: 2012 Camaro ZL1



JimmyH
02-09-11, 12:46 PM
It appears they nixed the Z28 moniker. I am also happy they finally nixed the ricer mail slot in the front fascia. It was non-functional, and I HATE non-functional slots/scoops/etc.

2012 CAMARO ZL1
6.2L Supercharged V8 LSA 556bhp
6 Speed Manual Transmission
Heavy Duty Driveline
Magnetic Ride Control
Brembo Brakes
Electric Power Steering
Track Ready Cooling Systems
Aggressive bodywork, including vented hood, Transformers 3 style bumper, special wheels
New steering wheel and interior trim with nice silver accents throughout

I stole these pics from Camaro5 (sorry Tran)

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72400d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2418.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72401d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2430.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72402d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2445.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72403d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2460.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72404d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2461.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72405d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2466.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72406d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2483.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72407d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2494.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72408d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2509.jpg

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/72409d1297269959-2012-camaro-zl1-img_2517.jpg

Stingroo
02-09-11, 01:37 PM
Now THIS is far more exciting and interesting than some tiny Fiat. :thumbsup: Want. Want bad.

JimmyH
02-09-11, 02:21 PM
The Germans and Asians don't have anything that can touch this car in this price point. I said it before, I will say it again; GM is turning it around. The CTS has been accepted as the best lux sedan on the market. The Equinox is considered the benchmark for suvs. The Cruze looks like it's going to become the premier small car. And the Camaro can outperform an M6--for (likely) half the price.

drewsdeville
02-09-11, 02:32 PM
Nice. I still can't get along with the dashboard's appearance on those Camaros...I much prefer the Mustang's and even the cheaper looking Challenger's.

Still, as a whole, awesome.

OldRoadDawg
02-09-11, 03:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eD0_dlXYM

wfo
02-09-11, 04:05 PM
I realize you can't please everyone.

IMHO, the styling of this car does not hit the mark as good as it could, way too plain Jane and not nearly aggressive looking enough. When GM waits as long as they did to bring this big gun out...do something really over the top with it. This is the flagship Camaro. The mutha of all muthas. The V Sedan, V Coupe and the ZR1 all have incredible styling ques IMO.

How about going with the hidden door handles like V Coupe and all Vettes, more aggressive/drool producing tire and wheel package, say 20" Monoblock BBS mesh style or a 10 spoke w/deep dish wrapped in 275 front and 325 rear like a Z06, cross drilled and slotted brake rotors, lowered, body color ground affects or lowers. They left the door wide open for the after market with this car.

At least you have the power plant...The rest being left for Chip Foose and the boys or your own imagination. I'm just saying.

OffThaHorseCEO
02-09-11, 04:33 PM
outside... :drool:

inside.... :vomit:

JimmyH
02-09-11, 05:55 PM
Actually, the reason I bought a Camaro is because of the simple, clean styling. I think most guys who buy over-the-top performance cars don't really want over-the-top styling. You are conspicuous enough as it is in a fast car. I think the V2 is way too flashy, almost to the point of blingy.
As for the interior, I thought it was kind of bland in the beginning too. But it grows on you. I stare at it over two hours a day on my commute, and you come to appreciate the simplicity of it. The fit and finish is decent, and as for the cheapness of materials, I got over that long ago. Save the steering wheel and shifter, you hardly touch any of the interior anyway. I have no problem with the cheaped out interior considering how affordable this car is.

concorso
02-09-11, 06:25 PM
The Germans and Asians don't have anything that can touch this car in this price point. I said it before, I will say it again; GM is turning it around. The CTS has been accepted as the best lux sedan on the market. The Equinox is considered the benchmark for suvs. The Cruze looks like it's going to become the premier small car. And the Camaro can outperform an M6--for (likely) half the price.CTS is the best lux sedan on the market? It must still be warm enough to grow the funky green where you are, eh? Its arguable that the CTS is the best in its class. It doesnt hold a flame to any of the real luxury sedans. Seriously whut!?

