: Engine Swap Process



Cristofo
03-07-11, 09:06 PM
Hey Guys, Back a few days before christmas, my Deville was diagnosed with a cracked block beneath one of the head bolts that screws into the block. After searching and saving I found an engine with 45K miles on it. Went through Dutchers Inc in NY, they have a great BBB rating. This engine has been inside on the shelf since 2000. I finally received the engine today.

My car: 1990 4.5 Sedan Deville (used engine came from a 90 coupe).

Day 1: Removed water pump and cleaned the backing plate as best I could with a rag and degreaser. Step 2 I will use steel wool to brush it totally clean, before I replace with a new gasket and waterpump.

http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/

Since I have the engine with NO obstructions, I want to replace anything that could give me issues down the road. Any ideas on what to look for?

Thanks,
Chris

the recluse
03-07-11, 09:51 PM
I don't see a distributor in that block, did it come with one? If not, how many miles on yours? When/if you pull it to swap, check the end play in the shaft and the drive gear. Too much end play is not good and bad drive gears can lead to seemingly monster issues later.

Pay close attention to the motor mounts when you swap the engines, the torque on these motors love to beat up the mounts; a full set can run about $250.

When you swap out the power steering pump, remove the supply line and change the rubber O-ring. Once you start wiggling that thing around, they have a tendency to leak 10 fold.

Check your alternator bearings for noise and end-play. Although it's not hard to change it later, it sure does suck after you put the whole thing together and you've got to go back under the hood...

Again, i don't know your mileage, and these things might be mute.

Nice looking engine, though :thumbsup:

cadillac_al
03-08-11, 11:01 AM
Those water pump hoses are hard to get at in the car. I think they may be discontinued anyway. The power steering cooler/hose usually fails. It would be nice to have a new one if they are available. Exhaust manifold gaskets are next to impossible in the car but I don't know if I would take the chance of disturbing them. I would be really pissed if they leaked after I got the motor in though. I guess I would just make sure theree are no broken studs

Cristofo
03-08-11, 06:31 PM
1. The engine didn't come with a distributor along with many other accessorys (alt, p/s pump, a/c compressor or PFI) The engine in the vehicle now has 135,000 miles on the odometer but I have no idea how old the distributor might be. So lets say 135k, should I replace it or use the one I have?

2. Today I removed the spark plugs and they looked fine with no obvious signs of problems. I'll be using new ones anyway (havent decided what kind yet).

3. I also attached a hose to the inlet above the thermostat and flushed a whole bunch of nasty old "crud" through and out the holes of the water pump housing inlets. After that I used steel wool and a wire brush to remove any rust/corrosion and old gasket from the backing plate (see picture)

4. Removed the old O2 sensor.

5. Inspected the engine visually and only noticed one thing I'll need to address. The right (front) valve cover looks slightly crushed at the corner (see picture). On the opposite side (intake side) of where this is crushed, the intake thread that holds the corner valve cover bolt is broken (see picture). This is either from overtightening the bolt or whatever crushed the valve cover probably bumped and broke the piece off the intake.

6. I also noticed that the one intake port hole is dirty (see picture)...can I just use carb cleaner and a rag and clean it out?

7. My next step is to remove the crank pulley (still havent thought of the best way to do this). At the moment though I was able to rotate the engine freely with a wrench. This turned the flywheel fine.

I'm not actually doing the engine swap myself, but I'm prepping the engine myself to save some money and I enjoy doing this, especially since I have no obstructions. Also, my vehicle ran perfect before the coolant leak which turned out to be the cracked block, so the condition of my old parts should be pretty good.

More Pics http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/

the recluse
03-08-11, 07:28 PM
1) The distributors on these cars are finicky at best; one little thing wrong with it and you can chase your tail following gremlins. You can probably use yours if the car was running right in the first place.

2) I would just put AC Delco's back in place as they work good in the engine.

5) The covers on these cars are magnesium which is not prone to bending well. If crushed, replace; especially if you see cracks.

