: Finally An Injector My Car Likes!



PhxTriode
03-15-11, 01:05 PM
I have been through a few iterations of injectors for my V.

1) Seimens Deka #62's (idle sucked)
2) Drill Stock #80's (everything sucked)

I finally have an injector in my car that just works

Injector Dynamics ID850's
They flow 97lbs/hr @ 4 bar and a minimum pulse width of .4ms (great idle)

Injector Dynamics provides every data point with their injectors. Voltage offsets, delta pressure, and short pulse adders. Actually verified and tested not interpolated.

I had put back stock injectors (thanks for the reco Jesse) to run down some issues (ended up being the drilled injectors, CAI and my custom lid needed tweaking).

I loaded the data that DSX Tuning provided with the injectors. I popped in the ID850 injectors car fired right up and idled better than it did with stock injectors (matched to +1/-1%). Did a little MAF transfer clean up in my tune and hello world drives like butter. WOT is dialed, when the car goes into PE it hits commanded AFR faster and I am at 62% injector duty cycle.

Hoping for cool weather Saturday for a dyno pull... come on 600RWHP

I want to thanks to Dave at DSX Tuning and Paul Yaw of Injector Dynamics for pointing me in the right direction with these injectors and some other tricks.

shade
03-15-11, 02:14 PM
Oo Oo dyno day! We should call down a few other members!

Bushidopupil
03-15-11, 02:22 PM
Very happy for you sir....injectors are on my todo list...

PhxTriode
03-15-11, 02:36 PM
Very happy for you sir....injectors are on my todo list...

I highly recommed the ID850's. I can forward DSX's info if you like.

Bushidopupil
03-15-11, 02:40 PM
I highly recommed the ID850's. I can forward DSX's info if you like.

Yes sir, please PM it to me.

Thank you very much!

PhxTriode
03-15-11, 02:49 PM
PM sent

cadcoupe
03-15-11, 03:06 PM
Where do you buy them and approx price?

PhxTriode
03-15-11, 03:30 PM
Oo Oo dyno day! We should call down a few other members!

Jan mentioned a dyno day a few months back. $50 for 3 pulls. Maybe we could get enough guys together to get it done.

PhxTriode
03-15-11, 03:34 PM
Where do you buy them and approx price?

Sent you a PM with contact

Price $880. After all the issues with the others worth every penny.

wait4me
03-15-11, 11:37 PM
ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 12:02 AM
Too little too late Jesse :-)

If I am correct NONE of the other injectors out there flow at .4ms.

Most cheat fuel pressure at idle and don't get the same spray pattern

Be sure to include offset vs pressure vs IGNV , flow rate vs press, short pulse adder and Min injector pulse.

This will help everyone tremendously.

I am VERY happy with my $880 purchase.

For more info www.injectordynamics.com/drillbitsanddipshits.html

Very informative

shade
03-16-11, 12:03 AM
But dont different injectors have different spray patterns and different patterns can affect drivability?

Also PHX your linky no work

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 12:06 AM
The real problem is at low pulse widths

www.injectordynamics.com/lowpulsetech.html

www.injectordynamics.com/gmdata.html

DSteck
03-16-11, 12:22 AM
ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..
I respectfully disagree with you.

The only injectors that have all of the proper calibration data are OEM injectors for OEM applications, like Bosch, Delphi, Siemens Deka... and then Injector Dynamics. ID is the only aftermarket injector supplier that provides the voltage offset and short pulse adder data for injectors in addition to flow rate data, and not just flow rate data generated at one pressure (which is typically 3 bar). The Bernoulli equation to convert flow rate doesn't reflect real world conditions. The fact of the matter is, nobody can "tune in" the voltage offset and short pulse adder data. It has to be determined using specialized equipment. I can promise that an Excel spreadsheet will not match the accuracy and precision of $150,000 worth of equipment that ID uses.

Almost any injector can be made to work at high pulsewidths. It's the short pulse area that separates the men from the boys, and this is where injectors are operating during idle and low load driving. This is where the voltage offset (or dead time) and short pulse adder data really comes into play, and relies on it being totally accurate in order to provide predictable, reliable, and repeatable fueling based on what is commanded. These injector pulsewidth modifiers work to convert the theoretical pulsewidth into an actual pulsewidth.

While the data for the Ford Racing injectors, like old school green tops, Siemens Deka 60s, and Siemens Deka 80s can be converted from the low slope/high slope format into short pulse adder, it's still not 100% correct, although it's a better estimation than trying to use whatever is in the calibration to begin with. The fact of the matter is, the short pulse area of operation isn't linear. This means the "low slope" conversion doesn't really work perfect, and leaves room for error. I'd post a link to a good graph representing this, but my post count is too low. :(

That said, having actual calibrated data for not only flow rate but also the voltage offset and short pulse adder is critical in making a large injector behave around idle conditions. You really get what you pay for with Injector Dynamics, not only because of the data they provide, but also because their injectors are matched based on flow rate AS WELL AS response time! You won't find that anywhere else, because no other company has the equipment to even measure that short of OEM manufacturers.

The SD60s with the Greg Banish data work OK, but ID injectors with the actual developed data are night and day different when it comes to start up, idle control, and drivability. Without the appropriate data, large injectors (80lbs or higher) will struggle to maintain decent fueling at idle unless you drop fuel pressure down to a pressure that will put the huge injector at 3-4ms for idle. Variable fuel pressure control helps to make this happen, but it's a bandaid to an easily solved problem.

I would challenge any tuner to try a set of IDs against any other injector, and give an honest report of what they think.

FWIW, I am a GM tuner (and an injector snob) that works primarily with cars running big injectors, and I can say with absolute certainty that IDs blow away everything out there. They're freakin expensive, but oh so worth it. That's why their injectors are in my twin turbo C6 Z06.

wait4me
03-16-11, 12:24 AM
The lower fuel pressure allows you to maintain a larger pulsewidth if you have issues with them not being able to open well at slower times. That is an easy fix. An injector sprays just fine at .6 ms.. The reason you need would ever need to be .4 is that that injector is WAY to big for your application and fuel usage. You need a 72lb from the looks of it. When you select a size you need to pick one that is in your horsepower range both future and present, but within reason.

A fuel injector sprays a nice pattern still at 30psi as well, fords run lower pressures and ramp up pressure as fuel is needed as well, just like gm started to do.

If you choose a smaller fuel lb per hour, then that brings up your pulsewidth requirement all around..


Also remember when you are modifying the stock injector, all they are doing it opening up the head of the injector allowing more fuel to flow thru at a givin time. That DOES NOT CHANGE its "electric guts" to make it perform any faster or slower. That stays the same. You are just changing the volumes....

Just a fyi, A stock injector on your lsa will go down to .4194 ms smoothly on a scope @ 13.4 volts and a stock impedence driver without a noticable hickup on the screen.. So if punched out to 100lb per hour, it would still be able to go down to .4194 pulsewidth just fine.. Most of the time though, you want higher pulsewidths, like around .6 - .8 for idle conditions.. Which is why that is the target of why they pick the low pressure fuel pump pressure mode where they do.. :)

wait4me
03-16-11, 12:38 AM
Dave,

On the subject of the other persons injector data, I have used thier injectors before and the injectors work just like everyone elses with no gains one way or another... Also just like thier data for puting into the calibration. It isnt even close on a lot of them. A test of that is, if you have a tune perfectly setup, then introduce ONLY those injectors, and keep fuel pressures the same and the only change was the injectors, the vehicle should respond, have the same trims, and the same fueling at wot, ect if you put in the tables provided... But that isnt the case, they always need tweeked from what they provide in those spreadsheets..

My data allows you to put in the injectors, and do the tables, and everything is right back in line with no tweeking of anything fuel injector related.. You have the same trims, the same idle fueling, the same wot fuel ratio ect.... NOTHING else needs tweeked....

Most of the stuff i saw in thier list, dont even match what i see here in person with the same type of equipment of what they supposedly tested. I have access to alot of things i probably shouldnt fuel wise.. :> ....... So i gave up and just went back to what works here in person everyday tested tried and true.. I too build twin turbo cars... Injectors are injectors........

Paul Yaw
03-16-11, 12:38 AM
ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..

How do you propose to generate the pressure dependent flow rate, pressure dependent offset, low pulse adder, and voltage sensitivity without injector response curves?

wait4me
03-16-11, 12:43 AM
Paul, Shale i set up all the injector values for an injector i have here at 80lb at 3 bar, that you request,send you the injector and if im within 1% error on the info i provide for you, i get a 10,000 paypal payment sent to hannahbubb@yahoo.com??

