: So now Hyundai has 2 DOHC V8s. They don't seem to worried about CAFE...



Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 03:23 PM
http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/hyundai-genesis-forum.php?pageid=2012-sedan

The new V6 is sounding very impressive as well.. A nice bump in power due to direct injection... Is there ANY domestic brand with a DOHC V8 anymore?

drewsdeville
02-09-11, 03:27 PM
Ford's impressive 5.0 is a DOHC V8.

Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 03:28 PM
I should have stated for luxury vehicles....

Anyway.. 25 MPG highway with a 429 horsepower 5.0L V8 is pretty impressive considering this isn't a sports car like the Corvette. It's a fairly heavy luxury car... I think the eight speed transmissions are making a big difference...

77CDV
02-09-11, 03:38 PM
These engines represent only a small portion of Hyundai's overall production, so they can get away with it. GM could get away with the same thing if all Chevys and most Buicks were fours. They massively out-produce Cadillac, so GM could get away with overall fleet compliance with CAFE. The Cads themselves would still be subject to a GG tax, but people in this price range demanding these high performace, large displacement engines don't seem fazed by the extra couple thousand at purchase.

hueterm
02-09-11, 03:40 PM
The Genesis V8 is rapidly encroaching on a CPO 09 STS-V or DTS Performance Platinum as the next purchase...

And if I were comparing it to new vehicles, it would win hands down. Admittedly, I haven't driven one, but have looked at them up close, and do like...

Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 03:47 PM
These engines represent only a small portion of Hyundai's overall production, so they can get away with it. GM could get away with the same thing if all Chevys and most Buicks were fours. They massively out-produce Cadillac, so GM could get away with overall fleet compliance with CAFE. The Cads themselves would still be subject to a GG tax, but people in this price range demanding these high performace, large displacement engines don't seem fazed by the extra couple thousand at purchase.

This is the problem with having multiple brands - especially GMC. GM sells a lot of Corvettes, Camaros and full-size SUVs - so I can see how CAFE could be a problem. GM can either weaken up the engine offerings in their other brands and power-up Cadillac, or leave the power in the other brands and allow Cadillac to sputter off into oblivion with V6s.. Either option is a tough decision.

The Corvette must have a V8. But maybe a twin turbo V6 should be an option. Same goes for the Camaro.. Does there really need to be an Impala SS or a Caprice SS (may be coming soon)? A G8 GT? (I know, it's gone).


The Genesis V8 is rapidly encroaching on a CPO 09 STS-V or DTS Performance Platinum as the next purchase...

And if I were comparing it to new vehicles, it would win hands down. Admittedly, I haven't driven one, but have looked at them up close, and do like...

The Genesis is quite an impressive car... This new 5.0 will likely be faster than an STS-V.

hueterm
02-09-11, 04:06 PM
This is the problem with having multiple brands - especially GMC. GM sells a lot of Corvettes, Camaros and full-size SUVs - so I can see how CAFE could be a problem. GM can either weaken up the engine offerings in their other brands and power-up Cadillac, or leave the power in the other brands and allow Cadillac to sputter off into oblivion with V6s.. Either option is a tough decision.

The Corvette must have a V8. But maybe a twin turbo V6 should be an option. Same goes for the Camaro.. Does there really need to be an Impala SS or a Caprice SS (may be coming soon)? A G8 GT? (I know, it's gone).



The Genesis is quite an impressive car... This new 5.0 will likely be faster than an STS-V.


If consumers want a TT V6 for the Corvette or Camaro, then by all means make them. I'm sure they'd sell in either. As long as they're fast, a lot of people aren't going to care. And if they can gut Cadillac, then gut the Corvette too.

On the same note, if people would buy a Holden Impala SS or Caprice w/the V8 then make it, the TT V6 and a regular V6. I'm sure some would even go for a hybrid.

Better yet, say FCUK CAFE, build what the consumer wants (hybrids/plugins, efficient high mileage gas, high performance), and if they get fined, amortize it over the total vehicles sold, and weigh it heavier on the lower mileage vehicles (which would typically be more expensive and less price sensitive anyway). If people knew that they had to pay $XXX extra to get the engine or car they want -- over and above the cost of the car -- maybe we'd get some push back on these stupid regs. Funny how GM is trying to make Cadillac into MB or BMW, but they don't want to follow them in this instance. However, considering who their overlord is, who can be surprised?

