: Cadillac Compact Car - What Are Your Thoughts?



Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 01:37 PM
Ya know... I'm worried about gas prices.. I get this feeling we're going to be seeing rising prices for awhile - and a possibility that they may get REALLY high and stay there. Especially as the rest of the world stops using the dollar and a standard...

So.. There are some pretty good alternatives out there.. The new Hyundai Accent gets a combined 50 miles per gallon (amazing - it's not even a hybrid). The new Elantra gets 40. We all know about the Prius, Volt and Leaf or whatever..

Lexus has the CT 200h that gets over 40 miles per gallon - and that looks to be a pretty luxurious little car (soft surfaces, nice leather, nice instrumentation, etcetera).

What's there for us Cadillac owners? What if you're worried enough about gas prices (amongst everything else) that your next car is going to be a compact or subcompact? And what if you don't want to stop driving a Cadillac? Cadillac has distinct styling that you can't get anywhere else.. Inside and out..

I don't "like" the thoughts of a compact Cadillac - but I think it may be necessary.. Hell, if the sh*t does hit the fan and gas costs $6.00 per gallon or worse - I'd rather have a small Cadillac than a Prius - or even a Volt.

Any thoughts?

Jesda
03-03-11, 02:08 PM
Seems like the Buick Verano is the perfect offering for that kind of car. Cushy luxury for miserly types.

S70RMP
03-03-11, 02:24 PM
The should re-look at the BLS again !

hueterm
03-03-11, 03:03 PM
Isn't that what the ATS is for?

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 03:08 PM
The 3-Series is heavy for a fairly small car.. If the ATS is anything like it, it's not going to get the kind of gas mileage a proper compact or subcompact can get.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 03:14 PM
Lexus isn't selling any CTs, despite fuel prices. However, in order to cement this segment and get it out of the way, the Evoq concept (I believe that's it) needs to be brought to fruition so that Cadillac has a version of the Volt. Because of the complete failure that was the Cimarron, a straight up Cadillac Cruze is just never going to fly again, despite the niceness of the Verano. They honestly WOULD be better off using the BLS because at least it's based on something not perceived as an entry level college car elsewhere within GM.

orconn
03-03-11, 03:15 PM
Even an entry level Cadillac should have a level of feel and apointments taht sets it apart from the competition. Another parts bin disaster like the Cimarron, or even the Catera, would be a disaster for Cadillac. As in the case of the Catera, even a decent car that is perceived to be a "fake" Cadillac but a decent Pontiac would be detrimental to Cadillac's reclaiming "luxurt car" status!

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 03:30 PM
I don't believe the CT 200h is available yet...

I think the Buick Verano could be a good compact Cadillac with the right interior and exterior styling. As times get tougher here in America, people will disagree with a small Cadillac less and less. Right now, not so much...

hueterm
03-03-11, 03:36 PM
Lexus isn't selling any CTs, despite fuel prices. However, in order to cement this segment and get it out of the way, the Evoq concept (I believe that's it) needs to be brought to fruition so that Cadillac has a version of the Volt. Because of the complete failure that was the Cimarron, a straight up Cadillac Cruze is just never going to fly again, despite the niceness of the Verano. They honestly WOULD be better off using the BLS because at least it's based on something not perceived as an entry level college car elsewhere within GM.

Besides the STS and CTS, they're nothing but better rebadges anyway... SRX, Lade, and DTS are all blatant rebadges, albeit of higher priced models...

A decked ?TS that was Verano based, that was say $5K more than a decked Verano would probably sell, if it had the top engine, and unique enough styling...IF gas got bad enough...

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 07:59 PM
Besides the STS and CTS, they're nothing but better rebadges anyway... SRX, Lade, and DTS are all blatant rebadges, albeit of higher priced models...

A decked ?TS that was Verano based, that was say $5K more than a decked Verano would probably sell, if it had the top engine, and unique enough styling...IF gas got bad enough...