JimmyH
02-09-11, 06:47 PM
Most of the periodicals picked it as the best sedan (newspapers, tech journals etc; not the car rags, who pick their best in class based on who spends the most on advertising *cough* *cough* bmw *cough* *cough*)

thebigjimsho
02-09-11, 07:18 PM
Ricer mail slot? I like being able to see that and differentiate the V6 and V8 models. Or are you now glad people will think you drive a V8 Camaro?

V-Eight
02-09-11, 08:00 PM
The interior looks so much better with that updated trim. Can't wait to see some performance numbers.

Stingroo
02-09-11, 08:33 PM
Also, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say I totally called it that this thing would be ZL1 not Z28. Like the day the rumors surfaced I knew that was what it was going to be. I feel good. lol

V-Eight
02-09-11, 09:08 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnJd9zdne35onntX0481kgoMC1mu4SU KaUCRQtpKZyTbhYOVw8

I think they should replace the bowtie with a ZL1 badge though.

Playdrv4me
02-09-11, 09:42 PM
The suede on the dash is a major improvement to an otherwise claustrophobic and cheap feeling center stack (which I see still hasn't been improved to allow Nav/Infotainment systems), although the cut around the vents looks a little crude. The steering wheel everyone complained about appears to have been fixed, although it doesn't look as cool now.

Still, nice to see there's a (much) cheaper alternative to the V now if all you want is the sheer performance-factor.

CadillacPimpinNOLA
02-09-11, 10:15 PM
i like mannie fresh (new orleans rapper and produce) his zr1 clone, also had a z28 he built when they first came out...this is his new 2010

http://www.gforce-tx.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fast_gallery_big/gallery/Camaro%202010/Mannie%20Fresh%27s%202010/DSC00415.JPG

http://www.gforce-tx.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fast_gallery_big/gallery/Camaro%202010/Mannie%20Fresh%27s%202010/DSC00404.JPG

http://www.gforce-tx.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fast_gallery_big/gallery/Camaro%202010/Mannie%20Fresh%27s%202010/DSC00398.JPG

http://www.gforce-tx.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fast_gallery_big/gallery/Camaro%202010/Mannie%20Fresh%27s%202010/DSC00409.JPG

http://www.gforce-tx.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fast_gallery_big/gallery/Camaro%202010/Mannie%20Fresh%27s%202010/DSC00402.JPG

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-09-11, 11:13 PM
This is awesome. If I remember correctly, the 425hp 427 aluminum block/head '69 Camaro COPO was also called the ZL1, am I right? That one was super rare when new, hard to order and extremely hard to find now. Is that why they went with that over the Z28?

Aron9000
02-09-11, 11:50 PM
Looks great, and I'm glad they didn't go all boy racer on it like they did with the ZR1 vette. Got rid of that really annoying steering wheel as well.

Although I do find the wheel package somewhat lacking, these cars just scream for something with some offset and a fat lip. Although if I had $40,000 to blow on this, it wouldn't be an issue spending another $3,000 on some wheels.

But the best part is under the hood. I think this is the first forced induction motor they've ever put into a Camaro from the factory, should be faster than a CTS-V since its a little lighter. And I bet they'll offer an automatic trans as well by the time production rolls around, I mean they already sell the CTS-V with one.

C&C
02-10-11, 06:51 AM
The ZL1 moniker goes along better with what was presented. The Camaro with the 'monster' engine ala '69 COPO aluminum block '427' sleeper back in the day.

There still may be room for a Z-28 model (but that would probably be produced as a smaller, high output engine, with all the suspension goodies that can handle like 'stink'). That was the forumula back in the day for the original "Z-28". Of course this last statement is pure speculation and conjecture on my part.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-10-11, 09:24 AM
Ahh, gotcha, so a modern day Z28 would have a small, naturally aspirated V8 and would be more of a stripper inside than the ZL1 and SS.