7) Why are you removing the crank pulley? If you're looking for clearance all you really have to do is remove the bolt and the pulley should clear. If you want to remove the crank pulley, get a pulley puller..you can "rent" one from an automotive parts house for nothing....

Cristofo
03-08-11, 07:35 PM
Thanks for the advice!

I'm removing the pulley to install a new timing chain set.

the recluse
03-08-11, 10:44 PM
Just for the sake of asking, why change the timing chain on a motor with only 45k?

Cristofo
03-08-11, 11:01 PM
Fair question. I'm not to familiar with the reliability of the timing setup in these engines so I'm just thinking if it will need to be changed why not do it now. I've seen it recommended when reading about buying a used engine but that's not to say its the right thing to do. my only other concern is so I can check what everything looks like in regards to condition and where the cam and crank lineup. What would you suggest and how long does a timing chain last in this engine? Can a chain and gear slip out of adjustment like a tooth and belt setup?

Also the timing set is about 50 bucks as opposed to a few hundred down the road. I'm a little picky when it comes to my cars and this is the nicest car I've ever owned. I do appreciate the feedback I'm open to as much knowledge as I can get.

Thanks
Chris

drewsdeville
03-09-11, 12:12 AM
The timing chains in these engines are good for the life of the vehicle. Even at 200k, they show minimal slack. The GM units are of great quality. I'd advise AGAINST replacing it, as you never know what you are getting with aftermarket. The GM timing setup is good for 300k, but the aftermarket might only be good for 100k...

I think you should save that $50 for anything else that pops up during this swap.

Concerning a post above, these engines did not come from the factory with exhaust manifold gaskets. The head and thick manifold flange were finished with a flat enough surface that gaskets were not required. Gaskets ARE available from aftermarket manufacturer...don't install any.

Cristofo
03-09-11, 12:55 AM
Great new thank you! Should I leave the timing cover gasket alone and just do the water pump and wp gasket and inlet gasket?

After reading up on everyone's issues on leaking gaskets, I'm gonna make sure everything sets perfectly. Having the room to do so is a major plus.

cadillac_al
03-09-11, 07:11 AM
I agree with Drew on the timing chain. Yours is low miles already and they seem to last for the life of the engine.

Cristofo
03-09-11, 10:38 AM
I'm going to go with your advice and leave the timing chain alone...I will be spending that money on a GM waterpump and carefully installing it as to not have any leaks.

the recluse
03-09-11, 09:02 PM
I agree with Drew on the timing chain. Yours is low miles already and they seem to last for the life of the engine.

x3^^ That's why I asked.

Cristofo
03-09-11, 10:08 PM
I could tell by your question that you were about to tell me that. This is the kind of stuff that I love about forums. It's hands on results from fellow car lovers. You get well rounded answers that have no agenda behind them. I'm fairly new to the forum and I hope eventually I can start helping others. I've been browsing this forum and there is a specific type of poster that discourages people from commenting. I'm sure I don't need to tell you his name. but casper the friendly ghost isn't so friendly.

Cristofo
03-09-11, 10:43 PM
If anyone has a chance to look at the new Photobucket pics i posted I have a question regarding the upper intake port holes.

http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/

As you can see there's either carbon buildup or dirt in the uncapped port hole. Can I just spray that with carb cleaner? And should I avoid spraying directly into the metal tube in the center? There is carbon or dirt build up in there also and I used some q tips soaked in cleaner. I might be handling this with kid gloves when I don't need to.

drewsdeville
03-10-11, 12:26 AM
There is one under each throttle body bore. Those tubes allow the EGR system to function. They should be cleaned out - you can do so with anything that fits in there whether it be a screwdriver, piece of coat hanger, etc. If you are really concerned about getting it all out, remove the EGR valve and clean the passages from both sides with an air compressor and some carb cleaner. That is really not necessary, however.

