: steel sleeve/block



stoveguyy
02-20-11, 06:38 PM
anyone know how GM makes the blocks? i saw some nice closeup pics of the block cylinders and i see the steel sleeves are maybe 3/16" thick and the aluminum supporting them is about the same. do they cast blocks and than rough machine the bores and press in the sleeves? i hear about scrappers who say they tear down the blocks for recycling. i wonder how they get steel sleeves out so they can get aluminum prices for the blocks? maybe they beat them to death and somehow pic out the sleeves.

N*Caddy
02-20-11, 08:01 PM
The sleeves are included in the mold before pouring the aluminum.

97EldoCoupe
02-20-11, 09:12 PM
Vasi is correct, cast in place. The bore liners are ribbed. You cannot remove the sleeves unless you bore them out or break them, it's cast grey iron. I spent the better part of two hours once (three years ago) trying to remove the liners for recycling purposes, and gave up. Not worth the energy or effort spent-

97EldoCoupe
02-20-11, 09:16 PM
Oh - Hi Vasi! :)

stoveguyy
02-21-11, 12:38 PM
lots of alum blocks on cars lately. most of the LS motors in chevy trucks. and performance sedans. i assume all the new ford OHC motors are alum block/steel sleeves.

NHRATA01
02-22-11, 12:35 PM
Yeah, the only real way to remove them is to bore them out, that's what was done in the early days of LS1 performance since there weren't any larger displacement (4" bore and up) blocks yet - cnc out the old sleeves, and press fit in new ones by deep freezing the sleeves and baking the block. Dropped sleeves were somewhat common if an inexperienced shop tried it.

Submariner409
02-22-11, 08:56 PM
This applies to absolutely nothing today - but back in the 50's Renault rear engine 4-cylinder engines had drop-in liners. Yep - drain the coolant, pull the head, yank out the liner, hone it, replace the lower and upper gaskets, fit the pistons and bolt it all back together: the head held the liners in place ! Volkswagens - you merely removed the worn air-cooled cylinders, threw them away and bolted on new jugs. Piece of cake.

N*Caddy
02-22-11, 09:29 PM
I have seen the Renault engines you are talking about Sub, these engines were used all the way up to the early '90s.
They came in various sizes from 1.1l to 2l but the most common were 1.3l.
Very simple engines, you can do a complete engine rebuild in less than 1 day. Cast iron block (later some aluminum) and aluminum head. The sleeve and the piston rings were a MUST change every time the head was out because they were not lasting more than 60K (pushed). Very common to see a "smoker" Renault on the street, change the sleeves and the rings and you are good to go. They were pushing up to 60Hp, but most (1.3l) had 53Hp :). Point ignition, still remember the ignition order 1-3-2-4, Webber single barrel carburetor, mechanical fuel pump.... Best way to check the compression was remove the hose from the top of the valve cover (where in a N* would be the PCV) and check how much it blows, that was gases escaping from compression around the rings).
I think I can fix just about ANYTHING on one for those engines with my eyes closed. Memories, memories...

Ranger
02-22-11, 09:30 PM
The 4.1's where the same, probably the 4.5's and 4.9's as well.

Racer704
02-23-11, 12:30 AM
In 1999 I ordered one of the 1st 5" bore spacing billet blocks made from 6061 T-6 and to us gearheads...meaning you SUB and me this is automotive PORN...I have always said that I would clean it up and put a glass coffee top on it in my living room when i stop using it...trully a work of art and only weighs 135 with the steel liners that are pressed in then hot plate honed for final bore of 4.750 ....with the 5.3 stroke makes it right @750 or so cubic inches...

My next billet block will have ceramic liners that are nickie coated...there are several companys making these blocks but it will come from this company..they make all my custom cams and alot more..the older billet block will be going to them for some work also...http://www.lsmeng.com/Billet-Blocks.html

I know some of you will enjoy the link and the pictures dont do the block justice....