Stingroo
02-10-11, 10:58 AM
Z28 would be a stripped race package SS I'd guess. Like, no radio, little insulation, etc. All that good stuff.

Amphibian
02-10-11, 12:20 PM
I love it, both the improvements outside and within. I hope it drives as well as it looks! But I wonder if Chevy will eventually offer the automatic.

Jesda
02-10-11, 12:26 PM
What a massive interior upgrade!

Oh and 556hp is nice too.

Stingroo
02-10-11, 01:07 PM
They offer the auto in the CTS-V. I see no reason why it wouldn't make its way into this Camaro.

JimmyH
02-10-11, 03:01 PM
I just hope they don't do another IROC :lol:

And what's wrong with the current steering wheel? Everyone who ever got in my car, the shape of the steering wheel is their favorite part. Instead of having a round cross section, it's more oval shaped. It's nice to hold on to.

JimmyH
02-10-11, 03:03 PM
Ricer mail slot?

SBgWpmffDng

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 05:07 PM
I just hope they don't do another IROC :lol:

And what's wrong with the current steering wheel? Everyone who ever got in my car, the shape of the steering wheel is their favorite part. Instead of having a round cross section, it's more oval shaped. It's nice to hold on to.

Looks great, but every review that was written when the car was introduced seemed to pan the wheel as a serious case of form over function. Now the new one addressed those complaints but went back to looking generic. Guess you can't please everyone.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2009/09/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-the-steering-wheel-of-safety.html

orconn
02-10-11, 05:32 PM
What is this "huge" interior "upgrade" that people keep referring to in reference to this ZL1 Camaro? The only thin I see is suede covering added to the otherwise gee whiz early Nippon boombox dashboard. To be honest the suede insert looks like many of the "tailored" velour dash sun protectors you see advertised in "Road and Track." I bought one of those for my Alfa twenty years ago and thought it looked so crappy I put in the truck and never used it.

I like the exterior, but I'm sure the "boy racers" would appreciate a real "shaker" air cutout on the hood!

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 05:38 PM
Oh, no doubt Orconn, the center stack in this car HAS to go, it's really only ever been MY only complaint about the whole interior. It looks like a GPX stereo but the worse part is that no concession was made to allow for a Navigation/Infotainment system that both competitors offer. In fact, the next Challenger will move to an 8 inch multifunctional display. I think that just as in the wheel, GM was trying to "out-retro" the rest and bring the interior as far back as they could. Unfortunately they went a little too far.

Stingroo
02-10-11, 05:49 PM
Looks cool to me. Who gives a shit about luxury infotainment in a Camaro? You should be having too much fun driving it to care how much info is crammed on your stupid little LCD screen.

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 09:21 PM
Looks cool to me. Who gives a shit about luxury infotainment in a Camaro? You should be having too much fun driving it to care how much info is crammed on your stupid little LCD screen.

Uhh for $40 grand I better have shit to hear and play with when I'm stuck somewhere where I can't wring it out. This car is daily driver material and it needs to compete on a daily driver interior level. I'm not bashing as it's a bargain compared to the V, but I'm not a GM apologist either and not recognizing the importance of up to date interior features is just silly. If I wanted to roll around in a tin can with a motor I'd just piece together a resto-mod car and get three times the looks to boot.

The Mustang has the best interior of this group, with the best technology and the best audio system at a similar price-point. The GT and the GT500 will still plant your ass in the seat and explode your ear-drums with noise when you want to, so why can't I have both in the GM product? I'm sure GM will address this as besides the steering wheel (which I liked), the center stack was the only other common complaint about this car.

JimmyH
02-10-11, 09:31 PM
I dont know, I disagree. While it has retro hints, the overall styling is unique. It does not look anything like the 2nd gen Camaro it was said to be styled after, inside or out. As far as the nav, who cares? $1000 for an oem nav? That will get spanked by a $200 garmin. Besides, if you have to have it built in, $1000 will pay for 6 years of Onstar which puts the directions right between the speedo and tach.