Cristofo
03-10-11, 09:33 AM
Cool, i'll work on that today along with pulling the Valve Cover that is cracked. I'll keep posting pics if you guys dont mind.

Cristofo
03-10-11, 03:20 PM
I rotated the crankshaft just to get the feel of how the engine is rotating and Im curious...

When you do this, should your crank rotate totally smooth & easy when making one full rotation? I'd say 3/4 of the way its fairly smooth but it gets to a point where it requires more pressure to rotate with the wrench. Once you get past that point its fairly smooth again 3/4 of the way.

My question: Is this normal? There is no oil in the engine so I'm guessing that adds to it. The only other reason I feel this might be normal is due to the way the pistons are moving. If a piston is traveling down and gets to the furthest point there should be additional friction when changing direction or does this sound totally wrong?

Thanks,
Chris

the recluse
03-10-11, 05:15 PM
Yes, it's normal. It's the compression stroke...and it's not because the piston's reaching the bottom, it's because it's reaching the top...with the valves closed.

Cristofo
03-10-11, 06:24 PM
Awesome thanks man!

Ok after day 3, I threw some updated pictures of my progress. http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/

I removed the Valve Covers and the heads look great! No sludge, no visible issues so I'm happy.

I cleaned the water outlet that bolts to the back of the water pump. It took alot of elbow grease to get it completely clean and free of the old gasket. I'm taking every precaution to make sure my cooling system is leak free.

I also cleaned inside the upper intake with carb cleaner and a rag, used compressed canned air to clear out the metal egr tubes. I noticed that the metal center egr tube in the port hole with the deeper inlet was loose. I could turn it in place but i could not pull it out and I didnt try very hard because I didnt think it was a good idea.

I also bought Champion Platinum Plugs today but I'm still not sure if I want to use them. I have great success with NGK plugs but Ive only had them in 2 Acuras so far. Im searching the forum for plug recommendations but there is almost too much info. I may take these back to either get AC Delco Platinum or NGK Platinum G series. Maybe some people have done or heard of this. Does anyone here adjust the install on their plugs so that the open end of the tip is facing directly towards where the injector is located?


Almost there...

the recluse
03-10-11, 09:53 PM
I would put Delco Platinum's in it, I run them in both my Northstar and 4.9 with good results.

As far as running with the plug facing a certain way, well, in this engine it's almost negligible. The combustion chambers are wedge shaped and therefore start flame propagation towards the back of the head anyway. It's an engineering trick to reduce detonation, as these motors have no knock sensors. There are a few times this technique is useful, such as in bathtub designed chambers. Here starting flame propagation towards the valve (up) will help flame spread a little more evenly. I your case, I wouldn't worry too much about it...

The injectors are not located in the cylinder chamber, they are where the intake drops to the intake valve. Otherwise you run the risk of exploding the injector, which, I would imagine, would not be a very pretty sight.

Cristofo
03-10-11, 10:48 PM
Makes sense and I'm gonna exchange these champions for delcos. Thanks!

drewsdeville
03-10-11, 11:20 PM
The injectors are not located in the cylinder chamber, they are where the intake drops to the intake valve.

A direct injection 4.X would be pretty sweet!

Cristofo
03-11-11, 03:37 PM
Today, I went out to buy parts and exchange my plugs. I ended up getting the AC Delco R44TLS6 for 2.29/ea...They aren't the platinum AC Delcos but I'm pretty sure this part number shipped with the engine.

Does anyone know if the Fel-Pro Water Pump and Water Outlet gaskets are ok to use? I saw somewhere on the forum that a cork W/P gasket was the only thing that didnt leak for one users application.

Ghost C
03-11-11, 04:26 PM
Today, I went out to buy parts and exchange my plugs. I ended up getting the AC Delco R44TLS6 for 2.29/ea...They aren't the platinum AC Delcos but I'm pretty sure this part number shipped with the engine.

Does anyone know if the Fel-Pro Water Pump and Water Outlet gaskets are ok to use? I saw somewhere on the forum that a cork W/P gasket was the only thing that didnt leak for one users application.

