: 05 Northstar Timing Chain Failure?



andy396ss
04-07-11, 12:29 PM
I was wondering what possibilies others thought could be causing the following codes:

P0016 - Crankshaft Position - Camshaft Position Correlation (Bank 1 Sensor A)
P0300 - Multiple misfires

I'm not getting any other codes and it will run, barely. When it does start is runs horribly rough, missing, lots of raw fuel/smoke. When it's running I don't hear any tapping from valves hitting the piston however, when starting it cold I think I do hear a slight tap on one cylinder.

Since I'm not getting any sensor failure codes, I don't think it's that. My guess is a tensioner failed and allowed the chain to jump teeth.

Is bank 1 the front or the back? If it's the front a compression test looks to be much easier.

Any other ideas what might cause these codes or possible diagnostic procedures?

Thanks!

Ranger
04-07-11, 02:58 PM
Bank 1 is the rear bank.

Chain failures are unheard of. This would be a first.

Based on those DTC's I'd replace both CKP sensors.

andy396ss
04-07-11, 03:14 PM
Ranger, thanks for the reply.

I'm with you, but wouldn't you think a bad crankshaft position sensor would cause a timing off code on both banks. Both a P0016 & P0018?

tateos
04-07-11, 05:21 PM
I know what you're saying...and what Ranger is saying too. Chain failure IS unheard of on these engines - literally unheard of, I think. On the other hand, when the crankshaft position sensors fail, they don't usually cause the massive problems you're having - usually it's more just stumbling/stalling when underway. I'm pretty sure that the engine will run OK on just one of the following: either crankshaft position sensor or (even just) the camshaft position sensor. For what it's worth, the symptoms (not the codes) sound more to me like a bad MAF sensor.

andy396ss
04-07-11, 09:09 PM
OK, so it's been a few of weeks since I pulled the codes. Looking again tonight, there IS a P0171 - System Too Lean (Bank 1) and P0174 - System Too Lean (Bank 2). I think when I first looked at it in my mind I ignored the lean codes thinking the bad timing was causing the lean codes. It's definitly not actually running lean based on the raw fumes and smoke coming from the exhaust. So if it wasn't for the P0016 I'd be right there with you on the bad MAF sensor. What are the odds of a crank or cam shaft sensor going bad, not throwing a P033x crankshaft or P034x camshaft code, and a MAF sensor going bad (again with no code) all at the same? Pretty slim, right? Can anyone chime in with their thoughts on a crankshaft or camshaft sensor going bad (bad enough to cause these symptoms) without the PCM knowing it?

Ranger
04-07-11, 09:31 PM
P0171 & P0174 usually point to a ripped plenum on the 2000+ engines. Lots of info on this with pics if you do a search for plenum.

andy396ss
04-08-11, 06:11 AM
It is an 2005 so a ripped plenum is certainly a possibility. If it wasn't for that blasted P0016 I'd say you're definitly right on. I'll dig into it some more this weekend to see what I can find. Thank you tateo and Ranger for the advice. I'll let you know what I find (or don't find). I'm suspicious of the bank 1 cam sensor since I'm not getting a P0018 - Crankshaft Position - Camshaft Position Correlation (Bank 2 Sensor A), but I'm skeptical it could be bad enough to cause the horrible running behavior I'm getting and the PCM not knowing it. That's why I'm leaning towards something mechanical.

A little history, I bought the car in this condition. Previous owner was a mature woman who simply drove it back and forth to work. It was at least maintained per the book, so I really don't suspect neglect or abuse.

Submariner409
04-08-11, 08:20 AM
I believe that, if a CKP totally fails, the PCM defaults to a set timing of 10 degrees BTDC.

If the CMP, or wiring, fails then the PCM loses piston TDC info.

andy396ss
04-08-11, 08:32 AM
Losing TDC info would definitly explain the running behavior I'm observing. Do you think a CMP or wiring failure could occur without a CMP specific code? Thanks!

NHRATA01
04-08-11, 09:58 AM
I would also think the Cam position sensor is the leading culprit. The crank and cam have to agree, and P0016 code sounds as if they are not synch'd on bank 1, but are fine on bank 2.

