: Going to the mall, throw on a sweat shirt and a pair of baggy but clean shorts?



orconn
02-08-11, 05:47 PM
On the few occasions when I have been to the Mall, recently, I have noticed that "Lazy-Boy" casual seems to be in. A sweat shirt some baggy shorts seem to be the norm. No attempt show any sartorial style, or some would say "pride of dress" not even in a vague attempt to show an effort in choosing one's apparel.

Those sloppy, baggy, mid calve "peddle pushers" that gang members used to wear (maybe still do) when My son was in high school fifteen years ago seem to have become the norm for suburban Mall dress. It seems guys have really opted out as far as dress goes, with a as long as its' clean and doesn't stink its O.K.!

This so-called "casual" attire does not seem to be the province only of the young. Many a middle aged, middle management type can be seen in the same mode of dress. I wonder sometimes whether this is motivated merely by a desire for comfort, or perhaps there is a post adolescent sense of rebellion against authority going on here.

Stingroo
02-08-11, 06:06 PM
Comfort. I couldn't care less in most situations what I'm wearing, as long as it matches. Jeans or shorts and a t-shirt (often, an orange t-shirt :lol:) will suffice for most days. I hate formal and semi-formal dress and avoid it whenever possible.

77CDV
02-08-11, 06:11 PM
The days of dressing to go out are long gone, Orconn. Pity, but there you have it. Heck, the style of dress you describe wouldn't be out of place at church these days.

gdwriter
02-08-11, 06:33 PM
I generally dress for comfort, but I also like to look good. Today, for example, I'm wearing khakis with a long-sleeve pullover. Other days, I'll wear jeans to work. And I have button-down shirts for important meetings or other appropriate occasions. In summer, I'll wear cargo shorts as often as I can, and I have some sandals (not flip flops) that are fine for work. While I'm not a clothes horse, I like to wear nice things (but I'll usually shop at Polo or Calvin Klein outlets or take advantage of department store sales). I also don't skimp on shoes. Cheap shoes don't last.

On Sunday, I'm planning to take my girlfriend out to a nice restaurant for Valentine's Day, and I will dress up for the occasion. I probably won't wear a tie since I'm not sure I have a shirt the fits comfortably with the collar buttoned, but I'll have on a sport coat.

Playdrv4me
02-08-11, 06:53 PM
I find that so long as my shoes don't look ratty , pretty much anything else goes.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 06:57 PM
Comfort. I couldn't care less in most situations what I'm wearing, as long as it matches. Jeans or shorts and a t-shirt (often, an orange t-shirt :lol:) will suffice for most days. I hate formal and semi-formal dress and avoid it whenever possible.

I agree with this. It's common to see people choose clothing for comfort over style today. There's nothing wrong with being able to go out without worrying about looking your best...we have more important things to worry about. Just like in my discussion about cars, I'm more about functionality that style. I'm comfortable in my cheap plain white T's with durable blue jeans and work boots whether I'm at the mall or at work. Don't like it? Don't look! I dress for ME, not anyone else. No one I know finds it offensive. If some do, sucks to be them, doesn't hurt my feelings. I won't intentionally dress offensively, and I'll dress accordingly for special occasions and such, but I also won't go out of my way to make happy the few people who cruise the mall concerned about other people's looks. :cookoo:

orconn
02-08-11, 07:02 PM
As one who has eaten out over the years, I have to say I was appalled to see tourist, and I guess locals, eating at some of the finer restaurants in L.A. (in this case the world reknown "Lawry's the Prime Rib" on La Cienega) dressed in baggy Bermudas, polo shirts (if that good) and cross trainers chowing down on some of the finest prime rib served anywhere in the world. The women in these groups also seemed to be in shorts and tee shirts.

Even fifteen years ago when this practice of casual dress for formal eating establishments had already taken hold I found it off putting to be putting out $50. per place and having the formerly beautiful ambiance of the restaurant diluted by those who couldn't be bother to dress appropriated.

