: The EPA, cars, and E15



Submariner409
01-20-11, 09:31 PM
Log into your favorite news outlet and surf to the forthcoming decision (tomorrow) by the U.S. EPA that E15 is "safe" for engines built after 2000.

Kiss your gas mileage even further goodbye..........."Big Brother knows what is best for you" (and so does the Corn Belt Lobby).

While you're at it, log into the Senate and House sites and find out which Senators and Representatives championed this 50% increase in the corn/ethanol requirements....................

jayoldschool
01-20-11, 10:13 PM
Good thing all my cars were made after 2000! Oh, wait... what?

Ranger
01-20-11, 10:59 PM
Oh no, not more ethanol. :banghead:

ejguillot
01-20-11, 11:13 PM
Crap. Wonder how long E10 will still be available... And it sucks to think that now I can look at E10 as the "not so bad" stuff!

Jesda
01-21-11, 02:59 AM
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/corn.jpg

SDCaddyLacky
01-21-11, 05:37 AM
LOL that some funny but true shit! Corn is in every damn thing, even in stuff totally unexpected.

Politicians don't work for us, they work for their backers, corporations. I still can't believe how much the US subsidizes corn farmers, it's like they're basically paying these people to produce more and more for fuel and cheap commodities that doesn't help heal this country, if anything corn based products promote obesity.

Why not subsidizes healthy organic foods? Give farmers that truly care about making healthy food for the nation help make the food more affordable for average families.

Damn ethanol, all the classic car guys should take notice on this. It's not about doing whats right for cars or fuel economy, it's about paying back BIG CORN! Bastards:nono:

Aron9000
01-21-11, 07:10 AM
LOL that some funny but true shit! Corn is in every damn thing, even in stuff totally unexpected.

Politicians don't work for us, they work for their backers, corporations. I still can't believe how much the US subsidizes corn farmers, it's like they're basically paying these people to produce more and more for fuel and cheap commodities that doesn't help heal this country, if anything corn based products promote obesity.

Why not subsidizes healthy organic foods? Give farmers that truly care about making healthy food for the nation help make the food more affordable for average families.

Damn ethanol, all the classic car guys should take notice on this. It's not about doing whats right for cars or fuel economy, it's about paying back BIG CORN! Bastards:nono:

Totally agreed!!!!!

I am pretty damn liberal in my politics, but I am definitely in the camp of voting out the incumbent, regardless of political party. I will always vote for the challenger, provided they aren't some tea bagger nut case.

And ethanol is probably one of the biggest wastes of our tax dollars. Without the federal government corn subsidies, E85 would be $1-3 higher than gas. Needless to say all these subsidies are needlessly inflating the price of your regular e10 grade gas. If I had to guess, e10 subsidies are inflating your prices by at least 15 cents a gallon. Not to mention the inflation of food prices, since more corn is being turned into fuel instead of grain/food.

Anyways, the real point behind government subsidies for ethanol is to artificially inflate the price for corn, and corn futures. All this really does in enrich the large 5,000+ acre corn farmers, investors, future/commodities traders, and agribusiness companies like McCormick, Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill, etc.

SDCaddyLacky
01-21-11, 09:23 AM
Totally agreed!!!!!

I am pretty damn liberal in my politics, but I am definitely in the camp of voting out the incumbent, regardless of political party. I will always vote for the challenger, provided they aren't some tea bagger nut case.

And ethanol is probably one of the biggest wastes of our tax dollars. Without the federal government corn subsidies, E85 would be $1-3 higher than gas. Needless to say all these subsidies are needlessly inflating the price of your regular e10 grade gas. If I had to guess, e10 subsidies are inflating your prices by at least 15 cents a gallon. Not to mention the inflation of food prices, since more corn is being turned into fuel instead of grain/food.

Anyways, the real point behind government subsidies for ethanol is to artificially inflate the price for corn, and corn futures. All this really does in enrich the large 5,000+ acre corn farmers, investors, future/commodities traders, and agribusiness companies like McCormick, Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill, etc.