DSteck
03-16-11, 12:44 AM
This is false. At lower pressures, the atomization can suffer. Fords will drop pressure because when you are operating out of boost (ie: pulling a vacuum), you're increasing your effective pressure, otherwise known as the pressure across the rail or differential pressure. Ford tries to maintain this at 3 bar, so you're never really getting down to 30psi, although it may be that low in the rail itself.

An injector won't actually go down to .4 ms. The PCM will say it needs that THEORETICAL pulse width, but the ACTUAL pulsewidth will be somewhere around 1.2ms, give or take. Theoretical pulsewidth is what the PCM determines is needed to meet the demanded fuel mass based on a perfect world with an injector that is 100% linear down to 0ms and has no delay. In the real world, the injector has a delay and doesn't function linear at short pulsewidths, and those are the adders that get piled on to the theoretical pulsewidth to arrive at an actual commanded pulsewidth for the injector.

Modifying an injector most certainly does change the short pulse adder data along with the voltage offset, however the impact is far greater on the short pulse adder data. Read the first link that PhxTriode posted (although it needs to end in DrillbitsAndDipshits because the link is case sensitive). This article will clearly explain why the data changes when an injector is modified. While the internals of the injector don't change, the dynamic characterization does indeed change drastically. Also, ID doesn't redrill any injectors. Redrilling can result in destruction of the spray pattern, as some of the holes will just spit out a laminar stream of fuel. That's not a good thing. I'll be interested to hear your reasoning for why the voltage offset and short pulse data doesn't change when modifying an injector's flow rate after seeing the characterization graphs.

As far as data not jiving, I've only run into that when going from mystery injectors to IDs... Never stock to IDs.

Paul Yaw
03-16-11, 12:57 AM
Paul, Shale i set up all the injector values for an injector i have here at 80lb at 3 bar, that you request,send you the injector and if im within 1% error on the info i provide for you, i get a 10,000 paypal payment??

You have deflected, rather than answer my question.

Let me put it in simpler terms.

If I tell you that I am 6'2", and weigh 230lbs, but give you no other information, can you provide an accurate facsimile of me?

That is essentially what you are proposing to do with a fuel injector.

Back to my original question, how do you propose to generate an accurate injector model without a response curve?

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 01:26 AM
Jesse,

You have a ton of satisfied customer with your stuff. No question of that.

I went this route and I swear that they idle better than Drumstix's stock injectors I pulled out to install these. You of all people know of the challenges I have had so it would serve me no purpose to not be forthcoming.

My wife and I just went to run some errands and even she noticed how smooth the car drives and idles. She commented on how quite the car was (headers) and it is becuase the car fuels more accurately, the lowest STFT swings I have ever had in the car.

Paul's logic with these injectors and all the correct data, good enough just isn't good enough. Exact data to let the ECM do what it is supposed to do, fuel precisely.

Hell, I may buy another set and send them to you to play with. I confident you would love them.

Also, I have no need to run them down to .4ms but I also don't have to lower fuel pressure at idle and still have spot on fueling.

wait4me
03-16-11, 01:35 AM
Send me 1 injector then, your choice of size and type. If im right on every thing you want me to answer within 1% you will send me 10k??? I can do resolutions down to .01 on voltage, 1psi of fuel pressure from 0 to 120. even do Offsets based on voltage spikes, ect... , what ever you would like to know. ;) Fuel stuff is simple. Just like the software that controls it all......
I can even make it more complicated for you and base it on Hardware varience on what ECM type you are using. Using the actual injector driver on board of a production controller for a specific application. I can do it with E38, e67, e78, E40, p59, p12, p10, p08, ect, pretty much any gm ecm i have here.

And if you want me to do the direct injection injector that could be done as well, but it would have to be data based on production fuel pressures as i would have to use a production setup to monitor it all... Due to the 2000 psi rail pressure potential...

Also To clarify things here. oem GM calibrators are the ones that lower line pressure on the fuel system at idle in the factory setup., So if it is ok for them and it passes emissions and thier extreme durability tests, that way and works just fine for them in all thier tests as well, then i will continue to use thier methods.. There are millions and millions of cars and trucks following the same tuning structure with perfect success.. 30psi is not going to hurt anything.



No injector set is worth 880 bucks.. none... You can get any injector set you want flowmatched from any bulk injector place like racetronics in canada that will do the same thing for alot cheaper.... Tables are tables. If you put in the right tables in the software it dont matter where you get them, they will work.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 01:36 AM
This is false. At lower pressures, the atomization can suffer. Fords will drop pressure because when you are operating out of boost (ie: pulling a vacuum), you're increasing your effective pressure, otherwise known as the pressure across the rail or differential pressure. Ford tries to maintain this at 3 bar, so you're never really getting down to 30psi, although it may be that low in the rail itself.

An injector won't actually go down to .4 ms. The PCM will say it needs that THEORETICAL pulse width, but the ACTUAL pulsewidth will be somewhere around 1.2ms, give or take. Theoretical pulsewidth is what the PCM determines is needed to meet the demanded fuel mass based on a perfect world with an injector that is 100% linear down to 0ms and has no delay. In the real world, the injector has a delay and doesn't function linear at short pulsewidths, and those are the adders that get piled on to the theoretical pulsewidth to arrive at an actual commanded pulsewidth for the injector.

Modifying an injector most certainly does change the short pulse adder data along with the voltage offset, however the impact is far greater on the short pulse adder data. Read the first link that PhxTriode posted (although it needs to end in DrillbitsAndDipshits because the link is case sensitive). This article will clearly explain why the data changes when an injector is modified. While the internals of the injector don't change, the dynamic characterization does indeed change drastically. Also, ID doesn't redrill any injectors. Redrilling can result in destruction of the spray pattern, as some of the holes will just spit out a laminar stream of fuel. That's not a good thing. I'll be interested to hear your reasoning for why the voltage offset and short pulse data doesn't change when modifying an injector's flow rate after seeing the characterization graphs.

As far as data not jiving, I've only run into that when going from mystery injectors to IDs... Never stock to IDs.

Thanks for the clarification Dave, and the case sensitive URL.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 01:42 AM
Send me 1 injector then, your choice of size and type. If im right on every thing you want me to answer within 1% you will send me 10k??? I can do resolutions down to .01 on voltage, 1psi of fuel pressure from 0 to 120. even do Offsets based on voltage spikes, ect... , what ever you would like to know. ;) Fuel stuff is simple. Just like the software that controls it all......
I can even make it more complicated for you and base it on Hardware varience on what ECM type you are using. Using the actual injector driver on board of a production controller for a specific application. I can do it with E38, e67, e78, E40, p59, p12, p10, p08, ect, pretty much any gm ecm i have here.

And if you want me to do the direct injection injector that could be done as well, but it would have to be data based on production fuel pressures as i would have to use a production setup to monitor it all... Due to the 2000 psi rail pressure potential...

Also To clarify things here. oem GM calibrators are the ones that lower line pressure on the fuel system at idle in the factory setup., So if it is ok for them and it passes emissions and thier extreme durability tests, that way and works just fine for them in all thier tests as well, then i will continue to use thier methods.. There are millions and millions of cars and trucks following the same tuning structure with perfect success.. 30psi is not going to hurt anything.



No injector set is worth 880 bucks.. none... You can get any injector set you want flowmatched from any bulk injector place like racetronics in canada that will do the same thing for alot cheaper.... Tables are tables. If you put in the right tables in the software it dont matter where you get them, they will work.

Help me understand then why my car runs better and STFT swing are far less if all flowmatched injector are created equal. I am confused

wait4me
03-16-11, 01:43 AM
Sorry phx for messing with your thread, Mods can delete my posts. I am just tired and need some sugar......


Stock injectors with the correct values will run better than recieved from the factory. It is something i change to give everyone better gas mileage in the tunes i send out to you guys..

There are 100s of tables that are responsible for fuel flow on the injectors. Not just 10.... 100s... I have most of them mapped out in my own stuff for my own use, but only have about 20 or so put in the software for you guys due to you can really **** up stuff if you screw with them incorrectly. Injector firing time based on camshaft is important as well. When you change a cam and it changes the intake opening, you also are effecting the degree of crank rotation where the injector needs to be firing to be at the right spot of injection into the valve event and into the combustion chamber.. if you are early or late on that event, you are wasting fuel, or causing puddling. Which isnt that big of a deal as people get away with not changing that stuff, but the differences in drivability are greatly changed on a car when done.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 01:46 AM
Sorry phx for messing with your thread, Mods can delete my posts. I am just tired and need some sugar......


Stock injectors with the correct values will run better than recieved from the factory. It is something i change to give everyone better gas mileage in the tunes i send out to you guys..