There once, and not that long ago, were enforced "dress codes" which required a jacket and a tie to be seated in the finer restaurants. Today it seems even the better restaurants have yielded to "wear whatever suits you" code and to be honest it has devalued the finer dining experience. Today with a full meal at a very good upscale restaurant costing in the neighborhood of $150.00 per person, I have opted out of the fine dining experience that I once took great delight in experiencing. I personally think restaurants than want both types of patrons (such as Lawry's) should have a separate dining room for those who feel Mall casual is the height of their effort .... maybe a little sawdust on the floor, paper napkins and their beer in a can. And let those of us who want to still enjoy fine dining in a more formal way have a dining room that caters to this lifestyle!

OffThaHorseCEO
02-08-11, 07:17 PM
i actually like to dress up. i buy button downs, office attire and semi-formal wear more often than i buy jeans and comfort clothes.

with that said, if im going to pay 150 per person to eat somewhere, i want to be able to wear whatever i want. granted, ill probably want to fit in, but if i dont, id probably laugh at you for looking twice at me

Jesda
02-08-11, 07:44 PM
I wear ugly-ass track pants if I'm just running errands. But if I plan on being out all day then it feels good to look decent.

Stingroo
02-08-11, 07:47 PM
As one who has eaten out over the years, I have to say I was appalled to see tourist, and I guess locals, eating at some of the finer restaurants in L.A. (in this case the world reknown "Lawry's the Prime Rib" on La Cienega) dressed in baggy Bermudas, polo shirts (if that good) and cross trainers chowing down on some of the finest prime rib served anywhere in the world. The women in these groups also seemed to be in shorts and tee shirts.

Even fifteen years ago when this practice of casual dress for formal eating establishments had already taken hold I found it off putting to be putting out $50. per place and having the formerly beautiful ambiance of the restaurant diluted by those who couldn't be bother to dress appropriated.

There once, and not that long ago, were enforced "dress codes" which required a jacket and a tie to be seated in the finer restaurants. Today it seems even the better restaurants have yielded to "wear whatever suits you" code and to be honest it has devalued the finer dining experience. Today with a full meal at a very good upscale restaurant costing in the neighborhood of $150.00 per person, I have opted out of the fine dining experience that I once took great delight in experiencing. I personally think restaurants than want both types of patrons (such as Lawry's) should have a separate dining room for those who feel Mall casual is the height of their effort .... maybe a little sawdust on the floor, paper napkins and their beer in a can. And let those of us who want to still enjoy fine dining in a more formal way have a dining room that caters to this lifestyle!

I feel like this is the height of unwarranted pompousness. Who really pays that much attention to what other people around them are doing at a restaurant? If I go out, I'm there to eat good food and be served with good service - I don't care about Joe Schmoe two tables over from me who's wearing a t-shirt and jeans.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 07:54 PM
Agreed, otherwise you essentially are paying to see people dressed up. I don't need to pay $150 for that, I can just go to church.

When I walk into a mans business to give him my money, I'm looking for the services he has to offer. I really don't care about his other customers.

If you want an aesthetically pleasing environment with a good meal, your best bet will be buying yourself a cookbook and eating in your own home.

gary88
02-08-11, 07:55 PM
I feel like this is the height of unwarranted pompousness. Who really pays that much attention to what other people around them are doing at a restaurant? If I go out, I'm there to eat good food and be served with good service - I don't care about Joe Schmoe two tables over from me who's wearing a t-shirt and jeans.

Because when you go to a fine dining establishment you are paying for an overall experience rather than just the food itself, and having to look at somebody the next table over wearing crocs and sweatpants can detract from that.

I like to look presentable wherever I go, plus I just feel better overall and tend to be more productive when wearing nice clothes.

Jesda
02-08-11, 07:59 PM
I feel like this is the height of unwarranted pompousness. Who really pays that much attention to what other people around them are doing at a restaurant? If I go out, I'm there to eat good food and be served with good service - I don't care about Joe Schmoe two tables over from me who's wearing a t-shirt and jeans.

Part of the experience is the aesthetics. Its what people pay a premium for, so if someone is under dressed, everyone else is getting less atmosphere for their money.

Playdrv4me
02-08-11, 08:13 PM
I could care less if y'all decide to eat naked. But for pete's sake keep your whining children at home.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 08:15 PM
I could care less if y'all decide to eat naked. But for pete's sake keep your whining children at home.

