: What would be better for Cadillac's future?



Lord Cadillac
03-02-11, 05:41 PM
Somebody recently mentioned how people will pay $10k-$20k or more for a Rolex - even though a Timex tells better time..

Some people will buy a $3000 handbag - which doesn't do anything any better than a $50 handbag..

How about designer sunglasses? $500? Sometimes more?

People who buy expensive things like this are buying into a lifestyle. More often than not, they're spending more for less.. This happens all the time when somebody buys a Mercedes or BMW for more money than a Cadillac - with less options.

Should Cadillac customers be buying into a lifestyle? Should Cadillac cater to this lifestyle? Or not?

Jesda
03-02-11, 06:06 PM
It takes consistency and commitment to build a brand like Rolex, two things a company like GM doesn't historically have.

drewsdeville
03-02-11, 06:11 PM
^^^Yeah.

Even if Cadillac induced more exclusivity by lowering production and raising costs, the same guy who pays $20k for a Rolex won't be interested. Cadillac doesn't mean anything in terms of lifestyle. Cadillac has always been a contemporary, mass produced GM vehicle with flashy looks and leather seats, and it's image reflects that.

So no, it should not be trying to attract another lifestyle because it could never succeed in doing so.

orconn
03-02-11, 06:38 PM
I agree that that the prestige brands confer a certain "lifestyle" mystique upon the owners .... or at least wearers. With automobiles, at least, this mystique is rather sullied by the reality that on a given day in Los Angeles and other major cities, one can find Mercedes S class and BMW (by the dozens) park out front of $1000. a month (bottom of the rental scale in cities) apartments all over the place. You will find Cadillacs too, but to a lesser degree since they no longer convey the "instant" sense of having arrived that their more exalted European and Japanese rivals do. Let's face it "lease" financing put "prestige" cars within the acquisition bracket of just about anybody with a middle class paycheck. Recently this has changed somewhat, but now a moderately used example of instant prestige can be had by most working people.

The same thing goes for other prestige items. Polo Black Label can bought at Marshall's, and their outlet stores nationwide. The knock offs of Rolex's can be bought on line, as can their equally prestigious makes.

Cadillac needs to emphasize and advertise their truly "top drawer" products like the "Platinum Editions." They are on the right track with these higher quality vehicles. But the public isn't aware of these premium products. This is especially true at a time when high bracket buyers are looking to quality as opposed to the "Flash" of an instantly recognizable show of wealth.

Playdrv4me
03-02-11, 06:41 PM
Hmm... I think I'm 100 percent in agreement with Jesda and Drew here, except that I often hear the older guys around here talking about how in the '50s, '60s and even into the '70s... before the Japanese and European brands had established themselves, Cadillac really WAS like the "Rolex" of the car world... the car every man worked his whole life to obtain.

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 11:36 AM
I'd prefer Cadillac to be something the masses cannot afford. I'd rather Cadillac had fewer customers with more revenue rather than more customers with less revenue. I'd like to see a domestic automobile company that's highly regarded as owned by people who've achieved a certain level of success not attainable by everyone. If that means I can no longer afford a Cadillac, so be it...

drewsdeville
03-03-11, 01:45 PM
Then it would have to be divorced from GM

Jesda
03-03-11, 01:51 PM
This is going to depend entirely on Buick's ability to satisfy the masses with near-luxury so Cadillac can be pushed up the chain. Buick sales are way up, so maybe the plan is working.

RippyPartsDept
03-03-11, 01:57 PM
i think it kind of depends on what the XTS actually is when it hits the showrooms and the streets later this year? (it will be later this year, right?)

the XTS is going to shape the perception of Cadillac for the next couple years (at least), right?

Jesda
03-03-11, 02:06 PM
XTS will simply be a filler car to try and keep customers from defecting to other brands while they develop the sedan they really want to see on the market.

RippyPartsDept
03-03-11, 02:27 PM
yeah i guess the ATS will be a standard bearer for the brand also in a year or two

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 02:30 PM
Then it would have to be divorced from GM

Not necessarily - but that would make things so much easier.. If Cadillac can continue to make profits by selling their vehicles inexpensively - I HOPE they take that revenue and use it to build products that can at least remotely make Cadillac once again the "Standard of the World". I know, that's not going to happen - but at least being competitive with Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar and Lexus would be great things for Cadillac's reputation...


This is going to depend entirely on Buick's ability to satisfy the masses with near-luxury so Cadillac can be pushed up the chain. Buick sales are way up, so maybe the plan is working.

