regular Escalade, but without factoring in that a "base" Hybrid has the same equipment as an Escalade Premium Collection (side blind zone, rear DVDs, intellibeam, 22" wheels)-not a base model. Taking that into account the Hybrid is only $3,500 more than a comparably equipped all gas Escalade, and the same logic applies to the STS/DTS.

Yes, an STS has (had?) a higher "base" price than a DTS, but that's because it came with a ton of standard equipment that was optional on a DTS- rear parking sensors, push button start, power tilt/telescope steering wheel, EZ-Key and more. If you compare equally equipped cars (DTS Premium vs. STS Premium) the prices are close to identical. And besides, as mentioned already, the STS has always been the more expensive Cadillac over its larger Deville/DTS brothers in the past anyway. Features like ZF steering, performance cooling, monoblock calipers, 19" wheels, headlight washers and others are not available for any price on the DTS.

As far as the future goes, I don't see the CTS just having $10k slapped on the price because it's no longer then entry model, nor will Cadillac ever change the name to STS. The CTS name has a ton of brand equity, while STS has ZERO. The problem up until now is that even though the CTS is the same size as an E-Class and 5-series, Cadillac has had to offer a trim level that's priced comparably to the C-Class and 3-series to have price equity with the competition. Once the ATS gets here I believe Cadillac will eliminate the "stripper" model CTS we currently have and make options like wood trim, parking camera, memory and dual power seats standard on the CTS. That should bring the base price up to around $42,000, because the ATS will now be there for people looking for a Cadillac in the $30s. The size of the lineup will more accurately compare with the foreign competitors, but still maintain a healthy price advantage over them. Here's my prediction:

ATS: Base $35k, Mid range $40k, Loaded $45k
CTS: Base $42k, Mid range $47k, Loaded $52k
XTS: Base $45k, Mid range $50k Loaded $55k

Lord Cadillac
04-27-11, 05:45 PM
There was that Cadillac V16 back in the 30s... :p

...but no, the DeVille has never been the 'flagship' that I am aware of. It's always been upstaged by the Eldorados and Sevilles.


This.

The Deville really has been the quintessential old peopley Cadillac since... forever.

I thought the Fleetwood was technically the flagship but I do realize the Seville was always one up on it technology-wise.. Still, I thought the DeVille more or less took over for the Fleetwood when it was canceled.


You're looking at base prices, which is something people commonly confuse themselves by doing. I see people freaking out all the time and claiming that a base Escalade Hybrid is $15,000 more than a regular Escalade, but without factoring in that a "base" Hybrid has the same equipment as an Escalade Premium Collection (side blind zone, rear DVDs, intellibeam, 22" wheels)-not a base model. Taking that into account the Hybrid is only $3,500 more than a comparably equipped all gas Escalade, and the same logic applies to the STS/DTS.

Yes, an STS has (had?) a higher "base" price than a DTS, but that's because it came with a ton of standard equipment that was optional on a DTS- rear parking sensors, push button start, power tilt/telescope steering wheel, EZ-Key and more. If you compare equally equipped cars (DTS Premium vs. STS Premium) the prices are close to identical. And besides, as mentioned already, the STS has always been the more expensive Cadillac over its larger Deville/DTS brothers in the past anyway. Features like ZF steering, performance cooling, monoblock calipers, 19" wheels, headlight washers and others are not available for any price on the DTS.

As far as the future goes, I don't see the CTS just having $10k slapped on the price because it's no longer then entry model, nor will Cadillac ever change the name to STS. The CTS name has a ton of brand equity, while STS has ZERO. The problem up until now is that even though the CTS is the same size as an E-Class and 5-series, Cadillac has had to offer a trim level that's priced comparably to the C-Class and 3-series to have price equity with the competition. Once the ATS gets here I believe Cadillac will eliminate the "stripper" model CTS we currently have and make options like wood trim, parking camera, memory and dual power seats standard on the CTS. That should bring the base price up to around $42,000, because the ATS will now be there for people looking for a Cadillac in the $30s. The size of the lineup will more accurately compare with the foreign competitors, but still maintain a healthy price advantage over them. Here's my prediction:

ATS: Base $35k, Mid range $40k, Loaded $45k
CTS: Base $42k, Mid range $47k, Loaded $52k
XTS: Base $45k, Mid range $50k Loaded $55k

Those price predictions look pretty good.. And with more standard features, it shouldn't be too difficult to swallow a price increase on the CTS..