Your exactly right when you say the subsidies are to artificially inflate the price of corn, purposely to expand the already powerful corn corporations, and everybody else in between. I am also liberal to moderate in my beliefs (not an environmental maniac), but far too many times even Democrats politicians that you would think are for the people, are just simply working for BIG whoever, doing things in congress that solely benefit CEO's and their stockholders of large publicly traded companies. BIG CORN is like the rest of them, BIG OIL, BIG BANKS, BIG PHARMA, BIG DEVELOPERS, BIG FOOD, all the most powerful names in the biz that run, control, and dominate this country. D.C Congress are pawns for these businesses, nothing more.

We need to move away, far away from corn based products, there really isn't anything truly healthy in corn, look at cows that are grass fed, and compare them to corn fed ones. The corn fed cows are much fatter, unhealthier, and tend to attain higher levels of the horrible strain E.Coli. No wonder so many Beef recalls have been made in recent years, look what they are eating! Not only that, but they are eating GMO or (Genetically Modified) corn which is even worse, and causing all kinds of diseases in cows and in humans. High Fructose corn syrup is an example, it's highly processed highly modified way to make certain foods taste sweet. It's terrible for you and your digestive tract.

Ethanol is a joke, and wont save the planet from anything. Eventually oil prices are going to skyrocket like they did a few years ago, and what will US do? Absolutely nothing. We wont do anything about anything unless our backs are up against the wall in time of a crisis. Hydrogen should be the key for the near future, what else are we going to do when oil reserves become diminished? And OPEC decides to screw us over big time? We need far more alternatives, but like I said, who do the politicians work for? Do we really think they will let BIG OIL down? If people drove cars that allowed for various amounts of alternative fuels to be used, gas consumptions would dip, thus lowering profits for the BIG OIL. They wont allow it to happen. BIG PHARMA wants all of us to be sick, very sick, so you and I can keep buying their drugs that kill people. BIG FOOD puts chemical poisons and toxins that get us sick on purpose, so BIG PHARMA benefits off your illness. It's all one BIG GIANT HAPPY FAMILY working as one to control America and it's interest. You gotta give it to them, they really know how to fool the American people. A Cure for Cancer? NO WAY!! That means no money for BIG PHARMA, all those marathon races for the cure is complete bogus! People need to realize drug companies don't want to cure anything, why can't anyone see this? If they did, nobody would donate money to any cancer research programs which all goes to creating new drugs to make money off, not cures. The FDA is a perfect example of uber corruption at it's finest.

77CDV
01-21-11, 03:45 PM
We're from the government, and we're here to help! :eek:

jayoldschool
01-21-11, 04:58 PM
I am happy to be in Canada. I can still get ethanol-free gas (usually just 91 or 93 octane, though), and we don't use HFCS in all of our foods like the US. We still use good old fashioned cane sugar. Soda, ketchup, everything... tastes better, and is better for you.

ben.gators
01-21-11, 10:15 PM
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/corn.jpg

Yeah, you are, including in my....
I really don't understand... let's take a look from another point of view too... Do you know how many people in the world are suffering from hunger? And here government is using the food as fuel!!!

V-Eight
01-22-11, 01:29 AM
Corn has pretty much no nutritional value. Besides, the world is already overpopulated.

ben.gators
01-22-11, 02:42 AM
Corn has pretty much no nutritional value. Wrong! Cereals are the prime source of calories for many people around the world.


Besides, the world is already overpopulated.

I am not sure what do you exactly mean and what do you want to say!

EChas3
01-22-11, 08:15 PM
Its a lousy fuel, wasteful, inefficient, expensive to transport, bad for engines and better used as food for people or livestock.

Obama needs a 'winner'. E15.

Yeah, that'll work!

RippyPartsDept
01-22-11, 08:57 PM
who saw "The Informant" with Matt Damon? ...

ga_etc
01-22-11, 11:15 PM
Such a bunch of crap. I think I'll start buying my gas at the local Chevron up the road from my house. Ethanol free gas, and locally/privately owned.

EChas3
01-22-11, 11:49 PM
All the gas in the 5-county Milwaukee area comes from the same pipeline. It is all mixed with the same 10% corn-based ethanol trucked-in to the centralized distribution center. It's Wisconsin's brilliant solution to EPA findings of poor air quality. 15 years later, the air quality is great, but they won’t change!