It's scary how quickly Buick has improved.. I remember hearing Buick referred to as the "Domestic Lexus" several years ago.. It's finally happening.. They're doing a really great job at building near-luxury cars.. Chevrolet has come a long way as well.. GM is really on a role.. It's just a shame, to me, that Cadillac has to be the last one to properly fill-out in the mold it's supposed to be in.

I think it'll happen - I just wish it wouldn't take so long.. I want to see Cadillac hold onto their customers.


i think it kind of depends on what the XTS actually is when it hits the showrooms and the streets later this year? (it will be later this year, right?)

the XTS is going to shape the perception of Cadillac for the next couple years (at least), right?


XTS will simply be a filler car to try and keep customers from defecting to other brands while they develop the sedan they really want to see on the market.

While the XTS IS a stop-gap, I haven't been hearing anything about a flagship in awhile. That's another thing that worries me..

Maybe Cadillac is waiting for the sales revenue from the ATS and XTS before they make any definite plans to move forward with a proper flagship. If the ATS and XTS aren't well-received, there's going to be serious problems.. The CTS series and SRX are doing great - but Cadillac needs more...

I love the Escalade but I have a strong feeling we're going to be seeing tough times in regards to gas prices for awhile..

The Tony Show
03-03-11, 02:37 PM
I've said it a million times on here- MB, BMW and Audi make all their money on entry cars. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of their sales come from cars with pleather, manual seats and wimpy engines at the bottom of their product line. Despite the fact that those cars are their major seller, they don't define the company. They take the profits from those cars and build S-Classes and 7 Series cars to sell in small volume, and everyone's image of the company comes from what they read about those cars.

Cadillac expects a 35-50% sales increase from the ATS. If it happens, THEN they'll be able to afford to build a world class flagship which will improve the perception of the rest of the brand. Not before.

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 02:41 PM
The entry-level cars are always the big sellers. It's the cars at the other end that usually get people interested in the brand. They buy the entry-level with the hopes of upgrading, eventually, to the top of the line. When Cadillac gets to the point where they can build that top of the line vehicle, I hope they move up-market...

The Tony Show
03-03-11, 03:12 PM
There will always be a need for the entry level, no options, cheaply built luxury car. Even with a hugely upmarket car like an S-Class, MB would fold without the C class volume and income.

Cadillac is in a bit of a catch-22 right now. They can't build a flagship because they still lack brand cache and funds and need a true entry level car to get there. Problem is that entry cars sell well (in part) because of their aspirational nature, i.e, "I'll get the C Class now because it's made by the same people who build the S class I want one day", and without a Cadillac flagship to aspire to, that motivational sales tool is missing.

At this point in history with the green movement, gas prices and other factors, introducing a flagship is a tough sell. Most flapping heads on TV and the Internet would complain that they should be spending their R&D money on building a Cadillac Hybrid or plug-in, even though though the actual sales figures of those vehicles doesn't reflect the desire people claim to have. Entrenched products like the S and 7 aren't going anywhere because they already exist, but making a case to both the Corporate Analysts AND the public that an all-new flagship has a place is difficult.

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 04:04 PM
If there were only a way to build a full-size flagship that got impressive gas mileage..

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 04:28 PM
Mercedes and Lexus seem to have that covered with the S400 Hybrid and the LS600hL. I believe BMW has their own magic with the 7 series as well. Certainly fuel economy consistently north of 20mpg is more than enough for anyone who can afford a car of that segment anyway.

hueterm
03-03-11, 04:31 PM
However, it's not good enough for the Nannystate...

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 05:08 PM
If gas gets really expensive like it could, it won't be good enough for anybody but the wealthiest people.

billc83
03-03-11, 05:56 PM
I actually am warming up to the way Cadillac has been approaching their whole situation, even if they are a year or so behind.

- The upcoming ATS should bolster sales. New Cadillac owners will be created because of it.
- Everyone knows the XTS is a filler car until a real flagship can be made. People buying the ATS now can look forward to a Cadillac flagship when they upgrade their ride in 4 - 5 years.

The only thing I don't understand about this is why the Sixteen hasn't been greenlit. Even if they had to dumb it down a bit. The Sixteen was universally acclaimed (I haven't met many who didn't like the design) and Car and Driver just had a little article about the "Upcoming Cadillac Flagship" with what I pray was a bad photoshopped photo. Because the car was ugly.

Seriously. Just greenlight the Sixteen.