There are 100s of tables that are responsible for fuel flow on the injectors. Not just 10.... 100s... I have most of them mapped out in my own stuff for my own use, but only have about 20 or so put in the software for you guys due to you can really **** up stuff if you screw with them incorrectly. Injector firing time based on camshaft is important as well. When you change a cam and it changes the intake opening, you also are effecting the degree of crank rotation where the injector needs to be firing to be at the right spot of injection into the valve event and into the combustion chamber.. if you are early or late on that event, you are wasting fuel, or causing puddling. Which isnt that big of a deal as people get away with not changing that stuff, but the differences in drivability are greatly changed on a car when done.

No worries Jess.

I still love my $800 injectors :-)

Should be plenty for that 2.3l of yours I am having sleepless nights over.

wait4me
03-16-11, 01:47 AM
In the morning, i will send you a log file of 40 minutes of driving with a set of 80lb modified stock injectors for you to look at. the trims for long term are +-1 and short terms are +-4 thru the whole drive. That is my target for cars that leave here. I have to be that picky as you know, when you go WOT and the trims are too far out, it will also effect wide open throttle fueling. So if you go into wot with a 5% trim it will add 5% of fuel at wot during that wot event... dam 1am.. im off to bed. Sorry again..

wait4me
03-16-11, 01:54 AM
LOL yeah the 2300 thing should be pretty awsome. I have 4 cars here wanting them. in 8 more days, ill have the second test unit and it will be on a car that day and we will hit 1000hp to the wheels for sure. That is his goal. His car is a w4m 434 stroker with lsx block, ported ls7 heads, and that blower with a little shot of nitrous to help him on his way.. His car was the one that Basho the sumo wrestler was sitting on in that picture the other day. :)

Then comes curtis's car the VEAST. beast with a v... lol His should be pretty nasty as well. I have some goodies that should make him pretty happy... His motor parts showed up today and i got them back out in time for final processing then the build. :)

ctsvandme
03-16-11, 08:56 AM
hey guys new here, but just traded my 09 Z06 for the ctsv.. Love the car. I had ID 1000 in my z. Just would like you to know about them. Yes they are
expensive, yes they come with data and yes the are a modified stock injector. All they do is machine the tip off the bottom at a presice angle that exposes the ball seat.. Paul stop kidding everyone that you Invented these. These are stock injectors... I work for Scoggin Dickey so I know what a stock injector looks like. Putting a laser ID on the injector does not mean you make it or invented anything. Oh yeah, the tune I got with them needed a ton of work to bring the trims in right. Sorry that im not thrilled after spending nearly 1000 bucks for a set LOL I plan on doing some mods to the CTSV shortly. Keep you informed

DSteck
03-16-11, 09:24 AM
While there are multiple tables that control fueling, the injector supplier is only accountable for a few of them... Flow rate, voltage offset, and short pulse (well, minimum pulse too if somebody really wanted to nit pick). Things like end of injection timing are not based solely on the injector, but as you stated, the camshaft. This isn't something that an injector supplier should be defining, but rather who is tuning the combination. Same goes for transient fueling... That's based on cylinder head design, and again is the responsibility of the tuner. It is hard to afford you much credibility after claiming that a modified injector doesn't change the dead time and short pulse adder information, which is the biggest misconception about injectors that there is. It goes along the lines of people thinking the world was flat.

As far as dropping fuel pressure down low, that option only exists for 2010+ Camaros, new CTS-Vs, and ZR1s. The C6, GTO, G8, C5, F-body, etc. crowds are stuck with either a set rail pressure or set differential pressure (like a return conversion). The bandaids don't work there.





Scoggin Dickey eh? Boy, there's a can of worms I'd love to open. Hahahahaha.

It is entirely possible your "tuner" didn't know what was going on. I just used ID1000s in a D1 powered C6Z and it was a joke. I threw in the injector data, and everything thereafter was a breeze. Yes, the tune required 50% scaling. If you're saying that the scaling is the extra work required, that isn't ID's problem or fault.... Blame GM for the 63.5 lb/hr hard coded limit on fuel flow. There's no fancy tricks required to make them work. They just work. Please explain, with detail and clarity, what was wrong about the data?

ID makes no illusions about what they do. Their front page clearly states that they are modified injectors. The data provided along with the quality of the modification process and the batch testing based on flow rate AND response time are what make their injectors superior.

I'd say the fact that a novice tuner (no offense to PhxTriode) was able to throw these in along with the supplied data and go out and dial the car in with ease speaks volumes about what you get. He didn't have to do any special tricks, they just worked. Granted the CTS-V gets a 127 lb/hr flow limit (spoiled brats!), which simplifies things since the 850s won't eclipse that anywhere in the IFR table.

Domsz06
03-16-11, 09:24 AM
hey guys new here, but just traded my 09 Z06 for the ctsv.. Love the car. I had ID 1000 in my z. Just would like you to know about them. Yes they are
expensive, yes they come with data and yes the are a modified stock injector. All they do is machine the tip off the bottom at a presice angle that exposes the ball seat.. Paul stop kidding everyone that you Invented these. These are stock injectors... I work for Scoggin Dickey so I know what a stock injector looks like. Putting a laser ID on the injector does not mean you make it or invented anything. Oh yeah, the tune I got with them needed a ton of work to bring the trims in right. Sorry that im not thrilled after spending nearly 1000 bucks for a set LOL I plan on doing some mods to the CTSV shortly. Keep you informed

Interesting..... would like to hear more on this topic....

wait4me
03-16-11, 10:12 AM
My point is this. My Exact point is this. ANY injector with the correct tables put into the software will perform just as well as anyone elses injectors. An injector is an injector. You just have to put in the correct information. All companies are using the same base stock....

Also in a real world condtion, since we dont have individual fuel injector pulsewidth control per cly, It is better to have non flow matched injectors on the car, as then you can stagger the higher flowing units and put them over to the cly that are showing leaner when on the engine dyno. Say cly 3 is showing a 11.56 air fuel ratio and the other cly is showing a 12Af, then you can swap that injector over to the lean one, and then you have 2 cly around 11.84 airfuel... Normally i just have a box of injectors that are flowed at various .5 lb intervals so i can use them on the race trucks.....


Also on the limitation thing for injector flow rates.... I can use those huge injectors with only changing 1 value and not have to cut all those tables in half for the injector flow rate to be correct.

There are 2 solutions, one is just to modify the operating system to use a 32bit value for that perameter to give it more room. As the 16bit value that it is just dont give it enough space and resolution at the increments of values it is aloud to have. It can only go from 0000 to FFFF. In the room that it is allocated to that table. 0000 would be a 0 value on grams per second, 4.192 is 862C in hex, FFFF would be 7.9grams per second and the farthest that is possible.. As after F is 0 again in the hex world..

Moving the remaining 9300 tables over 4 more starting points and clearing out an area for 0000 0000 to FFFF FFFF will allow you more injector flow rate capability than you need to fly to the moon. :)

Or there is one table in the software that can do that for you in a round about way, which is alot easier and what i do for all the 90lb injectors i dump in the 2005 up cars i do here......


I had bought some injectors that where 1000cc from some nice guy down in georgia several years back for a large turbo build that look identical to the ones id just came out with, and they where easy to make work as well.. It looked like they had taken a stock injector and modified the tip of it. It worked pretty well and was pretty easy to run.... I took a picture of the tip and the injector body when i built the car as it was an odd design that i had not seen before.

DSteck
03-16-11, 10:23 AM
I agree almost 100%, and injectors will work as long as you have all the data. The fact is that not all injectors come with that data. However, you are still wrong about modified injectors not changing the short pulse and offset tables. Paul's article pretty clearly shows that this notion is false.

I'm assuming the one table you're talking about is doubling the stoich AFR definition, which throws transient fueling compensation out the window and doesn't allow for the extra spark range since chances are a car using injectors that big will pass 1.36 g/cyl pretty easy.

wait4me
03-16-11, 10:26 AM
No that is not the table im talking about...

wait4me
03-16-11, 10:30 AM
All the table boundries for spark are also easily modified to allow for higher resolution if you need.



The only time i have seen where i need to cut the fueling tables by a percentage are on my own older personal cars where i have exceeded 1200 rwhp with the factory controller, and the values in the Ve table for the needed fuel go to high and causes a system reset/shut down on the electronic throttle setup.... That change was just because of a flaw in the ecm software set though, not from an injector issue.

DSteck
03-16-11, 10:30 AM
Then you must be referring to the voltage flow rate modifier, which numerous people have confirmed doesn't work.

