: First Equii arriving on Ebay... Some observations...



Playdrv4me
01-11-11, 06:13 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2011-EQUUS-ULTIMATE-EDITION-TOTAL-LUXURY-11-EQUIS-/160524887188?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2560076494#ht_52546wt_1166

1. Price: 65k is a little too high. This is the price the 2011 LS460 STARTS at, they should not be "touching" at any option level, base or otherwise. I think it should have been 55k topped out.

2. Short of seeing a new vehicle in person, the first Ebay listings are usually the next best thing because the photos aren't touched up, or done with any special lighting. Given that, I think the instrument cluster is very underwhelming, and looks as if it came straight out of a Honda Civic. In a high end luxury vehicle, the center of the needles (the spindle piece) really shouldn't be visible, nor should the plastic all within and around the gauges. Luxury buyers expect LCDs here, floating or "flatter" guages, or Lexus style optitron. The DTS, STS and this Equus completely miss the mark on IP, but at least the Equus has the color LCD in there. This same cheap feeling continues on the Nav screen stack. It's just a little too small of a screen, and a bit plasticky all around.

3. With those minor gripes aside, this car looks fantastically menacing in black. A little less chrome and it would be nearly perfect. It just needs one more generation to work out the initial cheap bits.

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!!g6or8Q!mE~$(KGrHqQOKkIE0YRojg,kBNG6PdQ7Ng~~_4.JP G

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/!!g6orww!mE~$(KGrHqIOKogEy+jC)otJBNG6PWz-l!~~_4.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!!g6oqFQ!WE~$(KGrHqZ,!hYEze(HqsTwBNG6N-o04w~~_4.JPG

drewsdeville
01-11-11, 06:22 PM
Neat looking car. I actually really like the interior, though I'm sure my expectations aren't as high as others.

I have to ask about something I noticed in the ebay pictures though. Wtf is with some of the seat controls being located on the side of the backrest? I'm trying to think about what I might not be considering, but I can't figure out how that location could be convenient for anyone...

http://i.ebayimg.com/20/!!g6oso!BGE~$(KGrHqUOKowEy+jC1ZsBBNG6P5oDgw~~_4.JP G

hueterm
01-11-11, 06:25 PM
My guess is that they're redundant controls so that the back seat passenger can move the seat forward if they're being chauffeured.

hueterm
01-11-11, 06:27 PM
The presence of any crooked H's and the absence of the stand up winged hood ornament = FAIL. In the next office over from mine, one of the people there has a V8 Genesis, and instead of the crooked H on the trunk lid, there is an actual Genesis logo in its place. (Like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2009-HYUNDAI-Genesis-4dr-Sdn-4-6L-V8-/270688500797?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3f064abc3d)

That looks very good. They must be optional, or dealer added -- because I see Genesis' that have the crooked H too. HATE the crooked H....

And agreed -- $65K is too high. Hard ass loaded, it should top out at no more than $59K. It's not $16K nicer than the Genesis V8.

I don't know....a new Genesis V8 (or maybe a year old) vs. an '09 STS-V??? Hard choice.....

Stingroo
01-11-11, 06:35 PM
I like the instrument cluster. Simple and to the point. No reason for frills there - analog all the way.

I think the screen looks so small because of the way it's recessed into the dashboard. I bet if it were flush mount it would look better.

The exterior screams "meh". It looks like an S-class and an LS had a baby. What's the deal with the badging? They have the bird thing on the wheels, steering wheel and hood, and then the crooked crackpipe Hyundai H on the rear and underhood. Why? I'd get as far away from that logo as I possibly could....

ben.gators
01-11-11, 07:00 PM
Heh, from this direction it looks like a Saturn! :D

http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!!g6oqPQ!mE~$(KGrHqF,!hEEzev1KQ!9BNG6OHNdkg~~_4.JP G

orconn
01-11-11, 07:41 PM
I agree with Roo on the instrument cluster .... simple, straight forward with all the information you need. Looks like the best European clusters. The center stack is quite another story; I can't imagine a true luxury car buyer liking "boom box" plasticky stack! Maybe it will be a hit in Beijing, but the center stack, while more taste than some of the most recent monstrosity's really doesn't reach "luxury level.

Actually I think the placement of the power seat controls make a lot of sense, the placement on the seat panel next to the door never did make much sense and in the moire tight fitting cars of late led to scuffed knuckles.

The absence of the upright hood ornament is no loss to my eyes, the early cars with the "Scrooge Mc Duck"-like ornament seemed more a creation of Disney Animation than some West Coast styling studio. Especially when riding above that generically mawkish grill!

The rear quarter light (window) and angled rear window frame really cheapen and otherwise generic body design. You really can't fault the Koreans for setting new styling trends with this all to familiar shape and styling. To say that it doesn't get my blood flowing would be an understatement, saying that it was boring is much closer to the truth.

I wish the South Koreans well with their new entry into the upscale marketplace, but I am afraid the usual company will have no problem meeting their challenge.

gary88
01-11-11, 07:57 PM
So what's the difference between this and the Genesis again? More gadgets?