Lord Cadillac
03-03-11, 08:30 PM
The flagship is just talk right now. There's no engine for it. There's not even a platform for it. I think it's going to be a lot longer than 4-5 years after the XTS is ready unless they rush as fast as they can to get it to market.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 08:37 PM
If gas really got so bad that driving miserable tiny shitboxes was the only way to maintain driving freedom, then I probably would just buy a Prius or CT-200h. Better yet? I'd just get a used CR-X or Del Sol and have some actual "fun". There is no way my head could wrap itself around a SMALL Cadillac just for the sake of having the badge. That's not what Cadillac is about. BLS works in Europe because they don't have much choice, though I don't know how well that car actually sells. Like I said, the only possible exception to this is the Evoq, which brings enough to the table to deal with a somewhat smaller overall package.

RippyPartsDept
03-03-11, 08:39 PM
yeah, 4-5 years is the lead time when they have a product design nailed down - i'm pretty sure they're not even in the design stages of a 'flagship' currently ...

hueterm
03-03-11, 08:40 PM
If gas gets really expensive like it could, it won't be good enough for anybody but the wealthiest people.

It's not going to get that expensive. First, as the price increases, consumption will decrease -- lowering the price.

Second, the general public is in much less of a position to absorb those high prices again. The high 2007/2008 prices are what drove us into recession. More people are in a more precarious financial position now, than then, and can't take another hit after 2 years of housing declines, commodity increases, and higher unemployment.

Third, if it does, DC will look like Cairo and Tripoli, and Nannybama will get thrown out of office. It was almost to that point in 2008, and would be much more likely now. His replacement will surely fully open U.S. drilling, which would drive prices down further -- even before the first drop of oil hit the market.

That's not to say it won't be painful, but I don't see a sustained $5/gallon...something will break before then.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 08:43 PM
It's not going to get that expensive. First, as the price increases, consumption will decrease -- lowering the price.

Second, the general public is in much less of a position to absorb those high prices again. The high 2007/2008 prices are what drove us into recession. More people are in a more precarious financial position now, than then, and can't take another hit after 2 years of housing declines, commodity increases, and higher unemployment.

Third, if it does, DC will look like Cairo and Tripoli, and Nannybama will get thrown out of office. It was almost to that point in 2008, and would be much more likely now. His replacement will surely fully open U.S. drilling, which would drive prices down further -- even before the first drop of oil hit the market.

That's not to say it won't be painful, but I don't see a sustained $5/gallon...something will break before then.

The best part of the 2008 Fuel crisis was the sweet sweet fuel prices that came later that winter. Some places came close to (or maybe under?) $2.00 for the first time in YEARS.

billc83
03-03-11, 08:45 PM
If gas really got so bad that driving miserable tiny shitboxes was the only way to maintain driving freedom, then I probably would just buy a Prius or CT-200h. Better yet? I'd just get a used CR-X or Del Sol and have some actual "fun". There is no way my head could wrap itself around a SMALL Cadillac just for the sake of having the badge. That's not what Cadillac is about. BLS works in Europe because they don't have much choice, though I don't know how well that car actually sells. Like I said, the only possible exception to this is the Evoq, which brings enough to the table to deal with a somewhat smaller overall package.

The BLS didn't work in Europe. Sales figures reflected that. Cadillac has very limited appeal overseas.

I think you're refering to the Converj concept as the Volt based concept car. The Evoq was the basis for the XLR.

Playdrv4me
03-03-11, 08:49 PM
The BLS didn't work in Europe. Sales figures reflected that. Cadillac has very limited appeal overseas.

I think you're refering to the Converj concept as the Volt based concept car. The Evoq was the basis for the XLR.

Sorry, you're absolutely correct. I had a feeling that was wrong.

hueterm
03-03-11, 08:54 PM
I could maybe see paying $40K for a Cadillac version w/a nicer interior...but for the Volt...no way...

Lord Cadillac
03-04-11, 01:03 PM
If gas really got so bad that driving miserable tiny shitboxes was the only way to maintain driving freedom, then I probably would just buy a Prius or CT-200h. Better yet? I'd just get a used CR-X or Del Sol and have some actual "fun". There is no way my head could wrap itself around a SMALL Cadillac just for the sake of having the badge. That's not what Cadillac is about. BLS works in Europe because they don't have much choice, though I don't know how well that car actually sells. Like I said, the only possible exception to this is the Evoq, which brings enough to the table to deal with a somewhat smaller overall package.

