: Cadillac Gripe



02603sec
04-19-11, 07:21 PM
I'm a guy over 50 and 6'4", again, I am not being marketed to. Cadillac does not give a SHAT about me or my demography. They advertise for women. Not offering an 8 cyl is death to the STS. I am a taller person and CTS is too small. I never liked the transverse mounted front wheel drive in the Eldo or Deville but I had several of them. This is another end to the good ole days. I'll be one of those old farts 20 years from now with an STS V under a cover in my garage (next to my vette). Now Hyundai has a luxury 8, and my watch cost more!

chazglenn3
04-19-11, 09:16 PM
Excellent post! I agree totally with everything you said (except that I am 48 and 5' 10") I can't believe that they killed off the V8 STS and the XLR. I'll bet the XLS or ALS or whatever they call it will only be a V6 as well. I too will probably pick up a STS-V in a year or two.

mbnv992
04-19-11, 11:06 PM
I was 23 when I bought my STS brand new at the end of 2008 ( it was a 2007 leftover model ), they were pushing me to go with a CTS. I'm 6'2", and I found the CTS to be very uncomfortable. My knees were up in the dash somewhere, didn't really like the gauge look, and the center console buttons were very small / awkward to use. So, I asked them if they had any STS's in stock. They only had one. A base model (1SE) V8 in Silver with 48 miles on the ODO. I ended up buying that car. LOVED the look / space / feel, etc. of the STS MUCH more than that of the new CTS by FAR. Sucks they are discontinuing the STS, and it looks like the STS's replacement, the XTS, will most likely NOT come with a V8, OR RWD.

I've since sold my STS (I overpaid for that car my about $20 large lol), but just convinced my mom to get into an STS (a 2005 V6 model), and she LOVES it. These cars are SUPER cheap used, hell I should have bought mine used, and saved a TON of money lol

Anyway, I agree 100% with the OP.

turnne
04-20-11, 08:34 AM
Sucks they are discontinuing the STS, and it looks like the STS's replacement, the XTS, will most likely NOT come with a V8, OR RWD.

I've since sold my STS (I overpaid for that car my about $20 large lol), but just convinced my mom to get into an STS (a 2005 V6 model), and she LOVES it. These cars are SUPER cheap used, hell I should have bought mine used, and saved a TON of money lol

Anyway, I agree 100% with the OP.

and there is the issue
Based on how "SUPER" cheap these cars are used..I would have to speculate if GM was really making any money on them...I would further say that they were taking it in the shorts when the lease returns came in

Sounds like you guys are looking for a full sized luxury car

Imports are the only way you have to go these days

I suggest a Lexus LS...that seems to have picked up a lot of the demographic that bought Cadillacs 20 years ago

The Hyundai genesis V8 is also a very nice car..and unlike the Cadillac seems to be holding resale value

Their new Eqqus...aimed at the Lexus LS..is also quite a value sticker ed in the high $50's...its less expensive, sticker wise than a loaded V8 STS was and is a better car in every way


Warren

02603sec
04-21-11, 11:28 AM
No nissan, toyota, Lexus MB BMW or Hyundai for me. I've have been there and will pass. Looks like Ford. Lincoln

bbjorklund99
04-21-11, 12:42 PM
The technology in the past 10-15 years as improved to the point where they are getting V8 power from the V6's. If they can get the same horsepower out of a V6 as the current V8 then why would they continue to build the V8 at a higher cost? I purchased a 4 stroke Yamaha snowmobile and got nothing but grief from all my 2-stoke buddies about how heavy and slow it was. They were looking at spec sheets and had not bothered to ride one. I told them to ditch the spec sheets and let's race them on the lake. After I blew their doors off they were talking a different story. I guess my point is that rather than getting worked up about the V8 going away I would encourage you to drive one and then make the decision based on your test drive not spec sheets and speculation. The 6 cylinder cars in the 70, 80, and 90's were gutless but many of the 6 cylinders from today are producing more HP and Torque than the V8's of that era and weigh half as much. I have not driven the 2010 or 2011 V6 but I understand they have a lot more power than the 2005-2007 V6 and I am not complaining about the V6 in my 2006. If the engine can produce the needed HP and torque and is reliable than what difference does it make if it is a V6 or a V8. Just my 2 cents worth.