$65k is definitely high, I'd much rather be in a decently optioned 550i or E550 for that kind of money.

Jesda
01-11-11, 09:06 PM
Size and gadgets. The rear seat in the Genesis is tight while this one is commodious.

hueterm
01-11-11, 09:53 PM
Have you been in a Genesis? I was under the impression that the Genesis was generous and the Equus was extreme in the rear seat space...

Jesda
01-11-11, 10:04 PM
Genesis has a pretty tight cabin back there. My head was rubbing the headliner and I'm not tall.

hueterm
01-11-11, 10:08 PM
What about legroom? I didn't think even the Equus was overly generous in rear headroom...

Jesda
01-11-11, 10:13 PM
Being one quarter Indian means I basically have no legs. I'm like Danny Devito with a longer neck and more hair.

Playdrv4me
01-11-11, 10:21 PM
I like the instrument cluster. Simple and to the point. No reason for frills there - analog all the way.

I think the screen looks so small because of the way it's recessed into the dashboard. I bet if it were flush mount it would look better.

The exterior screams "meh". It looks like an S-class and an LS had a baby. What's the deal with the badging? They have the bird thing on the wheels, steering wheel and hood, and then the crooked crackpipe Hyundai H on the rear and underhood. Why? I'd get as far away from that logo as I possibly could....

It's not the analog part that I have a problem with. Analog is good (though Mercedes LCD system isn't digital either, it's an analog speedo represented on a high resolution LCD screen).

The problem is with the cheap, chinese plastic looking implementation.

Quality analog clusters...

2000-2005 Deville and 1998-2004 Seville. Notice how the the red needles seem to "float" in mid air with no visible attachment point. Also notice that all the warning light cutouts are COMPLETELY invisible until that warning light actually illuminates.

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2003-cadillac-deville-4-door-sedan-dts-instrument-cluster_100263829_m.jpg

Here's the Lexus system that Cadillac and Lincoln modeled theirs after (in the LS430)

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2006-lexus-ls-430-4-door-sedan-instrument-cluster_100264080_m.jpg

Even the OLDER Seville and Eldorado, and other older Cadillacs, despite not having electroluminescent gauges, still had a very tasteful execution of a basic gauge that looked of high quality, with a reasonably expensive Vacuum FL green display running underneath the gauges themselves...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d149/auctioncabin/Picture166.jpg

Now we have this chrome rimmed, blue lit, Hong Kong mass market crap. Instead of seeing a nice, blacked out cluster that "comes alive" when you hit the ignition, you get to stare at these reflective thin plastic needles...

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2006-cadillac-sts-4-door-sedan-v8-instrument-cluster_100267275_m.jpg

ga_etc
01-11-11, 10:39 PM
IP on the '96-'97 Seville and '96-'02 Eldorados:

Day
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv220/austin99etc/P8110031.jpg

Night
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv220/austin99etc/1111102238.jpg

I like this so much better than some of the crap that is out there now.

ga_etc
01-11-11, 10:55 PM
Even the IP in the Genesis sedan looks better than the IP in the Equus.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/33897660+w750/2010-Hyundai-Genesis-sedan-instrument-cluster.jpg

hueterm
01-11-11, 11:00 PM
I was thinking the same thing...

Stingroo
01-11-11, 11:09 PM
I see now. I agree, it does look weird. I'm just glad it isn't digital/LCD. That to me is ehhhh. One more thing to break lol.

Also I agree that the warning lights shouldn't be visible unless they're on. Especially on a car this expensive, maybe to give the illusion of needing no warning.

orconn
01-11-11, 11:22 PM
I prefer the non "electro luminescent" instrument dials on the '92-'97 Sevilles over the the luminescent ones on the 5th generation cars. I find the "electro-luminescent" instruments of the later Sevilles difficult to see under certain daylight conditions .... to the point that the instruments are just not visible.

ga_etc
01-11-11, 11:39 PM
I think that's why they also have the digital readout in green by the gear indicator at the top of the cluster.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-12-11, 12:25 AM
I think the Equus is nice overall. Nothing to write home about in terms of features or design, but that's not why it's in the market. It was designed solely to draw customers in terms of bang for your buck. There isn't anything else in this field that's this great of a value. With that being said, I can't wait to see one at the local Hyundai dealership and grab my first brochure.

Jesda
01-12-11, 04:35 AM
http://images.gtcarlot.com/pictures/39045576.jpg
Anything beats this. I still love the first-gen CTS, but the whole interior, especially the gauges, looked cheap as heck.

ben.gators
01-12-11, 04:47 AM
^
oh, please don't get me started on first-gen CTS! The interior was a big failure.... Indeed the interior design of all new models were horrible, first-gen Escalade, CTS, SRX...

96Fleetwood
01-12-11, 03:36 PM
Wow... $65k...??

This reminds me of the VW Phaeton FAIL of 2004...

The Equii will make an awesome used car purchase just like the Phaeton :cookoo:

Playdrv4me
01-12-11, 03:57 PM
Wow... $65k...??

This reminds me of the VW Phaeton FAIL of 2004...