/ thread

Stingroo
02-08-11, 09:01 PM
:highfive:

Jesda
02-08-11, 09:32 PM
When I walk into a mans business to give him my money, I'm looking for the services he has to offer. I really don't care about his other customers.

I generally agree, but from a business perspective, I don't.

When I go into a store, I want it to be clean, organized, and tidy. At a high-end shopping mall, you have well-dressed high-end customers and professional staff. When you buy a new luxury car, it matters if the showroom is clean and the salesman is professional.

You unknowingly pay for aesthetics more often than you think. When you reach a level of achievement (I haven't) you might pursue a higher level of refinement in everything you do as a reward for all that you've worked for.

This includes restaurants where both the staff and patrons are properly dressed and mannered. You want to feel clean and well cared for and be among like-minded people. Fine dining establishments intentionally don't want casual patrons to go there.


In all aspects of life, there are tiers.

ben.gators
02-08-11, 10:00 PM
Comfort clothing, yes, I can understand it and that is a very good idea....
But for God's sake the malls, restaurants and other public spaces are not your bedroom.... repeat after me: Pajamas are not suitable for public places!

And yes, I like formal dressing, and this is my personal preference for myself.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 10:56 PM
I generally agree, but from a business perspective, I don't.

When I go into a store, I want it to be clean, organized, and tidy. At a high-end shopping mall, you have well-dressed high-end customers and professional staff. When you buy a new luxury car, it matters if the showroom is clean and the salesman is professional.

You unknowingly pay for aesthetics more often than you think. When you reach a level of achievement (I haven't) you might pursue a higher level of refinement in everything you do as a reward for all that you've worked for.

This includes restaurants where both the staff and patrons are properly dressed and mannered. You want to feel clean and well cared for and be among like-minded people. Fine dining establishments intentionally don't want casual patrons to go there.


In all aspects of life, there are tiers.


While I agree this happens, it doesn't mean I'm about to go out of my way to convenience those that put themselves on some special "tier".

The fact is that as long as a high end resturaunt or expensive end of the mall is a public place, anyone is welcome. Guys in baggy pants are fair game just as a guy dressed in a suit and tie. If I want to eat a $150 meal in blue jeans and a T-shirt, I'm gonna do just that. The business knows that $150 is the same from the baggy pants guy as the suit and tie guy, and that's why Orconn sees both types seated. If another customer doesn't like this, he might just have to move on to the next "tier" that includes eating behind the private doors of a club or some organization that caters to this thought process. Apparently, he's not living up to his own expectations yet and he has a lot more work to do to get himself to that desired tier.

When you eat in public, you eat with the public. It's simple, really. Deal with it and enjoy the food with the company of your party, achieve more and move on, or go home and cry about it. Don't expect the public to change for your sake because they won't, I promise.

Jesda
02-08-11, 11:08 PM
While I agree this happens, it doesn't mean I'm about to go out of my way to convenience those that put themselves on some special "tier".

The fact is that as long as a high end resturaunt or expensive end of the mall is a public place, anyone is welcome.

Except that's not the case at all. The establishment can set a dress code if it chooses to. They're permitted to deny service to those who seem unsuitable or behave poorly as long as it doesn't violate certain federal and state statutes against unfair discrimination for race, disability, etc etc. (Unless its a membership-based establishment).


Its a self-resolving issue anyway since your average Joe isn't going to spend $150 on a meal. Its unlikely he's into that sort of thing. The price is enough function as a barrier.



They and other patrons don't want you in their restaurant.

You don't want to pay out the arse for a dead cow and a cloth napkin.



Looks like everyone's getting along!





When you eat in public, you eat with the public. It's simple, really. Deal with it and enjoy the food with the company of your party, achieve more and move on, or go home and cry about it. Don't expect the public to change for your sake because they won't, I promise.

That has nothing to do with anything. Who wants the public to change? The public doesnt have to do anything. People naturally associate with the establishments that cater to the level at which they see themselves.

Sounds like you're the only one crying. No one asked you to overpay for a meal.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 11:13 PM
Except that's not the case at all. The establishment can set a dress code if it chooses to. They're permitted to deny service to those who seem unsuitable or behave poorly as long as it doesn't violate certain federal and state statutes against unfair discrimination for race, disability, etc etc. (Unless its a membership-based establishment).