Only the additives vary from station to station. If they go E-15, I will have little choice but to find a bootlegger.

ga_etc
01-23-11, 01:28 AM
The ethanol in the gas around here doesn't seem to really bother the Eldorado, but it makes the valves rattle in the Roadmaster's 350. If I put the ethanol free stuff in it, it quietens down substantially. E15 would probably really mess with it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-23-11, 10:59 AM
I hate Ethanol, and don't even get me started on the royal scam known as the "EPA".

"Earthwide Pussification Agency"

drewsdeville
01-23-11, 08:34 PM
Oh the creativity floweth :bigroll:

orconn
01-23-11, 08:50 PM
All the gas in the 5-county Milwaukee area comes from the same pipeline. It is all mixed with the same 10% corn-based ethanol trucked-in to the centralized distribution center. It's Wisconsin's brilliant solution to EPA findings of poor air quality. 15 years later, the air quality is great, but they won’t change!

Only the additives vary from station to station. If they go E-15, I will have little choice but to find a bootlegger.

Ah, Wisconsin, land of the La Follettes and the Socialist Party! When I was a freshman at U of W Madison it was the law that each restaurant meal had to be served with cheese, and of course it was illegal to sell "colored" marjoran in the state (even the little capsules of yellow food coloring used to convert white uncolored marjoran to a more "butter like" facsimile were bootlegged in and considered "contraband").

However, the good news was Memorial Union was the one of two student unions in the country that sold 3.2% beer and the drinking age for consumption of 3.2% beer in Dane County, where the University was located was 18. The availability of 3.2% beer on virtually every street corner probably had a great deal with 2/3 of the freshman class dropping out before the end of the sophomore year!

Aron9000
01-24-11, 04:59 AM
Any good citizen of Wisconsin has at least a .05 bac at all times. God I've never been to such a haven of drunks as Green Bay, and going to see the Packers play the Vikings. I wouldn't trade that football experience for anything though:cool2:


Also, GA ETC, my 91 with the same 350 TBI garbage disposal motor runs great on e10. Weird that yours is that picky, does it sit a lot?

77CDV
01-25-11, 01:34 AM
When it gets as cold as it does in WI, who can blame the poor SOBs for keeping the firewater close at hand?

ga_etc
01-25-11, 07:31 PM
Also, GA ETC, my 91 with the same 350 TBI garbage disposal motor runs great on e10. Weird that yours is that picky, does it sit a lot?

No, it gets driven on a daily basis, for the most part. The motor is smooth, has full power (for an L05), and gets good gas mileage. It just has a little valve rattle.

DouglasJRizzo
01-26-11, 05:18 PM
People complain about milage and blame the automakers. It's only gonna get worse.

johnny kannapo
01-26-11, 10:43 PM
Hopefully ethanol is on a road to death now that the majority of folks realize that too much green has definite unintended consequences.

The EPA is not accountable or aware for actual negative effects their imposed mandates are causing.

In the end the economy will prevail and the environmental conservation will fit in more naturally with time instead of pushed progressive haste.

Submariner409
01-27-11, 12:02 AM
???????? "The majority of folks" now realize that Obama is nothing more that a "Pitchman in Chief" and you gotta understand he's not going anywhere but up ??

...............and do you think, for one skinny minute, that the Democratic Machine will shoot their "ethanol pork" goose that lays the golden eggs ($,$$$,$$$,$$$) ?? The EPA is an entrenched government bureaucracy: no one - but no one - will ever be able to cut back on its power, growth, or mindless control. The EPA, like the IRS, is an infectious plague on the American people.

Too bad that the workers who supported this country through a depression, world war, foreign police actions, and the subsequent recoveries are relegated to a mere audience for the charlatans, fakirs, fools, jesters, ringleaders and vaudevillians currently in power: the whole Congress, no exceptions.

77CDV
01-27-11, 01:09 AM
Hopefully ethanol is on a road to death now that the majority of folks realize that too much green has definite unintended consequences.

The EPA is not accountable or aware for actual negative effects their imposed mandates are causing.

In the end the economy will prevail and the environmental conservation will fit in more naturally with time instead of pushed progressive haste.

Good news! There are many effective medications to treat delusional thoughts like these. Ask you doctor which one is right for you! :bigroll:

johnny kannapo
01-27-11, 02:57 AM
Our capitalistic system will prevail. Voters will dictate that. Food vs ethanol diluted gasoline. Its a no brainer. Corn is an inflated bubble that will burst.

