: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V



GizmoQ
12-29-10, 08:25 PM
Today is the first day of Mod Hell for me. I just dropped off my car at Stiegmeier Porting Services for their Snake Bite mod.
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/Snake%20Bite/steigmeiersnakebite00560x48-1.jpg

The guys over on the STS-V forum have been talking about this mod for over a year, but as far as I know only one of them has tried it and only to the blower. (Coach123 correct me if I'm wrong). Bob Stiegmeier, the owner wants to prove this concept on my car and market it to the XLR-V/STS-V communities so I'm sure they'll be chiming in as the mod progresses.

For those not familiar with the Snake Bite, its basically porting, polishing and port matching everything from the intake to the throttlebody and flow matching the injectors to the increased boost. Included with that is a PatentPending gear drive system to increase boost by 50% and also produces quicker boost rise with no belt slip.

From their website:
Stiegemeier Engine Air Flow moves forward with a new development of the LOUDEST most Powerful ported Eaton Supercharger to date. With Extreme Performance and Torque the SNAKE BITE tm upgrade gives you a 50% increase in boost with stock pulleys. Boost is instant and sticks up high with normal belt tension. For those who love the loud sound of a Stiegemeier ported blower - you are in luck - the SNAKE BITE tm screams at a powerful level. I would give it a solid 30% increase. Return your engine to stock appearance for that sleeper image & collectabilty!

I told Bob several times already that this group thrives on hard number: track slips and back to back dyno runs. So to generate more NorthStar business, he'll be doing several dyno runs: stock, D3 Intake, Snake Bite, hiflo cats, etc. He seems to think 500RWHP should be easy. My goal is 575HP at the wheels so I am holding out for Jesse at Wait4Me to get me there.

I read over in the STS-V forum that the stock injectors are 42lbs on these engines, can anyone verify that for me?

Wish me luck, I'll post more as I get it.

coach123
12-29-10, 10:11 PM
Yes the injectors are 42lb injectors. When I ported my blower and had it tuned I went with Siemens 60lb injectors. If you use meth injection you might be able to get away with the 42lb injectors. Please keep us informed. When does Bob expect to be finished with your car?

coach123
12-29-10, 10:14 PM
Let me know if you need additional information about the engines or anything else. I can always give Bob a call as well if needed. I have been wanting to see the results with the cats removed as well as with high flow cats. Depending on the outcome this will be my next mod. See if Bob can take a more detailed look at the Y of the air intake and throttle body to see if that is a major restriction point on the front side of the engine.

GizmoQ
12-29-10, 10:51 PM
Yes the injectors are 42lb injectors. When I ported my blower and had it tuned I went with Siemens 60lb injectors. If you use meth injection you might be able to get away with the 42lb injectors. Please keep us informed. When does Bob expect to be finished with your car?


Thanks, Coach123, I'll pass those numbers on to Bob tomorrow.

As far as a finish date, I told Bob, I didn't need it till 18 Feb when, weather permitting, I'll be heading up to the CadillacOwners.Com GetTogether at the Chicago Auto Show (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/great-lakes/217216-chicago-auto-show-february-11-20-a.html). So I'm really in no hurry.

I'm on the fence when it comes to Meth/Water injection. I intend to put 30-40,000 miles on the car next year, mostly just highway cruising. Refilling the Washer fluid reservoir everytime I fill up sounds like a PITA. I was on the phone with Snow Performance for an hour while he tried to educate me on all the benefits. I'm just not convinced, this is a NorthStar and the last thing I need is headbolts backing out.

550HP STSV
12-30-10, 04:06 PM
subscribed

coach123
12-30-10, 05:38 PM
From everything I have read GM engineers fixed the dreaded head bolt problem in 2004 or 2005 but you never know. There hasn't been enough people modify these engines to really know what type of long term issues might arise. I know that GM did a lot of work beefing up all the internal engine parts to make way for forced induction so I'm sure there is an engineering margin on the plus side.

I have debated the meth injection but have yet to pull the trigger. I don't know if I will or not since I upgraded the heat exchanger. I would really like a tuner to tell me if it's worth it or not based on whether the PCM is actually pulling timing when ran hard.

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 10:15 AM
Hey guys....Kyle here. I'll be posting up all of the data on Gizmo's XLR-V. Im going to try and get the stock RWHP numbers today.

GizmoQ
12-31-10, 11:26 AM
Hey guys....Kyle here. I'll be posting up all of the data on Gizmo's XLR-V. Im going to try and get the stock RWHP numbers today.

Just to keep everyone up to speed, Kyle is the marketing manager at Stiegmeier Porting Services. A self-proclaimed gearhead, computer geek, he volunteered to sign up here and provide updates on the work as it occurs - turn this thread into a build log. Thanks Kyle for joining.

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the intro Giz! Its almost game time :cool2:

GizmoQ
12-31-10, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the intro Giz! Its almost game time :cool2:

I just saw your profile and fell over laughing at what you have for your "Car I Drive"
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/Snake%20Bite/kylesprofile.jpg

Then it dawned on me....hey, that's my baby! :hmm:

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 05:03 PM
Hehehehehe! First Video is up. Your XLR-V is strapped to the Dyno. Be back after while :sneaky:

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 05:03 PM
Oh yeah, the D3 intake looks real nice!

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 05:04 PM
Cant wait to get the blower ported!

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 07:17 PM
Video Number one ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqCuVkH95Ek

Turbo Kyle
12-31-10, 07:31 PM
Dyno Run Video.

First Run 100% Stock XLR-V

Second Run we added the D3 CAI System. It looks really nice :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01tWewI5tnM

coach123
01-03-11, 09:06 AM
Turbo Kyle... Wow I can't wait to here your results. I'm glad that everyone at the shop has dedicated some time to getting some real power from these engines. Being the first ever Snakebite on a cadillac LC3 engine I obviously have an interest to see what other mods are required to increase the power level. My snakebite blower achieves a consistent 16lbs of boost.

Some of the areas that might pose the biggest restrictions are the TB, rear Y of air intake, intercooler, exhaust manifolds. If the XLR-V doesn't have an exhaust that would be one thing to look at as well. The XLR-V due to intake and exhaust restriction produces 26hp and 25tq less than it's counterpart the STS-V. What tuning software will you guys at the shop be using?

Turbo Kyle
01-03-11, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the info Coach. Here is the before after numbers with the Intake. We got about a pound of extra boost as you can see its a little leaner with the CAI. This put the AFRs in a better place.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/Giz.jpg

Turbo Kyle
01-04-11, 04:33 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/211_1317.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/211_1323.jpg

coach123
01-04-11, 06:32 PM
Turbokyle... Please let us know if you end up doing port matching. This was something I had wanted to do but unfortunately my heads were not shipped to your shop for you guys to work on. If you end up doing it please tell us the gains anticipated since its a PITA to get the blower off the car. Thanks

Great pics by the way.

Turbo Kyle
01-10-11, 01:33 PM
Will do coach. We dont plan on taking the heads off if thats what your asking.

Turbo Kyle
01-10-11, 05:36 PM
Flow Testing on the TB and Inlet Tube :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwJNvKRiP-8

Turbo Kyle
01-12-11, 12:59 PM
All ported and getting put back together.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/XLRVcaseported.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/XLR-PandB.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/PlenumXLR.jpg

PGA2B
01-12-11, 01:09 PM
Can't wait to see your numbers!!