Still waiting for the explanation on how modifying an injector doesn't change the offset and short pulse data. Paul's article pretty clearly debunks that with hard data.

wait4me
03-16-11, 10:37 AM
Not sure how you would have that dead table as it isnt even called on for in the operating system and shouldnt be defined in a software.......

wait4me
03-16-11, 10:39 AM
Hmm i thought i took that one out. It will be gone in the next update...

ctsvandme
03-16-11, 11:38 AM
wait4me you make some good points. I just went to your website. WOW did not realize you were Jesse Bubb!!!. I have no idea why anyone would argue with you on tuning. I would say you forgot more than most of these guys know. Saw you at PRI.. keep up the good work.. And guys listen to him and stop believing the stuff from injector salesmen.. They sound like the Used corvette salesmen that work here. They always have an answer!

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 12:14 PM
wait4me you make some good points. I just went to your website. WOW did not realize you were Jesse Bubb!!!. I have no idea why anyone would argue with you on tuning. I would say you forgot more than most of these guys know. Saw you at PRI.. keep up the good work.. And guys listen to him and stop believing the stuff from injector salesmen.. They sound like the Used corvette salesmen that work here. They always have an answer!

First and foremost I am NOT an injector salesman. I am a Cadillac owner who after several failed tunes from other people (Jesse never dyno tuned my car due to his location) I took matters into my own hands and started tuning my own car. The point of this thread was to share my experience with not only other injectors that the seller of said injectors said to just interpolate the data (way F'ing wrong) but with a product that did what it was supposed to and came with all the data that I as Dsteck stated being a novice tuner could input and also some articles for me to understand what they do (not just copy paste and pray).

No offense to Jesse but he is selling as well, he is stating that $800 is way too much for injectors and his injectors he also provides data with. No one once stated he didn't know how to tune, this is simply a technical debate that is enlightening for those who wish to read by guys that know WAY more than we do about tuning.

CTSV4now
03-16-11, 01:31 PM
so bottom line is................. make sure your tuner is competent?

As a consumer, I just want my vehicle to run properly if I decide to add more HP. I still get conflicting answers when it comes to "when do I need to change the stock injectors".

The more I research, the more I get confused.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 01:44 PM
It varies for mod to mod and environment, I was reaching over 85% duty cycle with a 9.5" pulley, headers, ported frontdrive and CAI. If you plan on doing your mods in stages or the bug bites you, why not just make sure you have the headroom. The biggest thing I learned while tuning is without the right fueling the rest is a total crap shoot.

I think I am good to about a 900+rwhp with the ID850's with great idle quality. I even let it get nice and hot (133f IAT2's) and it idled like a dream. Warmer climates really need good fuel control at idle.

I even ran it in openloop and idle was rock solid.

I can not even begin to tell you all the issues that I have had with this car since July of last year... 4 tuners in 2 states couldn't figure it out. In the end it was all about fueling, incorrect fueling that is

DrumStix
03-16-11, 02:26 PM
Wow, I've been away a couple days. Very good debate going on here it seems. Time for me to read and hopefully respond later this evening.

DrumStix
03-16-11, 03:05 PM
Send me 1 injector then, your choice of size and type. If im right on every thing you want me to answer within 1% you will send me 10k??? I can do resolutions down to .01 on voltage, 1psi of fuel pressure from 0 to 120. even do Offsets based on voltage spikes, ect... , what ever you would like to know. ;) Fuel stuff is simple. Just like the software that controls it all......
I can even make it more complicated for you and base it on Hardware varience on what ECM type you are using. Using the actual injector driver on board of a production controller for a specific application. I can do it with E38, e67, e78, E40, p59, p12, p10, p08, ect, pretty much any gm ecm i have here.

And if you want me to do the direct injection injector that could be done as well, but it would have to be data based on production fuel pressures as i would have to use a production setup to monitor it all... Due to the 2000 psi rail pressure potential...

Also To clarify things here. oem GM calibrators are the ones that lower line pressure on the fuel system at idle in the factory setup., So if it is ok for them and it passes emissions and thier extreme durability tests, that way and works just fine for them in all thier tests as well, then i will continue to use thier methods.. There are millions and millions of cars and trucks following the same tuning structure with perfect success.. 30psi is not going to hurt anything.



No injector set is worth 880 bucks.. none... You can get any injector set you want flowmatched from any bulk injector place like racetronics in canada that will do the same thing for alot cheaper.... Tables are tables. If you put in the right tables in the software it dont matter where you get them, they will work.

Well i don't know about all of that. Tires are tires, women are women and, well, tuners are tuners. All is equal?
Materials used? Mean time between failures, seals, plungers, springs, nozzles, all the same materials, quality and precision? We know that not to be the case with ANY moving part or electronics. What about support received?
Why all of the notes on the unrelated ECM base functionality notes? Tuning occurs way above that.

I like new ideas and not one person has all of the answers. If one thinks so, I can type a note the length of my arm, and I have long arms.

A $10K bet? I mean really? Damon, send him a STM injector. You will be 10K richer. :thumbsup:

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 03:09 PM
The STM Inj are being acryliced like a snowglobe for a paper weight. Pauls suggestion :-)

DrumStix
03-16-11, 03:16 PM
Ahhhh, good solution.

DrumStix
03-16-11, 03:17 PM
wait4me you make some good points. I just went to your website. WOW did not realize you were Jesse Bubb!!!. I have no idea why anyone would argue with you on tuning. I would say you forgot more than most of these guys know. Saw you at PRI.. keep up the good work.. And guys listen to him and stop believing the stuff from injector salesmen.. They sound like the Used corvette salesmen that work here. They always have an answer!

Welcome to the community. More realizations coming your way.

Paul Yaw
03-16-11, 04:31 PM
hey guys new here, but just traded my 09 Z06 for the ctsv.. Love the car. I had ID 1000 in my z. Just would like you to know about them. Yes they are
expensive, yes they come with data and yes the are a modified stock injector. All they do is machine the tip off the bottom at a presice angle that exposes the ball seat.. Paul stop kidding everyone that you Invented these. These are stock injectors... I work for Scoggin Dickey so I know what a stock injector looks like. Putting a laser ID on the injector does not mean you make it or invented anything. Oh yeah, the tune I got with them needed a ton of work to bring the trims in right. Sorry that im not thrilled after spending nearly 1000 bucks for a set LOL I plan on doing some mods to the CTSV shortly. Keep you informed

I have not claimed to invent anything except the equipment I use to characterize the injectors.

I do not put laser ID's on injectors.

I state clearly on the front page of the ID website that we sell modified injectors. This has never been a secret.

We do not provide "tunes" we provide injector chracterization values to be used as an integral part of your tune.

If you feel the characterization data you received is incorrect, give me an opportunity to confirm, or correct it if necessary. Maybe you received the wrong data, or possibly applied it incorrectly. I will be happy to work with you to figure it out.

If that option does not appeal to you, send them back, with a receipt for a full refund.

If you have any technical questions about the injectors or the data you received, I would be glad to answer them here.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 04:41 PM
"send them back, with a receipt for a full refund."

Thats solid

ctsvandme
03-16-11, 05:21 PM
sorry paul I sold the vette to buy the CTSV, the guy that bought it took it to Henderson and he is very happy now. Thanks anyway

Luna.
03-16-11, 10:37 PM
What a joke...phxtrode should feel bad for spending $880? Absolutely unreal... :banghead:

Phxtrode--Glad to see that you like your injectors. How tall are they? Over 2"?


Like lambs to the slaughter... Lol.

The injector information that has been laid out is irrefutable.

:histeric::histeric:

DSteck
03-16-11, 10:50 PM
What a joke...phxtrode should feel bad for spending $880? Absolutely unreal... :banghead:

Phxtrode--Glad to see that you like your injectors. How tall are they? Over 2"?
They are 34mm o-ring to o-ring... A direct replacement for OEM injectors. I've got a strand of ID850s sitting right here, actually.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x393/dsxtuning/ID850.jpg

Luna.
03-16-11, 10:55 PM
They are 34mm o-ring to o-ring... A direct replacement for OEM injectors. I've got a strand of ID850s sitting right here, actually.

Is it easy to determine what the total length is? My application is very specific and I'm just curious if I can get a injector that flows, say, 92+, yet be no longer than 2" overall.

DSteck
03-16-11, 11:03 PM
I just measured one, and the total overall longest dimension is 1 15/16".

Luna.
03-16-11, 11:10 PM
I just measured one, and the total overall longest dimension is 1 15/16".

Thank you very much. I shall look into these further. :worship:

DSteck
03-16-11, 11:27 PM
If you have any other questions, just let me know. I'd respond to your PM, but I can't because I don't have a high enough post count.

PhxTriode
03-16-11, 11:43 PM
Is it easy to determine what the total length is? My application is very specific and I'm just curious if I can get a injector that flows, say, 92+, yet be no longer than 2" overall.