Brad

jordan00escalade
04-21-11, 01:11 PM
They should continue to make V8's cause that's what the consumers demand. At one point, Cadillac insisted that they only make luxury cars, and be exempt from the Truck/SUV market. They seen how much money Lincoln was making and the Escalade was born. What it may take is for them to see the other manufacturers profit in the FULLSIZE Sedan (V8) market. Just because Cadillac stops making full size luxury sedans, doesn't mean people will stop buying them. If you let history tell the story.. The Fullsize V8 luxury sedan established the Cadillac name. Power, Class, Full size.. Those are my past and present thoughts of the Cadillac name, who knows what the future holds..

I honestly think the V8's will be back in time. Too many consumers WANT V8's, supply and demand.

dkozloski
04-21-11, 01:27 PM
V6s sound like a$$.

OffThaHorseCEO
04-21-11, 01:43 PM
not only that, v8s can be SMOOTHER than v6's.

Think about it, if theyve advanced technology to the point where a v6 can perform like a v8 used to, doesnt it make sense they can make a v8 perform much better than before as well? In this way, they can make v8's with slightly less displacement more power, and very smooth.

Lord Cadillac
04-21-11, 01:50 PM
I'm moving this discussion into the "general" area as I believe it covers more than just the STS..


I'm a guy over 50 and 6'4", again, I am not being marketed to. Cadillac does not give a SHAT about me or my demography. They advertise for women. Not offering an 8 cyl is death to the STS. I am a taller person and CTS is too small. I never liked the transverse mounted front wheel drive in the Eldo or Deville but I had several of them. This is another end to the good ole days. I'll be one of those old farts 20 years from now with an STS V under a cover in my garage (next to my vette). Now Hyundai has a luxury 8, and my watch cost more!

The STS IS dead. It's being replaced (in a few years) by the CTS - which is growing in size to better compete with cars like the BMW 5-Series and Mercedes E-Class.. Why they don't just call it STS is beyond me (and most other people). The interior will be as large as the outgoing STS and will have a 315 or so horsepower V6. The torque won't exactly be there but it'll be close. There MAY be a twin turbo V6 coming - but the CTS-V will probably be what you want as it'll have a new V8 that GM has been working on...


Excellent post! I agree totally with everything you said (except that I am 48 and 5' 10") I can't believe that they killed off the V8 STS and the XLR. I'll bet the XLS or ALS or whatever they call it will only be a V6 as well. I too will probably pick up a STS-V in a year or two.

The Cadillac XTS (http://www.cadillacxts.com) is a replacement for the DTS and will not have a V8. The Cadillac ATS (http://www.cadillacats.com) is a new entry-level vehicle and will have a V8 for the V-Series version. Why they don't just call the ATS CTS and the XTS DTS is also beyond me...


and there is the issue
Based on how "SUPER" cheap these cars are used..I would have to speculate if GM was really making any money on them...I would further say that they were taking it in the shorts when the lease returns came in

Sounds like you guys are looking for a full sized luxury car

Imports are the only way you have to go these days

I suggest a Lexus LS...that seems to have picked up a lot of the demographic that bought Cadillacs 20 years ago

The Hyundai genesis V8 is also a very nice car..and unlike the Cadillac seems to be holding resale value

Their new Eqqus...aimed at the Lexus LS..is also quite a value sticker ed in the high $50's...its less expensive, sticker wise than a loaded V8 STS was and is a better car in every way


Warren

All the cars you've mentioned are quite nice and I'm waiting for Cadillac to have something like them as well.. Add me to the list of people not happy with what Cadillac has to offer (besides the CTS-V - which is really not my idea of a luxury car. Neither is M5 or E63 AMG).


The technology in the past 10-15 years as improved to the point where they are getting V8 power from the V6's. If they can get the same horsepower out of a V6 as the current V8 then why would they continue to build the V8 at a higher cost? I purchased a 4 stroke Yamaha snowmobile and got nothing but grief from all my 2-stoke buddies about how heavy and slow it was. They were looking at spec sheets and had not bothered to ride one. I told them to ditch the spec sheets and let's race them on the lake. After I blew their doors off they were talking a different story. I guess my point is that rather than getting worked up about the V8 going away I would encourage you to drive one and then make the decision based on your test drive not spec sheets and speculation. The 6 cylinder cars in the 70, 80, and 90's were gutless but many of the 6 cylinders from today are producing more HP and Torque than the V8's of that era and weigh half as much. I have not driven the 2010 or 2011 V6 but I understand they have a lot more power than the 2005-2007 V6 and I am not complaining about the V6 in my 2006. If the engine can produce the needed HP and torque and is reliable than what difference does it make if it is a V6 or a V8. Just my 2 cents worth.