Turbo Kyle
01-12-11, 08:23 PM
I'm excited myself.

coach123
01-13-11, 12:07 AM
Kyle - What stage porting are you doing on the blower?

550HP STSV
01-17-11, 01:11 PM
subscribed

coach123
01-18-11, 09:42 AM
Any updates? It has been a few days since the porting was completed.

LITTLEELVISDAN
01-24-11, 11:09 PM
Inquiring STS-V guys Are patiently waiting to see some good things. Any updates?

GizmoQ
01-24-11, 11:31 PM
The snow and the cold have slowed our progress. For example, this morning we had freezing fog causing 167 accidents in the St Louis area during rush hour; three snow days for the schools in the last two weeks; and as soon as one snow fall starts to melt, it snows again. I'm not concerned. The guys at Stiegemeier should have it back together by the end of the week. My deadline was the second week of Feb, so we're still on target.

Hell, I'm working on exterior and interior mods and getting nowhere fast cause the weather is so depressing.

Anybody know where I can get a set of aftermarket paddle shifters?

PGA2B
01-25-11, 10:21 AM
Sent you an email.

550HP STSV
02-01-11, 04:10 PM
bump?

1madstsv
02-02-11, 08:39 AM
Any word on when you will have this finished. I have time at the end of the month to send my blower out but im waiting on dyno results. Keep us posted. Thanks Ryan

PGA2B
02-02-11, 10:17 AM
Well, We just got HAMMERED with a Blizzard so I doubt they are even in the office today. I got 16" in KC yesterday and last night. St. Louis got lots of freezing rain and snow.

1madstsv
02-02-11, 11:32 AM
I know I drove though mo right be for they closed the highway I'm in Lexington ky now. Ryan

Turbo Kyle
02-07-11, 07:26 PM
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7_i1N69_yk

GizmoQ
02-07-11, 09:01 PM
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7_i1N69_yk

Why do I feel like I just watched an expensive SuperBowl commercial?? hehe

:thumbsup:

Turbo Kyle
02-08-11, 12:13 PM
Hehehehe!

Turbo Kyle
02-08-11, 12:55 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/v8turbogmc/MeXLR8.jpg

coach123
02-11-11, 11:07 AM
Gizmo.. Will you be having Wait4Me tune the car before throwing it on the dyno?

Kael
02-11-11, 11:23 AM
the skull sticker.. where did you get the skull sticker!!

GizmoQ
02-11-11, 06:10 PM
Gizmo.. Will you be having Wait4Me tune the car before throwing it on the dyno?

Yes. There's a lot involved in actually setting up the car/computers/engine components before being able to use all this extra power. Took my first ride today and it definitely spools faster and louder - I likey! I'll be dropping it off with Jesse on the 20th, so we should have some preliminary numbers by that Wednesday or Thursday.


the skull sticker.. where did you get the skull sticker!!
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/JAKE/Jakeskull033.jpg
That old thing....It was a collaboration between 8thDayCreations and I. He already was selling the skull in a round circle, I just had him shape/size it for my crest on the front, back, and steering wheel but replaced the regular eyes he had with the "Jake" flags off the vette. Since XLRs have vette suspensions and CTS-V has the vette motor, he went ahead and setup templates for both vehicles.

Now I need to figure out how to make reference to being Snake Bit? What do you guys think.
This:
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/JAKE/snakebitskull.jpg

Or maybe this:
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/Cars_Logos_-_Cadillac_V_-_Seriessnakebit4.jpg

or better yet something like this (I like this concept best):
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/v-whitesnakebit9b.jpg

1madstsv
02-11-11, 07:33 PM
I like them all butt go with the first one the cobra makes me think ford and a Cadillac is not a ford. The last one maby you can get a way with. But not the one with the cobra on it. Ps be careful driving that at all if you don't have it tuned that could turn out very bad I don't drive my car at all after any major mods like added boost/cam/heads/. I had my turbo camaro tuned for 9psi on a hot day two nights later It was colder and the car made more boost up to 12psi and that was all it took under 3/4 pull and $2,000 it was fixed. So be careful. But can't wate to see # up. Ryan

Turbo Kyle
02-12-11, 12:05 AM
I was driving Giz today. The car runs and drives fine (1/3 pedal from 60 to 115 MPH) no ill effects, no CEL ect. Extra blower wine from the Snake Bite and CAI :D

PGA2B
02-12-11, 09:41 PM
Kyle- Wait til Jesse gets a hold of it and unlocks the new power you guys put in it......... The Factory Tune really restricts things like the blower actuator, Torque Management, Transmission settings, Dive By Wire Throttle response, Power Enrichment, blower ramp rates, ETC...............................

coach123
02-13-11, 05:43 PM
I'm curious how things come out when Jesse tunes it. He collaborated with Vengeance on my tune but it's always better to have him right there during the tuning process. I would be interested to see the differences between your final tune and my tune. I believe Jesse always tunes in EFI first then converts to SCT so I could email him my tune to compare with yours. I did put 60lb injectors in though so that will change a few things.

I have been wanting to make it up to his shop but have never got around to it. Its a long drive and the winter weather doesn't do well for our cars. Keep us informed on the progress and good luck. Who knows maybe he can have a snakebite tune specifically for our cars if other members wanted to get the mod done.

GizmoQ
02-13-11, 10:24 PM
I'm curious how things come out when Jesse tunes it. He collaborated with Vengeance on my tune but it's always better to have him right there during the tuning process. I would be interested to see the differences between your final tune and my tune. I believe Jesse always tunes in EFI first then converts to SCT so I could email him my tune to compare with yours. I did put 60lb injectors in though so that will change a few things.

I have been wanting to make it up to his shop but have never got around to it. Its a long drive and the winter weather doesn't do well for our cars. Keep us informed on the progress and good luck. Who knows maybe he can have a snakebite tune specifically for our cars if other members wanted to get the mod done.

Looks like the weather is going to cooperate, so I'll be taking the XLR to the Chicago Auto Show and meet up with Sal (Lord Cadillac) and some forum members next weekend before jetting over to Wait4Me.

Turbo Kyle
02-14-11, 02:51 PM
Sounds good! Your Snake Bitten XLR-V will be waiting in the dyno room for you :D

Turbo Kyle
02-19-11, 10:57 PM
Looks like the weather is going to cooperate, so I'll be taking the XLR to the Chicago Auto Show and meet up with Sal (Lord Cadillac) and some forum members next weekend before jetting over to Wait4Me.

Cant wait to see how it does! Thanks again :thumbsup:

Stiegemeier
02-20-11, 03:46 AM
Awesome

PGA2B
02-22-11, 03:08 PM
So when is Jesse going to tune it?

GizmoQ
02-22-11, 04:17 PM
So when is Jesse going to tune it?

Hopefully tomorrow. There was 9" of snow in the last 36 hours on top of a half inch of ice. My car's not doing anything till tomorrow. I'm just hanging out in the hotel bar. I can wait a couple more days.

PGA2B
02-22-11, 04:20 PM
I'm just hanging out in the hotel bar.

Have a few for me then..........

GizmoQ
02-22-11, 04:40 PM
Have a few for me then..........

You got it!

PGA2B
02-25-11, 08:34 AM
Ok, What's up Giz?????