SDCaddyLacky
01-27-11, 05:15 AM
Free Market Capitalism crushed our economy, if it wasn't for all the bailouts, TOO BIG TO FAIL CORP being saved from going under, this nation would be in a real depression at the moment under Capitalistic rules. I think people have forgotten about this.

Why can't we let the free market take care of itself?? I hear this saying from the right all the time, well because it can get out of control through corruption and lack of regulation, it's that simple. Free Market only goes so far enriching a country, it needs to be seriously guided and controlled to a certain extent to tame any bad situation in the future.

It's funny how certain people hate big gov, yet cry for help when their SSI checks are being reduced, and their Medicare coverage isn't covering as much as it used too. Lets be real, gov is needed, not in everything, but a lot of people in this country need help somehow or will need help in the future. When your permanently disabled, who's supporting you? The Gov. Unless your rich or put away hundreds of thousands of dollars at a young age, then there's nothing to worry about. In most cases, people haven't saved the kind of money that will allow them to have a better life at an older age.

This whole ethanol topic has "Suspicion" written all over it.

Aron9000
01-27-11, 06:10 AM
Free Market Capitalism crushed our economy, if it wasn't for all the bailouts, TOO BIG TO FAIL CORP being saved from going under, this nation would be in a real depression at the moment under Capitalistic rules. I think people have forgotten about this.


I totally agree with this, 2008 was a repeat of 1929 IMO. Except that the U.S. government and the International Monetary Fund intervened and prevented more than 15 critical bank collapses, along with bailing out the U.S. auto industry.

If there had been no bailouts, I'm convinced over 30% of the U.S. banking industry would've closed doors, and the ENTIRE U.S. automobile industry would've declared bankruptcy and been shut down. With that signifciant shock to industry, it would not have suprised me if we lost 50% of our manufacturing jobs in this country if we didn't bail out the auto industry.

Jesda
01-27-11, 11:43 AM
Free Market Capitalism crushed our economy,

No.

The regulatory environment that was supposed to protect us was manipulated by big players to allow them to dabble in risky investments (to play in a bubble created by government) while giving the public the false impression of a well-regulated, protected system.

In this situation, a heavily regulated environment was far worse for the public, as it created a false safety net that caught everyone off guard and encouraged home ownership at high interest rates.

This is typical of most regulations -- the big players make all the rules and manipulate legislators and so-called regulators while squeezing out smaller competitors. Likewise, the bailouts favored the largest and most corrupt banking institutions while several smaller local and regional banks continue to go out of business, hundreds each year! No one talks about them because the media doesn't care.


As for 1929, you're revising history.


The role of an economic slump is to correct inefficiencies and eliminate poorly run firms to allow for a more rapid and lasting recovery. By bailing out poorly run and corrupt firms, we've only perpetuated the original problem.

Trade barriers and high interest rates set by the federal reserve were major contributors. This meant that American goods lacked export markets which would have allowed firms to recover (a stupid move intended to save American jobs only ended up killing them), and the money supply was unusually low due to foolishly high interest rates. Of course, these same monetary policies can also create bubbles like those seen in housing, which, once they burst, can leave massive holes and bring other industries down with it (like the auto sector).

Our current fiscal policy is also dangerous, but we can debate Keyensian theory after I've walked the dog.

dkozloski
01-27-11, 03:03 PM
No.

The regulatory environment that was supposed to protect us was manipulated by big players to allow them to dabble in risky investments (to play in a bubble created by government) while giving the public the false impression of a well-regulated, protected system.

In this situation, a heavily regulated environment was far worse for the public, as it created a false safety net that caught everyone off guard and encouraged home ownership at high interest rates.

This is typical of most regulations -- the big players make all the rules and manipulate legislators and so-called regulators while squeezing out smaller competitors. Likewise, the bailouts favored the largest and most corrupt banking institutions while several smaller local and regional banks continue to go out of business, hundreds each year! No one talks about them because the media doesn't care.


As for 1929, you're revising history.


The role of an economic slump is to correct inefficiencies and eliminate poorly run firms to allow for a more rapid and lasting recovery. By bailing out poorly run and corrupt firms, we've only perpetuated the original problem.