As for the interior changes, GM never said anything about a redesigned interior. That was internet rumor that snowballed until everyone assumed it was official. I am pretty sure this tricked out interior is specific to the ZL1. I highly doubt even a $40k 2SS will have alcantara splashed all over the place.

For myself, as I said before, I have come to appreciate the simple interior. Many others in the Camaro forums share that sentiment. You just have to get past the initial impression of cheapness. The ergonomics are sheer brilliance. After a few weeks in the car, I was able to control the hvac, all the simple radio controls, and even some of the more advanced ones without even looking at the center stack.

My one lingering complaint is the crappy stereo. An optional $500 stereo should sound ALOT better.

JimmyH
02-10-11, 09:37 PM
If I wanted to roll around in a tin can with a motor I'd just piece together a resto-mod car and get three times the looks to boot.

btw, 1st-4th gen were tin cans. This car is not. An hour behind the wheel is all you need to appreciate the stoutness of the chassis and drivetrain, and the harmony of the suspension. This is NOT a pony car. Rip out the back seats, and it would be sports car.

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 09:45 PM
I dont know, I disagree. While it has retro hints, the overall styling is unique. It does not look anything like the 2nd gen Camaro it was said to be styled after, inside or out. As far as the nav, who cares? $1000 for an oem nav? That will get spanked by a $200 garmin. Besides, if you have to have it built in, $1000 will pay for 6 years of Onstar which puts the directions right between the speedo and tach.

As for the interior changes, GM never said anything about a redesigned interior. That was internet rumor that snowballed until everyone assumed it was official. I am pretty sure this tricked out interior is specific to the ZL1. I highly doubt even a $40k 2SS will have alcantara splashed all over the place.

For myself, as I said before, I have come to appreciate the simple interior. Many others in the Camaro forums share that sentiment. You just have to get past the initial impression of cheapness. The ergonomics are sheer brilliance. After a few weeks in the car, I was able to control the hvac, all the simple radio controls, and even some of the more advanced ones without even looking at the center stack.

My one lingering complaint is the crappy stereo. An optional $500 stereo should sound ALOT better.

Those are good points. My point is that if I want GM to sell more cars, which I do, then they need to be on an even keel with the cars they compete with. We obviously have the performance and the love it or hate it looks, just like the other two... but Ford has already proven it can sell a trash-can of a car on technology alone with the OLD Focus platform. So if that many people will avoid a better car like the Cruze because the outdated garbage Focus has Sync, and the Mustang and Camaro compete MUCH more closely (as the Mustang is actually a GOOD car) it is logical to expect a proper sound system and navigation in the GM product as well, and I think giving a GM a pass on this just because the rest of the car is "good enough" is a sure way to end up right back where we started.

Personally, I can't stand portable Nav units and I don't like mounting things in my cars. Besides, with each successive generation nav units are becoming far more than that, as they integrate bluetooth functionality, can display vehicle details and record performance information all in one large screen. At the very least, an LCD is nicer to look at than all the silver plastic that's there now.

JimmyH
02-10-11, 09:59 PM
True, the 2011 Mustang is a great, great car. But it still has one feature that will keep tens of thousands of guys like me from buying it: a live axle. It does not take much inspection of the Camaro to realize the real money was spent on the chassis, and pittance was diverted to the interior. I know some people have to have factory nav. But I have played with navs from Cadillac, Infiniti and Lexus, and they all lag behind the portable units, functionally anyway. Which makes sense. It takes the automakers at least 3 years to bring a new car to market. Garmin can develop and manufacturer a new unit in months. I just can't get over how much the automakers charge for a nav unit.

Bottom line is, the typical Camaro buyer will accept "good enough" on things like the interior. They won't suffer faults in the performance. That is what GM focused on I think. Not that any of it matters to me. I am betting the ZL1 is at least $50k. Probably closer to $60k than $50k. I can't see spending that much on a Camaro.