I'm getting sick of this never ending nanny state. And before Gary gets all Obama pragmatic on me ;-), I blame Bush just as much as Obama, as he signed the damn thing into law.

Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 04:12 PM
Right.. So if we want a fast Impala SS or Caprice SS, continue offering the V8 but also offer a twin turbo v6 for people who will take it.. Maybe even drop 2-3 thousand off the price to make it a better deal. The less V8s selling under your entry-level brand, the better..


If consumers want a TT V6 for the Corvette or Camaro, then by all means make them. I'm sure they'd sell in either. As long as they're fast, a lot of people aren't going to care. And if they can gut Cadillac, then gut the Corvette too.

On the same note, if people would buy a Holden Impala SS or Caprice w/the V8 then make it, the TT V6 and a regular V6. I'm sure some would even go for a hybrid.

Stingroo
02-09-11, 05:18 PM
Okay. Hold it.


First - Gen V small block is coming and will have DI. This will improve the Corvette and Camaro in the fuel efficiency department.
Second - if you put a V6 into the Corvette, even a TT V6 a LOT of people will be pissed. GM won't do this. It's been in the rumor mill for 30 years. Move on.
Third - If we even get a civilian Caprice (there were talks of it being Police only... has this changed?) Yes, offer the base with a V6 (3.6?) and maybe the eAssist tech, and give the SS a de-tuned version of whatever the new Vette's base engine will be.


As for Cadillac - If GM wants to put more power there, they need to do what Ford has done and start offering better V6's in their trucks. The 3.0 TT rumored would be a great choice for the Sierra and Silverado in place of the 5.3 V8 that's there now. That would cut a lot off of it right there. The rest of the savings, I don't know where they'd come from, but you can bet the Corvette and Camaro programs aren't going to suffer for Cadillac's sake. Ever.

Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 05:22 PM
If a V6 is good enough for a Cadillac, it's eventually going to have to be good enough for a Corvette.. At least as an option. Like many people don't like the sounds of a V6 in a Corvette, many feel the same way about a Cadillac.. Especially a full-sized Cadillac. There are plenty of people who won't care what engine is powering their Corvette as long as it's fast. Hell, I have little doubt some people would still buy a Corvette if it were front wheel drive - just for it's appearance...

Stingroo
02-09-11, 05:27 PM
There's a difference between a new car getting a powerful V6 and a car that hasn't had one for over 50 years getting a V6.

Lord Cadillac
02-09-11, 05:32 PM
When is the last time a full-sized Cadillac had a V6 without an option for a V8? On that note, I'm getting ready for the evening.. See you all later or tomorrow...


There's a difference between a new car getting a powerful V6 and a car that hasn't had one for over 50 years getting a V6.

thebigjimsho
02-09-11, 06:16 PM
A V6 powered car with the option of a V8 is FAR different than an iconic exclusively V8 car.

Stingroo
02-09-11, 06:19 PM
a v6 powered car with the option of a v8 is far different than an iconic exclusively v8 car.

qft.

Aron9000
02-09-11, 06:46 PM
If we are worried about meeting CAFE numbers, GM and every other auto maker needs to bring over all the turbodiesel engines they sell in Europe. They also really need to pressure congress/government to build more refineries so diesel prices come down to the level of gas prices. Cause right now diesel is the most cost effective answer to better MPG's if we can get the general public on board with it.

With diesel prices being screwed up and $0.40 more a gallon than gas, the general public is never going to buy diesel, even if their new Honda Civic diesel would get 50mpg, it just isn't going to sell IMO.

Playdrv4me
02-09-11, 07:12 PM
I'm gonna go with Sal on this... Do not rule out the possibility of seeing a TT V6 in the Corvette. I picked up this month's copy of Motor Trend today, and to my horror the BMW which has built exclusively RWD vehicles for probably the last 3 decades, WILL be implementing a Mini based FWD derivative to slot below the 1 Series. Ford has converted once coveted truck plants into "One Ford" Focus mills to produce the new Focus, Focus Electric, and CX minivan. The automotive trend is going to engines as small as possible or worse yet, vehicles as small as possible. So not only could the Corvette get a V6, not only would it probably sell, but it would probably even become a performance branch of its OWN developing alongside the V8 Z06s and ZR1s. Stranger things have happened, and *are* happening.