The rebadging itself isn't what I was referring to, but the fact that the Cimarron was universally panned by not only everyone in the automotive media, but recently by GM executives themselves (Bob) as a mistake that should never be repeated, and one to learn from. Creating ANOTHER Cadillac copy from the lineage that is essentially the replacement of the replacement of the Cavalier would be fairly rapidly ripped by the automotive media. Yes, I know the Cruze is a fine car and world's better than the Cavalier, but it would be risky to re-use the car that occupies that position within Chevrolet again, as the basis for another Cadillac. Getting away from references to "Cimarron II" would be damn near impossible.

Also, the car I was thinking of at Lexus is the HS-250h Sal (the Prius copy). The two worst selling vehicles right now are the long in the tooth GS, and the HS. My complete lack of knowledge of all the identification numbers and concept names for cars in this market goes to show how little I care about the damn things.

hueterm
03-03-11, 08:02 PM
The Cimarron was also a steaming load of crap. If these new cars aren't, a lot of that stigma will go away. And as hypnotized as all these lemmings are w/everything green...it'll probably be a huge hit...

ThumperPup
03-03-11, 08:05 PM
I don;t know but when gas get sthat hi im leaving ohio for sure every winter and going somewhere that i can ride a dirt bike or a moped or somehtig that gets better MPG

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 08:09 PM
The Cimarron was also a steaming load of crap. If these new cars aren't, a lot of that stigma will go away. And as hypnotized as all these lemmings are w/everything green...it'll probably be a huge hit...

That's why I think it would be easier to just sneak the platform in under the Converj concept (thanks billc83). Kill two birds with one stone... Gives Cadillac its proper treehugger cred, and allows them to have that smaller car without it having to be a DIRECT copy of the Cruze, but rather just a loose implementation of the Cruze's platform (which underpins the Volt which the Converj is in turn based on).

hueterm
03-03-11, 08:10 PM
I'm fine w/that...

billc83
03-03-11, 08:21 PM
A smaller Cadillac would be competing directly with the 3-Series. Basing it on the Cruze/Volt platform wouldn't be kosher.

The Converj was really a nice looking car, and had similar dimensions to the 3-Series BMW. They should just take the body, plot it on top of a RWD chassis, and instant 3-Series competitor. Imagine this sexy beast, but RWD and with no green pretentions:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/images/Cadillac/Cadillac-Converj-14.jpg

If Cadillac wanted to go smaller, they can build that micro-machine with the Lambo doors. Make that FWD - it'll compete against the sales dud 1-Series where FWD/RWD wouldn't be as much of an issue. Imagine this but stretched a bit to make it a four seater:

http://autoweek.com/galleryimage/CW/20101116/LOSANGELES/111609995/PH/1/9/caddy3.jpg&maxw=750

And you're quite welcome, Playdrv4me.

Ranger
03-03-11, 09:56 PM
Good Lord that is ugly!

Compact Cadillac is blasphemy. It brings back memories of Cimarron and Catera. We all know what happened there. I don't think a (Lord forgive me) compact Cadillac will sell.

cadillac kevin
03-03-11, 10:12 PM
both those cars make me want to puke. the cadillac smart car is just wrong- in so many ways I cant begin to explain (well I could, but the post would be a page long)
as for the one thats cobalt sized, it would be ok, but it needs to be at least 2 feet longer, more low slung, rwd, have a rock solid 6 cylinder (4's in a caddy would make me puke) and have an actual trunk. hell, might as well scrap that one and start from scratch.

Aron9000
03-03-11, 11:06 PM
Cadillac does not need a compact car IMO. Throw a diesel in the ATS and let it get 35-40mpg. BMW sells a smaller displacement 3 series diesel in Europe that gets 40mpg+, the one they sell in the US market is the larger displacement performance diesel and only gets 30-35mpg.

People associate Cadillac as a larger car, a car of substance and presence. Slapping the badge on any FWD econocar, no matter how nice, is a slap in the face to the heritage of the brand.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 11:20 PM
Cadillac does not need a compact car IMO. Throw a diesel in the ATS and let it get 35-40mpg. BMW sells a smaller displacement 3 series diesel in Europe that gets 40mpg+, the one they sell in the US market is the larger displacement performance diesel and only gets 30-35mpg.

People associate Cadillac as a larger car, a car of substance and presence. Slapping the badge on any FWD econocar, no matter how nice, is a slap in the face to the heritage of the brand.