Trade barriers and high interest rates set by the federal reserve were major contributors. This meant that American goods lacked export markets which would have allowed firms to recover (a stupid move intended to save American jobs only ended up killing them), and the money supply was unusually low due to foolishly high interest rates. Of course, these same monetary policies can also create bubbles like those seen in housing, which, once they burst, can leave massive holes and bring other industries down with it (like the auto sector).

Our current fiscal policy is also dangerous, but we can debate Keyensian theory after I've walked the dog.

I didn't realize that you did skateboard tricks.

Jesda
01-27-11, 03:28 PM
My worthless knees do not permit skateboarding of any kind.

johnny kannapo
01-27-11, 07:02 PM
Free Market Capitalism crushed our economy, if it wasn't for all the bailouts, TOO BIG TO FAIL CORP being saved from going under, this nation would be in a real depression at the moment under Capitalistic rules. I think people have forgotten about this.
.

Free market Capitalism did not crush the economy, IT WAS THE HOUSING BUBBLE created by the Clinton administration in the early 90's freeing regulations enabling risky lending practices & allowing the grouping & mixing of good & bad loans to be sold traded as a hot potato with with a deceptive credit rating. 20 yrs. of the Washington sticking their heads in the sand to allow anyone with a heartbeat to over borrow.

Stingroo
01-27-11, 07:12 PM
Erm... pardon me sir, how could the Clinton Administration do ANYTHING in the 80's?

johnny kannapo
01-27-11, 07:17 PM
Erm... pardon me sir, how could the Clinton Administration do ANYTHING in the 80's?

90's

Stingroo
01-27-11, 07:25 PM
Just checking, 'cause you typed that out and I was like "Wait, what?"

Jesda
01-27-11, 07:29 PM
Well, I don't think its fair to only blame President Clinton for the housing bubble. It was a combination of policies set in the 70s, policies set in the 90s, a lack of concern in the 2000s, interest rates that remained stupidly low even during times of aggressive growth and prosperity, and blind greed on the part of the private sector.

orconn
01-27-11, 08:27 PM
Well, I don't think its fair to only blame President Clinton for the housing bubble. It was a combination of policies set in the 70s, policies set in the 90s, a lack of concern in the 2000s, interest rates that remained stupidly low even during times of aggressive growth and prosperity, and blind greed on the part of the private sector.

the roots of the recent financial disaster, as Jesda says, go back to beginning of deregulation of the financial industry, which compounded the problem with each decade. Despite fair warning as to the problems these policies allowed (saving and loan debacle being the first real warning), Congress continued to repeal regulation and under fund the enforcement of existing regulation, and the unscrupulous got more and aggressive in their greed. Regulators fell asleep at the wheel and didn't motivate and support what Little staff they had. The greedy used the ignorant or just plain stupid to rake in the fee from lending to the unqualified and the "ivy league" educated manning the wheels of Wall Street abandoned their fiduciary roles and stuck it to unknowing, but greed driven institutional investors and their clients. A perfect storm of greed and corruption ensued and the American middle class will never again see the standard of living that their parents knew.

ThumperPup
01-27-11, 08:37 PM
i have confidence that in the next year or 2 we will be getting ridden of these corn shit fuels
im not sure why but i think next president will understand and now that the republicans are getting back in office at least it seems that way lately and i know the Ohio Governor has already mentioned that he is going to make it his best efforts to allow us to drill for oil in Ohio

Jesda
01-27-11, 08:58 PM
Well, the corn lobby transcends party lines. President Bush was an advocate of ethanol as well.

Ethanol can work if its sold without subsidies to local consumers, but once you start shipping it to the coasts by truck (it cannot be transported with pipes), it becomes quite silly.

ThumperPup
01-27-11, 09:05 PM
I think bush was only intrested in it at first because the enviormentalist got off his ass when he showed intrest in it from what i could remember but i dont think another office will let it stay in just my apinion
also come on ppl are starving in some areas and no they cant even aford corn

Jesda
01-27-11, 09:28 PM
On top of that, we put high tariffs on sugar while subsidizing corn. Sugar-based ethanol yields more energy and requires less energy per acre to grow.

And coca cola hasn't been the same without real sugar.