As for Hyundai, I commend them for putting so much engineering prowess into their V8s and V6s, but they keep getting things out of order. If I were trying to garner as much forward movement for the Equus as possible, I certainly wouldn't be giving the lower segment car the better engine first.

Playdrv4me
02-09-11, 07:14 PM
If we are worried about meeting CAFE numbers, GM and every other auto maker needs to bring over all the turbodiesel engines they sell in Europe. They also really need to pressure congress/government to build more refineries so diesel prices come down to the level of gas prices. Cause right now diesel is the most cost effective answer to better MPG's if we can get the general public on board with it.

With diesel prices being screwed up and $0.40 more a gallon than gas, the general public is never going to buy diesel, even if their new Honda Civic diesel would get 50mpg, it just isn't going to sell IMO.

Diesel technology, if embraced, could provide not only economy, but some pretty damn impressive performance when properly tuned. This is definitely the way to go if Americans will get over their reticence toward them.

Stingroo
02-09-11, 07:31 PM
I'd lose all faith in GM the day a Corvette is sold with a V6. I know I'm not alone.

hueterm
02-09-11, 07:52 PM
I lost it a long time ago, and the Corvette has nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't want a Corvette w/a V6 (probably period, actually) and the V8 should always be the top engine -- but there are a lot of people who couldn't care less. Do you think when some guy who looks like he stepped out of a Viagra ad is buying one for his 20 year old bimbo mistress -- do you really think she cares if it's a V8? As long as it's fast?

And if he saves a few grand, he can buy a piece of guilt jewelry for his wife...

Jesda
02-09-11, 09:14 PM
V6 Corvette.

The American dream car ... nightmare?

Stingroo
02-09-11, 09:39 PM
Blasphemy honestly. It would ruin my dream that I've had for as long as I could remember. I'm not okay with that, and government mandated fuel economy bullshit can suck my balls if it ever gets to that point.

ben.gators
02-09-11, 10:29 PM
Lord Cadillac:


429 horsepower and 16 mpg city and 25 mpg highway gas millage is impressive. And by the way, I guess you have sent threads about Hyundai more than anyone else in the forum... some examples: :D

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/215115-429-horsepower-5-0-liter-v8.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/218288-i-like.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/216021-i-think-hyundai-equus-too-expensive.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/221706-what-if.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/213053-why-hyundai-equus-my-shopping-list.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/211056-report-hyundai-sonata-overtakes-nissan-altima.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/221701-so-now-hyundai-has-2-dohc.html
.....

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-09-11, 10:42 PM
Blasphemy honestly. It would ruin my dream that I've had for as long as I could remember. I'm not okay with that, and government mandated fuel economy bullshit can suck my balls if it ever gets to that point.

Dude, chill out. They'll still offer a V8 Corvette if it gets to that point, and it's not like they're gonna go and destroy every V8 Corvette ever made, or make them impossible to buy. You'll still be able to buy your Vette no problem.

Regarding the CAFE regulations and what sort of technology the manufacturers are having to use to satisfy the regulations: I think a lot of the technologies are really forward thinking and will be interesting to test drive and watch how they turn out in their build run. I'd really like to drive an Ecoboost powered F-150. It makes more horsepower and torque than the 5.0L V8, and almost as much torque as the 6.2, but the torque curve is much flatter, it can tow 10,000 lbs and it gets 24-25 mpg on the highway! I'm curious to see how these little (3.5L) turbocharged V6s will hold up to true truck usage as the years pass.

ga_etc
02-09-11, 11:46 PM
I like the thought of a TT 3.6DI in the CTS and ATS, but the full size and flagship cars really need a V8.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-09-11, 11:55 PM
Oh, yeah. I don't think that the big V8's that we all love so much should be phased out, but rather run along side of these high tech, forced induction smaller engines.

Lord Cadillac
02-10-11, 01:27 AM
Lord Cadillac:


429 horsepower and 16 mpg city and 25 mpg highway gas millage is impressive. And by the way, I guess you have sent threads about Hyundai more than anyone else in the forum... some examples: :D

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/215115-429-horsepower-5-0-liter-v8.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/218288-i-like.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/216021-i-think-hyundai-equus-too-expensive.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/221706-what-if.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/213053-why-hyundai-equus-my-shopping-list.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/211056-report-hyundai-sonata-overtakes-nissan-altima.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/221701-so-now-hyundai-has-2-dohc.html
.....