The Equii will make an awesome used car purchase just like the Phaeton :cookoo:

W12 (and a good warranty) FTW!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-12-11, 08:05 PM
I think (and really hope) they learned their lessons from the Phaeton fiasco. If nothing else, the Equus should be more reliable than the Phaeton, and the Equus won't have an upmarket brother to fight against.

Playdrv4me
01-12-11, 11:09 PM
Curiously, none of the Equus I looked at on Ebay show the iPad anywhere in sight. In fact, a couple of them had paper manuals. I guess they come with both and the dealer keeps the iPads locked up.

thebigjimsho
01-13-11, 02:40 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2011-EQUUS-ULTIMATE-EDITION-TOTAL-LUXURY-11-EQUIS-/160524887188?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2560076494#ht_52546wt_1166

1. Price: 65k is a little too high. This is the price the 2011 LS460 STARTS at, they should not be "touching" at any option level, base or otherwise. I think it should have been 55k topped out.

2. Short of seeing a new vehicle in person, the first Ebay listings are usually the next best thing because the photos aren't touched up, or done with any special lighting. Given that, I think the instrument cluster is very underwhelming, and looks as if it came straight out of a Honda Civic. In a high end luxury vehicle, the center of the needles (the spindle piece) really shouldn't be visible, nor should the plastic all within and around the gauges. Luxury buyers expect LCDs here, floating or "flatter" guages, or Lexus style optitron. The DTS, STS and this Equus completely miss the mark on IP, but at least the Equus has the color LCD in there. This same cheap feeling continues on the Nav screen stack. It's just a little too small of a screen, and a bit plasticky all around.

3. With those minor gripes aside, this car looks fantastically menacing in black. A little less chrome and it would be nearly perfect. It just needs one more generation to work out the initial cheap bits.

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/%21%21g6or8Q%21mE%7E$%28KGrHqQOKkIE0YRojg,kBNG6PdQ 7Ng%7E%7E_4.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/%21%21g6orww%21mE%7E$%28KGrHqIOKogEy+jC%29otJBNG6P Wz-l%21%7E%7E_4.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/04/%21%21g6oqFQ%21WE%7E$%28KGrHqZ,%21hYEze%28HqsTwBNG 6N-o04w%7E%7E_4.JPGPricewise it is fine. That is a fully loaded Equus. That rear center stack w/massaging seats, etc, adds about $8G. Sure, it may touch a base Lexus, but an LS460L comparably equipped would be over $100G.

This month's C&D had a nice comparison test between the 2. It also talked about the first Lexus LS and showed how the Equus is a better value than that first Lexus was. A nicely equipped base Equus is in the upper $50Gs. And unless you're a private chauffeur, you forego the center stack for the ability to drive up to 4 passengers...

Lord Cadillac
01-14-11, 08:49 PM
Most people think this car is a fail. I think it's a win. Let's revisit this discussion a year or two from now and see who's right.

Also keep in mind that this car has been selling in South Korea for 2 or 3 years now. The second generation is already close to finished and will be available here in a few years along with 430 horsepower and an 8 speed transmission. And if they need it, supercharged or turbocharged with 500 horsepower..

The Raven
01-14-11, 08:59 PM
Am I the only one who notices that this car screams early-2000's Buick? Especially that interior! It's pretty much what I expected for Hyundai...it's nice, for a Hyundai.

The car's shortcomings, combined with its ambitious price, will lead to another short lived endeavor. Remember the XG? Same result.

Playdrv4me
01-14-11, 09:01 PM
Most people think this car is a fail. I think it's a win. Let's revisit this discussion a year or two from now and see who's right.

Also keep in mind that this car has been selling in South Korea for 2 or 3 years now. The second generation is already close to finished and will be available here in a few years along with 430 horsepower and an 8 speed transmission. And if they need it, supercharged or turbocharged with 500 horsepower..

Sal, I never said the car was a failure... just that some aspects are out of place for the price range. Wasn't it YOU who said you were disappointed with the price once it was finally announced?

billc83
01-14-11, 09:23 PM
I can't say I'm ispired by the exterior styling. The profile is especially awkward. For $65K, I'd assume it would be more regal and distinctive. I'm liking the interior, though.

Jesda
01-14-11, 10:33 PM
Its aimed directly at today's Lexus -- people whose vision is so far gone that the styling of their car matters little. One could then argue that maybe they shouldn't be driving. :)

thebigjimsho
01-15-11, 12:41 AM
I can't say I'm ispired by the exterior styling. The profile is especially awkward. For $65K, I'd assume it would be more regal and distinctive. I'm liking the interior, though.


Its aimed directly at today's Lexus -- people whose vision is so far gone that the styling of their car matters little. One could then argue that maybe they shouldn't be driving. :)
It is aimed directly at Lexus, no doubt. And the styling is certainly bolder in person than the Lexus. As have driven the Lexus, I can say it does what it was intended to very well. And except for the brakes, it's more fun to drive than a Town Car so that would be nice.

I do wish the Equus came out in a more bare bones version for under $50G...

hueterm
01-15-11, 12:46 AM
I'd just get a decked Genesis for $42K MSRP...