Brad

I do believe today's six cylinder cars are giving a very close-to V8 experience.. The torque isn't exactly there and you CAN feel that on the highway - especially considering the fact that cars are getting very heavy these days... So it's "good" - or "good enough" - but certainly not "great". Everyone else still has "great". It would be nice if the "Standard of the World" had "great" too... But I'm just a big F'ing whiner. So don't pay any attention to me.


They should continue to make V8's cause that's what the consumers demand. At one point, Cadillac insisted that they only make luxury cars, and be exempt from the Truck/SUV market. They seen how much money Lincoln was making and the Escalade was born. What it may take is for them to see the other manufacturers profit in the FULLSIZE Sedan (V8) market. Just because Cadillac stops making full size luxury sedans, doesn't mean people will stop buying them. If you let history tell the story.. The Fullsize V8 luxury sedan established the Cadillac name. Power, Class, Full size.. Those are my past and present thoughts of the Cadillac name, who knows what the future holds..

I honestly think the V8's will be back in time. Too many consumers WANT V8's, supply and demand.

I agree.. Everybody else has them.. I think Cadillac will have a good V8 again in the future. Who knows when?

orconn
04-21-11, 02:43 PM
To get the degree of smoothness and torque required of a "luxury" car at least a V-8 or a strong I-6 is required.
V-6's just don't have the refinement for a luxury car motor.

bbjorklund99
04-21-11, 04:08 PM
It is all about the numbers. GM spends millions of dollars every year doing market research and determining what configuration will sell and what won't. There are people who currently own imports that would never buy a Cadillac even if it is better than their current import and would save them $20,000. Those are not the people that Cadillac is targeting. There are also the group who will not buy a Cadillac unless it has a V8 motor. If that group is a very small part of the market segment and the cost of offering the V8 motor does not justify the R&D or added manufacturing costs they may decide not to offer the V8 as an option. I worked for a company that manufactured construction equipment for 12 years and we made decisions based on competition, cost of tooling, inventory costs, market share, and customer retention. The people on this forum are passionate about their cars but if that number is not large enough to warrant the production of a certain model they will discontinue that model. Like everyone else on the forum I love the STS but the reality is that my voice may not be heard. It is all about making cars they can sell and making money doing so. The majority of people who drive cars could not tell the difference between a V6 and a V8. They are looking for a car that meets their needs and could careless about the technical specs of the engine, transmission, or whatever else.

Brad

Lord Cadillac
04-21-11, 07:05 PM
not only that, v8s can be SMOOTHER than v6's.

Think about it, if theyve advanced technology to the point where a v6 can perform like a v8 used to, doesnt it make sense they can make a v8 perform much better than before as well? In this way, they can make v8's with slightly less displacement more power, and very smooth.

I completely agree. The sames goes for the "there's no replacement for displacement" argument that comes from the import crowd. They all talk about superchargers and turbochargers - but are they forgetting that large displacement engines would perform even better with forced induction?


It is all about the numbers. GM spends millions of dollars every year doing market research and determining what configuration will sell and what won't. There are people who currently own imports that would never buy a Cadillac even if it is better than their current import and would save them $20,000. Those are not the people that Cadillac is targeting. There are also the group who will not buy a Cadillac unless it has a V8 motor. If that group is a very small part of the market segment and the cost of offering the V8 motor does not justify the R&D or added manufacturing costs they may decide not to offer the V8 as an option. I worked for a company that manufactured construction equipment for 12 years and we made decisions based on competition, cost of tooling, inventory costs, market share, and customer retention. The people on this forum are passionate about their cars but if that number is not large enough to warrant the production of a certain model they will discontinue that model. Like everyone else on the forum I love the STS but the reality is that my voice may not be heard. It is all about making cars they can sell and making money doing so. The majority of people who drive cars could not tell the difference between a V6 and a V8. They are looking for a car that meets their needs and could careless about the technical specs of the engine, transmission, or whatever else.

Brad

You make perfect sense but don't forget that vehicles like the top of the line 7-Series and S-Class (760Li and S65 AMG) don't sell much - but they're halo cars that bring people into dealerships to buy less expensive vehicles. Many of these people aspire to own the more expensive cars one day... After the DTS - which is a 300 horsepower car with front wheel drive - where do you go? Nowhere (at Cadillac). That's a problem. And it will continue to be a problem until close to 2020...