Its a self-resolving issue anyway since your average Joe isn't going to spend $150 on a meal. Its unlikely he's into that sort of thing. The price is enough function as a barrier.



They and other patrons don't want you in their restaurant.

You don't want to pay out the arse for a dead cow and a cloth napkin.



Looks like everyone's getting along!






That has nothing to do with anything. Who wants the public to change? The public doesnt have to do anything. People naturally associate with the establishments that cater to the level at which they see themselves.

Sounds like you're the only one crying. No one asked you to overpay for a meal.

Er...this is all in regards to Orconns post about eating high end $150 prime rib with people in baggy shorts and tennis shoes...which pretty much nullifies your whole post. Orconns argument is that the above DOES happen, and he's asking why the public doesn't dress better for the meal...or in other words, why the public won't change :hmm:

Jesda
02-08-11, 11:21 PM
Er...this is all in regards to Orconns post about eating high end $150 prime rib with people in baggy shorts and tennis shoes...which pretty much nullifies your whole post. Orconns argument is that the above DOES happen.

A well-regarded restaurant in high demand doesn't have to accept patrons that fall below its standard of dress. If they are, then its possible that they're eager for business and not as great as believed.

I don't really do the whole fine dining thing anyway unless its a special occasion or my folks invite me. They've achieved things in life and don't consider an expensive meal a large expense. Relative to their income, I imagine its probably like me splurging on fancy coffee.

The food is usually superb, but its nothing that couldn't be made at home with sufficient training. Its just not really my thing.

gdwriter
02-08-11, 11:31 PM
A lot of golf courses still require a collard shirt and prohibit denim. I wear cargo shorts (or pants in cooler weather) simply because the pockets are deeper for carrying balls and tees. If it's a course I haven't played, I will check or just make sure I'm wearing a collared shirt. I have plenty of them, so it's not a big deal.

I'm not a huge fan of dress codes, but I think common sense and common courtesy (neither of which are all that common unfortunately) should prevail.

Jesda
02-08-11, 11:37 PM
I won't step foot in country clubs without at least attempting to look like a Ralph Lauren ad. I'm big and brown so I stick out badly enough as it is.

I have to admit, once we're done with brunch I kind of feel relieved because its just not my kind of place to hang out.

drewsdeville
02-08-11, 11:42 PM
A well-regarded restaurant in high demand doesn't have to accept patrons that fall below its standard of dress. If they are, then its possible that they're eager for business and not as great as believed.


Right now, this minute, I could walk into Milwaukee's top/most successful steakhouse and order a $160 Australian kobe filet, a $40 seafood appetizer platter, and a few drinks wearing a polo shirt, which falls short of Orconns expectations.

Again, read Orconns post, #7, where he talks about diminishing dress codes (which is one part of the post I agree to). I think you are forgetting the topic he's concerned about: It's not that they are accepting patrons below dress code, it's that the dress code idea is being eliminated, or at least relaxed to the point where it really doesn't take effect. If the dress code is eliminated in a high end resturaunt open to the public, he can't expect the public to conform to his personal dress code expectations.

Jesda
02-09-11, 12:10 AM
I see now what you're saying, and you make a valid point. If the establishment doesn't set the code, then that's the way it is.

On the other hand, people could clean themselves up, just a little bit, as a courtesy to others. It doesn't even have to be an issue of class or inclusion/exclusion.

Ranger
02-09-11, 12:17 AM
I could care less if y'all decide to eat naked. But for pete's sake keep your whining children at home.
:yeah:

And turn your damned cell phones off or take your conversation outside.

orconn
02-09-11, 01:03 AM
Just out of curiosity I check Lawry's recent listing and they have re-instated a dress code. Today they are requiring "business casual" dress. I guess they discovered they were loosing customers because of their previous policy.

But you are right, Drew, if standards of deportment bother you should take your trade somewhere else!

drewsdeville
02-09-11, 10:33 AM
That generic casual business dress code seems to be the most you see anymore. I mean, really, all that means is don't go in there in basketball shorts and a tank top with your hair all messed up. Otherwise it seems quite flexible. Like Jesda said, just clean yourself up, look presentable, and you are good to go.