Playdrv4me
01-15-11, 03:47 AM
I'd just get a decked Genesis for $42K MSRP...

I think I'd agree with that. You can get the Lexicon audio system, RWD and the same Tau V8 there with a sacrifice in some size of course. But with 42k MSRP, being out the door under 40 is probably not terribly difficult, and that seems like more of a bargain.

Jesda
01-15-11, 05:11 AM
I'm sure once the new wears off livery fleets will get them for pennies.

thebigjimsho
01-15-11, 10:16 AM
I'm sure once the new wears off livery fleets will get them for pennies.
Maybe. That would be nice. But while their warranty is pretty awesome, I'd wish for a shorter term and more miles in trade. Like the TC's 3/150,000

OffThaHorseCEO
01-15-11, 04:23 PM
Most people think this car is a fail. I think it's a win. Let's revisit this discussion a year or two from now and see who's right.

Also keep in mind that this car has been selling in South Korea for 2 or 3 years now. The second generation is already close to finished and will be available here in a few years along with 430 horsepower and an 8 speed transmission. And if they need it, supercharged or turbocharged with 500 horsepower..

ive seen threads all over the place (not just these forums) where people are bashing cadillacs. someone will come in and say that cadillac has this or that planned, or this and that being released soon. everyone will jump down that persons throat and say it doesnt matter whats being released soon, its whats here now that matters.

how is it ok to talk about hyundais planned cars?

ben.gators
01-15-11, 06:23 PM
^
I have the same feeling too... It is awhile that people (in this forum or other car forums) are just appreciating Hyundai, no matter how original the design is, how much the price tag is, how much reliable the car will be, and as a used car how well the car will hold its value in the future...

It sounds like Hyundai is going to be like Toyota, and we will have highly popular mythes about how great these cars are.... But the sad point is this time, it is happening inside the communities of car enthusiasts....

I had a similar discussion in another thread about Equus with one of Hyundai Equus lovers. He was saying he will choose Equus over MB, BMW and Lexus, since it is such a great car. I asked this simple question:

Do you ever have had any first hand experience with Equus or even genesis? How do you know that these cars are that much great? How do you know about reliability of these cars as a new or used car?

And to this date, I am still waiting to his response! :D

orconn
01-15-11, 07:18 PM
^^^ Way to go, Ben! There is to much insight coming from those with limited or no hands on knowledge of the Equus. Let's just wait and see how this new model really is when we can sit in it and drive it .. I hope its' as good as people say it will be, but I reserve my own opinion till I have a chance to try one out in person.

billc83
01-15-11, 08:30 PM
...it doesnt matter whats being released soon, its whats here now that matters.

how is it ok to talk about hyundais planned cars?

That is a flawed mentality. As automotive enthusiasts, a soon-to-be released car could affect our buying decisions. Not to mention the long-term viability of automotive brands relies on what's coming out tomorrow.

We are well within our rights to discuss a soon-to-be released car, and speculate on how it will perform in the market. Hell, it be downright wrong if we didn't.

Aron9000
01-16-11, 04:32 AM
^Agreed.

And I see the Equus going the same way as the VW Phaeton. Nobody is going to lay out that type of cash for a Hyundia, just as nobody wanted a VW in that price range. Both the Phaeton and Equus are really nice luxury cars, but neither of them brought anything revolutionary to the luxury car field.

If you want to know why Lexus is in the enviable position it is today, its the 1990 LS400. That car was a game changer in its luxury features, driving dynamics, dealership experience, price, and over the long term rock solid reliability.

I don't see the Equus trumping anything on the market right now in terms of it being a better car. Its sold as all Hyundias have been sold in recent years, a nice car with a great warranty for a lot less $$$ than you pay elsewhere. Once you get above about 60k, consumers are a lot less price conscious. Hence why BMW, Audi, and Benz can still charge 10-20k more than a Lexus LS460

Playdrv4me
01-16-11, 05:20 PM
^Agreed.

And I see the Equus going the same way as the VW Phaeton. Nobody is going to lay out that type of cash for a hyundai, just as nobody wanted a VW in that price range. Both the Phaeton and Equus are really nice luxury cars, but neither of them brought anything revolutionary to the luxury car field.

If you want to know why Lexus is in the enviable position it is today, its the 1990 LS400. That car was a game changer in its luxury features, driving dynamics, dealership experience, price, and over the long term rock solid reliability.

I don't see the Equus trumping anything on the market right now in terms of it being a better car. Its sold as all hyundais have been sold in recent years, a nice car with a great warranty for a lot less $$$ than you pay elsewhere. Once you get above about 60k, consumers are a lot less price conscious. Hence why BMW, Audi, and Benz can still charge 10-20k more than a Lexus LS460


And really, therein lies the problem, right? When the LS400 was initially introduced, it was 20-30k less than anything even close in that relative category. Toyota wisely placed low hanging fruit for bargain shoppers to whet the appetite of the American public, knowing they would dramatically raise the price of the car each successive year, and by then the media, and car buyers would already be ensnared. By contrast, the Equus does not represent this kind of "gangbusters" bargain over the LS460... To only save 10,000.00 over a comparatively equipped LS460 (leave the LS600hL out of it, it has nothing to do with this discussion so it's 100k price tag is of little importance) when I'm the kind of person that can afford to spend 60 large in the first place, I'm not really gonna take chances on the unproven car with likely poor future resale unless I *REALLY* hate Lexus or the LS460 (and granted, some do).

orconn
01-16-11, 05:32 PM
Back in the beginning of our discussion of the new Hyundai Equus there were several who voiced an opinion that Equus would have to be priced considerably lower than a Lexus, Mercedes or BMW. Even with the rich array of accessories that the new Equus brings, I believe Hyundai has priced this car so high as to make it a "bargain" when one takes into account "pride of ownership" and potential (far from pr oven) resale value.