I saw your post in my neck of the woods.

GizmoQ
02-25-11, 11:55 AM
Quick update while I recover:

Snake Bite boost gains verified! HP increase is significant, but top end is still unknown. Need to go back to Wait4Me when he gets my bigger injectors. With current injectors, we jokingly decided I should have my rev limiter set at 5000RPM (:thehand: he realized right away I can't keep my foot out of it.)

VERIFIED: 430RWHP @ 4900rpm (Run aborted at 5000RPM) You do the math on 6800RPM redline. Tried two pulls and engine went lean at 5500RPM. Jesse told me he has another motor I can buy if I don't keep it under 5K till I get back.

Engine needs much, much, much bigger injectors, cooling for the high IAT, and more open exhaust to use it all.

Will go back to Jesse next month to try it again.

PGA2B
02-25-11, 12:19 PM
So with an intake, exhaust, upgraded Intercooler Radiator, Upgraded Injectors (Please post what size injector also......), and a good tune being the mods does Jesse think the Snake Bite is going to be safe on the rear end as long as we don't beat on it all day?

What about a 160* T-Stat? I know Jesse loves them.....

Looking forward to the results.........

I could see another 30-50RWHP with proper injectors and tuning, maybe even more.

Looks like the learning curve continues........................

GizmoQ
02-25-11, 12:47 PM
So with an intake, exhaust, upgraded Intercooler Radiator, Upgraded Injectors (Please post what size injector also......), and a good tune being the mods does Jesse think the Snake Bite is going to be safe on the rear end as long as we don't beat on it all day?

What about a 160* T-Stat? I know Jesse loves them.....

Looking forward to the results.........

Looks like the learning curve continues........................

Like he said in another thread, "Every engine is different." If he's concerned, so am I. I may have to invest in datalogging, but I won't be drag racing EVER! (fingers crossed). He mentioned a cooler T-Stat among several other things - I was on information overload by that time. I think his plan for me is 1)90lbs injectors, 2)bigger intercooler pump, 3)custom heat exchanger, 4)open up cats and exhaust. He recommended headers and nitrous, but I'm not ready to give up the comfort or trunk space.

I got 430rwhp and 479lbs torque at 4900RPM so engine and tranny both become issues when I get it all tuned in. I hope I'm not misquoting him, but the comment was something like, "about the second or third time you launch really hard - the rear end is going to crack like an eggshell." I guess I'm the guinea pig.

More to come next trip.

PGA2B
02-25-11, 12:51 PM
Oh GREAT!!!! I guess you can't launch hard then........ Get them from a dig..........:sneaky:

Man I wish we had a V2 rear end. I hate glass houses......

wait4me
02-25-11, 12:58 PM
Nice meeting you Giz. You are up 65RWHP over a stock one so far at just 4900 rpms, At that point the injectors hit 100% duty cycle and i could not adjust for fuel any higher in the rpms.
My estimate after cooling, exchanger, and larger injectors you will be at 530rwhp at 6800 rpms. As the hp was climbing very quickly. You hit 500RWT on the first run before temps went thru the roof. That is if the supercharger can maintain the 17psi it is putting out, up at that high of rpms..

Nitrous was just for cooling. Not to add any significant horsepower. 100 degree drop in inlet temps will help during the summer.

wait4me
02-25-11, 01:01 PM
Yes a 160 therm is definatly a good thing. Think of an oven. If you baking the stuff at 210 degrees, and then lower the oven down to 160-170, that is significant. Not only do sensors last longer, but you have a Little less heat soak on every thing under the hood.

PGA2B
02-25-11, 01:01 PM
Already answered by Jesse

PGA2B
02-25-11, 01:02 PM
Is there anything other than the fan temps that need to be changed in the tune for the T-Stat? Like any codes to turn off?

PGA2B
02-25-11, 02:10 PM
Come on Jesse..... Throw us a bone:worship:

1madstsv
02-25-11, 03:11 PM
Coach123 has the snake bite on his stsv he has 60s for fuel injectors and made 445rwhp479tq if I remember right. I'm hoping with the meth to not need biger injectors. Yet and with my cats out of the way I should be good to go if the fuel pump is up to it.

wait4me
02-25-11, 06:16 PM
Cam timing is needed to be modified to take advantage of the new found boost. It will let coach exceed that 445 mark.

As for what needs to be changed for the thermostat, it would be a few fuel learn values, like o2 settings and closed loop stuff, then you have to just delete one code for warm up stuff. It is pretty simple.

TimmyC
02-25-11, 08:39 PM
The XLR-V has the same 42lb injectors that the STS-V does, right? I'm surprised that they are maxed at only 430hp. Mine are at 86% at 400. You guys must be running a richer AFR than I was.

I am interested to see how the new injectors will idle. 90lb is pretty big.

TimmyC
02-25-11, 08:41 PM
Are there any HPtuners scans you can post?

wait4me
02-26-11, 10:05 AM
Timmy, it is the torque that is the fuel consumption issue. He was at over 500 for a breif amount of time that low. Before hp even became a factor...

TimmyC
02-26-11, 10:12 AM
Ah, I did not think about that. My torque was nowhere near that, 400 was my max.

You probably know what the connector and height on these injectors is, could you tell us?

Florian
02-26-11, 10:55 AM
Man I wish we had a V2 rear end. I hate glass houses......

This is the biggest obstacle in our Vs.


F

1madstsv
02-26-11, 11:01 AM
Still seams odd are we shore that it is not the fuel pump is maxed out. I had 42s in my camaro with a much bigger ci motor 6.0l with a gt67 turbo 10psi 498rwhp and 521rwtq over 400rwhp and 420rwtq at 2,800 rpm. Ran out of fuel then up graded fuel pump and the injectors were then only at 90% duty rate. So I'm just thinking that a 4.4l should be good to over 450rwhp and tq with 42s so I think it might be the fuel pump. Do we know.

wait4me
02-26-11, 12:27 PM
If fuel pressure does not drop then no fuel pump is needed yet.

1madstsv
02-26-11, 01:06 PM
So the fuel pump is ok up to 450ish rw so far. I will be runing meth on my snake bite supercharger when it is back on the car and I have no cats and x-pipe with magnaflow mufflers so their is not much else I can do on that end. Do you think the meth will take care of the fuel shortage yes yes I know that is playing with fire but it is the cheap fix for now.

wait4me
02-26-11, 06:14 PM
im never a fan of meth. Just do what it takes to do it right. Bandaids can always fall off and get dirt in the wound...

1madstsv
02-27-11, 09:21 AM
I'm going to have my injectors resized so fuel will not be the issue as long as the pump can keep up. I don't play with fuel if it wants more I will give it more but the fact remains my turbo 6.0l with more hp/tq ran good on 42s. And why do you not like meth if it is set up right I have never had any problems with it. Most all my friends have turbo our supercharged cars GNs/c6/c5/cobras all with meth and they have had no trouble at all and some of them over 700rwhp. Just wanted to see y you don't like it.

deadringer
02-27-11, 04:21 PM
Yes a 160 therm is definatly a good thing. Think of an oven. If you baking the stuff at 210 degrees, and then lower the oven down to 160-170, that is significant. Not only do sensors last longer, but you have a Little less heat soak on every thing under the hood.