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 10:12 PM
True, the 2011 Mustang is a great, great car. But it still has one feature that will keep tens of thousands of guys like me from buying it: a live axle. It does not take much inspection of the Camaro to realize the real money was spent on the chassis, and pittance was diverted to the interior. I know some people have to have factory nav. But I have played with navs from Cadillac, Infiniti and Lexus, and they all lag behind the portable units, functionally anyway. Which makes sense. It takes the automakers at least 3 years to bring a new car to market. Garmin can develop and manufacturer a new unit in months. I just can't get over how much the automakers charge for a nav unit.

Bottom line is, the typical Camaro buyer will accept "good enough" on things like the interior. They won't suffer faults in the performance. That is what GM focused on I think. Not that any of it matters to me. I am betting the ZL1 is at least $50k. Probably closer to $60k than $50k. I can't see spending that much on a Camaro.

Fair assessment, I am going to defer to you on the live-axle situation as I'm not enough of a performance nut (yet) to realize the benefits one way or the other. As much as I hear about that axle I'm definitely inclined to believe that's a knock on the Mustang's part. For clarification Jim, I love the Camaro and I do NOT think it is a tin-can. I was speaking metaphorically to riding in a cage with nothing more than a stereo.

The bottom line is this... The Camaro and Mustang have finally revived their glory days (I'm still reserving judgement on the Chrysler twins). Anything that gives the Camaro even that little edge makes it all that much better to me.

drewsdeville
02-10-11, 10:51 PM
fwiw, the problem with a live axle is that wheels on each side of the car are connected...meaning anything that happens with the wheel on the right side inherently affects the wheel on the left side and vice versa, limiting control to some degree. Especially under high horsepower like the cars in this discussion, it usually results in handling and ride that's less predictable and less controlled compared to an independent setup. Best word I can think of to describe the live axle feeling is "jittery". This is especially true in rough conditions like the street. A magazine will tell you that on their test course, the Mustang handles every bit as good or better than the Camaro. I'm guessing that's far from the truth if you get into it a little on the street.


Here are some grossly exaggerated examples:
http://home.bresnan.net/~evelyn_scovel/liveaxle.jpg
http://home.bresnan.net/~evelyn_scovel/IRSDraw.jpg

Stingroo
02-10-11, 10:53 PM
Yeah. On the track I'm sure it does handle just as well, because tracks are generally maintained and what not. On a cracked potholed city street, I'd bet the Camaro was the winner for ride comfort by far.

drewsdeville
02-10-11, 11:02 PM
Exactly. The solid axle is great in some applications because it's, well...cheap. There's little R&D involved, cheap to produce, cheap to maintain, and in low performance applications, it's good enough. However, in a performance vehicle that's supposed to be able to take a turn decently while pushing over 400 horse, I find it to be intolerable.

Playdrv4me
02-10-11, 11:20 PM
Exactly. The solid axle is great in some applications because it's, well...cheap. There's little R&D involved, cheap to produce, cheap to maintain, and in low performance applications, it's good enough. However, in a performance vehicle that's supposed to be able to take a turn decently while pushing over 400 horse, I find it to be intolerable.

The off-road market still covets the live-axle for its ability to articulate, but due to the sacrifice of on-road ride quality, even stalwarts like the Grand Cherokee finally gave in to independent suspensions in the last few years.

orconn
02-11-11, 01:02 AM
Are we talking "off road dynamics" here? I thought we were talking about cars meant to handle surface road twisties and not embarrass themselves too badly on a road course track. If that is the case the only real case that can be made for live rear axle is its' economy as a component. Live rear axles have been archaic since the mid 1950's. Even the Dedion rear suspension had bit the dust by the mid-1960's. Even the Army's Vietnam era Jeeps went to a poorly engineered and performing independent rear suspension (it was a copy of the German swing axle which was developed before w.w. II and was lethal on crowned mud roads and many other situations). Jaguar, Corvette and Lamborghini=i all had excellent I.R.S systems, not mention Lotus, by the 1965. The last of the competitive sports racing cars to have live rear axles were Morgans and they were considered to be out moded by 25 years when they were raced in the early '60's. Yes some of the production classes that featured Datsuns and Healey Sprites .... but these were not even somewhat "state of the art" classes at the time.