Submariner409
02-23-11, 09:58 AM
I have always said that I would clean it up and put a glass coffee top on it in my living room when i stop using it...trully a work of art

Man, does THAT ever bring back memories !!! In the mid-70's 3 of us off the same sub snake-ranched my house in Charleston, SC. In front of the living room couch was a coffee table: 3/4" Plexiglas top (courtesy of Charleston Shipyard) mounted to an upended Chevy 327 block. The end tables were made from wood Cutty Sark scotch cases.

Pete1996
02-23-11, 12:12 PM
This applies to absolutely nothing today - but back in the 50's Renault rear engine 4-cylinder engines had drop-in liners. Yep - drain the coolant, pull the head, yank out the liner, hone it, replace the lower and upper gaskets, fit the pistons and bolt it all back together: the head held the liners in place ! Volkswagens - you merely removed the worn air-cooled cylinders, threw them away and bolted on new jugs. Piece of cake.

Alfa Romeo inline motors were the same way since the mid 1950s or so, head studs look larger than the Northstar:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/gigem75/engine7of9-7.jpg

stoveguyy
02-23-11, 12:19 PM
have not seen pics of the alum LS blocks in the camaro's to compare the sleeve construction. i know the 5.3 motor is stuffed in some FWD cars. hmm, pushrod valves compared to OHC northstar. would a 5.3 caddy ever have sold? not getting into a discussion on which motor is more reliable or powerful? both dressed motors are fairly bulky as far as width.

Pete1996
02-23-11, 12:28 PM
Sure would be nice if there was a widely available engine that would more or less drop in as a reliable replacement, even a high output V6.

dkozloski
02-23-11, 12:33 PM
The two-stroke GMC diesels of the 53, 71, and 110 series all had wet sleeves that simply dropped in. You could easily tell when it was overhaul time because anti-freeze showed up in the oil when the sleeve o-rings started to leak. In fact, leaky sleeve seals plagued every wet sleeve engine I ever heard of, sooner or later.

NHRATA01
02-24-11, 03:51 PM
have not seen pics of the alum LS blocks in the camaro's to compare the sleeve construction. i know the 5.3 motor is stuffed in some FWD cars. hmm, pushrod valves compared to OHC northstar. would a 5.3 caddy ever have sold? not getting into a discussion on which motor is more reliable or powerful? both dressed motors are fairly bulky as far as width.

LSx is way, way more narrow than a Northstar just looking at them visually. DOHC heads take up a lot of space. There's a famous picture of a Ford 4.6 4V vs. a 302, the size difference is staggering.

I'm sure a Northstar forum won't appreciate my stating it, but my opinion of owning both is the LSx's are a much, much better motor (which is understandable being the LSx development started about 6 years after the Northstar's and the engineer's could learn from mistakes). I will give the Northstar one advantage, ever so slightly, in the NVH area compared to the LSx. The LSx in it's more relaxed variants can sound somewhat docile, but it still has that small block hot-rod brutality in it's exhaust note when being spun high. The smoother Northstar makes noises much more befitting of a luxury vehicle.

stoveguyy
02-25-11, 11:42 AM
as for exhaust, all the FWD cars feed both banks into 1 pipe for cat/resonator. the camaro/mustangs like to feed both pipes into x-pipe for sound characteristics. but they have dual cats, resonators, and muffs so they will always sound different than a FWD setup. a FWD bonne/prix will never sound like a camaro even though both cars has a LS motor.

NHRATA01
02-25-11, 01:16 PM
as for exhaust, all the FWD cars feed both banks into 1 pipe for cat/resonator. the camaro/mustangs like to feed both pipes into x-pipe for sound characteristics. but they have dual cats, resonators, and muffs so they will always sound different than a FWD setup. a FWD bonne/prix will never sound like a camaro even though both cars has a LS motor.

The 4th Gen LS1 Fbodies used a y-pipe, not an x-pipe on the exhaust because of the space available. Though I'm pretty sure they went to an X on the new Camaro. The RWD STS's have the similar N* tone in my opinion. Like I said, it's not a negative. The Northstar just has a more pleasant sound to it for a luxury cruiser, I'm sure the combustion chamber design and firing order have something to do with it.