Be sure not to let the hood fall on you while you try to change the plugs. Seems like common sense, but a guy who nearly drops a car on himself probably needs reminded of things like that. Remembering to breathe?

I'd recommend you have the water pump gaskets done professionally. It's a simple job, but I wouldn't want you getting confused and putting the gasket on the wrong way.

Cristofo
03-11-11, 04:49 PM
Be sure not to let the hood fall on you while you try to change the plugs. Seems like common sense, but a guy who nearly drops a car on himself probably needs reminded of things like that. Remembering to breathe?

I'd recommend you have the water pump gaskets done professionally. It's a simple job, but I wouldn't want you getting confused and putting the gasket on the wrong way.

Wow? Ok now you're just showing how immature you are, but don't worry nothing you say will cause me the slightest discomfort. And do better research if you're going to try to come at me, because you obviously cant read. I honestly feel bad for you and anyone that has to "deal" with you in person I bet you're full of fun...Internet tough guys and know-it-alls are a dime a dozen, so let the MEN talk over here. One day when you're older maybe you'll know how to interact with people.

drewsdeville
03-11-11, 04:49 PM
Today, I went out to buy parts and exchange my plugs. I ended up getting the AC Delco R44TLS6 for 2.29/ea...They aren't the platinum AC Delcos but I'm pretty sure this part number shipped with the engine.

Does anyone know if the Fel-Pro Water Pump and Water Outlet gaskets are ok to use? I saw somewhere on the forum that a cork W/P gasket was the only thing that didnt leak for one users application.

Fel-Pro's work great. As long as the engine is out of the car, it might be a good idea to chase the fine threads in the water inlet as well as the studs on the timing cover with a tap (if you have one available). The bolts that go here seem to cause the most 4.X water pump problems, so they might be worth tending to now while it's easy. Usually, they either are overtorqued and stripped by a naive hand or they corrode, thus failing to hold torque. The 10mm bolts and nuts only get 5 lb-ft, no more.

Ghost C
03-11-11, 04:59 PM
Wow? Ok now you're just showing how immature you are, but don't worry nothing you say will cause me the slightest discomfort. And do better research if you're going to try to come at me, because you obviously cant read. I honestly feel bad for you and anyone that has to "deal" with you in person I bet you're full of fun...Internet tough guys and know-it-alls are a dime a dozen, so let the MEN talk over here. One day when you're older maybe you'll know how to interact with people.

Annoying when someone with nothing to say comes in and starts talking in your thread, isn't it?

Ah well, time to go build a few intakes and work on the prototypes for these swaybar lock collars. I know that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I figured I'd thump my chest a little while I'm here. You work on your car because you can't afford to pay someone, people pay me to make parts for their cars. See how that works?

Don't forget to breathe.

Cristofo
03-11-11, 05:05 PM
Ok cool, I did read up on the FSM torque ratings being high for the smaller nuts and bolts. I think most of the water pump issues are due to the tight work space when the engine is in the car.

Cristofo
03-11-11, 05:07 PM
Annoying when someone with nothing to say comes in and starts talking in your thread, isn't it?

Ah well, time to go build a few intakes and work on the prototypes for these swaybar lock collars. I know that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I figured I'd thump my chest a little while I'm here. You work on your car because you can't afford to pay someone, people pay me to make parts for their cars. See how that works?

Don't forget to breathe.

I work on my car because I love to do it...You have no idea what you're talking about. I could care less what you do or dont do, youre just bitter because I tried to help you realize something you obviously cant.

Cristofo
03-11-11, 05:30 PM
Ghost C,

Feel free to continue to reply and I will always just calmly reply back. I don't mind if you post in here I don't discriminate. We drive and own our cars for different reasons and I'm fine with that. Even though you're a genius at everything else, your people skills need work.

Cristofo
03-12-11, 05:19 PM
I finally bought a Haynes manual and they dont mention the number of O2 sensors. I see the threads on both manifolds, but is there also one downstream?