Live rear axles, in a performance car, mare really only a cheap expedient and good for only one thing... accelerating quickly, hopefully, in a straight line!

Playdrv4me
02-11-11, 01:22 AM
Are we talking "off road dynamics" here? I thought we were talking about cars meant to handle surface road twisties and not embarrass themselves too badly on a road course track. If that is the case the only real case that can be made for live rear axle is its' economy as a component. Live rear axles have been archaic since the mid 1950's. Even the Dedion rear suspension had bit the dust by the mid-1960's. Even the Army's Vietnam era Jeeps went to a poorly engineered and performing independent rear suspension (it was a copy of the German swing axle which was developed before w.w. II and was lethal on crowned mud roads and many other situations). Jaguar, Corvette and Lamborghini=i all had excellent I.R.S systems, not mention Lotus, by the 1965. The last of the competitive sports racing cars to have live rear axles were Morgans and they were considered to be out moded by 25 years when they were raced in the early '60's. Yes some of the production classes that featured Datsuns and Healey Sprites .... but these were not even somewhat "state of the art" classes at the time.

Live rear axles, in a performance car, mare really only a cheap expedient and good for only one thing... accelerating quickly, hopefully, in a straight line!

I brought up the aspect of off-road dynamics because as it relates to live axles, on road comfort and handling have even eroded into the one market where that arrangement was highly desired. Given that, I can see why it would be even more soughtafter on a performance car.

drewsdeville
02-11-11, 10:26 AM
Yeah, there's a bit more give and take in the off road scene. The ability to articulate is absolutely true. However, with an IRS, the differential can be tucked way up under the body, adding some ground clearance, like in the picture of the H1 below. IRS is probably better for high speed off roading, say like for bajaing rather than rock climbing.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1XknPAfZhcs/SWNPW7K0_dI/AAAAAAAAD5g/vlq15DGyvdE/s400/Hummer+H1.jpg

I don't think you can even get an ATV without IRS.

Stingroo
02-11-11, 11:14 AM
And many of them have IFS by now I'd suspect.

I'd love an ATV.. too bad there's nowhere in FL to ride one. :(

JimmyH
02-13-11, 08:15 PM
The mustang handles extraordinarily well for a live-axle car; as long as the road is smooth as glass. Add in any bumps, holes, or even undulations, and it shows its live axle. otoh, I have over 8000 miles in the Camaro on Chicago's notoriously cratered roads, and it never, never gets squirmy. That is what has impressed me the most. I have yet to find a section of road that can unbalance this car.

As for what I hate, have I mentioned the crappy stereo?

JimmyH
02-13-11, 08:17 PM
Live axle has one redeeming quality; durability. Drag racers can easily send 1000+ lb-ft to a racing diff. I have not heard of IRS that can do that.

I don't know anything about off-roading, but I am sure it is the same thing. A solid axle is going to take a lot more punishment than an independent.

Rodya234
02-13-11, 08:49 PM
I would imagine that a live-axle would be troublesome for off-roading because of the uneven surface.

JimmyH
02-13-11, 09:04 PM
Not as troublesome as a CV joint blowing up in the middle of no where.

orconn
02-13-11, 09:07 PM
Not as troublesome as a CV joint blowing up in the middle of no where.

Got that right!

drewsdeville
02-13-11, 11:23 PM
An IRS can easily be built to withstand high horsepower, especially with the huge growing aftermarket support out there. The diff can be built just the same as a live axle's.