EChas3
01-28-11, 12:26 AM
My '93 Roadmaster ran fine on most E10. There is a chain called QwikTrip around here and their gas caused that old 5.7 pushrod V8 to sound like a popcorn popper under nearly any but the lightest throttle.

I can't remember any other car having that reaction (other than an old Rambler). I think it's normal sound was a ping!

cadillac kevin
01-28-11, 12:58 AM
My '93 Roadmaster ran fine on most E10. There is a chain called QwikTrip around here and their gas caused that old 5.7 pushrod V8 to sound like a popcorn popper under nearly any but the lightest throttle.

I can't remember any other car having that reaction (other than an old Rambler). I think it's normal sound was a ping!

I had problems with my 86 fwb when I put QT gas in it. the engine would randomly start knocking really bad, then it would vapor lock and cut out and make noise like it was blowing up (super loud engine noise like a diesel semi and sputtering). Thankfully nothing was hurt. when I would fire the car up again, it would run fineafter it got out whatever crap was left in the engine. it would give off some foul black smoke and have a rough idle for about 45 seconds, then it would run ok for a couple days, then do it again. I didnt use QT gas in either of my cars ever again since it made my car run like pure crap for 2 weeks until the tank was dry.

johnny kannapo
01-28-11, 02:06 AM
Well, the corn lobby transcends party lines. President Bush was an advocate of ethanol as well.

Ethanol can work if its sold without subsidies to local consumers, but once you start shipping it to the coasts by truck (it cannot be transported with pipes), it becomes quite silly.

Corn liquor in gas doesn't have a chance with out the billions Washington props it up with.
It's just not profitable. never was never will be.
Its a entitlement for farmers.

Producing it the math doesn't work.
Using it to save oil that math doesn't work.

The unintended consequence is it's driving up all food prices.

The environmental impact of ethanol production goes against the whole principle for using it in the first place-its dirtier than oil to refine.
.

ThumperPup
01-28-11, 10:44 AM
we all know that obama said he would stop the outragouse spending of money that bush had started i think or bush had taken over but then what the hell is it that obama has doen look how mouch more trillions in debt we are he has spend so much more freaking money come on
anyone who gets in office next is gona try and cut all this shit out

i bet they will atleast try

you know yeah the corn was suffering and famers where suffering but why bail them out and not someone els eveyrone els was suffering also
im sure there are other things they could have subsadized to help run fuel and all but

when it comes down to it
we need to drill on our own land
come on we have already screwed up the envorment there is no way to turn it around right now and save it for our children or childrens grand children
only thing that would help the earth is the apocolips wipe us clean and start over

so come on just drill in our country whats the worst that happens the earth looses another 50 years lol

Jesda
01-28-11, 01:35 PM
With gas above $3.00 (oil above $80?), its cost-effective to extract oil from shale and tar in Canada.

EChas3
01-28-11, 11:17 PM
Corn liquor in gas doesn't have a chance with out the billions Washington props it up with.
It's just not profitable. never was never will be.
Its a entitlement for farmers.

Producing it the math doesn't work.
Using it to save oil that math doesn't work.

The unintended consequence is it's driving up all food prices.

The environmental impact of ethanol production goes against the whole principle for using it in the first place-its dirtier than oil to refine.
.

Brilliant!

The quintessential federal program.

EChas3
01-28-11, 11:39 PM
we all know that obama said he would stop the outragouse spending of money that bush had started i think or bush had taken over but then what the hell is it that obama has doen look how mouch more trillions in debt we are he has spend so much more freaking money come on
anyone who gets in office next is gona try and cut all this shit out

i bet they will atleast try

you know yeah the corn was suffering and famers where suffering but why bail them out and not someone els eveyrone els was suffering also
im sure there are other things they could have subsadized to help run fuel and all but

when it comes down to it
we need to drill on our own land
come on we have already screwed up the envorment there is no way to turn it around right now and save it for our children or childrens grand children
only thing that would help the earth is the apocolips wipe us clean and start over

so come on just drill in our country whats the worst that happens the earth looses another 50 years lol

Little of what you try to say has any basis in fact. The air is cleaner than it was 50 years ago. Climate change is a hoax. Current known domestic oil reserves could fuel US needs for over 50 years and we could find a lot more if allowed. Alaskan oil production has promoted wildlife. Electric cars and even hybrids are ahead of their time; in fact they are a waste of resources in context of today's cost of oil.