After much research, I'm getting conflicting answers. Alot of people say there is only 1 sensor but why would the manifolds have the exact same threaded holes for o2 sensors if the one was left unused. I dont have access to my car, only the engine Im replacing it with or i'd look under my hood.

Cristofo
03-16-11, 01:51 PM
Engine arrived at the shop today so I'll take some pictures once i get her back...Hopefully I'll know how to use a camera being as how inept i am... :)

Sevillian273
03-21-11, 10:21 PM
Dont forget to take the lense cap off! :D

If both manifolds have o2 sensor bungs, then it probably came from a Seville or Eldorado. Or possibly a later model Deville. I think they switched from a single O2 to duals in the devilles sometime after 1990. There will be none downstream from the engine. If the original car had just one, then you must retain the original manifolds since your car's PCM will only be able to accommodate input from a single sensor.



You work on your car because you can't afford to pay someone, people pay me to make parts for their cars. See how that works?



http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/68/csb1.jpg

ehall
03-22-11, 12:04 AM
You can buy a threaded plug for the O2 bung.. or just find a short bolt

Cristofo
03-22-11, 09:51 AM
i looked up the VIN on the engine and its telling me it came from a 90 Coupe Deville...I'm going back to the shop today so i want to double check this. I would imagine the o2 sensor goes to the rear manifold right? I'll probably ask my mechnic to block up the other bung instead of swapping the manifolds.

Sevillian273
03-22-11, 12:30 PM
How many o2 sensors does the original car have? If only one, then like you said, you can use just one manifold and plug the other. The only downside to this is that the computer will take readings from that one bank and apply the same actions to the other bank. The effects will likely be negligible. The dual o2 setup can fine-tune the fueling for both banks independently.

One issue that comes to mind is the A.I.R. system. It uses the O2 sensor in the front manifold to self-test so you may get a e049. The EGR system also uses the o2's for self testing but I dont recall if it uses just one or both....

I suppose after all is said and done, you could swap the o2 from one side to the other if codes pop up....

Woah woah, wait a damn minute!! Lol - Now that I think about it, the o2 bungs should be in the downpipes just after the manifolds. That bung you are looking at in the manifold itself is probably just the A.I.R. discharge port. This is where fresh air is intrduced into the exhaust stream from the smog pump. Engines made after 1990 did not have this.

drewsdeville
03-22-11, 01:11 PM
I believe that the '90-'93 Deville had it's single 02 sensor in the rear manifold, yes the manifold itself, not the y-pipe. The threads in the front manifold are probably for the AIR tube, like mentioned by Sevillian.

Cristofo
03-22-11, 01:13 PM
How many o2 sensors does the original car have? If only one, then like you said, you can use just one manifold and plug the other. The only downside to this is that the computer will take readings from that one bank and apply the same actions to the other bank. The effects will likely be negligible. The dual o2 setup can fine-tune the fueling for both banks independently.

One issue that comes to mind is the A.I.R. system. It uses the O2 sensor in the front manifold to self-test so you may get a e049. The EGR system also uses the o2's for self testing but I dont recall if it uses just one or both....

I suppose after all is said and done, you could swap the o2 from one side to the other if codes pop up....

Woah woah, wait a damn minute!! Lol - Now that I think about it, the o2 bungs should be in the downpipes just after the manifolds. That bung you are looking at in the manifold itself is probably just the A.I.R. discharge port. This is where fresh air is intrduced into the exhaust stream from the smog pump. Engines made after 1990 did not have this.


Hey youre exactly right...I stopped at the shop today and we verified that my OE engine has only 1 and the other hole is for the smog pump hose. I was able to return 1 O2 sensor...I bought a A/T filter kit and Max Life Dexron 2 fluid instead.