What makes you think a compact Cadillac can't be nice like the Converj? I'm sure Cadillac wouldn't make the same mistake they made with the Cimarron.. I'm sure a compact Cadillac would be nice... It doesn't have to be a miserable, tiny shit box.


yeah, 4-5 years is the lead time when they have a product design nailed down - i'm pretty sure they're not even in the design stages of a 'flagship' currently ...

Right. There are no definite plans for a flagship at this point in time. Though some Cadillac executives would like there to be.

The Tony Show
03-04-11, 01:09 PM
True story: Ed Welburn has a picture of a Cimmaron hanging on the wall in his office, with the caption "So we never forget".

Lord Cadillac
03-04-11, 01:22 PM
They should never forget trying to pass a F'ing CAVALIER off as a Cadillac... I doubt that'll ever happen again.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/1st_Chevrolet_Cavalier_sedan.jpg/800px-1st_Chevrolet_Cavalier_sedan.jpg

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 07:11 PM
Sure, that's easy to say retrospectively because we see how much of a shitbox that old Cavalier is now... but was it really all that much worse for its early years (when the Cimarron was conceived) than the Cruze is now? That's why im convinced that GM execs make a point of remembering that failure... not literally to pick on the cavalier, but to never again repeat the mistake of trying to foist a car from THAT segment of its most plaebian brand on buyers of its PREMIUM brand. It doesn't matter HOW good the Cruze is, you pull a Verano at Cadillac, and Cimarron comparisons will instantly start flying, I guarantee it.

Id go as far as to say that hideous Smart sized thing would probably be better received than the Cruze for no other reason than it being, exclusive, new and different. At least to those who place those attributes above brand history.

No doubt the Verano is a great little car, so that's too bad.

orconn
03-04-11, 08:29 PM
There is one car that is a glaring rebuttal to the above statement. In 1976 Cadillac introduced the Seville which utilized the chassis of the lower echelon Chevy Nova of that period. But in this case Cadillac went back to the drawing board to design a "true" Cadillac to be built around the Nova's body shell. The car they came up with was a step forward in design and technology and one that employed materials that were higher quality than those use on contemporary full sized Cadillacs. What resulted was a car that was superior to other Cadillac offerings of that year, but was considerably smaller, yet much more elegantly designed and would head the 1976 Cadillac line up in price. The 1976 Cadillac Seville became an instant success on both Coasts and was ubiquitous in the parking lots of establishments popular with the wealthiest Americans. To be honest, the '76-'79 Seville was probably the last Cadillac, or American car of any make, to give the European luxury car makers real competition in the high priced field!

Ford and Chrysler tried this same approach, but cheaping it out, with the Lincoln Versailles and Chrysler Imperial, respectedly, both of which felt far short of the Seville's sales appeal and prestige.

Playdrv4me
03-04-11, 09:21 PM
There is one car that is a glaring rebuttal to the above statement. In 1976 Cadillac introduced the Seville which utilized the chassis of the lower echelon Chevy Nova of that period. But in this case Cadillac went back to the drawing board to design a "true" Cadillac to be built around the Nova's body shell. The car they came up with was a step forward in design and technology and one that employed materials that were higher quality than those use on contemporary full sized Cadillacs. What resulted was a car that was superior to other Cadillac offerings of that year, but was considerably smaller, yet much more elegantly designed and would head the 1976 Cadillac line up in price. The 1976 Cadillac Seville became an instant success on both Coasts and was ubiquitous in the parking lots of establishments popular with the wealthiest Americans. To be honest, the '76-'79 Seville was probably the last Cadillac, or American car of any make, to give the European luxury car makers real competition in the high priced field!

Ford and Chrysler tried this same approach, but cheaping it out, with the Lincoln Versailles and Chrysler Imperial, respectedly, both of which felt far short of the Seville's sales appeal and prestige.

Yes, but the key difference is that the Seville was *NOT* a compact car. For that matter, you could use the Continental, which had been a re-bodied Taurus since the mid-80s, but can be considered a sales success. The problem with the Cimarron was that it was not only a light rehash of the Cavalier, but that it was ALSO a COMPACT series car on TOP of that. You can have one of those, but you can NOT have both, and that's why the Cimarron failed.

Jesda
03-04-11, 10:25 PM
Plus, as far as compacts go, the J-bodies were particularly awful.

DouglasJRizzo
03-05-11, 09:18 AM
This topic has been brought up before and it's a good one. If you look at the automotive buying habits from post WW2 to the late 70s/early80s you'll see that in many ways people were buying a "Cadillac" lifestyle, even though the division never really marketed such a thing. I've seen BMW and MB dealers selling respective jackets, t-shirts, cookbooks, club memberships, etc, and "maybe" this is something Cadillac should look into.

First things first. Cars like the CTS-V have to retain their "bite" and horsepower, and strive to maintain roadworthiness. They're a great start but Cadillac needs to maintain this. If they do, and make certain other changes, I think that they'll be able to command higher prices and develop a lifestyle following.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-05-11, 09:29 AM
I've seen BMW and MB dealers selling respective jackets, t-shirts, cookbooks, club memberships, etc, and "maybe" this is something Cadillac should look into.

That to me, is a big deal when buying a car. I like the fact that BMW/Mercedes and Audi offers all sorts of branded apparel and gifts. Heck, they offer so much stuff that their apparel & gift collection is so large that it warrants it's own catalog. That to me shows massive brand confidence and proudness. When the dealer sees the opportunity to not only stock their shelves with the necessary parts and equipment needed for the cars, but apparel, goodies and other swag, it shows that they feel their brand is of a high enough quality to spend the shelf space on that.

Cadillac doesn't offer anything like this...yet. When I go into most Cadillac dealers, their apparel and stuff is a small selection in a glass case in the parts department, but my favorite Cadillac dealer in the area has it on display in the showroom as well, because their selection is vast enough to warrant it. Most Cadillac dealers don't keep their entire selection on hand, just some hats & shirts, whereas the BMW dealers in my area all have separate gift shops off the showroom that have large varieties of BMW apparel & gifts on display and ready for purchase. Almost their entire catalog is there, so you don't have to go through the inconvenience of having it ordered and having to pop back in later.

Jeep is another brand where the dealers have lots of jeep branded merchandise on display. Actually, come to think of it, most every Chrysler dealer I've ever seen has a lot of Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep merchandise on display in the parts department... I think they're required to.

RippyPartsDept
03-05-11, 10:33 AM
http://cadillaccollection.com

[edit: oh, I see you guys are talking about having the stuff on display at the dealer]

Jesda
03-05-11, 12:34 PM
I've noticed that too -- C/D/J dealers love to sell brand stuff, mostly Dodge and Jeep.

orconn
03-05-11, 02:17 PM
Personally, I would no sooner wear "Auto branded" apparel than I would wear a "bowling" shirt! But each to their own!

V-Eight
03-05-11, 02:25 PM
I'd rock this:

http://www.cadillaccollection.com/images/merchandise/CD00520.png

In fact, I will probably buy it.

Jesda
03-05-11, 02:29 PM
My brother got me a size XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL Chrysler jacket for a buck at a Steve and Barry's liquidation sale:

http://www.q45.org/uploads2/Spokane%20Winter%202008/DCP_3353.JPG
[Friends of mine pictured wearing it.]

Its made of cheaper material than the interior of a Sebring.

GizmoQ
03-06-11, 01:02 AM
Personally, I would no sooner wear "Auto branded" apparel than I would wear a "bowling" shirt! But each to their own!

Hey, I like my polo shirt.
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/Midwest%20Marauders/poloshirt0026x8.jpg

Playdrv4me
03-06-11, 01:04 AM
Hey, I like my polo shirt.
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/Midwest%20Marauders/poloshirt0026x8.jpg

I'll take 5.

orconn
03-06-11, 01:17 AM
Hey, I like my polo shirt.
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/Midwest%20Marauders/poloshirt0026x8.jpg

Your polo is "personalized" not "auto branded" there's a big difference!

GizmoQ
03-06-11, 01:31 AM
I'll take 5.

Gotta own one to get one. hehehe :eyebrow:

GizmoQ
03-06-11, 01:36 AM
Your polo is "personalized" not "auto branded" there's a big difference!

Whatda ya think dat is above my name??

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-06-11, 09:18 AM
I've got all sorts of various automotive branded baseball caps. Ferrari, Cadillac, Lambo, Chevy, Buick, Nissan, Lincoln, etc etc. Also got a BMW t-shirt, a Cadillac t-shirt and a Cadillac sweatshirt.

hueterm
03-06-11, 11:29 AM
I'm kind of on the fence re: apparel. I'm definitely of the opinion that less is more. The problem is that Cadillac's current assortment sucks.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-06-11, 12:19 PM
I'm actually wearing my Lamborghini T-shirt today that I bought at the Lambo dealership during the 2009 Chicago meet.

EChas3
03-06-11, 09:43 PM
How about Rick Hendrick building Cadillacs to race in NASCAR 2013 against the Mustang & Camry?