And why, you might ask? Because I, apparently more so than anyone else in this community, is shocked at how a once laughable joke of a car company from South Korea is now building better luxury cars than my favorite American brand. It's F'ing SHAMEFUL. And I will continue to post about it until somebody at GM realizes they're being reemed up the ass by the same company who made a car just a touch better than a Yugo in the 80s.


I'm gonna go with Sal on this... Do not rule out the possibility of seeing a TT V6 in the Corvette. I picked up this month's copy of Motor Trend today, and to my horror the BMW which has built exclusively RWD vehicles for probably the last 3 decades, WILL be implementing a Mini based FWD derivative to slot below the 1 Series. Ford has converted once coveted truck plants into "One Ford" Focus mills to produce the new Focus, Focus Electric, and CX minivan. The automotive trend is going to engines as small as possible or worse yet, vehicles as small as possible. So not only could the Corvette get a V6, not only would it probably sell, but it would probably even become a performance branch of its OWN developing alongside the V8 Z06s and ZR1s. Stranger things have happened, and *are* happening.

As for Hyundai, I commend them for putting so much engineering prowess into their V8s and V6s, but they keep getting things out of order. If I were trying to garner as much forward movement for the Equus as possible, I certainly wouldn't be giving the lower segment car the better engine first.

I have very little doubt we'll see a V6 Corvette in the not-too-distant future. As far as I'm hearing from my sources, expect a Hybrid as well. While there are many enthusiasts who'd never buy a V6 Corvette, there are many people who would never buy a V8 Corvette either. Enthusiasts make up an EXTREMELY small portion of the market. If the Corvette lineup consisted of a V8, a TT V6 and a Hybrid - the people who HATED anything but a V8 would NOT stop buying the V8 version. They'd simply buy the V8. Rocket science, huh?! Then comes the good news. The people who DON'T like the V8 would buy the TT V6 or the Hybrid. Luckily GM has a few people within the organization who can think outside the little cardboard box...

Aron9000
02-10-11, 01:36 AM
And why, you might ask? Because I, apparently more so than anyone else in this community, is shocked at how a once laughable joke of a car company from South Korea is now building better luxury cars than my favorite American brand. It's F'ing SHAMEFUL. And I will continue to post about it until somebody at GM realizes they're being reemed up the ass by the same company who made a car just a touch better than a Yugo in the 80s.



I have very little doubt we'll see a V6 Corvette in the not-too-distant future. As far as I'm hearing from my sources, expect a Hybrid as well. While there are many enthusiasts who'd never buy a V6 Corvette, there are many people who would never buy a V8 Corvette either. Enthusiasts make up an EXTREMELY small portion of the market. If the Corvette lineup consisted of a V8, a TT V6 and a Hybrid - the people who HATED anything but a V8 would NOT stop buying the V8 version. They'd simply buy the V8. Rocket science, huh?! Then comes the good news. The people who DON'T like the V8 would buy the TT V6 or the Hybrid. Luckily GM has a few people within the organization who can think outside the little cardboard box...


I agree that is really shameful that Hyundia is willing to build large luxury cars and Cadillac has abandoned that market segment.

As for the Corvette, its a niche product with probably the single biggest group of loyal fans. Personally I think its a slap in the face to this group to offer anything but a v8. Not to mention its a huge waste of development $$$$ to build a hybrid, a v6, and a v8 version, all that money could be spend on R&D for better steering feel, better seats, better interior, all things that are severely lacking in the current model. I'd also be all for them making the next car 3" narrower and cutting about 2-4" of length out of it, anything to make it feel smaller behind the wheel.

Lord Cadillac
02-10-11, 01:43 AM
I don't understand the "slap in the face" part. But then I can be very unemotional at times.. As far as I'm concerned, if Cadillac came out with a car named Penis and gave it a one cylinder engine, it wouldn't make me feel any different about owning a Platinum Escalade or a full-size premium luxury sedan with a V8 and every amenity I could ask for. In other words, as long as they made the car I liked, I wouldn't care what they sold otherwise..

Then again, maybe a V6 cheapens the Corvette "name". Sort of like the way people feel about the Infiniti G25 and the G37... The thing is, the G25 is obviously much weaker than the G37. If a twin turbo V6 could have similar performance to a V8 - I think there'd be much less of this negative stigma... The Lexus GS 450h (hybrid) is faster than the GS460 V8.. The Hybrid Corvette I've been hearing tidbits about (simply under consideration at this point) would slot in between with base level Corvette and Z06 in performance.. Why would anyone have an issue with a Hybrid Corvette that's faster than the base model?