Cristofo
03-22-11, 01:24 PM
UPDATE*

My mechanic decided he wanted to pull the engine through the top, so he removed everything in the way. This included hood, fans, all accessories, TB, hoses, etc...His reasoning was that he wanted to leave the transmission in the car and thought it would be easier this way. I'm not going to argue, because he's a great mechanic. All he needs to do now is unbolt the transmission and the engine can come out. I'm probably a good 2 days away from it being finished! I'm so anxious!

You should have seen the EGR tubes in the port holes of my OE engine...they were totally blocked up and when you looked into the port holes it was totally black and disgusting. I'm sure once I get the new engine in, it will run like a dream.

Sevillian273
03-22-11, 01:40 PM
They still make Dexron 2 ?!

Cristofo
03-22-11, 01:56 PM
They still make Dexron 2 ?!

Well no, but the Dex/Merc fluid is safe and compatible for Dex 2, 3, etc..

According to my manual a fluid and filter change requires 13 pints of fluid. It should take 6.5 qts if my calculations are correct?

Sevillian273
03-22-11, 02:02 PM
Sounds about right. I think I bought 7 singles when I did mine.

cadillac_al
03-23-11, 08:11 AM
Dex VI is better and not that much more money.

Cristofo
03-23-11, 01:59 PM
I can still return it since he hasnt gotten to the filter change yet. Im trying to do all the necessary changes now and start fresh. I really like Valvoline and Maxlife products, but Im not sure they had a Dex VI Max Life product. I will check though. If they dont, I did see Catrol Dex VI.

Cristofo
03-24-11, 10:28 PM
As of tonight he has the new engine in and needs to finish connecting everything. I'm hoping I get her back tomorrow...

drewsdeville
03-25-11, 12:50 AM
Where are the pictures?

Cristofo
03-25-11, 01:59 PM
Here are just some random pics ive taken through the process.

http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/

And here are 2 pictures before the engine went.

73849
73850

I'll be sure to post all my total disassembly process pics when I get the old engine back to my dads warehouse. I plan on disassembling the whole old engine.

Cristofo
03-29-11, 01:13 PM
Just got a call that he got my car running said it sounded pretty good but had a miss...He started to tap on the injectors and it started to run better with no miss. He's going to swap out the injectors and rail from my old engine to the new used engine.

Hopefully this corrects the issue and I can be driving me car in not time...

Sevillian273
03-29-11, 08:08 PM
Tell him to keep all the working injectors from both engines. You may need one or two in the future. They are known for shorting out and are quite expensive new.

Cristofo
03-30-11, 12:34 PM
Good thinking! I'm keeping everything so I have a "parts" set. My original engine ran perfect except for the crack that was leaking out coolant, so most if not all parts should be good.

Cristofo
03-31-11, 05:47 PM
So finally got her back, this can complete this thread. Starting new one... ;)

Sevillian273
03-31-11, 06:01 PM
A new thread? Uh-oh, that's not a good sign! :ill:

Cristofo
04-01-11, 09:21 AM
A new thread? Uh-oh, that's not a good sign! :ill:

Ha, should I not?

Sevillian273
04-01-11, 09:47 AM
I thought that means it didnt go well!

Cristofo
04-01-11, 03:35 PM
I thought that means it didnt go well!

So far so good :)

Cristofo
04-01-11, 11:05 PM
wow i cant believe the luck i have...driving home from my niece's birthday party and I hear a metal tapping sound. This is after I had zero problems, the car was running good. I pull the car over and look under the hood....the tapping was coming from the pulley area so I shined my flashlight down and noticed the water pump pulley had a very slight wobble (F*$K!). I got in my car to get it somewhere safe when the charge light pops on followed by the hi coolant temp light, so I shut the car off immediately. Pop the hood again...Belt's broke, water pump pulley has 1 bolt left and almost hanging off. Got it towed.

Only thing I can think is that the water pump seized and broke the belt. Are brand new pumps likely to fail after 50miles of use? WTF! I used the coolant supplement (bars powder) and bought Prestone and new hoses. Could the engine have loosened sludge that I couldnt flush with the hose (I flushed this thing plenty of times until the water came out clear everytime). I trust this mechanic he does good work, so did he do something? All I know is I'm not touching the car until I can get him on the phone and since I only have his work number, I will most likely not get him until Monday.