So on that thought, why the diminishing dress codes? Are the well-to-do just more modest now than in the past (seems so, to a point, even outside of dining)? Perhaps the rising upper middle class is now interfering with Orconn's traditional idealogy? Does creating severe exclusivity cut into profits too much? After all, Americans love to eat...we will pay far more than we can afford when going out, but only if the doors are open.

Stingroo
02-09-11, 10:45 AM
I have no horse in this fine-dining race, as I can honestly say I've only experienced it a handful of times in my life. Most of those times, I was also quite annoyed by it. I guess it isn't for everyone. :lol:

Jesda
02-09-11, 10:59 AM
So on that thought, why the diminishing dress codes? Are the well-to-do just more modest now than in the past (seems so, to a point, even outside of dining)? Perhaps the rising upper middle class is now interfering with Orconn's traditional idealogy? Does creating severe exclusivity cut into profits too much? After all, Americans love to eat...we will pay far more than we can afford when going out, but only if the doors are open.

The upper middle class isn't rising at all. Unless you've been under a rock for two years, you know the opposite is happening.

The recession is hurting the entire restaurant industry, and not just high-end establishments. Bennigans went out of business entirely. Carabba's is closing several locations. Maggiano's is enticing people with two-for-one meal deals with the hope that people will buy expensive appetizers and drinks to compensate for the cost of giving away an entire meal. It hasn't worked, so they've reduced the portion size of their pastas to compensate.

Those who once were able to afford to dine out (and dine well) are now eating from soup cans and living off funds pulled from their retirement until they can find work.

The finance sector was hit particularly hard. There's an ongoing NPR feature about people seeking employment in St Louis, most of them are well-established professionals. One guy who once earned six figures in telecommunications is now doing landscaping work for his neighbors to make ends meet.

In the short term, some restaurants are trying to increase traffic by lowering perceived barriers. The problem is, once the recession is over, its harder to climb back up than it is to step down.

Americans are happy to eat, and eat a lot, but most of restaurant industry is going through a period of deflation -- fewer customers, fewer locations, cheaper menus, lower standards, and lower prices.

On the other hand, in places like Texas and the Dakotas, the recession is only a minor disruption. Shopping centers are expanding and restaurants on all tiers are being built to keep up with consumer demand.


Meanwhile, deep-discount grocers like Aldi are planning to build in my suburb, which only a few years ago would have seemed completely out of place considering this area's demographics.

OffThaHorseCEO
02-09-11, 11:28 AM
aldi is the best!

Jesda
02-09-11, 11:47 AM
Its kind of amazing how damn near everything at Aldi is under two bucks.

drewsdeville
02-09-11, 11:55 AM
Er...I didn't mean a financial rising, but I can see how that could get confused. ""Rising" was a poor word to use. My bad.

What I mean is...a psychological boost, I guess, if that makes any sense: the increasing tendency of the upper middle class (whats left of it) to to portray themselves as upper class, showing disdain for other classes below it. Sometimes this is indirectly mentioned when talking about higher end cars. Most of the population flocking to my rapidly expanding hometown is another example I used in your thread last week. It throws a wrench in the aforementioned traditional ideology. When that upper middle class is walking around flaunting itself as upper class, s*** hits the fan when it's true colors are shown...such as when fine dining with Orconn.

It seems like this is happening now more than ever with the typical lower/middle/upper class system in chaos.

Jesda
02-09-11, 12:28 PM
$30k millionaires

drewsdeville
02-09-11, 02:27 PM
Yeah, there are a lot out there and initially it's humorous. At the same time I almost feel bad for them. Almost.