Do you know of a 160deg t-stat for the N* - I could only find a 176! :banghead:

Is it a generic part maybe? :confused:

PGA2B
02-27-11, 07:32 PM
Mr. Gasket 6367

http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/mr-gasket-ls1-late-6367/

coach123
03-03-11, 01:41 PM
Gizmo and Jesse,

Just got back from Brazil and I see the car has already been tuned great job on the work done. I am curious what other mods you have done so far. I didn't get close to hitting 500rwtq on my pulls but it was the middle of summer in Atlanta so that did not help. Jesse I will be calling you tomorrow to discuss the tuning and to see what other things would benefit our cars for power and longevity. If you think this engine can be at 500rwhp and 500rwtq I guess I will need to schedule a special visit to your shop soon. I am surprised that 90lb injectors are needed.

Great work.

PGA2B
03-03-11, 03:23 PM
I am surprised that 90lb injectors are needed

I am anxious to see what the Injector size needs to be as 90lb sounds really big. But what do I know...... Jesse is the builder and knows what he will need. I just hope that is overkill. I was hoping to get away with either 60lb, 73lb, or 80lb Bosch Injectors.

deadringer
03-04-11, 10:29 AM
Mr. Gasket 6367

http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/mr-gasket-ls1-late-6367/

Awesome! I got it and already installed it... time for a retune for me

Thanks!

PGA2B
03-04-11, 10:43 AM
If you have a tuner Jesse explained what needs (earlier in the thread) to be done to keep you from setting a code. If not any tuner shop can do it for you.

deadringer
03-04-11, 10:57 AM
If you have a tuner Jesse explained what needs (earlier in the thread) to be done to keep you from setting a code. If not any tuner shop can do it for you.

Yes, yes... I've been a customer of Jesses since Feb 09... :)

PGA2B
03-04-11, 12:20 PM
He IS the Tunning Aficionado!

coach123
03-04-11, 04:02 PM
Looks like I will need to make a special trip up to Indiana and visit Jesse for a custom tune. It seems that my cam timing was never changed after my mods which is why my power levels are lower than expected. Jesse told me that over 500rwhp is possible with these cars it just needs to be tuned and possibly adding some cooling mods and a lower thermostat. Now I just need to find the time to get up that way now that the weather is starting to get better.

jedhead
03-04-11, 05:56 PM
The person that does my tune also changes the cam timing. A little more power can be had, but the PCM will only allow so much timing change before the check engine light is turned on and the cam timing is defaulted to static timing.

Bob

coach123
03-05-11, 03:49 PM
Good to know.. I finally had an issue that caused my car to go into limp mode. What a pain it is to drive in limp mode. It just got it out of the shop for some small nuisance type stuff and now back in the shop 1 day later. Very frustrating at this point.

1madstsv
03-22-11, 07:39 PM
Well I'm the third person now to have a snake bite supercharger on my car. Dyno time is april 1 at 5pm so we well see what I can make. Ryan

GizmoQ
03-22-11, 09:08 PM
Well I'm the third person now to have a snake bite supercharger on my car. Dyno time is april 1 at 5pm so we well see what I can make. Ryan

Welcome to the club. FireFox is back with Jesse. Getting the final mods done. Should have dyno numbers on April 1st myself. We can compare notes.

1madstsv
03-23-11, 01:15 AM
Thanks I look forward to it. Ryan

550HP STSV
03-25-11, 12:41 PM
bump for sweet info.

1madstsv
04-01-11, 12:28 PM
ok to day is the day i get my snakebitten car dynoed. off to the dyno at 3pm est hopeing for the hard to hit 500 mark.

gizmoQ let me know what your car ends up making. Thanks ryan

GizmoQ
04-02-11, 03:34 AM
Well the verdict is in. Took getting a bigger pump for the intercooler and 72lbs injectors, yet, the knock sensor hears the new gears as knock and wants to retard timing above 5500RPM.


Drum roll please.....

501RWHP/486TQ

But we're not done, yet. Hopefully, with a few mods to the exhaust 540RWHP could be achievable. I'll be doing those mods late next month.

jordan00escalade
04-02-11, 04:37 AM
Congratulations.. Impressive

TimmyC
04-03-11, 10:12 AM
Well the verdict is in. Took getting a bigger pump for the intercooler and 72lbs injectors, yet, the knock sensor hears the new gears as knock and wants to retard timing above 5500RPM.


Drum roll please.....



501RWHP/486TQ

But we're not done, yet. Hopefully, with a few mods to the exhaust 540RWHP could be achievable. I'll be doing those mods late next month.

That's the best snakebite result so far. Can you post a dyno sheet or an HPtuners scan? I am interested in the IAT2s.

GizmoQ
04-03-11, 12:54 PM
That's the best snakebite result so far. Can you post a dyno sheet or an HPtuners scan? I am interested in the IAT2s.

I didn't bring my USB drive so I have to wait till Monday and scan the printout sheet he gave me.

The fix for the my high IATs was the larger intercooler pump. Adding another heat exchanger did little to improve temps and adding anything more under that hood is almost impossible. Changing out the pump even ran into space limitations.

TimmyC
04-03-11, 05:43 PM
I didn't bring my USB drive so I have to wait till Monday and scan the printout sheet he gave me.

The fix for the my high IATs was the larger intercooler pump. Adding another heat exchanger did little to improve temps and adding anything more under that hood is almost impossible. Changing out the pump even ran into space limitations.

Hmmm. What kind of difference are we talking here? 10 degrees, 20, 50? That could be a worthwhile mod for anyone.

GizmoQ
04-03-11, 05:56 PM
Hmmm. What kind of difference are we talking here? 10 degrees, 20, 50? That could be a worthwhile mod for anyone.

Timing was 17 for this run. We backed it down to 12 for my highway cruising this month.

TimmyC
04-03-11, 07:00 PM
Timing was 17 for this run. We backed it down to 12 for my highway cruising this month.

How about IATs?

My car is pullied to 15psi and IAT2s were hitting 140 at the end of a pull.

1madstsv
04-04-11, 10:00 AM
What pump did you use. Heat was killing me even with meth.

wait4me
04-04-11, 11:26 AM
Pump was a WP136S mezier pump with 3/4 inch inlet and outlet an fittings, total cost for the pump and fittings is about 300 after shipping from jegs.

The injectors are stock modified ones punched out to 72lb. The worked perfectly and where a cinch to set up. Ill be using them in every build from now on as idle and low rpms are flawless still even with the larger flows.. Fuel injector connection Fic in georgia did them for me.

As for timing, that pull was with 14deg of timing on the engine. Not 17.. I moved it down to 12 deg for the street, just to be safe because the boost was just too much for the car. 18psi is alot!

Headers and no cats would lower it some, not sure if it would be enough though..

wait4me
04-04-11, 11:29 AM
Another note is, I made an intercooler for the front of the car, and put it in, Suprisingly, the cool down time at 70mph was identical with or without the added in intercooler, so i removed it and just left in the pump. That was good enough to keep things happy.

1madstsv
04-04-11, 11:50 AM
Ok thanks thats good info for me I will be ording a pump this week. What were the iat with the new pump?

wait4me
04-04-11, 02:59 PM
iat in my area vs yours will be different as the ambeint temps here where not the same. cool down time vs temp is what you want to watch for. A good test is, with stock setup, floor the car from 2000 to 6000 in 3rd gear, monitoring the temps, then bring it down to 70mph and put it regular drive mode and just lightly cruise at that mph and watch how long it takes for the temperature to come back down to your starting point. The better the system, the faster those times be. An improvement would be noticable.