This sucks, and it sucks bad.

drewsdeville
04-01-11, 11:23 PM
Sounds like your mechanic forgot to torque down the pulley bolts. If the shaft/pump are still intact, but the pulley and it's bolts are loose, that's the only explaination.

ehall
04-02-11, 12:03 AM
The water pump design is horrible, I went through 4 in 3 years

quins90lac
04-02-11, 04:16 AM
Yeah the mechanic forgot to tork down the water pump pulley bolts. had it happen to me once before it sucks.Replace the bolts and check for leaks and replace the belt. might not be a bad idea to replace the thermostat with a fail safe model. And hey be thankful that the water pump design isint like Mazda nothing like haveing to remove 3 pieces of plastic just to get to it then trying to get to some small bolts that you cant even see.

Cristofo
04-02-11, 03:43 PM
You're right the pulley bolts weren't torqued correctly so I had to replace the pulley. That was very hard to get today but a little parts place was able to get it. Used medium thread locker and buttoned everything up now it runs even better and the rough idle was cut in half.

Thank god that wasn't anything major. Thanks for your guys help!

Cristofo
04-04-11, 10:06 AM
I guess it never ends...Today service engine soon light came on...I ran the codes and got E31 and E49. I know the one is for MAP sensor...I'm sure these codes are related.

ehall
04-04-11, 12:21 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/21558-obd-i-codes-4-x-engines.html

E31 - Shorted MAP Sensor Signal
E49 - A.I.R. Control Problem

I would test the wires for those per whatever instructions are in the FSM. Might have a pinched wire bundle or a loose connection somewhere.

Cristofo
04-04-11, 12:43 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/21558-obd-i-codes-4-x-engines.html

E31 - Shorted MAP Sensor Signal
E49 - A.I.R. Control Problem

I would test the wires for those per whatever instructions are in the FSM. Might have a pinched wire bundle or a loose connection somewhere.

I cleared the codes and drove for a little so no new codes yet...I'm not getting good mpgs around town(around 10)...highway seems fine(20 to 28). My mechanic mentioned that he thought my cat might be bad...I'm sure these are related. I'm gonna check all connections...is the air system the diverter valve on the passenger side rear on top of the engine?

Here are some pictures I took after checking for vaccum leaks. I noticed that the sensor attached the back bottom of the map sensor bracket has 2 nipples on it and I only see 1 vaccum hose connected. See photo #5.

http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i444/cristofo/Vaccum%20Leak/

I also sprayed some throttle body cleaner around where the base of the air cleaner meets the PFI and the liquid gets sucked into the bottom of the air cleaner and RPM changes.

ehall
04-04-11, 02:03 PM
is the air system the diverter valve on the passenger side rear on top of the engine?
On my 4.1 there is a tangle of 1" hoses on the top rear passenger area, and the diverter valve is somewhere in there. The FSM describes test procedures that are useful for learning about it.


Here are some pictures I took after checking for vaccum leaks. I noticed that the sensor attached the back bottom of the map sensor bracket has 2 nipples on it and I only see 1 vaccum hose connected. See photo #5.

Hard to tell from that angle but that looks like the EGR solenoid blow-off port. When the EGR is turned off the system has to relieve the vacuum in order for the diaphragm to relax, so the solenoid has an exhaust port.


I also sprayed some throttle body cleaner around where the base of the air cleaner meets the PFI and the liquid gets sucked into the bottom of the air cleaner and RPM changes.

That doesn't sound right

Cristofo
04-04-11, 03:25 PM
I'm going to either try to buy an intake gasket or make one and see if that stops the leak at the base of the intake.