In any event, I'd never want to lose the CTS name. I just think the ATS should never come at all - and the CTS should be the name of the new entry-level while the planned, larger CTS simply gets the STS name.. Though if the STS name is really tarnished (after just one generation?), than I suppose it's not a bad idea to get rid of it.. But, really - just one generation and they're giving up on Seville/STS?

drewsdeville
04-27-11, 06:44 PM
I think it's a bad idea to let size dictate class.

Cadillac Tony
04-27-11, 06:51 PM
Whether it's fair or not, the STS hasn't had a great reputation in the last decade. The people buying a BMW 5 series or Mercedes E Class have two preconceived notions about the STS- either the FWD car that tried and failed to compete with the Germans, or the RWD model that was overpriced and had very poor resale value. If Cadillac were to re-brand the new entry car as CTS and call the next step up STS, magazine articles would most surely spend tons of time talking about the failed STS that came before it, polluting the discussion with negative history instead of focusing on the new product itself.

Besides, it isn't like the STS name has been around that long. "Seville" yes, but not "STS". Cadillac already killed the Seville and Deville names back in 2005 when they went alphanumeric anyway, as anyone from Cadillac will tell you that the letters don't stand for Seville Touring Sedan or Deville Touring Sedan anymore- it's just an STS or DTS. I don't particularly like it either, but to most high-line buyers today (not people on here that are fans of the classics), Cadillac's "good history" consists of the successful cars of the past few years. Names like STS, Fleetwood or Brougham have no appeal, history or allure to the mainstream, and the mainstream is who buys new cars.

Cadillac is on a roll lately, with soaring sales on the SRX and CTS family and image awards from KBB.com for interior and exterior styling, so this is a great time to introduce something all new in size, price and name.

drewsdeville
04-27-11, 06:54 PM
... this is a great time to introduce something all new in size, price and name.

This is something I mentioned last fall, but got a lot of resistance here.

Destroyer
04-28-11, 07:19 PM
If I recall correctly, it's been like that for decades (if you substitute "Seville" for "STS" and "Deville" for "DTS"). The larger Deville and DTS were never the high-end names, while the smaller Seville has been for quite some time. What makes you think it's different now? Size dictates price?

Here's a comparison for 1990 Cadillacs. The same trend exists in both previous and later years.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/cadillac/cad1990/cad90.htmHard to believe the Allante was almost $60k in '90 but it was. I drove several Allante's and remember many squeaks, rattles and generally poor quality. Oh well. :cookoo:

77CDV
04-28-11, 10:01 PM
This.

The Deville really has been the quintessential old peopley Cadillac since... forever.

Well, maybe since about the 1970s, anyway. When the Deville name was first introduced in 1949, it was on a sylish, highly sought-after car. Then it became Cadillac's "family car", especially after the Series 62/Calais went away. It was the Fleetwoods that were the "old man's car". And the Seville was always the most expensive standard Cadillac from it's introduction, apart from the Series 75s.

hueterm
04-28-11, 10:59 PM
I'm glad the XTS isn't going to be named DTS -- since I have one, and would rather the name go out on a high note. The XTS should be named F(ail)TS, since there isn't a V8...

I have a 5 year loan and a 5/75 Major Guard on my Platinum -- and will likely put relatively few miles on it. I've had it 2 months and have barely put 1500 miles on it -- and 700 of that was getting back from Chicago.

So barring its early end, I'll likely be out of the Cadillac car market for a while. A 2010 or 2011 DTS Platinum will be out of factory warranty by then...and almost out of CPO.