They flow at 92 if you are still using factory 4 bar pressure. They also have 1000cc, 1600cc and 2000cc (mine are 880cc)

If it is say to fit... oh I don't know maybe a Magnuson setup. Find out what injectors fit that setup and get ahold of Dsteck they may have a direct fitment if other than stock.

I am happy with my injectors thank you very much. First tank of gas through them +1mpg and that is driving like I stole it.

When you datalog every mile you drive (what can I say Im a freak) and you watch fuel trims swing even though the averages look good with stock injectors, deca's or drilled then you put these in and watch them have half the variance... Says alot about fuel control especially as power levels go up. Im just sayin

Luna.
03-16-11, 11:54 PM
They flow at 92 if you are still using factory 4 bar pressure. They also have 1000cc, 1600cc and 2000cc (mine are 880cc)

If it is say to fit... oh I don't know maybe a Magnuson setup. Find out what injectors fit that setup and get ahold of Dsteck they may have a direct fitment if other than stock.

I am happy with my injectors thank you very much. First tank of gas through them +1mpg and that is driving like I stole it.

When you datalog every mile you drive (what can I say Im a freak) and you watch fuel trims swing even though the averages look good with stock injectors, deca's or drilled then you put these in and watch them have half the variance... Says alot about fuel control especially as power levels go up. Im just sayin

Thanks bud. I'm definitely going to investigate further--these injectors sound VERY interesting...

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 12:01 AM
If you have any user questions let me know, but Dsteck and Paul are the go to guys for technical on these.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 12:32 AM
I must so be stupid or something. Tell me why a stock ls3 injector with the bottom machined off and the flow modified to 85 lbs is something so special that they cost 880 a set. What am I missing here? or are you guys just lay downs. I think its the tune not the injector that makes the car run right. Theres no majic injector and I just cannot see the value here.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 12:41 AM
You have stated that earlier and are now repeating yourself. And now I will repeat myself, this thread is about my experience and then went into a technical debate.

Agree, disagree don't think they are worth it?

Don't buy them

DSteck
03-17-11, 12:47 AM
I must so be stupid or something. Tell me why a stock ls3 injector with the bottom machined off and the flow modified to 85 lbs is something so special that they cost 880 a set. What am I missing here? or are you guys just lay downs. I think its the tune not the injector that makes the car run right. Theres no majic injector and I just cannot see the value here.
Have you ever tuned a car? You can't "tune for injectors" like so many people claim. You can build the error into other tables like the VE or MAF calibration, but you can't dial in the short pulse adder and voltage offsets. That has to be done off the vehicle with specialized equipment meant specifically for that task.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/GMDATA.html
http://www.injectordynamics.com/DrillbitsAndDipshits.html
http://www.injectordynamics.com/LowPulseTech.html

The second link will outline this topic the best for you. Characterizing an injector is a process that involves defining the voltage offsets and short pulse adders required to transform a calculated pulsewidth into an actual delivered pulsewidth. When you modify an injector, the response curve changes dramatically, thus throwing the data for an unmodified injector out the window and making it not applicable anymore.

You're right, there's no magic injector... Just a carefully matched set of fully characterized injectors.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 01:48 AM
nice articles, maybe you can help me understand something. I am not a good tuner, and am willing to learn new things. I still dont understand how you come up with these charts. They look like they were drawn with a mouse. So whos to argue with you, In other words in your opinionnthere is no injector sold but yours that will work right because only you have these numbers. I really have a hard time believing that. Here at Scoggin we have all the best test equipment available. Your injectors are really no dfferent than a drilled injector.. looks like you take the difuser plate off and expose the ball seat at a dimention that produced 1 big hole. I had your injectors in my vette and thats what it looked like to me. Furthermore, If you difuse the fuel through a plate its still after the ball seat. so common sence says whats the difference. If you know what it flows and you know what it was modified from, the offsets should be just a mathematical formula. With the data i got from you the low pulse adder is nothing more than an adjustment for the extra fuel flow. The ID1000 I had flows 95lbs, you had approx 54% adder on the low pulse numbers if I remember correctly. Isn't that the difference of what you grew the injector when you modified it? I sell the base injector you used, it is for the GT500 and is like a 47 at 2.5bar. All the charts and stuff on the ID website is just justification for a higher price and as far as im concerned, propaganda. Maybe that guy from wait 4 me can chime in and explain it in a real easy way that a dummy like me can understand. I think thats a fair question and request because you explain it in your own lingo and for me to believe what you are saying is very confusing but, believable to everyone. Don't take this as a bash, I would just like to understand where you are coming from.

DSteck
03-17-11, 09:30 AM
I am on my phone right now, but if I call Scoggin Dickey, who can I ask to speak to so that this can be explained? I don't want to spell this all out on my phone.

That data does not come from me. I do not work for Injector Dynamics. Paul Yaw generates that data, and he must do well enough with it because Vortech uses him to help get emissions certifications, and Greg Banish promotes his equipment.

Scoggin Dickey does NOT have the equipment to characterize injectors.

Every OEM vehicle has this data generated. But you are right... Injector Dynamics is the only aftermarket injector supplier that provides this data. No other aftermarket injectors will work as well as these.

wait4me
03-17-11, 11:20 AM
I had a look at the charts on that group of pages. The graphs are just blended based on multiple points and then interpolated from point to point. They look fine. The funny stuff is that there is some info on it that just makes things look worse than it really is. For one, With a fuel system like we have on these cars, we can target fuel pressure to what ever we want. WITH THAT WE HAVE CONTROL OF PULSE WIDTH TARGETS ON OUR INJECTORS. If you look at the graphs, you can see where there is a leading edge of instability with every injector at low pulse widths. So the key is to maintain a larger pulsewidth with ANY injector so it can control fuel better. If you are idling with to large of an injector, and to high of fuel pressure, it will require you to have such a low commanded millisecond pulse width that it will start to flutter and not fire every event like the computer is requesting. So by lowering that main fuel pressure, you are effectively changing the fuel injector size again, to allow for a larger more stable pulsewidth. The only benefit of having the right data in there is for low idling conditions, as you go up in the rpms at wot, the error vs actual goes away as long as you compensate for the size change. No big deal and is why EVERYONE from the 80s till now has done ok tuning thier cars for wot on every car out there before you guys came to be....

However being technical and all, My question then is this, :) The tables you would be providing are only valid for a set fuel pressure, as fuel pressure is a direct effecting factor on all of that data you are giving everyone. How are you re-compensating for the info that needs to be changed on our cars when this happens as it jumps from different pressure to pressure???

Also how about on a boost reference fuel pressure regulator setup that moves fuel pressure from 3 bar all the way to 5bar at wot and regular driving is in between, as used on alot of larger engines.......

Everything would have to be tweeked and blended for the application that it is in, that is just the way life is.. No perfect world exsists, no hardware is going to be the same.

Every computer uses different injector drivers and electronics, "this effects injector performance greatly" every car sits at a different slight voltage varience, every car charges slightly different, every battery has a different charged state, every fuel temperature in every car may be different, every car may consist of a slightly different percentage of fuel quality and ingredients, "this alone effects you a ton". ect and the list goes on........

DSteck
03-17-11, 12:03 PM
In response to your first paragraph:
Short pulse adder is what makes up for the deviation from linear response at low pulse width. Yes, in a CTS-V you can modify fuel pressure to run the injector at a higher pulsewidth to get a desired fuel mass without operating in the non linear region. This doesn't fix the voltage offset issue though, so you end up compensating for that error in the airflow models, both MAF calibration and volumetric efficiency. People have been making things work, but that doesn't make it perfect. You won't find CARB certifications on systems using uncharacterized injectors. Back to manipulating fuel pressure though... What should somebody with a Corvette Z06 do, who doesn't have control over fuel pressure and is stuck with mechanically regulated 58psi in the rail?

In response to your second, third, and fourth paragraphs:
Paul provides the voltage offset data, which is collected at an array of system voltages and differential pressures. That takes care of offset data at varying pressures that you talked about. He also provides the injector flow rate based on differential pressure, so now that's taken care of at varying pressures you talked about. GM's operating system for LSx engines doesn't have short pulse vs. injector pressure delta, so that data is generated at 58psi.