One other point on your lean code - the O2's may be reading lean, and the ecm is overcompensating by adding in more fuel to the mixture. That is why the exhuast is smelling overly rich. I am guessing the problem is the long-term fuel trims are lean beyond the acceptable range at cruising speeds (I want to say it's +/- 20% out of stoich - 14.7:1, but it's been ~7 years since I played with those while tuning my LS1) and thus there is more fuel being dumped in to accommodate.

That said a skipped tooth on the timing chain for bank 1 is still within the realm of possibility IMHO.

andy396ss
04-08-11, 10:08 AM
After reading a bit more, since there's only one CMP sensor a P0018 is probably not possible as there's no sensor on that bank to compare. Even if it is only a bad sensor, I'm likely still looking at dropping the craddle to eliminate the crankcase oil leaks. Thanks for your input!

If it's anything more than a bad sensor, it's probably going to get a new low miles replacement engine as it got 114K mi on it now.

Ranger
04-08-11, 10:59 AM
Losing TDC info would definitly explain the running behavior I'm observing. Do you think a CMP or wiring failure could occur without a CMP specific code? Thanks!

Probably not, since it is a monitored sensor.

Submariner409
04-08-11, 11:32 AM
The crank and cam have to agree, and P0016 code sounds as if they are not synch'd on bank 1, but are fine on bank 2.

There is no CMP on Bank 2. The only CMP reads Bank 1 exhaust cam position - it uses a raised portion on the drive sprocket to create a pulse in the Hall effect sensor.

NHRATA01
04-08-11, 01:20 PM
There is no CMP on Bank 2. The only CMP reads Bank 1 exhaust cam position - it uses a raised portion on the drive sprocket to create a pulse in the Hall effect sensor.

Ah gotcha. Thought there was one in each head. Apologies for the erroneous information.

stoveguyy
04-11-11, 10:42 AM
drop cradle to fix case seals? could pull front cover to check timing chain/guides. saw a pic of extremely worn nylon chain guides at a fiero website. motor had 3 pistons with broken ring lands. was advertised low mileage motor but wear did not prove that out.

andy396ss
04-11-11, 11:09 AM
drop cradle to fix case seals? could pull front cover to check timing chain/guides. saw a pic of extremely worn nylon chain guides at a fiero website. motor had 3 pistons with broken ring lands. was advertised low mileage motor but wear did not prove that out.

Is that not the standard procedure to fix 1/2 case seals? I have a lift and all the equipment to make dropping the cradle as pain free as possible. Being that the engine is like 10lbs stuffed in a 5lbs sack, I'm sure there will pain...

andy396ss
04-11-11, 11:19 AM
I didn't have as much time as I hoped to look at it this weekend, but I did pull the MAF sensor and plenum boot. Boot was tear free. MAF sensor and throttle body are as clean as a whistle. Pulled the CMP sensor and noticed a little fine grey metalic material accumulated to the sensor. I wiped it clean and reinstalled it. No change in symptoms. Just for fun I measured the CMP sensor resistance across the two farthest apart pins at 9.5K ohms. A compression test is next.

PS, can anyone comment in the sticky about my request for differences in the 2006-2010 LD8 engines as compared to an 2005?

andy396ss
04-18-11, 08:03 AM
So I gave up. I'm just pulling the engine and opening it up instead of bothering to do a compression test on the rear bank of cylinders. I think it's time better spent on my part with the way it sounds simply just cranking it over. I'll let you know what I find.

andy396ss
04-23-11, 09:47 AM
Update - Motor is out. 90% sure the original diagnosis was correct. When turning it over by hand obvious clanking sound coming from timing chain area (like a tensioner failed) in addition to binding and the sound of a valve hitting the head. I'll update again when I get the covers off.

andy396ss
05-15-11, 07:52 AM
Original diagnosis is now confirmed. Tensioner failure. Not sure what failed first, the part that applies tension on the chain, or the plastic guide above it.

JoeTahoe
05-15-11, 08:47 AM
that sucks

andy396ss
05-15-11, 09:07 AM
Yeah, it's OK though. Getting ready to put in a new motor with only 10K miles on it.

Ranger
05-15-11, 11:58 AM
WOW! That must be a first.

Speedygman
05-15-11, 12:38 PM
Why don't you put the Studs in the new motor before putting in car.