Anyone using an IRS for severe duty like drag racing are using solid u-joints, not cv's. There is little need for cv joints in the rear since the range of motion is only about 1 axis, unlike the front where another axis is a concern due to steering movement of the wheels. You typically don't steer with the rear wheels.

http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog/images/Steering/heiirs1.gif

Besides, contrary to popular belief, cv's are actually quite reliable as long as they stay greased. The only time they really "explode" is when the application they are used in puts them at an incorrect geometry. That's why failure is so common on lifted trucks. A truck on stock suspension will ride on it's factory front cv's it's whole life as long as they stay lubed...even with a horsepower boost. But as soon as some dumbass high school kid gets a hold of that truck and puts a lift on it so he can spend his life savings on some 33" super swampers, it starts blowing cv joints every month.

The Raven
02-13-11, 11:41 PM
An IRS can easily be built to withstand high horsepower, especially with the huge growing aftermarket support out there. The diff can be built just the same as a live axle.

Anyone using an IRS for severe duty like drag racing are using solid u-joints, not cv's. There is little need for cv joints in the rear since the range of motion is only about 1 axis, unlike the front where another axis is a concern due to steering movement of the wheels. You typically don't steer with the rear wheels.

Yup...great. Try launching 1000hp through an IRS. I'm sure there are units that can hold the power, but god help you if you are the driver trying to keep the car going in the direction you intend. It is a massive evil bitch to effectively launch high HP cars on IRS. I know this from extensive personal experience. I love IRS for the road and circuit, but for the strip, you can have it.

DouglasJRizzo
02-14-11, 09:45 AM
CTS is the best lux sedan on the market? It must still be warm enough to grow the funky green where you are, eh? Its arguable that the CTS is the best in its class. It doesnt hold a flame to any of the real luxury sedans. Seriously whut!?

Quite frankly, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe the CTS and particularly the "V" to be the best luxo sedan available. Most people think BMW or MB, and the problem is that when Cadillac makes a BMW/MB slayer, no one looks. The Teutonic marketing machine is very adept at presenting the "image" of Fritz and Klaus hammering out sedans in some quaint German village, when in fact a large number of BMW's and MBs are made here in the US in a factory that may or may not be as modern as GM or Ford.

The CTS and especially the V, are quite capable of embarrassing the AMG and M series sedans. The CTS I drove felt to be assembled every bit as good as those other sedans as well. So what gives? Image, is what. The three pointed star and whirling propellor badge carry more than any engineering or performance advantage ever could.

The ZL1 -
Funny, the only people who remember this moniker are die hard performance freaks, so it's interesting that GM chose it. The car is nicely done. The interior has a lot of cues from the original 67-69 car. As far as the exterior goes, I'd say its as flashy as I would ever want it. In fact, it's serious "cop bait" just as it is, never mind adding to it.

Another thing about the ZL1, is that when the option was offered back in the 60s few people ever bought stuff like that. Ditto for L88s Z06s Ram Air IV and V, Boss 429s 427 SOHC's, Stage1 and 2 Buicks, etc. I've always wondered why, although I think that the price tag may have had something to do with it.

Stingroo
02-14-11, 10:06 AM
Last paragraph sums up my thoughts on these new cars exactly. Sure, they look awesome, but they're much flashier than their predecessors. An original ZL-1 would probably have vinyl seats, steel wheels and dog dish hubcaps, and that's about all. A/C? Screw it, save weight. Radio? What radio - it's under the hood.

Sadly though, that's a bygone custom that we just won't ever see come back.

The Raven
02-14-11, 12:22 PM
Last paragraph sums up my thoughts on these new cars exactly. Sure, they look awesome, but they're much flashier than their predecessors. An original ZL-1 would probably have vinyl seats, steel wheels and dog dish hubcaps, and that's about all. A/C? Screw it, save weight. Radio? What radio - it's under the hood.

Sadly though, that's a bygone custom that we just won't ever see come back.

You're forgetting a very important detail.

In the days of the first ZL-1, things like A/C, power steering, power brakes, and FM radio were cutting edge tech. Things like windows and padded seats were expected though, and people back then were probably complaining that they HAD to have windows that could be rolled down and those damn heavy padded seats.