You do understand the difference between rail pressure and effective pressure, right? Let's take a standard Corvtte system for example. Pressure inside the rail is ALWAYS 58 psi. However, during idle, MAP gets down to around 30kPA, which is roughly a 10psi vacuum. Because of this vacuum in the manifold, fuel gets literally pulled out of the injector. This manifold vacuum plus the rail pressure gives an effective pressure, also known as the injector delta pressure. For this scenario, effective pressure ramps up to 68psi. This is taken care of with the IFR table in the PCM. The PCM knows that when the engine is drawing X amount of vacuum, the flow rate increases. At WOT on a naturally aspirated engine, the MAP hits 99-100kPa, resulting in no vacuum on the rail. In this case, effective pressure is 0psi from the manifold plus 58psi from the rail, for a total of 58psi. If we had 10psi boost, effective pressure is 58-10 for a total of 48psi. Again, this is all compensated for with the IFR table as the PCM registers different manifold pressures (while assuming the pump can maintain 58psi in the rail).

However, when you convert to a vacuum/boost referenced fuel system, suddenly your effective pressure is ALWAYS equal to your base pressure. That's how the regulator works... When the manifold is pulling 10psi vacuum, it is dropping rail pressure by 10psi. With 58psi base pressure, the rail pressure drops to 48psi, but the manifold vacuum of 10psi helps pull the fuel out, resulting in 58psi effective pressure. At 10psi boost, the regulator is raising rail pressure to 68psi, but the boost in the manifold resists the incoming fuel, so again... 68-10 gives us 58psi effective pressure. For return style systems with a boost references regulator, it is common practice to set the flow rate to the same value at every pressure in the IFR table, because we will ALWAYS be operating at an effective pressure equal to the base pressure. The same goes for the voltage offset data... Everything from the column pertaining to base pressure is carried over into every other column.

The concept of effective pressure is what helps define injector flow rate. The pressure differential across an orifice is the driving force that determines flow rate through a given orifice size. This is basic fluid dynamics. No values have to be tweaked, it is just a matter of applying the data properly.

Buck-boost regulators help mitigate these voltage issues you talk about, but even so... Varying voltages are covered by the voltage offset table, so that is a moot point.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 12:30 PM
very cool, so to ask a question. If the offsets are the same for a variable injector, as you discussed and the pressure changes as you drive like in our cars. Is the injector actually changing size also? if so WTF is the big deal with these offsets anyway.

PGA2B
03-17-11, 12:31 PM
Nice to see you here spreading the knowledge Steck!

P.S. Thanks for your help on the HP Tuner Forum....

wait4me
03-17-11, 12:34 PM
Going back to the basics. A stock modified injector is a stock modified injector, no matter where you get it from or who, or how much you pay. With the right values put into the injector tables for that said injector after its modification, you will have the same fueling consistancy and results thru the entire operating range of that injector as with anyone elses. Yes you have to modify the tables in the controller you are using, but that ONE company is NOT the only place out there that has that type of information, or ability to get it.. Like the people that ACTUALLY DEVELOPED THE INJECTORS AND MADE THEM ORIGINALLY would have that data as well since they are the PEOPLE THAT MADE THEM from theory, to paper, to a actual real physical part...... That is my exact final point.


The car in question could have been tuned using the correct data for the injectors and would have worked just fine. If a tuner dont understand that and didnt modify those tables correctly, then of course the car is going to run bad.. It isnt the injectors fault, it is the tuner itself for lack of knowledge ..... The end.

DSteck
03-17-11, 12:42 PM
very cool, so to ask a question. If the offsets are the same for a variable injector, as you discussed and the pressure changes as you drive like in our cars. Is the injector actually changing size also? if so WTF is the big deal with these offsets anyway.
Offsets are not the same. An injector will have a different offset if you change the operating delta pressure and/or the voltage. That's why the offset table is three dimensional with system voltage and pressure as the axis labels. The injector isn't changing size. The flow rate just changes based on effective pressure. Turn on your kitchen sink just a crack. Now turn it on all the way. Flow changes, correct? This scenario would be where the IFR table comes into play. Keep in mind the IFR table defines the flow rate of the injector if the injector is just held open. That doesn't happen... A pulsewidth is applied to open it for a short burst based on what the PCM calculates that it needs. If the PCM says it needs a 4ms pulsewidth, it will add the voltage offset because it takes time for the injector to energeize and actually open. These offset values are important for making sure that the PCM (and consequently the injectors) can deliver an accurate amount of fuel, regardless of the voltage or injector pressure delta. They help make the system predictable... Kind of like the scope on a rifle.

You know that at 300 feet, a bullet will drop a certain amount. At 600 feet, it will drop more. At 900 feet, even farther. Knowing this drop allows you to make a kill shot from any distance. This is how offset works.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 01:04 PM
Going back to the basics. A stock modified injector is a stock modified injector, no matter where you get it from or who, or how much you pay. With the right values put into the injector tables for that said injector after its modification, you will have the same fueling consistancy and results thru the entire operating range of that injector as with anyone elses. Yes you have to modify the tables in the controller you are using, but that ONE company is NOT the only place out there that has that type of information, or ability to get it.. Like the people that ACTUALLY DEVELOPED THE INJECTORS AND MADE THEM ORIGINALLY would have that data as well since they are the PEOPLE THAT MADE THEM from theory, to paper, to a actual real physical part...... That is my exact final point.

The car in question could have been tuned using the correct data for the injectors and would have worked just fine. If a tuner dont understand that and didnt modify those tables correctly, then of course the car is going to run bad.. It isnt the injectors fault, it is the tuner itself for lack of knowledge ..... The end.



I still don't believe by just drilling out an injector that fuel atomization will be the same as stock at the same delta pressure and pulsewidth regardless of the data stuffed into the tune. The other question would also be what fuel or fluid were they characterized at?

I can gladly send you the drilled POS injectors and supply you with the flow rating that was provided and see if you can get them to run good. Again not doubting you ability to tune but I still dont think drilled injectors are even close to being equal, yes with the right data they will work but I think there is some resolution loss in control.

wait4me
03-17-11, 01:37 PM
The fluid used to flow the injectors is not fuel on the bench. It is what ever the person testing the injectors prefers to use. Each fluid type has its limitations and is not exact to fuel composition.. Also the equipment they use also determines what they can use as a fluid. Running fuel thru them while testing is not safe at all. Even when used in an explosion resistant testing setup. Which most do not have. N Heptane and other fluids are used in testing depending on what the tester wants to spend on fluids and if they want to be able to reuse it or not between testing of other injectors.

The percentage of alcohol in your local fuel even plays on things. As well as ambient fuel temperatures... Something that can not be sensed by the ecm... Only guessed.

When i go over seas in silverstone, Those guys with multi million dollar shops all have top of the line awsome test equipment for everything and anything, and got to play with some stuff they have there. It is amazing what they get to buy when they have no spending limits.... Then you get more data then your mind can handle... Just like for thier shocks, and every other moving part on the car...

wait4me
03-17-11, 01:43 PM
Phx send the injectors ill buy them from you as ill use them in something here. Not sure where you guys got them from but as long as they started as lsa cores, ill take them.

DSteck
03-17-11, 01:58 PM
For your information, ID actually flows their injectors with gasoline. There's two reasons that N Heptane is good to use, but SAE even says it's not representative of gasoline. Bosch even recommends using a fluid representative of what will actually be run to develop data.

I'm not sure why unrelated points keep getting brought up when the meat and potatoes of this discussion is the importance of short pulse adder and voltage offset data, and how they change when an injector is modified.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 02:31 PM
Phx send the injectors ill buy them from you as ill use them in something here. Not sure where you guys got them from but as long as they started as lsa cores, ill take them.

Will do but I even think the static flow data is bad. You still ok with that?

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 02:32 PM
For your information, ID actually flows their injectors with gasoline. There's two reasons that N Heptane is good to use, but SAE even says it's not representative of gasoline. Bosch even recommends using a fluid representative of what will actually be run to develop data.

I'm not sure why unrelated points keep getting brought up when the meat and potatoes of this discussion is the importance of short pulse adder and voltage offset data, and how they change when an injector is modified.

That one was my bad, I brought it up in relation to the accuracy of data if two injectors are measured with diferent mediums it would skew results.

DSteck
03-17-11, 02:36 PM
That one was my bad, I brought it up in relation to the accuracy of data if two injectors are measured with diferent mediums it would skew results.
That wasn't the only instance. My statement was pretty generalized for numerous posts in this thread.

Anyway, I'll be checking in if people still have questions. I can't give you winning lottery numbers or tell you the meaning of life, but will do my best to answer anything else.

Paul Yaw
03-17-11, 03:04 PM
I have said from the begining, that, with the correct tables put into the software ANY injector will work just fine and that the injector company in question is not the only company out there that has valid data to put into software to make injectors work

Who else is providing this data? Please show us this data, and the response curves used to generate it.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 03:32 PM
Guys lets not get yet another thread closed please...

Debates are healthy for understanding more but lets keep it civil.