I think it will be a tough go for the Equus in the current marketplace, unless the price of the car is adjusted. Unfortunately, the lowering of the price after its' initial introduction may be interpreted as the sign of an inferior product by buyers qualified to buy cars in the market segment.

thebigjimsho
01-16-11, 06:45 PM
And really, therein lies the problem, right? When the LS400 was initially introduced, it was 20-30k less than anything even close in that relative category. Toyota wisely placed low hanging fruit for bargain shoppers to whet the appetite of the American public, knowing they would dramatically raise the price of the car each successive year, and by then the media, and car buyers would already be ensnared. By contrast, the Equus does not represent this kind of "gangbusters" bargain over the LS460... To only save 10,000.00 over a comparatively equipped LS460 (leave the LS600hL out of it, it has nothing to do with this discussion so it's 100k price tag is of little importance) when I'm the kind of person that can afford to spend 60 large in the first place, I'm not really gonna take chances on the unproven car with likely poor future resale unless I *REALLY* hate Lexus or the LS460 (and granted, some do).
You are ignoring the numbers again. The Equus' base price is in the upper $50Gs. The model in the ebay ad is NOT base. Anything with the Executive Package feature(whatever it's called) that has the center stack is going to spike the price. Again, an LS460L, not the LS600hL, can top $100G with that package. Base to base, the Equus is about $14G cheaper with more standard options.

C&D gave them about equal scores not including the price value. And the Equus has a much better warranty. If they advertise it right, I bet it will be just fine...

thebigjimsho
01-16-11, 06:55 PM
^Agreed.

And I see the Equus going the same way as the VW Phaeton. Nobody is going to lay out that type of cash for a hyundai, just as nobody wanted a VW in that price range. Both the Phaeton and Equus are really nice luxury cars, but neither of them brought anything revolutionary to the luxury car field.

If you want to know why Lexus is in the enviable position it is today, its the 1990 LS400. That car was a game changer in its luxury features, driving dynamics, dealership experience, price, and over the long term rock solid reliability.

I don't see the Equus trumping anything on the market right now in terms of it being a better car. Its sold as all hyundais have been sold in recent years, a nice car with a great warranty for a lot less $$$ than you pay elsewhere. Once you get above about 60k, consumers are a lot less price conscious. Hence why BMW, Audi, and Benz can still charge 10-20k more than a Lexus LS460
The Phaeton and Equus are not even close in comparison. The Phaeton was 90% of an Audi A8(the car it was based on) for 90% of the price. It made no sense fundamentally. The Equus is 95% of the LS460L for about 70-80% of the price.

As for consumers and price-consciousness, I disagree. The luxury car segment hasn't had the sale numbers it has had in the past. The upper classes will always buy luxury cars, but for the upper middle and middle classes, this car should be an interesting option.

Jesda
01-16-11, 07:05 PM
The price being a bit lower than Lexus is made up for by heavier depreciation.

Stingroo
01-16-11, 07:22 PM
Maybe our definitions of "middle class" differ - but I don't know any middle class families willing to drop 60k on a sedan.

Playdrv4me
01-16-11, 07:30 PM
You are ignoring the numbers again. The Equus' base price is in the upper $50Gs. The model in the ebay ad is NOT base. Anything with the Executive Package feature(whatever it's called) that has the center stack is going to spike the price. Again, an LS460L, not the LS600hL, can top $100G with that package. Base to base, the Equus is about $14G cheaper with more standard options.

C&D gave them about equal scores not including the price value. And the Equus has a much better warranty. If they advertise it right, I bet it will be just fine...

It doesn't matter for two reasons...

1. Perception. Regardless of how high you can top out an LS460, most LS460 buyers purchase total option packages in the 10k range. Not a top end car, but by no means a "base" car. I assure you, 75000.00 will get you the majority of what the Equus offers as the Lexus comes with a lot of it already standard now as well.

2. Rear seat. The majority of LS460 buyers are NOT the kind of buyers who give a rip about those rear seat amenities because they intend to drive the car and not be driven. I realize this is the majority of YOUR business, but for the average buyer, they are purchasing a luxury car to drive on a daily basis. As a result, as I mentioned before, feature for feature 75000.00 will get you nearly as many usable driving options in the Lexus as in the Equus. That's the problem, it doesn't matter how the chips fall on the technicalities... the bottom line is a loaded Equus is 65000.00, and for 10k more I can have a MODERATELY equipped LS460... I can tell you right now, most people won't care about the loss of a FEW features to have the Lexus brand name. As Jesda mentioned, the depreciation hit on the Equus will also have a dramatic impact.