Coal is only second to nuclear as a practical source of electricity. Wind and solar still need a breakthrough before they can be viable. Government subsidies and tiny improvements just aren't enough and we can't afford it. The search would continue because those that discover the breakthroughs will profit thereby. as they should. Profit is good. It combats sloth.

Believe as you like but the truth will set you free.

RippyPartsDept
01-28-11, 11:58 PM
solar is actually getting pretty viable now... imagine if every roof had some solar on it... cost doesn't matter due to economies of scale (and other reasons*)
the efficiency of panel tech has been increasing lately too (as well as the modeling software to determine the most cost effective placement of panels on any given roof)

*there's even businesses out there now making money using the roofs of schools so the school doesn't have to put up the initial capital... they do have to wait for a few years before they get benefits but it is one way to get this kind of tech going without the burden of the initial costs

EChas3
01-29-11, 05:52 PM
solar is actually getting pretty viable now... imagine if every roof had some solar on it... cost doesn't matter due to economies of scale (and other reasons*)
the efficiency of panel tech has been increasing lately too (as well as the modeling software to determine the most cost effective placement of panels on any given roof)

*there's even businesses out there now making money using the roofs of schools so the school doesn't have to put up the initial capital... they do have to wait for a few years before they get benefits but it is one way to get this kind of tech going without the burden of the initial costs

Sanyo's best panels are still under 15% and that leads the industry. Real-world results are about half that. Solar only makes economic sense when somebody else pays for the investment. I'm optimistic it will get figured out, but a breakthrough is needed before it will be feasible.

Even then, it takes 'Jet A' kerosene to fly.

RippyPartsDept
01-29-11, 06:08 PM
oh and the solar steam power stuff sounds promising too...

Aron9000
01-29-11, 06:56 PM
At its current efficiency levels, solar only makes sense in the desert southwest, so its part of the solution for some people in this country. I doubt they're going to be putting up solar panels in Oregon or Washington state.

Submariner409
01-29-11, 08:29 PM
Energy sources..........heat...........home heat. Over here we're tapped into the Aquia aquifer for water - it's down about 150 - 275 feet. The water comes from the wells at 57 degrees forever. Some of us use a heat pump system which takes the well water, pumps it through heat pump coils, then back underground 200 feet away to a sealed reverse well to return it to the aquifer. There's a lot more "heat" to be extracted from 57 degree water than from 25 degree air...............FWIW the water in the Aquia comes from east of the Blue Ridge mountains. The water I pour into my bourbon started as ground water over there 10,000 years ago...........the rock and sand that the water flows through is so dense that even bacteria can't get past the first few miles of sandstone extrusion 70 miles west of here. Our well is 175 deep and can flow over 55 gpm.

drewsdeville
01-29-11, 08:56 PM
Isn't the Aquia in danger of being tainted by the fact that it's so shallow relative Chesapeake Bay?

EChas3
01-29-11, 09:23 PM
Geothermal is a great energy source for some. Iceland has no energy shortage.

I include Sub's concept. The high investment cost can mitigate some of the advantages but it is another renewable source of energy. I am excited by efforts to generate electricity from temperature differentials, like the deep-water ocean trenches.

But I still think that is a matter for private enterprise. Government allocation of capital doesn't work because decisions are made for political rather than practical reasons. This is too important to let government corrupt it.

Submariner409
01-29-11, 10:27 PM
Isn't the Aquia in danger of being tainted by the fact that it's so shallow relative Chesapeake Bay?

Not as far as we can determine from either voice or Internet communication with the Geological Survey. Maryland code now stipulates that any new development (since 2000) will tap into the much deeper Magothy aquifer - but that water needs heavy, dedicated treatment for calcium and iron. Our water - knock on wood - needs no treatment, even after 23 years on the same well. Some homes, west of here, have had problems with Chesapeake salt water intrusion, caused by marginally shallow well drilling into the Aquia - a cost factor in development development (?).

drewsdeville
01-30-11, 03:06 AM
Ah....gotta love livn' on the world's REAL (not oil) natural resource gold mine, the Great Lakes.

Submariner409
03-07-11, 02:07 PM
:bump:

Just because there's another E15 thread nearby................:devil: