: timing 500 cu.



bill henry
03-01-11, 01:30 PM
good morning to all. new to this forum. trying to restore old hot rod found in field in miss. it is a 50 ford 2 door sedan. now to the question, if the #1 cylinder is at top dead center where do the timing mark go. are they at 12 on the crank and 12 on the cam.

drmenard
03-01-11, 02:52 PM
If you are saying that you have a cadillac 500 motor and when the #1 piston on passangers side is at top dead center and your timing mark is off... well if it motor runs and don't sound like it jumped timing, then it is someone mixed up the timing marker... they made 2 or 3 different ones and they were all different and you can't mix them up.. thats why we always say to keep the tap with the pulley.. If thats not your problem ...never mind... Dave

bill henry
03-01-11, 06:31 PM
I do have a caddy 500. motor is not run. Iam trying to get it running. If #1 is at top dead center, " on pass. side" are the timing marks at 12 on crank and 12 on the cam or like chev. 12 on the crank and 6 on the cam.

drmenard
03-01-11, 09:59 PM
yes they are... the marks are the same ....what timing set are you using? There are some that should not be used if you want it to last...what cam have you got in there?

bill henry
03-02-11, 10:23 AM
Dave,the cam is stock or factory. The gear set is a s.a.gear set. Box said made in usa- bedford park, Il. I bought a haynes repair manual-1970 thru 1993. the book said the timing marks go at 12 and 12 but no luck starting the engine. turns over find but do not sound like it is firing. All help would be greatly appreciated.

cadillac_al
03-02-11, 12:38 PM
I have never heard of 12 and 12, seems like a pain in the butt to me. I dug out one of my old Chiltons manuals and see the outside of the pages are getting moldy; what a bummer. My old Chiltons says "align punch marks between shaft centers, see illustration". The illustration is the common cam at 6 o'clock and crank at 12 o'clock alignment. I think that is your problem.

bill henry
03-02-11, 01:09 PM
thanks al, i will try the 6-12 method to see how it works. will let you know if i get the motor running.

drmenard
03-02-11, 03:34 PM
Hi Bill... I would not use any timing set that was not one of the roller chain and sprocket type.. They are about $100... None of the $30-$40 cheap sets will last without problems.. I had a set after 10K be looser than a stock chain with a 150K... If you use a cloyes good set it crank sprocket has 3 keyways... one for -4 degrees and one for zero degrees and one for +4 degrees... If you are running a stock cam it will run a lot better if you use the +4 keyway... summit has them for $73 they are #9-1139... instructions are on the box , you won't be sorry you did..

steelybill
03-03-11, 08:52 PM
With the cam/crank sprockets lined up at the 6/12 setting, the #1 cylinder is not at TDC firing position. You have to turn the crank 1 full turn to get #1 on firing position- TDC. It's not like a Chevy:D

With it at TDC for #1, the distributor can be installed and tweaked into position.

deVille33
03-04-11, 10:17 AM
I don't know if I should jump into this, but here goes.
With the crank shaft sprocket at 12 o'clock - number 1 piston ( 1st cylinder on right hand - passenger side - bank ) should be at TDC. When you install the cam at 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock, it will be either at the top of the compression stroke or the top of the exhaust stroke. This has been illustrated both ways in different manuals and makes assembly confusing to novices. Either way will be okay, as the cam timing to crank timing is 2:1. Two turns of the crank to one turn of the cam. If you want to get out your dial indicators and piston stops you can degree you cam.
When timing your cam to the distributor, you have to bring the # 1 piston to TDC and ensure the cam is at the position where both valves would be closed. This is TDC on compression stroke and your distributor should be located so that it is indexed to the # 1 distributor wire with enough free motion for any adjustment neccessary.
I hope this helps your understanding of crank - cam - distributor timing.

bill henry
03-04-11, 12:05 PM
thanks to all for replys. hope to be in shop sunday to try to get the 500 running. all info will be of great help.

bill henry
03-07-11, 07:03 PM
worked on the 500 todaywithout much luck. put new timing chain and gears on. motor still turns over slow. looking from front of motor to fire wall, pass. side, # 1 valve and # 3 valve did not move when motor was turning over. used a piece of chain bolted to head and screw driver and move valve down, was no stuck. push rod moved up and down. do not know what the problem is.

deVille33
03-08-11, 11:04 AM
It sounds like your lifters aren't getting oil, so they won't work hydralically. The lifters may have worn through the face, where the lifter rides on the cam lobe or the oil isn't getting through the oil galley to the lifter.
Remove the lifters from their bores. Be careful, If the face has mushroomed you won't be able to pull it out the top of the bore. You will have to remove the cam and remove the wear edge off the bottom of the lifter to remove it, so you don't damage the lifter bore.
It could also be that your cam lobes have worn.

bill henry
03-08-11, 02:18 PM
Thanks 33, will check lifters out to see if thats the problem. still can not get motor to turn over at nomal rate. installed new timing chain and gears, reset the distributor, still turns slow.

deVille33
03-09-11, 10:11 AM
Check your grounds on the battery and frame. There is most likely a ground at the starter mount bolts. My 425's have a ground strap at this place, goes form the bolt to the frame. One of my cars had extra ground straps to the engine block. I believe these grounds are neccessary due to all the options on these cars.
It could be that your starter is tired. These engines have a tendency to wear out the bushing in the rear starter housing.

bill henry
03-09-11, 03:32 PM
I will check the grounds . starter is new, someone told me to check to see if starter needed shimes. thanks for the info 33. working on these old cars, so much can be wrong but finding a starting point sure helps eliminate one problem at a time

drmenard
03-10-11, 12:11 AM
You have to find out why the valves are not moving.. This is your problem.. If I had to bet I guess that the cam lobe is worn down... The next thing to do is pull off the intake and see just whats going on in there... If your cam lobes are worn bad this can put metal chips all through the motor.... It could need a rebuild ...

bill henry
03-10-11, 01:05 PM
Thanks dave, hope to be able to work on the 500 this weekend. Ordered the cloyes timing chain. got to pick it up today. ordered it from napa auto parts.

bill henry
06-09-11, 11:31 PM
hey deville 33, never did get my 500 running. bought a 73 eldo one owner with a 500 in it. it runs great. show 80,000 on car. going to pull the motor out and put it in the little ford.

Big Pip
01-25-12, 10:23 PM
Hi Bill... I would not use any timing set that was not one of the roller chain and sprocket type.. They are about $100... None of the $30-$40 cheap sets will last without problems.. I had a set after 10K be looser than a stock chain with a 150K... If you use a cloyes good set it crank sprocket has 3 keyways... one for -4 degrees and one for zero degrees and one for +4 degrees... If you are running a stock cam it will run a lot better if you use the +4 keyway... summit has them for $73 they are #9-1139... instructions are on the box , you won't be sorry you did..

Does that go for the 472 also?

drmenard
01-27-12, 05:32 PM
The 500 and the 472 are the same as those parts go.. The only parts that are different are the crankshaft and pistons...