PGA2B
04-04-11, 04:45 PM
iat in my area vs yours will be different as the ambeint temps here where not the same. cool down time vs temp is what you want to watch for. A good test is, with stock setup, floor the car from 2000 to 6000 in 3rd gear, monitoring the temps, then bring it down to 70mph and put it regular drive mode and just lightly cruise at that mph and watch how long it takes for the temperature to come back down to your starting point. The better the system, the faster those times be. An improvement would be noticable.

It would still be beneficial to upgrade from stock though correct? Especially in the STS-V's where room is not so much an object. The stock unit just looks really small and it is not very thick.

TimmyC
04-04-11, 09:45 PM
Pump was a WP136S mezier pump with 3/4 inch inlet and outlet an fittings, total cost for the pump and fittings is about 300 after shipping from jegs.

The injectors are stock modified ones punched out to 72lb. The worked perfectly and where a cinch to set up. Ill be using them in every build from now on as idle and low rpms are flawless still even with the larger flows.. Fuel injector connection Fic in georgia did them for me.

As for timing, that pull was with 14deg of timing on the engine. Not 17.. I moved it down to 12 deg for the street, just to be safe because the boost was just too much for the car. 18psi is alot!

Headers and no cats would lower it some, not sure if it would be enough though..

What did the temps get to with that pump installed?

GizmoQ
04-06-11, 02:41 AM
What did the temps get to with that pump installed?
I've been trying to learn how to datalog the cars ODBII with a program called PCMSCan. Only done a few but the IAT ranges from 88 to 133 degrees while cruising on the highway and some city stop and go traffic. I know it shoots up pretty quick when I accelerate, but it comes right down. My average on a 22 mile commute (16 of which is interstate) was 90 and the outside temp was 90.

Well had a scare this weekend. Was on my way to autocross on Sunday, got behind a slower car on I-70, went to pass and as the passing gear kicked in the blower spun up faster than the ECM could keep up. There was a loud thud and then P0014/P0024 and the exhaust cams were out of sync with the Crank. The motor rattled and shook and sounded like a hoopty without a muffler. Power went way down and oil pressure dropped to 10PSI. I thought I blew the heads of the motor. Had it towed to the dealership, told them what I did, and what happen and left it to them.

Dealership said the crank bolt had backed out and caused the low oil pressure. The low oil pressure caused the cam position system to malfunction, etc, etc, etc. The MasterTech who works on my car there said this is also seen on the ZR1 Corvettes where the threads on the crankbolt get stretched so GM redesigned the bolt and that's what he put into my motor.

Moral of the story: I have renamed this mod from Snake Bite to Rattler (Must be a Diamondback cause this ain't been cheap). This is the third time I've had bolts walk out of their seats since I installed this supercharger. The SC and the gears rattle so much the car wants to disintegrate. I don't feel it from my seat of the pants meter, but I know its there. I will be checking the bolts everywhere on at least a monthly basis from now on.

Back to the datalogging. One parameter that I can monitor is "Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure." I thought this was a sensor prior to the supercharger. Yes?? No?? Someone fill me in cause the same log I got the IATs data from showed this sensor ranging from 3.3lbs to 23lbs with an average of 7.5lbs. Should I be concerned??

Next week I have a 2000 mile road trip planned two car shows and ending with autocross at the conclusion. Let's hope the Rattler can hold together. I'll be data logging a few legs of the trip to review when I get back home.

I'll then get to work on the exhaust.

GizmoQ
04-06-11, 03:31 AM
Oops, forgot the dyno sheet. Since I forgot to bring my thumb drive had to scan the printout with my crappy scanner. Here's the file.
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/European%20Vacation/FireFox/Snake%20Bite/500hp00001im.jpg

wait4me
04-07-11, 09:11 AM
It is hard to read the boost numbers but in yellow on that dyno graph, it says 14.4 was the min boost at 3200rpm and max was 18.8 at 6000rpm and still climbing.

The Fuel was pretty easy to get exact what i was wanting with the modded injectors, You can see how smooth the fuel chart is with my target at 11.8 then moving a little richer, then moving back in slowly as rpms increased. Not bad for a 300 dollar mod.

PGA2B
04-07-11, 09:29 AM
Not bad for a 300 dollar mod.

Are you referring to the injectors?

GizmoQ
04-07-11, 10:13 AM
Are you referring to the injectors?

Yes.

TimmyC
04-07-11, 08:36 PM
It is hard to read the boost numbers but in yellow on that dyno graph, it says 14.4 was the min boost at 3200rpm and max was 18.8 at 6000rpm and still climbing.

The Fuel was pretty easy to get exact what i was wanting with the modded injectors, You can see how smooth the fuel chart is with my target at 11.8 then moving a little richer, then moving back in slowly as rpms increased. Not bad for a 300 dollar mod.

I've used modded injectors from them too and been happy with them.

I asked before but it kind of got lost, how much of a difference did the upgraded intercooler pump make in the IAT2s?

JimmyH
04-07-11, 09:01 PM
Can't wait to see the snake next weekend!

GizmoQ
04-07-11, 09:53 PM
Can't wait to see the snake next weekend!

Keep your fingers crossed. I got 2000 mile to travel between now and then.

550HP STSV
04-22-11, 08:44 AM
Gizmo, what is the model# of the injectors you upgraded to?

GizmoQ
04-22-11, 06:34 PM
Gizmo, what is the model# of the injectors you upgraded to?

Jesse pull the OEM injectors and had them sent out for mod.

GizmoQ
04-26-11, 01:17 AM
Well the first road test is complete. I now have 3700 miles on the RattleSnake Bite. Two trips to Warsaw, IN. Then mostly highway From St Louis to Indy to Charleston, SC and returned home via Tail of the Dragon to Indy for the V meet and autocross the next day and finally back home. Been raining here daily so it sits waiting for clear skies. The new tires were great on the highway , but sucked for autocross - I spun in round three. ;)

Cruising the Carolinas was a blast.
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s345/bkashpaugh/Biltmore%20Trip%202011/IMG_2274.jpg
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s345/bkashpaugh/Charleston%202011/IMG_4431.jpg
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/Midwest%20Marauders/Carolinas/SAM_0363.jpg

O.K. back to the mods. I gotta find time to pull down the exhaust so I can gut the cats, but I won't do it till after I pass the OBDII emissions test. Emissions test is top priority this month and shouldn't be a problem. The last code I had was traction control during the autocross.

Till them I'm doing cosmetic mods to fill in/cover the exposed engine sections from the loss of the engine cover. Adding additional emblems (Rattlesnakes). And bench testing the CarPC to be installed between the seats.

I'll be in Indy most of next month for all the 150th Indy 500 festivities so I don't expect to get a whole lot done. June should be a big month for adding HP.

Mitch_Syd
06-05-11, 04:46 AM
great thread

PGA2B
06-10-11, 03:50 PM
One parameter that I can monitor is "Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure." I thought this was a sensor prior to the supercharger. Yes?? No?? Someone fill me in cause the same log I got the IATs data from showed this sensor ranging from 3.3lbs to 23lbs with an average of 7.5lbs. Should I be concerned??