This echoes my thoughts precisely, and the diesel thing ain't a bad idea. In fact, it's not out of the question for GM to just get the same motor from BMW, or any other potential Euro partner.

Destroyer
03-03-11, 11:26 PM
Ya know... I'm worried about gas prices.. I get this feeling we're going to be seeing rising prices for awhile - and a possibility that they may get REALLY high and stay there. Especially as the rest of the world stops using the dollar and a standard...

So.. There are some pretty good alternatives out there.. The new Hyundai Accent gets a combined 50 miles per gallon (amazing - it's not even a hybrid). The new Elantra gets 40. We all know about the Prius, Volt and Leaf or whatever..

Lexus has the CT 200h that gets over 40 miles per gallon - and that looks to be a pretty luxurious little car (soft surfaces, nice leather, nice instrumentation, etcetera).

What's there for us Cadillac owners? What if you're worried enough about gas prices (amongst everything else) that your next car is going to be a compact or subcompact? And what if you don't want to stop driving a Cadillac? Cadillac has distinct styling that you can't get anywhere else.. Inside and out..

I don't "like" the thoughts of a compact Cadillac - but I think it may be necessary.. Hell, if the sh*t does hit the fan and gas costs $6.00 per gallon or worse - I'd rather have a small Cadillac than a Prius - or even a Volt.

Any thoughts?
Get a used Cimarron. :cool2::duck:

billc83
03-03-11, 11:42 PM
As Bob Dylan said, "The times, they are a changing."

Fact is, Cadillac was associated with large land yachts decades ago. They've been trying to change that image for years. The American automotive dichotomy is moving towards smaller cars with higher gas prices attacking one flank and CAFE attacking the other. It's an inevitability. It doesn't mean that bigger cars will go away.

Telling someone you drive a compact car used to mean you were in a Pacer, Gremlin, Vega, or other P.O.S. No one will look down on someone for driving a Fit (an Aveo, on the other hand...).


People associate Cadillac as a larger car, a car of substance and presence. Slapping the badge on any FWD econocar, no matter how nice, is a slap in the face to the heritage of the brand.

Substance and presence is not mutually exclusive with large and RWD (though it helps), and Cadillac doesn't have BMW's RWD-only heritage. That can be seen as a good thing. I'd guess a majority of consumers could care less which wheels do the work, and the only reason I brought up the Cadismart concept was if Cadillac really felt the need to go after the 1-Series (with the ATS aiming at the 3-Series and CTS at the 5-Series). Yes, the Cadismart is probably smaller (I didn't actually look up any specs) but that's why I said lengthen it a bit.

Slapping a badge on a Cavalier and adding leather seats is a slap in the face. Putting some effort into a car to make it distinctive even though it may share the same platform is not. It's a tough line to walk, but it could be pulled off.

Then you'd have to make sure it's not stepping on Buick's toes, but that's a whole other problem GM's paying marketing people to think of while I play armchair-CEO.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 11:44 PM
Ironically enough, even RWD titan BMW is about to be saddled with that Mini based FWD abomination. Nothing is sacred anymore.

Aron9000
03-04-11, 12:01 AM
Ironically enough, even RWD titan BMW is about to be saddled with that Mini based FWD abomination. Nothing is sacred anymore.

Eh, BMW has been in the shitter since 2002 IMO. The ONLY reason I still like this company is that they haven't pissed in the Cheerios of the 3 series owners with weird styling or limp handling. In fact they've made the 3 series better than ever with the new turbo inline six motors. The M models have been pretty sweet over the past 10 years as well, even if the previous gen M5 and M6 are still a bit strange looking.

As for their new FWD entry level, I see this being a flop like the Audi A3, BMW E36 318ti, Benz W203 c230 hatchback thingy.

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 12:08 AM
Eh, BMW has been in the shitter since 2002 IMO. The ONLY reason I still like this company is that they haven't pissed in the Cheerios of the 3 series owners with weird styling or limp handling. In fact they've made the 3 series better than ever with the new turbo inline six motors. The M models have been pretty sweet over the past 10 years as well, even if the previous gen M5 and M6 are still a bit strange looking.

As for their new FWD entry level, I see this being a flop like the Audi A3, BMW E36 318ti, Benz W203 c230 hatchback thingy.

I am a BMW fanatic (though not a fanboi and there IS a difference) but even I would agree that the E9x 3 Series is about all they've got left worth a damn. For SUV lovers like me, the new X3, X5 and the associated M Sport version are also nice, but that's it.

Aron9000
03-04-11, 12:19 AM
I am a BMW fanatic (though not a fanboi and there IS a difference) but even I would agree that the E9x 3 Series is about all they've got left worth a damn. For SUV lovers like me, the new X3, X5 and the associated M Sport version are also nice, but that's it.

Eh, I hate SUV's anyways unless its something like a straight axle 4-Runner, Jeep Wrangler, K-5 Blazer, Rover Defender 90, Benz Galdenwagon, H1 Hummer or some other such beasty truck. As such I hate on road SUV's like the X5, although the sheer sillyness of something being stupid fast like an M-X5 or an SRT-8 Jeep is kind of fun. Of course anything with a 400+hp v8 is going to be silly fun though.

EDIT: Sorry for dragging the thread so far off course. Had to talk about something more interesting and less blasphemous than a compact Cadillac.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-04-11, 12:30 AM
Nope.

Why water down the fine name of Cadillac with small vehicles built for a trend and a current need that will diminish as time passes. Cadillac tried this in '82 with the Cimarron and it failed and only added to Cadillacs' troubles in the mid '80s. They've been out of production since 1988 and we're still making jokes about them!

Cadillac is about making big luxury cars, sporty luxury cars. Cars that are fun to drive, fun to own and fun to dream about owning. Nobody dreams about owning an econocar. Leave that stuff to the other brands. Besides, it seems as though most people that are able to afford a new Cadillac are well financed and would have the money for a few different cars, meaning they'd still have their Cadillac, but would able to afford a little puddle jumper to save gas.

drewsdeville
03-04-11, 12:33 AM
It's a common mistake to automatically categorize a compact car as an "econocar". Those aren't necessarily synonymous.

Just like everyone else, Cadillac will need to prepare for the future, whatever that may be. Just because Cadillac was known for big luxury cars in the past doesn't mean it is guaranteed to succeed in continuing that tradition in the future. It's always about keeping up with the times. Living in the past for traditions sake or because "it's what they are about" is downright silly.

Advancement and progress: they are good things. As a business in need of profit, it's important to remain competitive, not traditional.

The DTS was very traditional for Cadillac, it's exactly "what they are about", look how well that did.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-04-11, 12:38 AM
Yeah, I guess there's always the Audi A3, but that's only sold as a hatchback, and it doesn't sell well..

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 01:02 AM
It's a common mistake to automatically categorize a compact car as an "econocar". Those aren't necessarily synonymous.


If it's a common mistake, then it's an even more common perception, and that's a problem for a luxury brand.

drewsdeville
03-04-11, 01:14 AM
Using Sal's example which drives his question, Lexus is a popular luxury brand who's image is anything but tainted by it's compact luxury offerings.

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 01:53 AM
Using Sal's example which drives his question, Lexus is a popular luxury brand who's image is anything but tainted by it's compact luxury offerings.

Lexus has very little history to draw on. As a result they have a unique advantage of being able to throw pretty much anything at the wall to see what sticks without offending any particular group of owners, and without putting off POTENTIAL buyers. As I mentioned before, the HS-250h has NOT been a good seller for Lexus, despite the assumption of most that an upscale Prius was sure to be a smash-hit for the brand. Even Lexus drivers have their limits, it would seem.

I don't think FWD would hurt anything, and I think that a car like the new Regal would have made an excellent Cadillac with a few tweaks. But to think that you can just re-skin a Cruze and have them fly off the lot is another thing entirely.

77CDV
03-04-11, 02:02 AM
Ya know... I'm worried about gas prices.. I get this feeling we're going to be seeing rising prices for awhile - and a possibility that they may get REALLY high and stay there. Especially as the rest of the world stops using the dollar and a standard...

So.. There are some pretty good alternatives out there.. The new Hyundai Accent gets a combined 50 miles per gallon (amazing - it's not even a hybrid). The new Elantra gets 40. We all know about the Prius, Volt and Leaf or whatever..

Lexus has the CT 200h that gets over 40 miles per gallon - and that looks to be a pretty luxurious little car (soft surfaces, nice leather, nice instrumentation, etcetera).

What's there for us Cadillac owners? What if you're worried enough about gas prices (amongst everything else) that your next car is going to be a compact or subcompact? And what if you don't want to stop driving a Cadillac? Cadillac has distinct styling that you can't get anywhere else.. Inside and out..

I don't "like" the thoughts of a compact Cadillac - but I think it may be necessary.. Hell, if the sh*t does hit the fan and gas costs $6.00 per gallon or worse - I'd rather have a small Cadillac than a Prius - or even a Volt.

Any thoughts?

Cimarron. Catera. We've been here before, and it has yet to end well. Why? Because GM's bean counters will insist that the car be based off an existing compact platform and won't allocate the resources necessary to make the car unique enough or high-quality enough to be worth the price differential a Cadillac should command.

Compacts are not Cadillac's market. There's absolutely no reason to allocate resources in that direction. Not while the company is literally dying for want of a proper flagship.

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 02:07 AM
Cimarron. Catera. We've been here before, and it has yet to end well. Why? Because GM's bean counters will insist that the car be based off an existing compact platform and won't allocate the resources necessary to make the car unique enough or high-quality enough to be worth the price differential a Cadillac should command.

Compacts are not Cadillac's market. There's absolutely no reason to allocate resources in that direction. Not while the company is literally dying for want of a proper flagship.

Which brings up another key point... Start introducing SMALLER cars when you haven't yet even BEGUN to work on the vehicles that belong at the top of your model range, and you instantly come across as having lost your direction.

Infiniti seems to be the closest to Cadillac right now in terms of model mix, and they're actually doing quite well withOUT anything smaller than the G37. I'm sure they're considering it now, but they certainly don't need it.

Aside from a cheaper cost of entry, I really don't even see a point to a smaller car anyway. There's technology out there (mild hybrid, full hybrid, electric, diesel) to squeeze impressive levels of fuel economy out of the car platforms they've already got coming. Throwing some 4 cylinder rebadge out there just comes across as an easy cop-out.

Aron9000
03-04-11, 02:42 AM
If it's a common mistake, then it's an even more common perception, and that's a problem for a luxury brand.

This right here ends the thread and is why Cadillac should never offer another compact car.

That is unless they want to remake the 2 seat XLR with the same LS series based powertrain as a Corvette, I would be all about that "compact" Cadillac. Really a 2 seat luxury roaster should be the only small car segment Cadillac should chase.

drewsdeville
03-04-11, 05:13 AM
Lexus has very little history to draw on. As a result they have a unique advantage of being able to throw pretty much anything at the wall to see what sticks without offending any particular group of owners, and without putting off POTENTIAL buyers. As I mentioned before, the HS-250h has NOT been a good seller for Lexus, despite the assumption of most that an upscale Prius was sure to be a smash-hit for the brand. Even Lexus drivers have their limits, it would seem.


Hmm...I missed the part where a reskinned Cruze was the suggested answer :/ .

Jesda
03-04-11, 06:31 AM
Hmm...I missed the part where a reskinned Cruze was the suggested answer :/ .

The Lexus HS hybrids are heavily dressed up Corollas. That's where the Cruze comparison comes in.

Lord Cadillac
03-04-11, 11:59 AM
Compact Cadillac is blasphemy. It brings back memories of Cimarron and Catera. We all know what happened there. I don't think a (Lord forgive me) compact Cadillac will sell.

Consider the fact that Cadillac NEEDS to compete in the world market. This is the future. Since Cadillac is going to need to build these cars anyway (otherwise, they're just giving up on sales outside the United States - which is brand suicide), why not make them available here as well?


Cadillac does not need a compact car IMO. Throw a diesel in the ATS and let it get 35-40mpg.

That's not a bad idea.. But as gas prices get higher and higher - which they will - quite possibly never to return to what we consider normal - 35mpg is not going to cut it. 40? Not too bad..

In regards to the Lexus HS - it's no wonder if failed as a luxury Prius. The Prius gets 51/48, the HS gets 35/34.. What's the sense? The CT gets 43/40, looks much better inside and out and it supposed to be fun to drive. It's NOT going to be a failure...

Who'd pay the extra money for the Lexus "Prius"? It's just not worth it...

Jesda
03-04-11, 12:34 PM
Consider the fact that Cadillac NEEDS to compete in the world market. This is the future. Since Cadillac is going to need to build these cars anyway (otherwise, they're just giving up on sales outside the United States - which is brand suicide), why not make them available here as well?

The same reason its dumb to sell the Escalade in Denmark. They might sell a dozen a year at the expense of their image. They're seen as fuel-thirsty pigs for drug dealers.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-04-11, 07:39 PM
Let's consider why anyone would buy a luxury compact. It's not because america is cramped and you need a small car to navigate like it is in Europe, nor is it trendy to own a small, cute car. The only reason why any luxury car companies are considering selling a compact car is due to the mileage and the price of fuel. If you could give someone the luxury of a reasonably sized car with great mileage (hybrid, electric, diesel) then that car would be the sales champion. That's why the 3 Series diesel is so popular, and the E Class diesel, etc etc....because you get great mileage and you don't make any sacrifices (aside from a slightly noisier engine and a different powerband) to get it.

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 08:14 PM
Let's consider why anyone would buy a luxury compact. It's not because america is cramped and you need a small car to navigate like it is in Europe, nor is it trendy to own a small, cute car. The only reason why any luxury car companies are considering selling a compact car is due to the mileage and the price of fuel. If you could give someone the luxury of a reasonably sized car with great mileage (hybrid, electric, diesel) then that car would be the sales champion. That's why the 3 Series diesel is so popular, and the E Class diesel, etc etc....because you get great mileage and you don't make any sacrifices (aside from a slightly noisier engine and a different powerband) to get it.

Brilliant. I don't understand where the concept comes from that an efficient car has to be a shoebox. Figure out how to make an average sized car achieve higher fuel economy numbers and shit or get off the damn pot, but a compact is NOT the answer.

To put it a little more succinctly... If the situation really ever gets SO bad that the fuel economy of a car like say, an ES300... or a CTS... or a G37, is still insufficient to offset the cost of fuel prices, this country is going to have FAR larger problems on its hands than how small we can make a car. The SUVs I like so much? Ok, I get that. But when you can't drive a mid-size car because you fear going to the pump, you may as well just give up driving altogether. In a country that is 3000 miles wide, by however many thousand miles up and down, rollerskate cars are NEVER going to be a long term solution.

Jesda
03-04-11, 09:23 PM
The only good reason to make a luxury-ish car smaller is to give it sharper handling and reduce weight. Its why the BMW 3-series formula works so well, and the C-class doesn't.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-04-11, 10:36 PM
Well yeah, but the 3 Series isn't a compact like a Buick Verona is. The 3 Series isn't that much smaller than a CTS.

drewsdeville
03-04-11, 11:07 PM
While my old '90 isn't exactly compact, it is quite small even by todays standards. I actually appreciate and prefer the car's relatively small size over all of my old cars. I find it more pleasing to drive in the city, it's easy to park and maneuver, it's cozy rather than cavernous and empty, and it's more than enough space for what I need. FWIW, it doesn't get any better mileage than most of my old cars either.

This car has permanently turned me off from large sedans. I'm serious. I just like what it's small size has to offer from behind the wheel.

There are many reasons to go for a compact luxury car over a full sized. You just need to be able to appreciate what a compact's offerings. If you can't appreciate them, or if they really don't apply to you, then fuel savings seems like it's the most obvious reason for them. I, for one, like the idea of luxury compacts, regardless of brand.

Jesda
03-05-11, 12:17 AM
Lexus, as a brand, is not significantly associated with performance or driving pleasure. Its a different kind of customer with a different image to protect and maintain. Its still a high end demographic (income, education) envied by most of the industry, but a Lexus buyer tends to favor dependability, refinement, and gadgetry over handling, acceleration, and feedback. That's not what today's Cadillac is really about. Lexus swallowed up most of Mercedes, Lincoln, and Cadillac's customers in the 90s, if you recall, and Toyota as a whole is now faced with an aging customer base as a result. GM saw the writing on the wall and said it was do or die for Cadillac, so the brand had to change dramatically.

Modern Cadillac is defined by three main characteristics:
1. Comfort
2. Art and Science design, for better or worse
3. Performance

If #1 is compromised, #3 has to make up the difference to maintain value for the customer. Its why the BMW 3-series is so consistently successful -- the car's smaller size is a part of its performance, rather than just being a cheap downsized version of the 5- and 7-series. Its why Mercedes is not currently offering its B-class in the US.

The Buick Verano's price tag is low enough to move metal, and Buick is in the middle of finding a new identity in the absence of Pontiac and Saturn. Its a near-luxury brand with room to stretch from 20k to 45k. Cadillac isn't in the same position.

Stuffing the Cruze with Cadillac furniture, as they did with the Equinox to create the SRX, like they did with the Saab 9-3 to create the BLS, isn't good enough to win over BMW owners, but I'm sure someone at GM is thinking about doing it anyway.

The rear-drive ATS will likely take after the 3-series, so being a compact car will hopefully enhance the way it drives.


So, to summarize:
Tarted up Cruze will not work.
RWD or AWD 1-series/3-series competitor will work.

Jesda
03-05-11, 12:22 AM
Well yeah, but the 3 Series isn't a compact like a Buick Verona is. The 3 Series isn't that much smaller than a CTS.

Well, the CTS has gotten heavier and bigger, so now the CTS is encroaching on 5-series territory, making room for a smaller Cadillac. One thing that helped sell the CTS even back in 2003 was that it offered near-5-series space for 3-series money.

The 3-series really is a lot smaller inside. EPA calls the 3-series a compact and calls the CTS a midsize.

drewsdeville
03-05-11, 12:39 AM
Stuffing the Cruze with Cadillac furniture, as they did with the Equinox to create the SRX, like they did with the Saab 9-3 to create the BLS, isn't good enough to win over BMW owners, but I'm sure someone at GM is thinking about doing it anyway.

So, to summarize:
Tarted up Cruze will not work.
RWD or AWD 1-series/3-series competitor will work.


This. GM never gets it right the first time. They have to try the easy way out first, even if it's nearly guaranteed failure. I think there IS a market for a luxury compact, even with Cadillac's name on it, but I don't have faith that they'd do it right if they tried. If THAT's what was meant by the Chevy Cruze argument, then I agree 100%.

EChas3
03-06-11, 09:35 PM
Well, the CTS has gotten heavier and bigger, so now the CTS is encroaching on 5-series territory, making room for a smaller Cadillac. One thing that helped sell the CTS even back in 2003 was that it offered near-5-series space for 3-series money.

The 3-series really is a lot smaller inside. EPA calls the 3-series a compact and calls the CTS a midsize.

Even though the (nearly) retired DTS is called 'full-size', it is an example of how car sizes have been re-defined & downsized. The STS is an authentic mid-size. The XTS will not be much bigger than the STS but will be called full-size. The CTS feels and is smaller than mid-size. Look at all the cross-overs and imagine how they will do the same thing to SUV's & Mini-vans.

The poblem with a Cadillac 'compact' is just how small it would have to be. How can it not be a matchbox?

Jesda
03-07-11, 10:24 AM
Indeed, it will definitely be tiny, but that's exactly what sport-luxury buyers are looking for. They're usually guys in their mid 20s to late 30s who still have a taste for sporty cars but want to show off some of what they've achieved with a luxury badge.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-07-11, 10:34 AM
The 3 Series would be the benchmark to shoot for in terms of size. It's small, but it's not "tiny". When someone says "tiny car" I picture a Fiesta, Aveo, Cruze or Focus. No true luxury car should ever be that small.

Jesda
03-07-11, 10:53 AM
I think some subcompacts have more interior volume than the 3-coupe.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-07-11, 11:12 AM
Yes, but that's because a lot of them are hatchbacks. They may be roomy inside, but a lot of those cars are tiny outside, and they don't project the image that the typical buyer of a luxury sport sedan wants. Like you said in your earlier post, these are cars bought by a lot of 25-35 year old men, who want to show they still love a sporty car, but want to show their hard work has paid off buy owning a luxury brand. Brand image & equity is huge in this segment, and it won't show with a tiny car. That's probably a lot of the reasoning why the A3 doesn't sell well and why Mercedes has never imported the A-Class.

Jesda
03-07-11, 01:39 PM
Yeah thats definitely true

Playdrv4me
03-07-11, 02:17 PM
3 Series has never projected the image of a small car despite its interior volume. It comes across as having just the right size for what it intends to do.

orconn
03-07-11, 02:30 PM
The 3 series BMW has evolved from a small "nimble" car to a mid size hephalump that could hardly be called "sporty" except in its' most expensive iterations. In this category Cadillac already has the CTS, a smaller nimbler car would have to be a very good handler to have any chance in this segment. It would also have to have very good looks (BMW and Japanese makers have given Cadillac a real opening here) to become a "prestige" entry in these ranks. So far Cadillac has failed miserably in coming up with a competitor in the sub-compact category.

OffThaHorseCEO
03-07-11, 05:58 PM
im guilty of skipping a couple of pages, so forgive if this has been said.

Yes, Cadillac is getting away from the land yacht image but econoboxes are just that, econo boxes. I doubt the lexus hybrid gets as good mileage as it really could. if it does its probably a crappy lexus compared to any other lexus. The reason is quality usually equals weight, and weight hurts economy.

To be honest, if done right, i think a cadillac compact would sell well, but it would cheapen the brand. Sal, you mentioned in another post that youd like to see cadillac produce less units at higher revenue instead of more units with less revenue per unit. I agree. Even, as you said, if that means i can no longer afford a cadillac. Bringing out a compact/hybrid Cadillac would be the thing to do if they wanted to take a crack at the luxury-eco-compact market, and make some money.But, how many compact Rolls Royces or Bentleys are out there?

agp
03-07-11, 06:02 PM
I think people who are extensively concerned about getting something affordable probably wouldn't get Cadillacs.

Aron9000
03-07-11, 07:13 PM
I think people who are extensively concerned about getting something affordable probably wouldn't get Cadillacs.

And that's the way things should be. I think 35k is a good entry point for the new ATS, so even by the time you talk the dealer down/incentives on that base base base ATS, you're still looking at 30k out the door minimum for the cheapest Cadillac.

orconn
03-07-11, 07:39 PM
30k ain't what used to be, car price wise. Cads should start at around 40k at the least. Let Buick sell in the 30k to 40k range. Upper echelon Cads should sell from $60,000 on up. Of course it goes without saying that they should be worth their price!

Lord Cadillac
03-09-11, 01:06 PM
The Lexus CT200h does get 40+ miles per gallon - but it's not much of a "luxury" car. It IS the nicest car out there to get 40+ MPG - but it's not luxury. The leather is cheaper than other Lexus vehicles, the materials inside are a bit cheaper, etcetera.. It's a nice looking car inside and out (in my opinion) - but it's not a luxury car. It's a car made by a luxury manufacturer.. So you'll get the luxury customer service experience - and probably good Lexus reliability - but the car isn't very luxurious...

I don't think we should ever compare Cadillac to Bentley or Rolls Royce. Cadillac is never going to be competitive with those makes unless they take a huge step down the later, beneath brands like Mercedes and BMW.

Cadillac should simply have the most expensive luxury compact vehicle available at GM. And, of course, it should be of the highest quality.


im guilty of skipping a couple of pages, so forgive if this has been said.

Yes, Cadillac is getting away from the land yacht image but econoboxes are just that, econo boxes. I doubt the lexus hybrid gets as good mileage as it really could. if it does its probably a crappy lexus compared to any other lexus. The reason is quality usually equals weight, and weight hurts economy.

To be honest, if done right, i think a cadillac compact would sell well, but it would cheapen the brand. Sal, you mentioned in another post that youd like to see cadillac produce less units at higher revenue instead of more units with less revenue per unit. I agree. Even, as you said, if that means i can no longer afford a cadillac. Bringing out a compact/hybrid Cadillac would be the thing to do if they wanted to take a crack at the luxury-eco-compact market, and make some money.But, how many compact Rolls Royces or Bentleys are out there?