RippyPartsDept
03-06-11, 09:56 PM
How about Rick Hendrick building Cadillacs to race in NASCAR 2013 against the Mustang & Camry?

that would be awesome! where did you get this brilliant idea?

Destroyer
03-06-11, 10:36 PM
IMO Cadillac should try to be what it was..............a fancy Chevy. Put tried and proven powerplants in the car (like the CTS-V). Stop trying to imitate the imports (even Hyundai did a better job). Be what it was...........a solid, upscale GM car that has it's own image, not some Mercedes or BMW clone..

Playdrv4me
03-06-11, 10:54 PM
So you're asking a luxury brand to throw away any idea of PROGRESS and instead REGRESS 30 years? I don't like these smaller newer cars any more than the next Cadillac guy, but even have to admit that there needs to be variety and progress in the vehicle mix. Cadillac spent DECADES trying to convince the world EXACTLY that it was NOT a "fancy Chevy". They developed Cadillac specific engines because those ancient OHV power plants, while excellent for specialty vehicles, are NOT what mainstream luxury buyers cross-shopping Cadillac with Lexus, Acura and Mercedes expect. And yea, sorry to say, you call yourself Luxury or "near luxury", you gotta compete with MB and BMW... just the way it is.

The problem now is we're headed in a direction where the pissing match of N* versus OHV versus DOHC just plain isn't going to matter, because it looks like for the foreseeable future we're gonna get Acura'ed to death with a whole slew of four and six cylinder engines, ONE halo performance car with OHV power and a gussied up Tahoe (the only real "fancy" Chevy, along with the Fleetwood that has existed in recent history). The brand has completely lost any aspiration to build a full size car with a proper V8 to compete on a world stage, and that's a problem. Also, just because the Fleetwood was Cadillac's largest (and arguably best) car in the '90s, even many Cadillac execs did NOT acknowledge that as the brand's flagship. That honor frequently was bestowed upon the Seville due to it's technological content. Same goes for the Escalade, which while the Fleetwood's closest spiritual successor, is not considered a flagship vehicle.

I have NEVER faulted Cadillac for going FWD, nor have I ever faulted them for what they were trying to achieve with the N* engine project... I fault them for doing a typically GM-shitty job at it.

drewsdeville
03-06-11, 11:26 PM
Well said.

DouglasJRizzo
03-07-11, 10:49 AM
The problem now is we're headed in a direction where the pissing match of N* versus OHV versus DOHC just plain isn't going to matter, because it looks like for the foreseeable future we're gonna get Acura'ed to death with a whole slew of four and six cylinder engines, ONE halo performance car with OHV power and a gussied up Tahoe (the only real "fancy" Chevy, along with the Fleetwood that has existed in recent history). The brand has completely lost any aspiration to build a full size car with a proper V8 to compete on a world stage, and that's a problem. Also, just because the Fleetwood was Cadillac's largest (and arguably best) car in the '90s, even many Cadillac execs did NOT acknowledge that as the brand's flagship. That honor frequently was bestowed upon the Seville due to it's technological content. Same goes for the Escalade, which while the Fleetwood's closest spiritual successor, is not considered a flagship vehicle.

I have NEVER faulted Cadillac for going FWD, nor have I ever faulted them for what they were trying to achieve with the N* engine project... I fault them for doing a typically GM-shitty job at it.

I have to agree with you for the most part. Although I've always been of the belief that FWD has no place in the current lineup, I do believe that Cadillac's worst enemy has been GM. You would think with the resources that GM has, there wouldn't be a problem, but that's not the case. They just flat out REFUSE to build what needs to be built.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-07-11, 11:09 AM
It's a typical "big corporation" problem. Instead of using a lot their resources and money to expedite Cadillac's growth and development, GM is slowing their developmental progress by sending money and research to other brands, while restricting Cadillac's growth and development with their "corporate restrictions". Smaller independent manufacturers, such as BMW, Mercedes and perhaps Spyker are a lot smaller and don't have all the restrictions and corporate beauracracy to deal with, which will only help get a cool product from concept to reality much quicker.

Aron9000
03-07-11, 08:07 PM
It's a typical "big corporation" problem. Instead of using a lot their resources and money to expedite Cadillac's growth and development, GM is slowing their developmental progress by sending money and research to other brands, while restricting Cadillac's growth and development with their "corporate restrictions". Smaller independent manufacturers, such as BMW, Mercedes and perhaps Spyker are a lot smaller and don't have all the restrictions and corporate beauracracy to deal with, which will only help get a cool product from concept to reality much quicker.