Sorry I'm am a little late on this one but:

That can be converted to boost. That is actually the pressure inside your manifold normally measured in kPa (Kilopascals) but can be converted to psi. Not sure how your scanner is representing it in lbs though.

I made a boost gauge in my HP Tuners software to monitor it.

Basically

MAP-Barometric pressure= Boost

If you do a Google search for kPa to Boost conversion there is TONS of info.

550HP STSV
06-10-11, 07:37 PM
hmmm. PID#?

PGA2B
06-10-11, 11:34 PM
PID for what?

PID.11 is MAP and PID.51 is Baro. Here is the formula for my boost gauge.

([PID.11.PSI]-[PID.51.PSI])*(([PID.11.PSI]<[PID.51.PSI])+1+(([PID.11.PSI]<[PID.51.PSI])*.04))

But that will only work in HP (I think).

BCwheelsNA
06-16-11, 03:27 PM
Nice car!! I want one! :)

GizmoQ
08-16-11, 11:32 PM
Been a while since I last posted. Not much going into mods been traveling mostly. Tracked the car twice, so had to replace tires again. :helpless:

Computer is in, joystick is in. Data logging has begun (can't read IAT2, yet.:crying2:) Computer mod not done completely. I still have to add my HDRadio and get rid of a slight RFI problem. Didn't know there was so much heat transferred to the rollbars. Computer temp is too high so need to add some ventilation.

After another 4000 miles, I finally got around to gutting the cats. My local muffler shop opened the bottom half of the cats and pulled all the guts out, then welded the bottoms back on. Looks clean, no leaks, and breathes much better.


How much did the sound change, Gizmo? From semi clogged cats to gutted cats now? Does the car smell bad? Is it ratty? A lot of drone? Did it get much louder inside the car? Outside the car?

Wow, fast and furious.
Sound is more hollow, not as deep like before - I can tell the exhaust flows faster(went from 60s muscle car to ferrari).
Not clogged at all, just hot and costing power. Completely gutted now.
Exhaust does smell, but I'm moving too fast to smell it most of the time.
Not ratty at all, I thought it would be, too, but downshifts are SICK - whole lotta rumble.:lildevil:
Already had drone, pitch is a little higher, unnoticeable to casual bystander. Need Corsas now.
Inside is pretty much the same, throttle's just more responsive (like I ever thought that could happen).
Outside is definitely a different note. Startup is loud as hell, then 10 seconds to calm idle (sweet rumble), WOT is ridiculous - its louder on both ends, intake and exhaust! :cool2:

550HP STSV
01-19-12, 04:36 PM
do you get like a fluttering noise, or like a russling noise from the gutted cats? most noticeable when you pass another car you can hear like a slight exhaust leak sound from the cats now being hollow?

GizmoQ
01-19-12, 08:00 PM
do you get like a fluttering noise, or like a russling noise from the gutted cats? most noticeable when you pass another car you can hear like a slight exhaust leak sound from the cats now being hollow?

I only get that at startup and it was there before I gutted the cats. I've listened for it when cruising and at WOT and if its there its too faint for me to notice since my mufflers are always open. You might want to check for a real exhaust leak, tighten up the bolts past the cats, and have your welds redone.

550HP STSV
01-19-12, 08:59 PM
Agreed. Thanks for the advice.

You ever get that super chiller in?

GizmoQ
01-19-12, 10:04 PM
Agreed. Thanks for the advice.

You ever get that super chiller in?

This season, hopefully.

GizmoQ
03-03-12, 11:48 PM
Mod hell continues...

Took a quick vacation to Florida for the CTS-V Shootout at Palm Beach International Raceway. The group rented the track for the whole day 9-4. 20 Cadillacs showed up, 16 ready to race. One guy drove down from Milwaukee and took his snow tires off to put on his Drag Radials.:rocker: Watching the CTS-V guys drag race all day really got to me. Totally stock 2010 V2 sedan had the nerve to run a 12.07 on drag radials. Super modified 2009 V2 sedan ran 10.43 without using his 300 shot nitrous (just imagine what nitrous would do). By the afternoon, they goaded me into running Elwood. My best time after three runs was 12.873 @110.5 with a 2.134 60ft time. Road tires and gradual throttle input kept my 60ft times pretty high and I still lost traction in the first to second shift. But I digress....

The Florida trip was to drop off Elwood for cooling mods. A Super Chiller is being added to the supercharger intercooler line and meth injection is being added to the intakes. Hopefully, with these two mods IAT and IAT2 temps can be reduced enough to add more timing and finally achieve my goal RWHP.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk63/TrekGTO/GTO%202point5/Interchiller/IMAG0766.jpg


The Super Chiller is basically an interface between the AC and intercooler coolant that chills the intercooler coolant to ~50 degrees. The simplest description of a Super Chiller is that it makes cold water. There is no way a water to air heat exchanger is going to make 50 deg water when its 95 deg out. With coolant refrigerated to low 50s the intercooler will be as efficient as possible. The version being installed is competition style, i.e., comes with a switch that disables cockpit AC for max intercooler chilling. I figured this best because I rarely use the AC anyway, there's no reason for me to freeze just to get the blower chilled. Below is the freon/water heat exchanger. Mine is the bigger one on the left. The one on the right is for GTO and Camaro applications.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk63/TrekGTO/GTO%202point5/Interchiller/40.jpg



Methanol is primarily for the increase in effective octane rating as well as cooling the air inlet charge. The Stage 3 Boost Cooler® chosen is one of the best for accuracy and adjustability in water-methanol injection systems. This system features an LCD display with on-the-fly adjustability. The software creates a delivery map based on boost or EFI signal from just a few easy to set points you punch in from the drivers seat. I like this one because the LCD Screen displays boost pressure, fuel injector duty cycle, as well as water-methanol injection percent. Since the XLR has no boost gauge, this alleviates my having to get a gauge stack like Bob's. Quick, easy, positive adjustments are made with 2 push buttons. Low profile design allows for easy-to-view and discrete mounting inside the instrument cluster just above the DIC.

http://www.snowperformance.net/product_images/product-large_image-75.jpg

As usual, we already run into a few snags. Since there is no intercooler coolant tank, we've had to go with a larger freon/water heat exchanger. The larger exchanger barely fits in front of the wheel well after we had to move the transmission cooler to the front of the radiator. The Meth kit will use the windshield wiper fluid tank so the headlight washer pump and hoses had to be disabled/removed and that line out of the tank now feeds the injector pump.

In moving the transmission cooler, my mechanic found the transmission fluid was, well, lets just say drag racing burnt the life out it. Now I'm looking for a bigger trans cooler and the trans fluid needs to be flushed.

Once these mods are done, we'll dyno it against the current cruising tune to log ICWT, IAT, and IAT2 so I'm comfortable to drive it home. Then Wait4Me will dyno tune it again to dial in the meth and get all the horsepower available.

I just hope I'm lucky enough to get this accomplished in a couple weeks so I can join the MM gang at Sebring and then stay the next week to see the Team Cadillac racing in the Streets of St Pete.

TimmyC
03-04-12, 11:05 PM
Mod hell continues...

Took a quick vacation to Florida for the CTS-V Shootout at Palm Beach International Raceway. The group rented the track for the whole day 9-4. 20 Cadillacs showed up, 16 ready to race. One guy drove down from Milwaukee and took his snow tires off to put on his Drag Radials.:rocker: Watching the CTS-V guys drag race all day really got to me. Totally stock 2010 V2 sedan had the nerve to run a 12.07 on drag radials. Super modified 2009 V2 sedan ran 10.43 without using his 300 shot nitrous (just imagine what nitrous would do). By the afternoon, they goaded me into running Elwood. My best time after three runs was 12.873 @110.5 with a 2.134 60ft time. Road tires and gradual throttle input kept my 60ft times pretty high and I still lost traction in the first to second shift. But I digress....

The Florida trip was to drop off Elwood for cooling mods. A Super Chiller is being added to the supercharger intercooler line and meth injection is being added to the intakes. Hopefully, with these two mods IAT and IAT2 temps can be reduced enough to add more timing and finally achieve my goal RWHP.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk63/TrekGTO/GTO%202point5/Interchiller/IMAG0766.jpg


The Super Chiller is basically an interface between the AC and intercooler coolant that chills the intercooler coolant to ~50 degrees. The simplest description of a Super Chiller is that it makes cold water. There is no way a water to air heat exchanger is going to make 50 deg water when its 95 deg out. With coolant refrigerated to low 50s the intercooler will be as efficient as possible. The version being installed is competition style, i.e., comes with a switch that disables cockpit AC for max intercooler chilling. I figured this best because I rarely use the AC anyway, there's no reason for me to freeze just to get the blower chilled. Below is the freon/water heat exchanger. Mine is the bigger one on the left. The one on the right is for GTO and Camaro applications.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk63/TrekGTO/GTO%202point5/Interchiller/40.jpg



Methanol is primarily for the increase in effective octane rating as well as cooling the air inlet charge. The Stage 3 Boost Cooler® chosen is one of the best for accuracy and adjustability in water-methanol injection systems. This system features an LCD display with on-the-fly adjustability. The software creates a delivery map based on boost or EFI signal from just a few easy to set points you punch in from the drivers seat. I like this one because the LCD Screen displays boost pressure, fuel injector duty cycle, as well as water-methanol injection percent. Since the XLR has no boost gauge, this alleviates my having to get a gauge stack like Bob's. Quick, easy, positive adjustments are made with 2 push buttons. Low profile design allows for easy-to-view and discrete mounting inside the instrument cluster just above the DIC.

http://www.snowperformance.net/product_images/product-large_image-75.jpg

As usual, we already run into a few snags. Since there is no intercooler coolant tank, we've had to go with a larger freon/water heat exchanger. The larger exchanger barely fits in front of the wheel well after we had to move the transmission cooler to the front of the radiator. The Meth kit will use the windshield wiper fluid tank so the headlight washer pump and hoses had to be disabled/removed and that line out of the tank now feeds the injector pump.

In moving the transmission cooler, my mechanic found the transmission fluid was, well, lets just say drag racing burnt the life out it. Now I'm looking for a bigger trans cooler and the trans fluid needs to be flushed.

Once these mods are done, we'll dyno it against the current cruising tune to log ICWT, IAT, and IAT2 so I'm comfortable to drive it home. Then Wait4Me will dyno tune it again to dial in the meth and get all the horsepower available.

I just hope I'm lucky enough to get this accomplished in a couple weeks so I can join the MM gang at Sebring and then stay the next week to see the Team Cadillac racing in the Streets of St Pete.

Sounds like the shootout was a good time. Kudos to you for driving all the way down there for it.

I have two observations:

1. Your trap speed should be a lot higher. 110mph is low to mid 400s for rwhp.
2. Three 1/4 mile runs didn't burn up your trans fluid. You probably have some burned clutches.

GizmoQ
03-04-12, 11:59 PM
Sounds like the shootout was a good time. Kudos to you for driving all the way down there for it.

I have two observations:

1. Your trap speed should be a lot higher. 110mph is low to mid 400s for rwhp.
2. Three 1/4 mile runs didn't burn up your trans fluid. You probably have some burned clutches.

1. You're right, but as I said I wasn't full throttle till after second gear and that was near the 60' mark. I know I was slow and cold street tires didn't help. When I'm at Gateway this summer and can have it towed home to replace the rear diff, I'll put DRs on and stomp on it.

2. I really didn't want to know that. :annoyed:

TimmyC
03-06-12, 12:22 AM
Are the corvette diffs as fragile as the cts/sts?

GizmoQ
03-06-12, 12:51 AM
Are the corvette diffs as fragile as the cts/sts?

I've had two different sources confirm the answer is YES. Damnit.

PGA2B
03-25-12, 11:11 PM
Is the Chiller project done yet?

GizmoQ
03-26-12, 11:53 AM
No need to rehash the other posts, but see the detailed write-up starting at post 100 in this thread:
The ultimate intercooler upgrade! (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-sts-v-series-forum/202555-ultimate-intercooler-upgrade-2.html)



Yes its fairly complete, but other mods/repairs are still ongoing. Data LCDs wiring for both Chiller and Meth should be done this week. Front bumper is off to paint today. Upper and lower grilles geting reinforced. Hood trim getting reglued. Tranny flush scheduled later this week. I anticipate dyno runs 4/7 and another Wait4Me tune the following week. Been at Texas Mile all weekend scoping the place out for a possible run in October. With all this good weather, I miss not having ELWOOD on the road.

deadringer
04-03-12, 10:04 PM
I wonder if you're maybe leaving lots of power on the table that you're not getting... according to this article:

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1006_northstar_cadillac_engine_buildup_questi on/viewall.html

The northstar engines can hit a 8500rpm redline with just a simple valve spring change... and these guys at Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators seem to know what they're doing - perhaps you should give them a call and see what your LC3 motor can really do... most of the tuners I've spoken with seem to be LS tuners who just are using the same tricks on the Northstar, whereas CHRF looks like they specialize in Northstar.

http://www.chrfab.com/

Thoughts?

PGA2B
04-03-12, 10:39 PM
Bad link on the article.

deadringer
04-03-12, 10:40 PM
Lets try again

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1006_northstar_cadillac_engine_buildup_questi on/viewall.html

GizmoQ
04-04-12, 01:43 AM
I wonder if you're maybe leaving lots of power on the table that you're not getting... according to this article:

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1006_northstar_cadillac_engine_buildup_questi on/viewall.html

The northstar engines can hit a 8500rpm redline with just a simple valve spring change... and these guys at Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators seem to know what they're doing - perhaps you should give them a call and see what your LC3 motor can really do... most of the tuners I've spoken with seem to be LS tuners who just are using the same tricks on the Northstar, whereas CHRF looks like they specialize in Northstar.

http://www.chrfab.com/

Thoughts?


Lets try again

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1006_northstar_cadillac_engine_buildup_questi on/viewall.html

I talked to CHRFab several times over the years when I was working on the motor of my Eldorado to reach "V" status. The article makes it sound simple, bolt-on parts and go, but its not. Everyone knows and they (CHRFab) readily admit it, too, that its easy to get high HP out of a NorthStar - just not in a Cadillac. No one has figured out how to manage a built NorthStar with the Cadillac computers. From what I remember, 600+ is about all you can manage with the Cadillac PCM and that was drastically and later fatally modified PCM and engine. I'm sure the technology is available now, to go bigger and better. All it costs is time and money - neither of which I wish to invest to the degree necessary.