Submariner409
05-15-11, 12:40 PM
Remember a while back - someone had a timing chain tensioner nylon slipper failure - and commented that there was a whine or metallic rubbing sound coming from the chaincase (timing cover) ?

Yep, this guide slipper failure is rare - andy396ss - did you notice a chain noise too ???? Some subdued chain zzzzzzzzzzzzz is normal, especially if you listen into the oil fill cap hole - but a pronounced metallic buzz would be a clue.

mhamilton
05-15-11, 01:47 PM
Remember a while back - someone had a timing chain tensioner nylon slipper failure - and commented that there was a whine or metallic rubbing sound coming from the chaincase (timing cover) ?


I remember that tensioner failure, have the pictures saved but not the link. Chain wore through the nylon just like the Mercedes chain tensioners did on the w126 era engines.

drewsdeville
05-15-11, 03:26 PM
Nylon guides wearing through aren't exactly uncommon. Happens all the time. The Ford modulars (OHC) are known for this, as well as earlier 3800's (pushrod), though they generally make quite a bit of racket before complete failure like this one.

Seems like N* failure is relatively uncommon, thouogh.

ponyboyt
05-26-11, 12:58 AM
would there be noise at idle? Or just at higher RPM?

Submariner409
05-26-11, 01:33 PM
would there be noise at idle? Or just at higher RPM?

Depends on which slipper went bad - a guide slipper would be nasty slapping noises while a tension slipper would begin as a pronounced chain whine as the individual links slid over the exposed tensioner shoe.

Find someone or a YouTube of a standard OHV engine with an aftermarket gear cam drive setup. That's what a failing chain drive sounds like. The noisy cam drive attraction came from the pronounced chain whine in some versions of Ferrari DOHC V-12's.

Kneedragr
02-20-14, 03:33 PM
I bought an 02 sts from a guy with 140,000 miles on it. He said that it was running fine and one day at a light it hiccupped and the engine shut off, it would crank but wouldnot start back up. Long story short after I got it home I removed the plugs to do a compression test on the front bank and as soon as I hit the start switch the damn thing fired right up. Now I'm a daggon savvy mechanic and all but I couldn't believe it. I ended up being able to move it with the back cylinders firing just fine from a parking spot to my garage, when with everything hooked up it wouldn't even stay running for more than 5 sec. I put the plugs back in but left the coil pack off just to see if it might be a timing issue and the damn thing wouldn't even start. take the plugs out and started right up. This would be a first for me if the timing jumped on this thing. I have another 02 SLS that has 160,000 miles on it and its my daily driver. So a timing chain issue maybe the cause. By the way the #2 cylinder which I was starting to do a compression test with had 125 PSI showing on the gage.

I bought an 02 sts from a guy with 140,000 miles on it. He said that it was running fine and one day at a light it hiccupped and the engine shut off, it would crank but wouldnot start back up. Long story short after I got it home I removed the plugs to do a compression test on the front bank and as soon as I hit the start switch the damn thing fired right up. Now I'm a daggon savvy mechanic and all but I couldn't believe it. I ended up being able to move it with the back cylinders firing just fine from a parking spot to my garage, when with everything hooked up it wouldn't even stay running for more than 5 sec. I put the plugs back in but left the coil pack off just to see if it might be a timing issue and the damn thing wouldn't even start. take the plugs out and started right up. This would be a first for me if the timing jumped on this thing. I have another 02 SLS that has 160,000 miles on it and its my daily driver. So a timing chain issue maybe the cause. By the way the #2 cylinder which I was starting to do a compression test with had 155 PSI showing on the gage for all 2,4,6,8 cylinders. But I seriously doubt it with proper compression on left bank. Any other thoughts? CKP sensors is where I'm leaning towards.

Submariner409
02-20-14, 06:12 PM
Duplicate posts merged. Since you resurrected a 3 year old thread, did you go back and read the whole thing ? There's quite a bit of info in here.

Pull the Diagnostic Trouble Codes from the car's built-in code scanner/reader system. This problem sounds like faulty CKP or CMP sensor work. (The Acronyms sticky just above this.)

It's most likely not the timing chain(s) - there are 3 in there. Look into the oil fill hole using a strong flashlight.