These days there are alot of features that are requirements in a modern automobile of ANY class. Airbags galore, (what used to be considered deluxe) cloth seats are a minimum (remember these used to cost extra), at least a single disc CD player, and if it can't handle MP3's in 2011, well there's something wrong with that automaker. Things like A/C and automatic transmissions became requirements 15 years ago.

If GM were to offer a ZL1 with vinyl seats, no radio or ac, and wind up windows, it would SERIOUSLY damage the Camaro's image.

Stingroo
02-14-11, 01:14 PM
I'm not sure what you're on about. I understand all that. I get that those things are commonplace, standard, expected and even demanded. I wasn't suggesting they offer that either. If the Camaro SSX (I think that's what it was?) and Z06X get the greenlight - those cars would be what the original ZL-1 was.

JimmyH
02-14-11, 03:52 PM
The Teutonic marketing machine is very adept at presenting the "image" of Fritz and Klaus hammering out sedans in some quaint German village, when in fact a large number of BMW's and MBs are made here in the US in a factory that may or may not be as modern as GM or Ford.

Bravo, you nailed it. The only thing about BMW that impresses me anymore, is their ceaseless ability to coerce uninformed consumers into buying their highly-overpriced (and over-rated) machines.


The ZL1 -
Funny, the only people who remember this moniker are die hard performance freaks, so it's interesting that GM chose it.

I am betting that is why they chose it. I don't think they want this very modern, all-around performer getting confused with the C4 Z28 that was good at, well, almost nothing.

JimmyH
02-14-11, 03:58 PM
An IRS can easily be built to withstand high horsepower, especially with the huge growing aftermarket support out there. The diff can be built just the same as a live axle's.

Yup. If your pockets are near bottomless, anything can be accomplished.

And yes, modern CVs are very reliable. Especially compared to their predecessors, the U-joint. But they will never be as strong as a comparable sleeve bearing. Leave the strength out of it; solid axles are cheaper and lighter.

That's why Ford is using them on the Mustang. I don't knock them for it, I am just saying I don't want one. Put a Mustang GT and a Camaro SS on a smooth track, and the Mustang is going to walk all over the Camaro. Simply because it's lighter. Put those same two cars on Chicago's roadway system, and the guy in the Mustang is going to get fed up with the ride real quick.

Playdrv4me
02-14-11, 04:36 PM
The current BMW is in the middle of an identity crisis, despite the fact that the Bangle era is fading from memory. Unfortunately now that the cars are returning to a semi acceptable appearance, the driving characteristics have now taken their place, becoming muddy and lacking their trademark razor precision.

Gary's 335i is probably the last little pocket of BMW goodness, along with, of all things, the new x3.

DouglasJRizzo
02-15-11, 10:24 AM
Something else to consider with the ZL-1. When it was first introduced 40+ years ago, things like A/C, stereo sound, et al were EXOTIC in a car like that. Less than 5% of 67-69 Camaros had the factory Stereo. A/C was rare as well. The other stuff was practically unheard of. Also, GM, at least, had a habit of making many comfort/convenience/luxury options unavailable on the highest performance cars. Remember, the 60s was the age of Nader and the last thing GM wanted was building 100,000 cars that had 500 hp in them. The inability to order certain options was most likely to prevent the majority of buyers from selecting the top engine option.

I remember a Corvette guy telling me that if you bought an L88 powered car you couldn't get a radio, a/c or even a heater! I wouldn't know, but it doesn't sound too far off track. So the buyer back then, faced with an engine option that was more than the base price of the car itself, and the inability to have certain things factory installed, went for a lesser engine and built the car the way he/she wanted it.

Today, things are quite different. Today's buyer DEMANDS that the top engine option be available with every gewgaw and gadget that they want. Look at the current corvette or Shelby. Buying one without a/c or a stereo is next to impossible, much less the p/w and all the other stuff. I know a guy who preps cars for road racing and he spends more time removing goodies than adding things.