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 01:56 AM
I have very little doubt we'll see a V6 Corvette in the not-too-distant future. As far as I'm hearing from my sources, expect a Hybrid as well. While there are many enthusiasts who'd never buy a V6 Corvette, there are many people who would never buy a V8 Corvette either. Enthusiasts make up an EXTREMELY small portion of the market. If the Corvette lineup consisted of a V8, a TT V6 and a Hybrid - the people who HATED anything but a V8 would NOT stop buying the V8 version. They'd simply buy the V8. Rocket science, huh?! Then comes the good news. The people who DON'T like the V8 would buy the TT V6 or the Hybrid. Luckily GM has a few people within the organization who can think outside the little cardboard box...

It's interesting that you brought up the Hybrid aspect. The amusing part about this is that of all things PORSCHE recently introduced a Hybrid version of the 911, so if anything this would put the Corvette on an even keel with one of its perennial competitors. Again, weird to think about, but whatever sells cars and pumps up those stupid CAFE numbers is fine with me if it means we can have more V8s elsewhere.

Amphibian
02-10-11, 11:25 AM
I for one am very impressed with what Hyundai has with in the Genesis and Equus. The new Genesis R-Spec makes 429 horsepower and gets 25 mpg highway. The Chrysler SRT8s only managed 19 mpg with their 6.1L 425 horse V-8s. I can complain about the fact that I wish it looked a bit spicier, but you can't argue with its spec sheet or driving quality.

GM needs to start benchmarking this platform NOW.

thebigjimsho
02-10-11, 02:11 PM
All this Vette talk brings us back to CAFE. There is a SMALL, loyal fanbase. The Vette won't go V6 or hybrid because they don't need to. The numbers are inconsequential to spend the type of money to develop anything other than an LS based engine.

As for a TT V6, it wouldn't get any appreciable gains in mpg. So why? The Vette already is geared in the V8 to get 20 city and upper 20s highway as it is. And if you stay off the throttle, mpg is already impressive. Ever driven a turbo motor? You want that mpg? Stay out of the throttle. Just like the LS motor. My 3850lb '04 V got 25-27 regularly on long highway jaunts. Drop the SHO motor in that vehicle and you'd be hard pressed to do much better. And it has less power.

Bottom line, in a low volume performance iconic sports car, you won't see mpg gains if you're on the throttle as much as the average enthusiast driver.

Case in point, Top Gear's test of the Prius against the M3 on the track. At the Prius' best times, it was getting 17mpg to the M3's 19mpg following it.

thebigjimsho
02-10-11, 02:16 PM
It's interesting that you brought up the Hybrid aspect. The amusing part about this is that of all things PORSCHE recently introduced a Hybrid version of the 911, so if anything this would put the Corvette on an even keel with one of its perennial competitors. Again, weird to think about, but whatever sells cars and pumps up those stupid CAFE numbers is fine with me if it means we can have more V8s elsewhere.
Not the same. Where is the Porsche equivalent of the Cruize, Malibu or Aveo? Cadillac currently has no truly legitimate modern large sedan because of funds. Why develop a hybrid for the Vette when the need isn't there?

EChas3
02-11-11, 10:14 PM
If consumers want a TT V6 for the Corvette or Camaro, then by all means make them...

Better yet, say FCUK CAFE, build what the consumer wants (hybrids/plugins, efficient high mileage gas, high performance), and if they get fined, amortize it over the total vehicles sold, and weigh it heavier on the lower mileage vehicles (which would typically be more expensive and less price sensitive anyway). If people knew that they had to pay $XXX extra to get the engine or car they want -- over and above the cost of the car -- maybe we'd get some push back on these stupid regs.

I'm getting sick of this never ending nanny state... I blame Bush just as much as Obama, as he signed the damn thing into law.

I agree. This is not the business of government. It is about freedom, liberty and personal property rights.

Playdrv4me
02-11-11, 11:14 PM
So how does CAFE ultimately work? Is some kind of yearly fine the maximum consequence that is levied toward an automaker out of compliance, or can CAFE gradually impose other restrictions, higher continuous fines, or other regulations on an automaker that continues to not conform?