SO -- I guess I'll end up in the HTS...Hyundai Touring Sedan...I'm betting they'll still have a V8, even in 2016. And if not, there's always Lexus...

But dig aside, if Cadillac doesn't keep a minimal $10K gap between it and MB/BMW/Lexus -- they're going to have a hard row to hoe. I'm afraid Hyundai is going to have that problem w/the Equus vs. LS fight...

drewsdeville
04-28-11, 11:10 PM
No offense, but why do you say that the DTS is going out on a high note? On it's exit, it will have been LONG overdue for a significant update being based on the 20 year old k-body (albeit, updated over the years) with a drivetrain that doesn't perform any better than the one introduced in '93, and it is a popular vehicle for fleet service (doesn't help it's image), and looks stodgy sitting in the dark corner of the showroom floor among all of the other flashy Cadillac models under the lights.

It's a nice car, a great value when purchased used, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the name is going out on a high note. The DTS is going to disappear and no one is going to notice.

hueterm
04-29-11, 12:04 AM
It's big, bold, and in your face. The base interior is nice, while the Platinum interior is outstanding. It has plenty of power for 95% of the driving I'll ever do -- and a still incredible engine note. The ride is like glass, but I can take a twisty 2 lane at 50 MPH with very little body roll, thanks to MRC.

I can pick up three grown men from the airport, with luggage and briefcases -- or drive to a lunch meeting -- to RAVE reviews. And no one has to compromise, or get "stuck" in the back (where there is also heat, lumbar, adjustable headrests in the seats, rear climate control, and power rear sunshade). Although, they do lack the cooling and massage found in the front seats...

What really needs updating? FWD? XTS, hello... The only thing mine doesn't have that would be of interest would be Bluetooth connectivity, and OnStar's unlimited calling for $10/month takes care of that. Mine doesn't have adaptive cruise, but it was an option. I have zero desire for keyless go, or whatever GM calls it.

It's the American 7, S, or LS. New, it is a bargain in comparison -- and used it's a steal. I wish I had a silver and black Platinum to park next to it...

I've given the double flip off to most automotive trends since full size personal luxury coupes started disappearing -- this one is no different. I'm not going to argue, however, as the depreciation was to my benefit. It should have cost a lot more than it did...

orconn
04-29-11, 12:32 AM
It's big, bold, and in your face. The base interior is nice, while the Platinum interior is outstanding. It has plenty of power for 95% of the driving I'll ever do -- and a still incredible engine note. The ride is like glass, but I can take a twisty 2 lane at 50 MPH with very little body roll, thanks to MRC.

I can pick up three grown men from the airport, with luggage and briefcases -- or drive to a lunch meeting -- to RAVE reviews. And no one has to compromise, or get "stuck" in the back (where there is also heat, lumbar, adjustable headrests in the seats, rear climate control, and power rear sunshade). Although, they do lack the cooling and massage found in the front seats...

What really needs updating? FWD? XTS, hello... The only thing mine doesn't have that would be of interest would be Bluetooth connectivity, and OnStar's unlimited calling for $10/month takes care of that. Mine doesn't have adaptive cruise, but it was an option. I have zero desire for keyless go, or whatever GM calls it.

It's the American 7, S, or LS. New, it is a bargain in comparison -- and used it's a steal. I wish I had a silver and black Platinum to park next to it...

I've given the double flip off to most automotive trends since full size personal luxury coupes started disappearing -- this one is no different. I'm not going to argue, however, as the depreciation was to my benefit. It should have cost a lot more than it did...

I agree, Hueterm, the DTS Platinum makes for a real bargain in the used car market!

RippyPartsDept
04-29-11, 12:37 AM
hueterm, i'm totally with you... i'd love to get into a used DTS Platinum down the road when i can afford one (or even a nicely optioned STS V8)

johnny kannapo
04-29-11, 08:58 PM
In 2022 I may be able to afford a 2012 Model.