I don't want to be associated with another closed thread and be labeled as a sh*t disturber... well at least by anyone who hasn't met me :-)

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 03:54 PM
is there any way we can see a test in action from ID, all the bells and whisles they have described on their website must have a picture or two somewhere. i can not believe they flow injectors with gasoline, that would be very cool to me. Just because they say they do it must be true, no salesmanship here or BS im sure.. I hope I dont get fired for this but Our 60 point used car check up and certification is actually 20 points. LOL..

DSteck
03-17-11, 04:25 PM
LUNA again re read EVERY one of my posts in this thread. The only late night mistake i put in was in the post 15 where i missed a 1. in front of the numbers. It was late, i was tired... That is it i even posted that. No where have i ever said anything else on this subject that is not valid. I have said everything correctly besides that one typo in that few posts on the 1.4 ms and the others in post 15, and some spelling from typing to quickly... The 1.4 ms makes sense as to why i brought up the fuel pressure dropping that the stock system does to bring the pulse width numbers up to that area for better fueling control.
I've shown each time you mentioned an injector pulse width below 1ms in the following quote. This makes it hard to believe that it was just a typo, and makes me inclined to think that you actually thought the injector was operating at that pulsewidth.

An injector sprays just fine at .6 ms..
The reason you need would ever need to be .4 is that that injector is WAY to big for your application and fuel usage.

Just a fyi, A stock injector on your lsa will go down to .4194 ms smoothly on a scope @ 13.4 volts and a stock impedence driver without a noticable hickup on the screen.. So if punched out to 100lb per hour, it would still be able to go down to .4194 pulsewidth just fine. Most of the time though, you want higher pulsewidths, like around .6 - .8 for idle conditions.




Just like in ANY thread i said not said anything about not having to mess with pulse adders of voltage offsets, obviously they are important. I have said from the begining, that, with the correct tables put into the software ANY injector will work just fine and that the injector company in question is not the only company out there that has valid data to put into software to make injectors work... Re read my posts, then re read my posts,

Re read my posts...

But i guess you are right again luna.. Even though you have no clue what we are even talking about...
I think you need to stop for a minute and look back at what you've said in this thread. Specifically:

Also remember when you are modifying the stock injector, all they are doing it opening up the head of the injector allowing more fuel to flow thru at a givin time. That DOES NOT CHANGE its "electric guts" to make it perform any faster or slower. That stays the same. You are just changing the volumes....
If you were as well versed in injector functionality and calibration as you are claiming to be, you'd recognize that the voltage offset and short pulse adder does indeed change when an injector's flow rate is modified. Changing the orifice surely doesn't change the internals of the injector, but it definitely changes the shape of the response curve, which drives the recollection of voltage offset and short pulse adder numbers so that the modified injector functions as intended. On one hand, you're preaching that proper injector data will make any injector work out (which is a half truth, because the injectors need to be properly matched based on not only flow rate, but also similar response time). Let's ignore the precise matching and focus just on the data side for now. Manufacturers provide this data for some applications. The keyword here is some. OEM applications have that data. Ford has a group of larger injectors that the data exists for, which Greg Banish has converted to work in GM calibration definitions. FAST injectors, for example, don't have this data generated. Nobody took the time to come up with it. The same goes for redrilled injectors and a host of other Bosch, Siemens, etc. injectors.

Having said that, how are you deriving this injector calibration data without actually having the specialized test equipment to do this? It cannot be generated in a car based on what some tuner feels to work best. The only accurate way to come up with the data is to test it in a special rig. This is what the OEMs do, and this is what Injector Dynamics does. Nobody else does. Let me repeat that... Nobody else does. You have stated repeatedly that you will drop fuel pressure to bring an injector up into the linear range, but have neglected to respond when I asked what to do with a vehicle that doesn't have a fuel pressure control module to do this, and is stuck with a static 58psi in the rail. Seeing you say that you drop fuel pressure makes me question whether you even care about the short pulse data, even though you say the data is important. If you just drop fuel pressure, why bother trying to fudge values for short pulse ranges? Either way, trying to tweak them in the tune is a hack, at best, and will never provide the predictability that full dynamic characterization will.

Back to the basics though, you are intent that a modified injector doesn't change the voltage offset or short pulse adder, but it's become exceedingly clear to me that you most likely don't fully understand how this data is generated. Paul's articles help to remove a lot of the mystery in how an injector is characterized, and are meant to educate readers to appreciate the importance of injector data. If you look in the Drillbits article, you can see a graph of an unmodified vs. modified fuel injector with a white overlay line on each graph. The difference between 0 and where that white line intercepts the X axis is the voltage offset. Do you see how it changes drastically from the unmodified to modified injector? The short pulse adder is derived from the difference between the white line and the actual response curve (in the X direction). The article clearly shows how both characterization aspects change quite drastically, right in the area that matters for idle.

The bottom line is that the injector data provided with ID brand injectors is a large driving force behind their ability to provide reliable and predictable fueling in any operating condition. If you take injectors from a factory calibration and throw them in, chances are this data exists. If you take injectors that have been cut up, drilled out, or are just some big aftermarket injectors from a random company, the data won't exist because these companies don't bother pursue it. The fact remains that Injector Dynamics is the only company collecting this data to provide large injectors of superior operating caliber. Please point me to an injector supplier giving out actual flow data taken at multiple operating pressures in addition to voltage offset and short pulse adder data that isn't stolen from Injector Dynamics (like Xspurt injectors).



To ctsvandme, please tell me who to ask for at Scoggin Dickey. I'd like to discuss this over the phone with you. I've grown tired of the hidden stabs that stem from your lack of understanding on this and would like to settle this in real time to help you. Jesse has clearly stated that the data is integral in making injectors work... So I'm not sure why you're sitting here downplaying the importance of the work that Injector Dynamics does.

Paul Yaw
03-17-11, 04:27 PM
is there any way we can see a test in action from ID, all the bells and whisles they have described on their website must have a picture or two somewhere. i can not believe they flow injectors with gasoline, that would be very cool to me. Just because they say they do it must be true, no salesmanship here or BS im sure.. I hope I dont get fired for this but Our 60 point used car check up and certification is actually 20 points. LOL..

Call me a liar, and ask for a shop tour in the same paragraph?

I've been polite, non combative, and have offered to answer any technical questions.

Paul Yaw
03-17-11, 04:54 PM
Needed one more post to be able to post a picture, so I broke it into two.


is there any way we can see a test in action from ID, all the bells and whisles they have described on their website must have a picture or two somewhere. i can not believe they flow injectors with gasoline, that would be very cool to me. Just because they say they do it must be true, no salesmanship here or BS im sure.. I hope I dont get fired for this but Our 60 point used car check up and certification is actually 20 points. LOL..

To continue, I am willing to answer any technical questions about injector characterization, but I am not willing to chase someone around until the water is so dirty that no one can see anything.

If you reduce the conversation to claims that I am lying, there is no point in going further. We can all just claim that the other guy is lying, no matter what he says.

I am willing to back my claims with data and reason.

You said my graphs look like they were drawn with a mouse, inferring that the entire concept was simply made up.

The two screen captures below come from 22, and 24 year old SAE papers. Note the response curves and linearity plots. This is what we provide on the ID website, and the entire injector characterization is based on these curves, whether it comes from me, Ford, GM, Bosch, etc.

This is an industry standard. It only seems foreign to you because it is an industry you have no knowledge of.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/SAE1.gif

http://www.injectordynamics.com/SAE2.gif

This is clearly not new, and these papers are in the public domain. You can download these, and many more from the SAE website if you truly are interested in learning.

We are bringing existing technology to the aftermarket, and the fact that you are unaware of this technology does not make it untrue, or "made up" just to sell a product.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 05:07 PM
hey paul not calling you a lier at all. But, I have bought your product. I think I WAY overpaid. Thats my fault not yours. I have been watching the forums for a few years and never see anything on the actual shop or equipment you have. I'm sorry that I am asking and becoming anoying to you. I think all those bells and whistles are sales tools. I also know the guys at FAST, they sell a ton of injectors. People tune them as we do here. They work fine. They also sell modified injectors and tell me you cannot make a 4 hole EV14 flow 880 cc like you say you did in your comparison. If you drill the 4 holes big enough to flow 880cc, the holes run into each other and you have nothing. What peas me off is that no one questions you because they can't talk your lingo. Ya know why they can't speek it? Its because you made up the language. Hence Injector Characterization and Dynamic testing. Truth is I want the truth. Plain and simple. I feel this is not a bash but you get to offencive when someone questions you. From what I hear Jesse Bubb knows more about tuning GM computers than just about anyone in the country. Give the guy some respect!

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 05:15 PM
just one more question, you say the document is 24 yrs old and its an industry standard. Fig 3 shows data on the ev14.. According to Bosch's website the EV14 was released in 2001.. So you are saying in 1986 they saw the future?