While I want the car to succeed, the majority of buyers who are intending to own the car as a driver, are going to see the LS460 as a 10k upgrade over the Equus based upon the configurations I am seeing. There's even a percentage who I could see cross shopping the "loaded" Equus and the base LS460 as they are priced tantalizingly close together. For those who still want to load up the 460 with some options, 10k just isn't enough of a differentiation. Unfortunately, with the Genesis topping out at 42... I am not really sure where else Hyundai can go on pricing with this one.

orconn
01-16-11, 07:55 PM
I have to agree with Playdrive on this one; all that back seat crappola may be appealing in a market where a full time personal driver is an affordable option, but that market is not the U.S. If one can afford a full time drive, you can afford to go higher on the prestige food chain than a Hyundai.

I just can't imagine a top 100 law firm partner (chauffeur driven) pulling up for a meeting with the CEO $10 to $50 million a year in a Hyundai, regardless how fancy the back seat was. The firms that I am aware of did use Lincoln Town Cars primarily because they were big, comfortable, American and CHEAP! (so they didn't get their clients' nose too far out of joint.

As for the upper middle income, a Hyundai, regardless of what you call it, doesn't say "I've made it" like the other marques in the general price vicinity. Cadillac could sell a similarly fitted out luxury sedan for the same kind of money .... if they had the interiors made in China and installed here ...... or even the whole car made in China and just shipped over to the Port of Los Angeles.

93DevilleUSMC
01-16-11, 08:15 PM
The design is nothing horrible, but it's nothing great either. We'll see whether this will draw Lexus buyers.

thebigjimsho
01-16-11, 08:58 PM
It doesn't matter for two reasons...

1. Perception. Regardless of how high you can top out an LS460, most LS460 buyers purchase total option packages in the 10k range. Not a top end car, but by no means a "base" car. I assure you, 75000.00 will get you the majority of what the Equus offers as the Lexus comes with a lot of it already standard now as well.

2. Rear seat. The majority of LS460 buyers are NOT the kind of buyers who give a rip about those rear seat amenities because they intend to drive the car and not be driven. I realize this is the majority of YOUR business, but for the average buyer, they are purchasing a luxury car to drive on a daily basis. As a result, as I mentioned before, feature for feature 75000.00 will get you nearly as many usable driving options in the Lexus as in the Equus. That's the problem, it doesn't matter how the chips fall on the technicalities... the bottom line is a loaded Equus is 65000.00, and for 10k more I can have a MODERATELY equipped LS460... I can tell you right now, most people won't care about the loss of a FEW features to have the Lexus brand name. As Jesda mentioned, the depreciation hit on the Equus will also have a dramatic impact.

While I want the car to succeed, the majority of buyers who are intending to own the car as a driver, are going to see the LS460 as a 10k upgrade over the Equus based upon the configurations I am seeing. There's even a percentage who I could see cross shopping the "loaded" Equus and the base LS460 as they are priced tantalizingly close together. For those who still want to load up the 460 with some options, 10k just isn't enough of a differentiation. Unfortunately, with the Genesis topping out at 42... I am not really sure where else Hyundai can go on pricing with this one.


I have to agree with Playdrive on this one; all that back seat crappola may be appealing in a market where a full time personal driver is an affordable option, but that market is not the U.S. If one can afford a full time drive, you can afford to go higher on the prestige food chain than a Hyundai.

I just can't imagine a top 100 law firm partner (chauffeur driven) pulling up for a meeting with the CEO $10 to $50 million a year in a Hyundai, regardless how fancy the back seat was. The firms that I am aware of did use Lincoln Town Cars primarily because they were big, comfortable, American and CHEAP! (so they didn't get their clients' nose too far out of joint.

As for the upper middle income, a Hyundai, regardless of what you call it, doesn't say "I've made it" like the other marques in the general price vicinity. Cadillac could sell a similarly fitted out luxury sedan for the same kind of money .... if they had the interiors made in China and installed here ...... or even the whole car made in China and just shipped over to the Port of Los Angeles.
Exactly! Most won't care about back seat amenities. So then why compare the Equus in this ebay ad that has those rear seat amenities when you can get one much cheaper and still well equipped?

And as for the Town Car, baby boomers have looked for something a little more modern as the sales have dropped. This Equus fits in nicely in that niche as well. The Town Car would've been dead much before now if it weren't for those that enjoyed cheap luxury...

Aron9000
01-17-11, 01:24 AM
.... if they had the interiors made in China and installed here ...... or even the whole car made in China and just shipped over to the Port of Los Angeles.

Speaking of Chinese Cadillacs, did you know they make nicer stuff for that market than here? The China only, long wheelbase SLS, built Shanghi. Really sad commentary on the state of American industry when a Cadillac built in China is better than a similar Cadillac built in the USA.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/11/more-on-chinas-cadillac-sls/

ben.gators
01-17-11, 02:24 AM
^
I guess the partial reason is the scope of operation of stupid politicians in restricting engine size and power and the size of car is USA!