Jesda
02-11-11, 11:39 PM
Wikipedia:

Currently CAFE penalty is $55 USD per vehicle for every 1 mpg under the standard. For the year 2006 Mercedes-Benz draw $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards. [80] That equates to $122 per one sold vehicle (in 2006 Mercedes-Benz sales were 248,080 vehicles) [81] A penalty of $122 means violating CAFE by 2.22 MPG ($122 divided by $55). According to the government "fueleconomy.gov" website violating CAFE by 2.42 MPG means consuming extra 27 barrels (1134 gallons) of mostly imported fuel in 10 years which is worth $3,490 (Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15000 annual miles and a fuel price of $ 2.95 per gallon) that is 13.4% more and also it means emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 in 10 years that is 12.7% more. These numbers are based on comparison of 2010 Mercedes ML 350 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 21.64 MPG (this model meets 2006 CAFE requirements of 21.6 MPG) and 2010 Mercedes ML 550 4MATIC with CAFE Unadjusted Average Fuel Economy of 19.22 MPG. [82] So consuming extra $3,490 worth of mostly imported fuel and emitting extra 14 Tons of CO2 draws a penalty of only $122 for a single luxury car buyer. $122 is only 0.3% of the price of $40,000 car (average 2010 price of a luxury car). Several experts stated that this is not enough of a monetary incentive to comply with CAFE. [79]

CAFE penalty have increased only 10% since 1983. [79] At the same time inflation rate from 1983 to 2010 was 119.2%. It means that CAFE penalty in 2010 is actually 2 times less than what it was in 1983. NHTSA officials stated that, in addition to the authority the Federal Civil Penalties Inflation Adjustment Act of 1990 under EPCA, NHTSA has the authority to raise CAFE penalties to $100 per 1 mpg shortfall. [79] NHTSA chooses not to exercise this authority.

Playdrv4me
02-12-11, 12:30 AM
" Several experts stated that this is not enough of a monetary incentive to comply with CAFE."

I would have to agree then that it would seem to make sense to just pay the fines and spread them out over the least efficient vehicles. However this seems a little too easy and I'm sure they're going to come up with ways to further penalize non compliance.

Lord Cadillac
02-16-11, 01:58 PM
So Mercedes could have added $122.00 to the cost of every vehicle and paid nothing at all. Wow. If they had done that, though, who would have purchased a new Mercedes? Not me, for sure. There's no way I'm paying that extra $122.00 when I'm already paying $100,000.00 for the vehicle.

hueterm
02-16-11, 05:49 PM
You're paying it regardless, whether or not it's itemized on the invoice...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-16-11, 08:33 PM
$122 extra on a $100,000 bill is nothing. It's like if they raised the price of a big mac by a nickel.

Lord Cadillac
02-16-11, 09:42 PM
Exactly.


$122 extra on a $100,000 bill is nothing. It's like if they raised the price of a big mac by a nickel.

DouglasJRizzo
02-17-11, 08:45 AM
These engines represent only a small portion of Hyundai's overall production, so they can get away with it. GM could get away with the same thing if all Chevys and most Buicks were fours. They massively out-produce Cadillac, so GM could get away with overall fleet compliance with CAFE. The Cads themselves would still be subject to a GG tax, but people in this price range demanding these high performace, large displacement engines don't seem fazed by the extra couple thousand at purchase.

You are most correct. Most of the mid to upper MB and BMW lines have GG taxes. No one seems to care.

Stingroo
02-17-11, 08:47 AM
Not all of them would get taxed though. Fun fact: The 505 horsepower Corvette Z06 doesn't have a gas guzzler tax due to its use of Displacement on Demand (I don't care. Active Fuel Management is a much less cool name).

ejguillot
02-17-11, 12:28 PM
Not all of them would get taxed though. Fun fact: The 505 horsepower Corvette Z06 doesn't have a gas guzzler tax due to its use of Displacement on Demand (I don't care. Active Fuel Management is a much less cool name).

I don't believe that LS7's have AFM in them. The Z06 avoided the gas guzzler tax with 3 things: Light weight, aerodynamic body, and a really tall 6th gear for the highway fuel mileage test.

Stingroo
02-17-11, 12:36 PM
You're right, my mistake. If I remember right it was originally planned for it but then got scrapped or something.

Also CAGS helps its fuel economy in testing too (but most owners disable it anyway. lol)

Playdrv4me
02-17-11, 09:47 PM
For what they are, Corvettes get great fuel economy as it is.