Paul Yaw
03-17-11, 05:16 PM
hey paul not calling you a lier at all. But, I have bought your product. I think I WAY overpaid. Thats my fault not yours. I have been watching the forums for a few years and never see anything on the actual shop or equipment you have. I'm sorry that I am asking and becoming anoying to you. I think all those bells and whistles are sales tools. I also know the guys at FAST, they sell a ton of injectors. People tune them as we do here. They work fine. They also sell modified injectors and tell me you cannot make a 4 hole EV14 flow 880 cc like you say you did in your comparison. If you drill the 4 holes big enough to flow 880cc, the holes run into each other and you have nothing. What peas me off is that no one questions you because they can't talk your lingo. Ya know why they can't speek it? Its because you made up the language. Hence Injector Characterization and Dynamic testing. Truth is I want the truth. Plain and simple. I feel this is not a bash but you get to offencive when someone questions you. From what I hear Jesse Bubb knows more about tuning GM computers than just about anyone in the country. Give the guy some respect!

The "lingo" can be found here: http://www.sae.org/ and anyone claiming to be an injector expert should be able to speak it.

Paul Yaw
03-17-11, 05:17 PM
just one more question, you say the document is 24 yrs old and its an industry standard. Fig 3 shows data on the ev14.. According to Bosch's website the EV14 was released in 2001.. So you are saying in 1986 they saw the future?


It says one point four, not fourteen.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 05:29 PM
ctsvandme,

Not to be combative but the terms used are comon and even used in the tables for tuning software

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 05:36 PM
again Im no genius, just I ask alot and want proof. I asked about things and get side steped, then the ID army comes in and forms a front line. So wheres the pics and videos of how you do all this? I think this is a fair question and I would think by the amount on PM's I got about the subject So why wont you answer and show us instead of posting 24yr old documents..

DSteck
03-17-11, 05:37 PM
Are you going to ignore my offer? I'm willing to discuss this in laymen's terms with you.

People make mystery injectors work by compensating for that error in other sections of the tune, like the airflow models. When using characterized injectors, the engine runs much smoother, tuning becomes much easier, and the engine's operation stops deviating when variables shift.

Many people believed for years that the world was flat. Do you think it is flat? Paul posted information straight from an injector manufacturer as well as SAE information, and you're sill sitting here claiming he is making things up. That's pretty childish and ignorant. Find some facts that he is wrong instead of making unfounded accusations, snarky replies, and attempted name dropping. You work for Scoggin as if that is pertinent. I worked for Chrysler as a powertrain engineer. I spent a lot of time at Jeep/Truck Engineering because I was in the Body-On-Frame group.

"From what I hear..."
"From what I'm told..."

Parrots make great pets! Don't get too close, though... They may bite.

PhxTriode
03-17-11, 05:41 PM
again Im no genius, just I ask alot and want proof. I asked about things and get side steped, then the ID army comes in and forms a front line. So wheres the pics and videos of how you do all this? I think this is a fair question and I would think by the amount on PM's I got about the subject So why wont you answer and show us instead of posting 24yr old documents..

It just dawned on me when you said 4 holes drilled, are you positive that what you purchased were indeed ID's and not some hack injectors that I have been reading about claiming to be ID's.

The reason I ask is my 880cc ID's do not have 4 holes it is an altogether different tip.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 05:50 PM
im sorry buddy, I guess me and you don't see eye to eye. The whole point of this thread was that th OP said he finally found a set of injectors that his car likes. Thats fine except I had the same ones and my car did not like them. With your data. Now the car got tuned by cory henderson and runs perfectly. I know this because I sold it to a co worker. My caddy is going to need injectors. I refuse to spend 880 for a set of injectors that cost us 220 off the shelf (its the same one you buy to make your ID1000, please don't lie about that). I can then have your tips machined on them for about 200 and I have the same injector. But, all I asked you to do is justify the price with backup that you have this elaborate equipment that cost 100's of thousands and no one else can possiby have this stuff. Even a multi million dollar shop like we have here at Scoggin. So you keep on truckin and I will keeep telling our customers to shop around. Fair enough? I'm done posting untill I get my new engine

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 05:51 PM
It just dawned on me when you said 4 holes drilled, are you positive that what you purchased were indeed ID's and not some hack injectors that I have been reading about claiming to be ID's.

The reason I ask is my 880cc ID's do not have 4 holes it is an altogether different tip.i read the four hole thing from IDs website on their comparison.. They even shoe a pic of a drilled injector but it has 6 holes.. Their text says four..

the 1000's i had were machined to a tip, at a precise angle, no big deal doing that

DSteck
03-17-11, 05:56 PM
Also, ID doesn't redrill the orifice plate. Doing this can result in some holes shooting out a laser beam of laminar fuel. That's not a good thing.

JimmyH
03-17-11, 06:03 PM
ok, I am not going to pretend to understand any of what you guys are talking about in this thread :lol:

I do understand all the bullcrap posts that have been made though, which are now gone.

Even though the only thing I understand about injectors is that they squirt fuel into the engine, I understand you got a healthy debate here. So keep it that way.


Next off topic post in this thread gets an infraction.

ctsvandme
03-17-11, 06:12 PM
Also, ID doesn't redrill the orifice plate. Doing this can result in some holes shooting out a laser beam of laminar fuel. That's not a good thing.they dont drill them, they machine the bottom untill the plate disapears and the ball seat is exposed. You think that is something new? Thats been around since the ls2 showed up in 05..I would like to see a comparison on a flow bench

DSteck
03-17-11, 06:28 PM
It isn't anything new. Nobody ever claimed it was. The data and precise matching of the injectors is the brunt of what makes the injectors work as well as they do. Other injectors very well may flow just as well. That doesn't mean they will perform like IDs.

I'd still like to discuss this on the phone with you. I promise Scoggin doesn't have the equipment to develop this data, otherwise the shop would.

BG-SDPC
03-17-11, 07:09 PM
hey guys new here, but just traded my 09 Z06 for the ctsv.. Love the car. I had ID 1000 in my z. Just would like you to know about them. Yes they are
expensive, yes they come with data and yes the are a modified stock injector. All they do is machine the tip off the bottom at a presice angle that exposes the ball seat.. Paul stop kidding everyone that you Invented these. These are stock injectors... I work for Scoggin Dickey so I know what a stock injector looks like. Putting a laser ID on the injector does not mean you make it or invented anything. Oh yeah, the tune I got with them needed a ton of work to bring the trims in right. Sorry that im not thrilled after spending nearly 1000 bucks for a set LOL I plan on doing some mods to the CTSV shortly. Keep you informed

Not really sure who you are but we don't have anyone at Scoggin Dickey that has a CTSV so stop posting that you work here.

Luna.
03-17-11, 07:29 PM
I'm willing to discuss this in laymen's terms with you.



The reason that I'm very interested in these injectors is largely because of fitment issues I have with my current configuration, which fall well short of any other potential advantages that exist with these injectors.

Based on the above, can you (or Paul for that matter) summarize the advantages of these injectors such that many of us lay-people can understand?

I'm willing to bet that many reading this thread are far from experts, so the technical lingo that's being exchanged here is probably falling on deaf ears, for we simply don't get it. I know a significant portion of it is going over mine. :)

Is that possible or is it too complex to summarize?

Thanks

DSteck
03-17-11, 07:36 PM
Simply put, the data supplied with the injectors and the fact that they are matched the way that they are allows for them to have precise control at VERY low pulsewidths, and be very predictable. It is rare to find fuel injectors that are huge and still provide predictable operation at low pulse widths.

Think of it like this. A stock injector is a standard pickup truck. Large, redrilled injectors are semi trucks that have crap for turning radius. Injector Dynamics are huge semis with tank treads that can turn on a dime.



I'm still willing to discuss this over the phone with ctsvandme to clear up and confusion. I'd like to know who originally tried to tune the car with the ID1000s, and what problems they ran into. If the problem is that the flow rate exceeds the allowable rate for entering into the IFR table, then the tuner is at fault for not making them work.

Luna.
03-17-11, 07:40 PM
Simply put, the data supplied with the injectors and the fact that they are matched the way that they are allows for them to have precise control at VERY low pulsewidths, and be very predictable. It is rare to find fuel injectors that are huge and still provide predictable operation at low pulse widths.

Think of it like this. A stock injector is a standard pickup truck. Large, redrilled injectors are semi trucks that have crap for turning radius. Injector Dynamics are huge semis with tank treads that can turn on a dime.



Thank you, sir.

Very informative.

Florian
03-18-11, 11:23 AM
This thread is accesable for information, but due to personal attacks, this thread is closed.

F