UPDATE: I removed the air cleaner assembly again and carefully looked how it was seating on the PFI unit and the way the thermostat clamp was positioned it wasnt allowing the air cleaner to sit flush. I moved the clamp out of the way and re-tightened. It started much quicker and sounded better at idle. Next test is to drive it.

quins90lac
04-04-11, 03:55 PM
if you had a big enough o ring it would work.

Cristofo
04-04-11, 04:07 PM
by the way you guys have been awesome! Thanks!

Cristofo
04-05-11, 02:56 PM
I ran the on board tests and want to post my results. I dont have a FSM so I understand these kinds of questions get redundant, but I appreciate any help.

I did the test twice, 1 time engine off, 1 time engine running. The numbers in () are with engine on.

P01 - 3.7 (.5)
P02 - 101 (46)
P03 - 101 (101)
P04 - 101 (98)
P05 - 82 (90)
P06 - 0 (18-19) fluctuating
P07 - .0 (13.3)
P08 - 0 (58-63) fluctuating
P09 - 0 (0)
P12 - .0 (5.3-5.5) fluctuating
P14 - .07 (.54-.63) fluctuating
P16 - 0 (8-13) fluctuating
P18 - 128 (130)
P20 - 128 (115)
P21 - 22 (22)
P22 - 00 (00)
P23 - 10 (10)
P24 - 40 (42)
P25 -360 (360)

Im sure these numbers could tell me alot if I knew what they are and what they should be...No FSM = Not much help...

ehall
04-05-11, 03:35 PM
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/__?_from=R40&_trksid=p3841.m39.l1313&_nkw=1990+deville+service+manual&_sacat=

Cristofo
04-05-11, 04:11 PM
Thanks, these are alot cheaper than the ones I saw for $105

drewsdeville
04-05-11, 05:17 PM
I ran the on board tests and want to post my results. I dont have a FSM so I understand these kinds of questions get redundant, but I appreciate any help.

I did the test twice, 1 time engine off, 1 time engine running. The numbers in () are with engine on.

P01 - 3.7 (.5) - TPS position
P02 - 101 (46)
P03 - 101 (101)
P04 - 101 (98)
P05 - 82 (90)
P06 - 0 (18-19) fluctuating
P07 - .0 (13.3) - Battery volts
P08 - 0 (58-63) fluctuating - Engine RPM
P09 - 0 (0) - Speed
P12 - .0 (5.3-5.5) fluctuating - Injector pulse length
P14 - .07 (.54-.63) fluctuating - O2 sensor voltage
P16 - 0 (8-13) fluctuating - O2 sensor cross counts
P18 - 128 (130)
P20 - 128 (115)
P21 - 22 (22)
P22 - 00 (00)
P23 - 10 (10)
P24 - 40 (42)
P25 -360 (360)

Im sure these numbers could tell me alot if I knew what they are and what they should be...No FSM = Not much help...

I added to the ones that I know. Not sure about the rest. P02-P06 are all various sensor readings like the MAP, coolant temp, air temp, etc. I'm not sure which is which, however.

Cristofo
04-05-11, 08:09 PM
I added to the ones that I know. Not sure about the rest. P02-P06 are all various sensor readings like the MAP, coolant temp, air temp, etc. I'm not sure which is which, however.

Thanks Drew...I won't get my fsm for about a week I got one for less than 25 shipped. I actually ran them again with slightly different results. I just want to get rid of this rough idle. My Mpgs are way down.

Cristofo
04-05-11, 09:17 PM
Man! Everyday its something new...my heat has been working fine but tonight when i tried to use it, it was blowing out cool. It was fine earlier today. Seems like this heart transplant is not taking very well. So frustrated.

Cristofo
04-06-11, 03:14 PM
Man! Everyday its something new...my heat has been working fine but tonight when i tried to use it, it was blowing out cool. It was fine earlier today. Seems like this heart transplant is not taking very well. So frustrated.

Update: I burped the system and finally got the heat back. I also replaced the Spark Plug wires and before driving it, idle sounds alot better. I hope this puts an end to my rough idle.