Playdrv4me
01-17-11, 03:06 AM
Exactly! Most won't care about back seat amenities. So then why compare the Equus in this ebay ad that has those rear seat amenities when you can get one much cheaper and still well equipped?

And as for the Town Car, baby boomers have looked for something a little more modern as the sales have dropped. This Equus fits in nicely in that niche as well. The Town Car would've been dead much before now if it weren't for those that enjoyed cheap luxury...

Even if we simplify things and just compare Equus Signature (base trim) and LS460 Base trim we are talking even LESS of a price desparity between the two. 2011 MSRP for the Equus Signature is 58000.00 even, which is actually more than I thought... whilst the base 2011 LS460 is 66,230.00. Throw in Nav for $965.00 (what a ridiculously cheap ass move by Lexus) and the total rises to 68k with destination. That is not enough of a price gap in my honest opinion despite some extras Hyundai manages to toss in. Keep in mind that I am not by any means propping up or defending the LS, I am just saying that the sweet spot on price for this thing should have been just 8-10k less.... perhaps 50k Signature and 60k Ultimate. That would be a traditional Hyundai style bargain. And now that I look at it, that's still 6000.00 higher than a maxed out Genesis so competition there wouldn't be so much of a problem.

This from a company mind you, that didn't even bother creating a separate brand at least under which to demand this kind of money.

thebigjimsho
01-17-11, 01:43 PM
It doesn't matter.

Playdrv4me
01-17-11, 02:38 PM
Turtles.

thebigjimsho
01-18-11, 03:55 PM
They peep, you know...

Lord Cadillac
01-18-11, 04:05 PM
I saw my first Equus on the road a couple of days ago and it definitely has presence.....

Lord Cadillac
01-18-11, 04:16 PM
Am I the only one who notices that this car screams early-2000's Buick? Especially that interior! It's pretty much what I expected for Hyundai...it's nice, for a Hyundai.

The car's shortcomings, combined with its ambitious price, will lead to another short lived endeavor. Remember the XG? Same result.

I don't think it looks anything like an early 2000's Buick inside. What Buick had an interior as nice as the Equus'? The Park Avenue?! In any event, the XG became the Azera.. It didn't go away, it just got a name change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_XG

The new 2012 "XG" is quite nice...


Sal, I never said the car was a failure... just that some aspects are out of place for the price range. Wasn't it YOU who said you were disappointed with the price once it was finally announced?

This car would have sold a LOT more if the price was $5k less...


ive seen threads all over the place (not just these forums) where people are bashing cadillacs. someone will come in and say that cadillac has this or that planned, or this and that being released soon. everyone will jump down that persons throat and say it doesnt matter whats being released soon, its whats here now that matters.

how is it ok to talk about hyundais planned cars?

What's coming is definitely important. Most of the time with Cadillac, what's coming never actually comes (the flagship on several occasions, ultra v8, etc.).


It doesn't matter for two reasons...

2. Rear seat. The majority of LS460 buyers are NOT the kind of buyers who give a rip about those rear seat amenities because they intend to drive the car and not be driven. I realize this is the majority of YOUR business, but for the average buyer, they are purchasing a luxury car to drive on a daily basis. As a result, as I mentioned before, feature for feature 75000.00 will get you nearly as many usable driving options in the Lexus as in the Equus. That's the problem, it doesn't matter how the chips fall on the technicalities... the bottom line is a loaded Equus is 65000.00, and for 10k more I can have a MODERATELY equipped LS460... I can tell you right now, most people won't care about the loss of a FEW features to have the Lexus brand name. As Jesda mentioned, the depreciation hit on the Equus will also have a dramatic impact.

While I want the car to succeed, the majority of buyers who are intending to own the car as a driver, are going to see the LS460 as a 10k upgrade over the Equus based upon the configurations I am seeing. There's even a percentage who I could see cross shopping the "loaded" Equus and the base LS460 as they are priced tantalizingly close together. For those who still want to load up the 460 with some options, 10k just isn't enough of a differentiation. Unfortunately, with the Genesis topping out at 42... I am not really sure where else Hyundai can go on pricing with this one.

I definitely disagree with #2.. The rear seat is important to people who drive cars like these because they're at LEAST partially intended for passengers. If they didn't care about their passengers, they could drive a much less expensive car that offered better "driving" dynamics.. To me and many others, it's very important that our passengers be comfortable.. If I ever buy another Lexus LS, it will mainly be for my passengers.

Jesda
01-18-11, 04:46 PM
From its large size and indistinct shape you can definitely tell that its big and potentially expensive, but that's basically the end of it. I guess Jim was right -- it took a Korean to replace the Town Car.

Eventually, this recession will end and America will go back to being competitive and proud. Right now, some people are afraid of showing off and offending others but still want the comfort and joy of luxury, so Buick and Hyundai have a bit of room to grow. In the long run, the market for a generically styled, bottom-badged luxury car will fade as higher incomes will enable people to confidently display their earnings through the ownership of goods with prestigious names. Hyundai will eventually need its own luxury brand.