GizmoQ
02-09-11, 03:55 PM
Times they are a changing. I can't even find a dry cleaners that still does ties. Formal dress is on its way out except for a minute number of special events. I remember long ago, whenever I traveled across the south (especially by car) I would do it in a suit and tie or my dress uniform to keep from being harassed. To this day, I still always pack a suit and dress shoes when I travel (except when backpacking).

ben.gators
02-09-11, 04:04 PM
^
"to keep from being harassed"
Who was harassing? Cops?

orconn
02-09-11, 04:26 PM
The suspicion generated by a non local black man (or for that matter any stranger) passing through a Southern community very often spurred investigation by the local police. This phenomenon continued well into the late 20th century! More business like attire could lessen this type of harassment!

hueterm
02-09-11, 04:45 PM
Times they are a changing. I can't even find a dry cleaners that still does ties. Formal dress is on its way out except for a minute number of special events. I remember long ago, whenever I traveled across the south (especially by car) I would do it in a suit and tie or my dress uniform to keep from being harassed. To this day, I still always pack a suit and dress shoes when I travel (except when backpacking).


Hopefully because you want to bring them...not because you have to...

ben.gators
02-09-11, 05:22 PM
The suspicion generated by a non local black man (or for that matter any stranger) passing through a Southern community very often spurred investigation by the local police. This phenomenon continued well into the late 20th century! More business like attire could lessen this type of harassment!

So everything was just because of a man?!

GizmoQ
02-09-11, 05:37 PM
Hopefully because you want to bring them...not because you have to...

Let me relate a story to you that will hopefully enlighten you why I am this way.

Back at the Air Force Academy (77-81), I refused to succumb to the herd mentality when it came to anything especially when it came time to buy my college car. There was no way I was going to be one of the hundreds of vettes in the parking lot. I couldn't affor new so I bought a 76 Jag XJS that needed a rear main seal. I did the work myself over the course of several months and on my first test drive, I was pulled over by the Colo Springs police. I was laughing so hard when the cop walked up I almost got arrested. It wasn't that I was speeding or broken any laws, but picture this:

I was 18 looked 12. There were a total of three of these cars in all of the state of Colorado at the time, looked as exotic as any Ferrari or Lambo. And I looked like Don Carnelius covered in grease and oil and dirt in a ragged filthy T-shirt shorts and converses. ------ I looked like I stole the car and had to work for it! :histeric: After 20 minutes he was satisfied I was the owner and let me go.

The next time (appx 2 months later) I was pulled over I was late picking up my date for a formal dinner. I was in my military tuxedo, clean as a whip, yet it still took me 20 minutes to convince the cop I owned the car. I was pissed!

After the fourth time I was pulled over that year, I presented the desk sergeant with pictures of me and my car and my lawyers business card to brief at shift change that the next time I was pulled over without being arrested or ticketed, my lawyer would make me a very rich man.

Another reason, too, was that in the military you didn't have to renew your drivers license in Illinois. Can you imagine being puled over in Yazoo Mississippi at 3AM in a brand new Z-3 and show the good old boy a license that was 10 years expired!

As a side note, traveling in uniform has gotten me out of several tickets - many state troopers are also reservists (rank does have its privileges). :cool2:

Back on topic:
You can tell when a couple is celebrating a special occasion they're the ones dressed well, while the touri are in shorts. When I'm going out to buy that $150 steak dinner, I want to be treated like royalty and don't mind dressing the part. A bunch of friends and I descended upon the Peabody hotel in Memphis one Valentine's weekend and turned the dress code back a hundred years. By that Saturday nite we had created an impromto Tux and Tails gala in the hotel ballroom - no one not in black tie/after 5 was allowed in, yet our group was less than a dozen and the ballroom was at capacity of 200.

There are still a few of us out here.

EChas3
02-11-11, 10:29 PM
IMHO, the owner of a business has the right to choose their guests and set the limits of acceptable behavior; from dress to smoking. Governments have far overstepped their constitutional roles.

I do not understand why anyone would want to be somewhere they are not wanted. That is simply rude and inconsiderate. Conversely, I do not understand some people feel the need to limit others behavior. If they don't like someone or the actions permitted by their host, they can leave.

OffThaHorseCEO
02-12-11, 11:15 AM
from dress to smoking. Governments have far overstepped their constitutional roles.

this argument comes up often in my area, we're one of top tobacco producing states.

I agree that government should back off a bit, but not when it comes to issues affecting health. If you dont regulate youll have dog being passed off as chicken.

Jesda
02-12-11, 12:09 PM
Open cigar bar
Have cigar bar shut down due to local smoking ordinance



GOSH I FEEL SAFER