Destroyer
04-21-11, 10:00 PM
I think Cadillac will have a good V8 again in the future. Who knows when?They have some now but they are Chevies as found in the CTS-V and Escalade. A formula they need to stick with. Cadillac should NEVER have it's own V8 again. History will show that over the last (almost) 40 years, Cadillac sucks at having it's own motors. The 4.5 I hear was decent but pretty much everything else was junk. That's a long time to earn a horrendously bad reputation (hence abnormal rapid depreciation). I like the 429/472/500 motors of yore but they did have oiling issues so it could be said that Cadillac NEVER really had a "good" motor. :nono:

Lord Cadillac
04-21-11, 11:35 PM
I don't care if the engine comes from Hyundai, Playskool or Fisher Price.. If it works, it works. They can call the engine "Penis" if they want. I'm not one of those people who needs to have a "special" engine in my vehicle. If it works the way I want it to, I don't care if Adolf Hitler makes it.

Destroyer
04-22-11, 12:33 AM
I don't care if the engine comes from Hyundai, Playskool or Fisher Price.. If it works, it works. They can call the engine "Penis" if they want. I'm not one of those people who needs to have a "special" engine in my vehicle. If it works the way I want it to, I don't care if Adolf Hitler makes it.I agree with. Cadillac needs to build the "perfect" motor. A motor with the necessary power but first and foremost must be reliable..........moreso than an average car. Reliability is what builds reputation and this is where Cadillac messed up in a big way over the last several decades. People are STILL talking about the 'ole slant six Dodge motors.........why? Because they are and were reliable. That is their well deserved reputation and it's not based on performance. The 4-6-8, 4.1, N* and several more are judged by their bad reputation despite performance. It is what it is. :suspense:

Aron9000
04-22-11, 05:24 AM
It is all about the numbers. GM spends millions of dollars every year doing market research and determining what configuration will sell and what won't. There are people who currently own imports that would never buy a Cadillac even if it is better than their current import and would save them $20,000. Those are not the people that Cadillac is targeting. There are also the group who will not buy a Cadillac unless it has a V8 motor. If that group is a very small part of the market segment and the cost of offering the V8 motor does not justify the R&D or added manufacturing costs they may decide not to offer the V8 as an option. I worked for a company that manufactured construction equipment for 12 years and we made decisions based on competition, cost of tooling, inventory costs, market share, and customer retention. The people on this forum are passionate about their cars but if that number is not large enough to warrant the production of a certain model they will discontinue that model. Like everyone else on the forum I love the STS but the reality is that my voice may not be heard. It is all about making cars they can sell and making money doing so. The majority of people who drive cars could not tell the difference between a V6 and a V8. They are looking for a car that meets their needs and could careless about the technical specs of the engine, transmission, or whatever else.

Brad

GM's marketing research is extremely flawed IMO. Hyundia just launched two new RWD v8 luxo cruisers. The 300/Dodge Charger have been on the market for 6 years now and have shown that Americans want a v8/RWD sedan, they've sold a ton of them. All of Cadillac's competitors offer at least two, if not three or four different v8 powered, RWD sedans. It pisses me off to no end that Cadillac refuses to build a proper luxury sedan.

Midnight
04-22-11, 01:08 PM
> N* ... judged by their bad reputation despite performance.

Hmm, when you talk about the N* having a "bad" reputation, do you mean the LH2 or previous (like the ones with HG issues?) I don't think I can really pin down any common show stopping issues with the LH2 posted here. I do agree that a bad reputation on a previous N* can taint the reputation of all N*'s though.

> Cadillac should NEVER have it's own V8 again.

+1. I do like my N*, but IMO they should have used an LS something engine for the STS and STSV. I don't see why they felt like reinventing the wheel with the LH2 and LC3.

My problem with Cadillac is that for a brief moment, they seemed to have direction and focus. The CTS, STS, etc were made. Then just as quickly, they went back into "Durrr" mode and just sat on those designs and now are just kind of blindly running around drooling embarrassingly all over. IMO, in that market, you have to keep moving and innovating and leading. There is no time to sit back and collect checks from past work. In that race you constantly invest, or you might as well not run. CTS-V notwithstanding :)

Lord Cadillac
04-22-11, 01:14 PM
There are enough people here and elsewhere who have no idea what you're talking about - which is why Cadillac doesn't change. Most people think everything is just fine...


My problem with Cadillac is that for a brief moment, they seemed to have direction and focus. The CTS, STS, etc were made. Then just as quickly, they went back into "Durrr" mode and just sat on those designs and now are just kind of blindly running around drooling embarrassingly all over. IMO, in that market, you have to keep moving and innovating and leading. There is no time to sit back and collect checks from past work. In that race you constantly invest, or you might as well not run. CTS-V notwithstanding :)