So.. will Cadillac be ready with products for the turnaround?

Playdrv4me
01-18-11, 04:54 PM
I don't think it looks anything like an early 2000's Buick inside. What Buick had an interior as nice as the Equus'? The Park Avenue?! In any event, the XG became the Azera.. It didn't go away, it just got a name change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_XG

The new 2012 "XG" is quite nice...



This car would have sold a LOT more if the price was $5k less...



What's coming is definitely important. Most of the time with Cadillac, what's coming never actually comes (the flagship on several occasions, ultra v8, etc.).



I definitely disagree with #2.. The rear seat is important to people who drive cars like these because they're at LEAST partially intended for passengers. If they didn't care about their passengers, they could drive a much less expensive car that offered better "driving" dynamics.. To me and many others, it's very important that our passengers be comfortable.. If I ever buy another Lexus LS, it will mainly be for my passengers.

I dunno, at most I'd say there are possibly two distinctly different camps on the rear seat issue. I buy large cars because I want the extra space for ME, and cars that are designed with rear-seat passengers in mind, also just happen to be some of the best and largest cars to drive from the front seat. At most I will usually have a person in the passenger seat, but use of my rear seats is very rare, even in my very large SUVs. I can definitely see how in the livery business, or particularly for Realtors, having rear seat amenities would be very useful. But for the average 60 year old looking for a big comfortable luxury sedan, and debating between a maxed out Hyundai with a bunch of toys in the backseat, and a moderately equipped LS460 with everything he needs up front, I think his choice *at this price point* will still be the Lexus.

I also noticed that those rear seat features are in-fact all that separates the Signature from the Ultimate, so even the Signature model at 58k will have a tough time competing against the moderately equipped Base LS plus Nav at 67k. If one however DEMANDS the rear seat amenities, then yea, it would ironically be the Ultimate that is the bargain compared to an LS460 with all that stuff back there.

Jesda
01-18-11, 05:01 PM
If you look at the Motor Trend thread, they evaluated the Panamera as being the best to drive but cramped for passengers, while the Lexus was the most comfortable for rear passengers and least interesting to drive.

Lord Cadillac
01-18-11, 08:43 PM
From its large size and indistinct shape you can definitely tell that its big and potentially expensive, but that's basically the end of it. I guess Jim was right -- it took a Korean to replace the Town Car.

Eventually, this recession will end and America will go back to being competitive and proud. Right now, some people are afraid of showing off and offending others but still want the comfort and joy of luxury, so Buick and Hyundai have a bit of room to grow. In the long run, the market for a generically styled, bottom-badged luxury car will fade as higher incomes will enable people to confidently display their earnings through the ownership of goods with prestigious names. Hyundai will eventually need its own luxury brand.

So.. will Cadillac be ready with products for the turnaround?

By the time the recession ends, the Equus will be sold under a luxury badge and possibly be named differently anyway. Most people will never know it's "Hyundai" like most people still dont realize Lexus is Toyota...

I remember taking home my LS430 years ago and a female acquaintance of mine was very impressed - especially when riding as a back seat passenger. Her jealous boyfriend told her it was "just a Toyota" and she completely lost respect for it. Most people have no idea.. And most people just don't get that luxury is what luxury is - no matter what it's "named". If it looks like luxury and feels like luxury, it's luxury. Who cares who makes it?

Otherwise.... I think Cadillac will be in a much better position when this time comes.. Right now they're making a billion gazillion sales on Bazooka bubble gum priced automobiles and will take that revenue and turn things around. Either they will do this, or they will cease to exist. I have a feeling they're going to stick around...


I dunno, at most I'd say there are possibly two distinctly different camps on the rear seat issue. I buy large cars because I want the extra space for ME, and cars that are designed with rear-seat passengers in mind, also just happen to be some of the best and largest cars to drive from the front seat. At most I will usually have a person in the passenger seat, but use of my rear seats is very rare, even in my very large SUVs. I can definitely see how in the livery business, or particularly for Realtors, having rear seat amenities would be very useful. But for the average 60 year old looking for a big comfortable luxury sedan, and debating between a maxed out Hyundai with a bunch of toys in the backseat, and a moderately equipped LS460 with everything he needs up front, I think his choice *at this price point* will still be the Lexus.

I also noticed that those rear seat features are in-fact all that separates the Signature from the Ultimate, so even the Signature model at 58k will have a tough time competing against the moderately equipped Base LS plus Nav at 67k. If one however DEMANDS the rear seat amenities, then yea, it would ironically be the Ultimate that is the bargain compared to an LS460 with all that stuff back there.

I totally agree that the price is too close to the Lexus LS and most people who can afford the Equus will just take the LS460. I know I would. Only someone who wants to be "different" and have something unique will buy the Equus. Or maybe the few people who just can't afford a few thousand dollars over the course of a 3-4 year loan.

Stingroo
01-18-11, 09:43 PM
And with financing - that's nobody.

hueterm
01-18-11, 09:56 PM
The market will correct itself, and the Equus will go for much less than what is on the sticker -- where LSs are usually pretty firm.