This sounds exactly like the "old" GM way of doing things, and it seems like they're doing that with Cadillac right now.

Somebody mentioned that Cadillac is looking at the "Acura" model of building their product/brand. This has to be the most foolhearty endevor, because Acura is nothing more than a fancy Honda under the skin. Acura has nothing in the over 50k price catergory to compete with the E-Class, any Jaguar, BMW 5 series, X5 BMW, GL Benz SUV, Audi A6, much less any of those Euro brands real high end offerings or specialty convertibles/coupes.

The TSX is sold as the Honda Accord in Europe as their mainstream family car for christ's sake. The TL is a reskinned american Accord with optional AWD. The MDX is nothing more than a reskinned Honda Pilot. Acura is not luxury, its a clever way for Honda to mark up their existing lineup another 10-20k with minimal investment. Same exact thing can be said of Lincoln and the Lexus ES330/GX470.


EDIT: I drive one of those "fancy Chevy" Cadillacs, and I will say that other than the look and interior appointments, it drives just like a Chevy Caprice. I love it for that, because it never breaks down and is stupid cheap to fix. Although I would be driving a much superior machine like a Seville or Eldorado if GM hadn't totally thrown quality and good engineering out the window with those models.

RippyPartsDept
03-07-11, 10:07 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/223645-disappointed-new-used-cadillac-owner.html#post2519532

found a good suggestion in another thread


GM should just put the LT5 back in production exclusively for Cadillac sedans. That would make a few people happy, and it is a hell of a lot better engine than the N*. With up to date heads, cams, ignition, and injection, it would make 500hp without breaking a sweat.
http://zr1key.com/index_files/lt5CutAway.JPG

Aron9000
03-08-11, 02:56 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/223645-disappointed-new-used-cadillac-owner.html#post2519532

found a good suggestion in another thread

That's actually a really good idea, but instead make it based on the new LS based architecture. DOCH, 6.0 liter displacement, 500hp would be pretty damn sweet. Maybe make a smaller 4.5-5.0 displacement version if it will net us significantly better fuel economy.

Playdrv4me
03-08-11, 03:16 AM
I'm onboard with that. Alright, let's do this!

Aron9000
03-08-11, 04:54 AM
^ I do concede a point that based on pure prestige and snobbery, that Cadillac should use a v8 that is significantly different from a Chevy truck v8. Even if that Chevy truck motor is so damn awesome that it would work extremely well in a Cadillac.

Lord Cadillac
03-09-11, 02:00 PM
There is one car that is a glaring rebuttal to the above statement. In 1976 Cadillac introduced the Seville which utilized the chassis of the lower echelon Chevy Nova of that period. But in this case Cadillac went back to the drawing board to design a "true" Cadillac to be built around the Nova's body shell. The car they came up with was a step forward in design and technology and one that employed materials that were higher quality than those use on contemporary full sized Cadillacs. What resulted was a car that was superior to other Cadillac offerings of that year, but was considerably smaller, yet much more elegantly designed and would head the 1976 Cadillac line up in price. The 1976 Cadillac Seville became an instant success on both Coasts and was ubiquitous in the parking lots of establishments popular with the wealthiest Americans. To be honest, the '76-'79 Seville was probably the last Cadillac, or American car of any make, to give the European luxury car makers real competition in the high priced field!

That Seville certainly was nice, huh?
http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-images/cadillac-seville.jpg


Yes, but the key difference is that the Seville was *NOT* a compact car. For that matter, you could use the Continental, which had been a re-bodied Taurus since the mid-80s, but can be considered a sales success. The problem with the Cimarron was that it was not only a light rehash of the Cavalier, but that it was ALSO a COMPACT series car on TOP of that. You can have one of those, but you can NOT have both, and that's why the Cimarron failed.

I think Cadillac can get away with using another platform for a compact car - it just needs to be something really classy.. The design is very important. The Cimarron was such a failure partially because the the J-Bodies were pretty bad to begin with (see quote below) and it looked too similar to a Cavalier - inside and out. It was the same car. If Cadillac can simply use the same platform but differentiate it enough, I think it can work.

As a side note - it can't really be "luxurious" and get "great" gas mileage. I'm intrigued by the new Lexus CT200h. It's a nice looking car in and out. However, it's not a "luxury" car as far as I'm concerned. The leather doesn't feel very nice. The soft-touch interior pieces are very thin (they might as well not be soft touch).. You're just not going to get a very luxurious experience out of a car that needs to be so light and get 40+ miles per gallon. But the car looks very good (especially for a little hatchback) and I BET it'll sell. I think a similar Cadillac can do the same.


Plus, as far as compacts go, the J-bodies were particularly awful.


This topic has been brought up before and it's a good one. If you look at the automotive buying habits from post WW2 to the late 70s/early80s you'll see that in many ways people were buying a "Cadillac" lifestyle, even though the division never really marketed such a thing. I've seen BMW and MB dealers selling respective jackets, t-shirts, cookbooks, club memberships, etc, and "maybe" this is something Cadillac should look into.

First things first. Cars like the CTS-V have to retain their "bite" and horsepower, and strive to maintain roadworthiness. They're a great start but Cadillac needs to maintain this. If they do, and make certain other changes, I think that they'll be able to command higher prices and develop a lifestyle following.

I like the idea of a Cadillac "lifestyle". This type of thing certainly sells a lot of BMW and Mercedes vehicles...


it looks like for the foreseeable future we're gonna get Acura'ed to death with a whole slew of four and six cylinder engines, ONE halo performance car with OHV power and a gussied up Tahoe (the only real "fancy" Chevy, along with the Fleetwood that has existed in recent history). The brand has completely lost any aspiration to build a full size car with a proper V8 to compete on a world stage, and that's a problem. Also, just because the Fleetwood was Cadillac's largest (and arguably best) car in the '90s, even many Cadillac execs did NOT acknowledge that as the brand's flagship. That honor frequently was bestowed upon the Seville due to it's technological content. Same goes for the Escalade, which while the Fleetwood's closest spiritual successor, is not considered a flagship vehicle.

I have NEVER faulted Cadillac for going FWD, nor have I ever faulted them for what they were trying to achieve with the N* engine project... I fault them for doing a typically GM-shitty job at it.

I'm upset with the whole Acurazation of Cadillac lately as well. I don't get why Cadillac, of all the GM brands, needs to be stuck with V6s. It's supposed to be the most expensive and exclusive brand at GM. Let all the other brands sell cars with small engines to make up for the few sold at Cadillac with big engines to meet CAFE regulations.

I'm sure PLENTY of people will still buy Cadillacs with V6 engines if V8s are available. Hell, they do with the CTS. Right? Make a full-size premium Cadillac with a V8, a V6 and a damn 4 cylinder if you have to. But don't take the V8s away from those of us who won't buy another Cadillac without one!

As for the Seville STS being the flagship from 1994-1996 when the Fleetwood was on dealer lots... Imagine the Fleetwood got an update in 1997 with the technology that went into the 1998 Seville? Imagine some refining to the exterior to bring the 1997 Fleetwood Brougham up to date along with interior improvements.. That could have been an amazing flagship.


I do believe that Cadillac's worst enemy has been GM. You would think with the resources that GM has, there wouldn't be a problem, but that's not the case. They just flat out REFUSE to build what needs to be built.

For whatever reason, they're concentrating on Buick over Cadillac right now.. At least they appear to be doing so. Even Chevy is getting more attention. I really hope they have a few surprises for us very soon. I think sales from the CTS and SRX are going to help bring a better future. The ATS will surely do the same - and hopefully the XTS stop-gap does as well.. After ALL of that - hopefully we'll see a new Cadillac that's more on par with the competition than we've seen in recent decades...


This sounds exactly like the "old" GM way of doing things, and it seems like they're doing that with Cadillac right now.

Somebody mentioned that Cadillac is looking at the "Acura" model of building their product/brand.

They say they want to compete with BMW.. It does seem more like they're aiming for Acura.


That's actually a really good idea, but instead make it based on the new LS based architecture. DOCH, 6.0 liter displacement, 500hp would be pretty damn sweet. Maybe make a smaller 4.5-5.0 displacement version if it will net us significantly better fuel economy.

That would be fine for the beginnings of a new flagship. As long as the NVH is handled properly, I really don't see anyone having a problem with the exception of the media.. As long as the car does what it's supposed to - and does it well - it'll get enough attention from customers on the internet to squelch the media enthusiasts.

billc83
03-09-11, 03:17 PM
That's actually a really good idea, but instead make it based on the new LS based architecture. DOCH, 6.0 liter displacement, 500hp would be pretty damn sweet. Maybe make a smaller 4.5-5.0 displacement version if it will net us significantly better fuel economy.

I hope someone influential at GM reads these boards. Wrap it in the Sixteen package and BUILD IT. Call it whatever alphanumberic name you want.

Jesda
03-09-11, 04:48 PM
Acura sales are down while the rest of the industry is up.