Since I'm only looking for 550-575RWHP, I decided to see if I could get there without NOS or changes to the internals. NOS would cost me what little trunk space there is with the top down. I have a list of what I'd need done should I have to rebuild the motor (I'll add the CHRFab springs tonight) and the total cost for the entire overhaul is somewhere around $8.5K and three months with no guarantee the PCM can tame it. I'm pretty close to my goal now and its been much, much cheaper than a purpose-built motor. My PCM reprogramming is currently adequate, but I know there are a couple parameters I need to expand further.

Lastly, over the 500-550TQ threshold, the tranny becomes the weak link. And above 550TQ, its a toss-up between the tranny and the rear end. Modding them to take that kind of abuse is in the $3500-6500 range; again with no guarantee the Cadillac computers will cooperate with the changes.

ELWOOD has always been an experiment to see if I can surpass the base Z06 in power without removing the motor or tranny, i.e., original internals and bolt on adders sans NOS. It had to maintain the same ride and comfort, cockpit and trunk space, and match the Z06 in gas mileage.

deadringer
04-04-12, 02:16 AM
I'm in no way of advocating adding NOS - I generally don't like anything I constantly have to fiddle with to work right (is the bottle full? is the bottle valve open? blah blah)

But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?

As for the engine computer - the LC3 uses an E67 computer which is the same computer thats in the ZR1 (LS9) and the CTS-V (LSA) - there doesn't seem to be much difficulty in getting E67 to do what they need to do... I've been using EFIlive to tune mine and I can't imagine what you couldn't adjust... i've been messing with everything from fuel to even the cam timings. The older northstars used a unique computer, but I haven't heard any issues with the E67... Do you know what limitations they're running into?

I don't have any desire for the numbers that you're putting out on your XLR-V but if I were, I would be visiting CHRF to see what they can really do... sometimes you end up running into the right guy and magic happens... there's a post in their forums talking about how they are coming out with a whole bunch of bolt-on's for the VVT-based northstar motors so it looks like they've made some progress at least in the past few months.

I don't disagree with you regarding the trans and diff - the diff busts out in corvettes all the time so thats not news... as for the 6L80e, with some massaging of the torque-management and TCC lockups I think you could get it to last a long while

Well - regardless, I thought it was worth noodling on.

----------


But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?

Looks like it may not be that hard - apparently you can change the springs with the head still on the block... the service manual calls for tool "J 44211 On-Vehicle Valve Spring Compressor"


Kent-Moore Tools
Kent-Moore J-44211 Valve Spring Compressor

For General Motors. The new 4.0/4.6 Premium V8 Engines have valve springs which
are recessed in the cylinder head. Standard valve spring compressing tools will not work.

J-44211 mounts directly to the cylinder head and will service four valves in a single mounting position.

I'm not saying that *I* would be willing to do it, but it would seem to save a lot of labor if you could just pop the valve covers and just go at it... the procedure looks pretty straight forward in the service manual...

just a thought...

GizmoQ
04-13-12, 02:59 AM
Good bye Florida.

http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad271/GizmoQ/CadillacForums/Elwoodpickup009.jpg

On my way to W4M within the week. We'll tune the Meth and take advantage of the chiller.

coati
04-13-12, 03:29 AM
Elwood is looking good! :thumbsup:

Have a great road trip and keep us posted on how the tuning goes.

TimmyC
04-15-12, 09:56 AM
I'm in no way of advocating adding NOS - I generally don't like anything I constantly have to fiddle with to work right (is the bottle full? is the bottle valve open? blah blah)

But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?

As for the engine computer - the LC3 uses an E67 computer which is the same computer thats in the ZR1 (LS9) and the CTS-V (LSA) - there doesn't seem to be much difficulty in getting E67 to do what they need to do... I've been using EFIlive to tune mine and I can't imagine what you couldn't adjust... i've been messing with everything from fuel to even the cam timings. The older northstars used a unique computer, but I haven't heard any issues with the E67... Do you know what limitations they're running into?

I don't have any desire for the numbers that you're putting out on your XLR-V but if I were, I would be visiting CHRF to see what they can really do... sometimes you end up running into the right guy and magic happens... there's a post in their forums talking about how they are coming out with a whole bunch of bolt-on's for the VVT-based northstar motors so it looks like they've made some progress at least in the past few months.

I don't disagree with you regarding the trans and diff - the diff busts out in corvettes all the time so thats not news... as for the 6L80e, with some massaging of the torque-management and TCC lockups I think you could get it to last a long while

Well - regardless, I thought it was worth noodling on.

----------



Looks like it may not be that hard - apparently you can change the springs with the head still on the block... the service manual calls for tool "J 44211 On-Vehicle Valve Spring Compressor"


Kent-Moore Tools
Kent-Moore J-44211 Valve Spring Compressor

For General Motors. The new 4.0/4.6 Premium V8 Engines have valve springs which
are recessed in the cylinder head. Standard valve spring compressing tools will not work.

J-44211 mounts directly to the cylinder head and will service four valves in a single mounting position.

I'm not saying that *I* would be willing to do it, but it would seem to save a lot of labor if you could just pop the valve covers and just go at it... the procedure looks pretty straight forward in the service manual...

just a thought...

Adding RPM to a motor with a supercharger that is already spinning much faster than stock is not going to increase power output. His current 7000rpm is already past the power peak of the engine. If anything boost will decrease as the engine outruns the capacity of the blower.

CHR might have some experience with camshafts on these but I'm not sure how much they have done with the RWD motors.

I agree that the E67 will work great at the power levels Giz has in mind. Mine worked fine at 575/621 when I had the turbo on it. The transmission didn't hold up but the computer and rear end were ok.

deadringer
04-15-12, 03:10 PM
Adding RPM to a motor with a supercharger that is already spinning much faster than stock is not going to increase power output. His current 7000rpm is already past the power peak of the engine. If anything boost will decrease as the engine outruns the capacity of the blower..

Is that really true? In the ECM calibrations the VVT has a max rpm default setting of 6800rpm (or somehting like that) and slams back to 0deg before 7k rpm or above... that could be one reason why you see it drop off in power beyond 7k. It would be worth checking to making sure that isn't an issue.

Also - even if the power drops off a bit beyond 7k, you could still get remarkable 0-60 times since you could stay in 1st the entire way up to 65mph (assuming you haven't changed the rear diff ratio).


CHR might have some experience with camshafts on these but I'm not sure how much they have done with the RWD motors.

From what I've read - they seem to be working on the RWD motors too - suggesting they may roll out some bolt-ons for the new motors... and they also say that there's actually very little difference between the FWD and the RWD engines other than VVT and some upgraded features (like they fixed the head blot threading).


I agree that the E67 will work great at the power levels Giz has in mind. Mine worked fine at 575/621 when I had the turbo on it. The transmission didn't hold up but the computer and rear end were ok.

There's probably going to be a lot more E67 hacking going on now with the ZL1 rolling out with the LSA motor as well... I doubt the ECM will ever be a problem for big power.

TimmyC
04-15-12, 07:04 PM
More rpm is not the answer with a roots supercharger. Centrifugal yes, roots no. The roots upercharger just gets pushed even further out of its efficiency range. Power will drop to the point where it's advantageous to shift gears well before 8500rpm.

Timing and rev limits are easy to tune. I am sure Giz's car has had that addressed.