: Not so pleased with my Cadillac...



ddalder
12-26-10, 04:16 PM
I canít say Iíve been very impressed with my í08 STS as yet. I took delivery a few weeks ago and have discovered what seems like endless problems. I researched its history as thoroughly as possible prior to making the purchase. The overall condition is far too nice to believe this car was ďabusedĒ by the previous owner(s). I selected a vehicle with reasonable mileage (about 31,000mi / 50,000km) and still within factory warranty (thank goodness!).


Navigation radio wonít accept a disc (there isnít one already in it).
Touch screen wonít work in certain locations (displays everything fine).
Power steering line is leaking.
Passive keyless entry on both front doors inoperative (trunk works fine).
Trim around base of driver seat keeps popping off.
Imitation "chrome" on LF inside door handle is peeling.
ďService Lane Departure SystemĒ warning displays intermittently.
Random ďSpeed Limited to 194km/hr. message on DIC (last was while driving 70km/hour or 45mi/hour). Iíve never had the car above 120km/hour or 75miles/hour.
Head-Up Display control wonít adjust vertical position down without tapping on top of dash while holding the control.
Driver lumbar position wonít save in personalization settings.
Battery seems questionable. Iíve had to charge it three times so far, but when the car is running, voltage is 14+ so I doubt it is the alternator. Connections seem clean and tight.

Iíve had it into the dealership. A navigation radio has been ordered, along with a power steering line. They managed to fix the trim on the seat. As for all the other problems, I believe the technician has done a very poor job with diagnosis. I suspect my car will be back in three or four times to fix all the problems.

They say all the other problems are likely caused by a faulty navigation radio. Because some areas of the touch screen donít work, they werenít able to save driver preferences. Not sure why, I pressed the button, waited for the double beep and it worked for me! They wonít do anything with the other faults until a new radio is in.

In examining the stored DTCís, schematic diagrams and the presenting symptoms, Iím not sure how the technician came to his conclusion. Lazy and not wanting to understand the problems and systems is my guess. Needless to say, Iím a little frustrated and hope these problems arenít a sign of what the future holds. If I decide to keep the car, an extended warranty will be my next purchase.

I understand 2008 was somewhat a year of change for the STS. I havenít researched all the differences between the í07 and í08 so I donít know how many of my problems are related to technology ďnew for 2008Ē.

txbest1980
12-26-10, 04:25 PM
i can actually agree with some of the technician's findings and not pressing with some of the other problems. these cars are temperamental, and just because it worked for you don't mean that it works properly and every single time. it also makes sense that a lot of these problems can be linked to a faulty radio, because so much of the electronics in today's Cadillac go through the radio and amp. just be patient and let them take the proper steps to correct your problems. i know it can be a pain in the rear to continue to take your car back up there, but that may be what it takes for them to find every single problem and fix it

ddalder
12-26-10, 04:59 PM
Well, here's my problem with his/her diagnosis... The radio is used an an interface for setting preferences, I don't dispute this. Some are stored in the radio, some aren't. There are of course other functions that integrate different systems as well.

The DTC's for the passive keyless entry for both front doors are B3119 (and B3120), Symptom 05. This is a "Keyless entry antenna 1 (or 2 depending on the door) performance short to battery or open". Antennas in question are on different sides of the car (in each door). Looking at schematics, the wiring passes through different connectors before finally connecting to the RCDLR under the rear shelf. I find it difficult to accept that a faulty navigation radio will cause an open or short to battery in the RCDLR antenna circuits since the systems are completely independent. None of the RCDLR and radio antennas are "shared". It is most conceivable that the RCDLR module is faulty. Yes, wiring could be faulty (particularly near the RCDLR) and there's an outside chance that both door antennas are bad.

As for the HUD. I fail to see how the navigation radio will necessitate the need to tap on the dash while adjusting the image down. There is no DTC set and this appears to be a strictly mechanincal fault in the projector adjuster mechanism. The vertical control button is wired directly to the HUD and does not use the radio. The display adjusts up without a problem and the switch works fine. When the switch is pressed, the square corner indicators appear as they should.

The DTC for the Lane Departure Warning is an internal module memory fault and the only service information remedy for this particular DTC is to replace the module. This modules communicates on the GMLAN bus to turn on and off instrument cluster indicators, sound a chime, but again, other than using the navigation radio to turn the option on/off via a serial data message, it is an independent system.

I may need to eat my words, but I'm confident enough I'd bet my next paycheque that a new radio will not fix these problems.

C&C
12-26-10, 05:01 PM
Sounds like you have the situation well in hand; if the dealer does his job and all you concerns get corrected you'll be in fine shape. My CPO '06 (just off lease I'm guessing) had multiple concerns of mine (steering, diff, tranny and a couple of other things), all were corrected, and now I'm lov'n my STS.

ddalder
12-26-10, 05:09 PM
Sounds like you have the situation well in hand; if the dealer does his job and all you concerns get corrected you'll be in fine shape. My CPO '06 (just off lease I'm guessing) had multiple concerns of mine (steering, diff, tranny and a couple of other things), all were corrected, and now I'm lov'n my STS.

I'm really hoping I'll enjoy my STS as well since I've wanted one for a very long time. It's disappointing that with such a low-mileage car there are so many things in need of service. I purchased the car from a GM dealership specifically in the hope I could take delivery of a (relatively) problem free car. Life experience tells me problems occur over time, I just didn't expect so many this early. I'll give the dealership an opportunity to service the vehicle and decide from there.

turnerbend
12-26-10, 05:22 PM
There is a learning curve when you buy a Cadillac, grin and bare it. Also, sometimes you have to drop your expectations.

SlickCityStan
12-26-10, 08:27 PM
There is a learning curve when you buy a Cadillac, grin and bare it. Also, sometimes you have to drop your expectations.That's the problem, shouldn't have to "drop" my expectations on a car of this caliber(supposed). What learning curve? Learning to to expect problems? The reason for buying a luxury performace sedan-and an American one at that is reliability. If I wanted quirks, and random problems popping up for no reason then I would buy a mega-priced high performance exotic. IMHO

turnerbend
12-26-10, 11:35 PM
That's the problem, shouldn't have to "drop" my expectations on a car of this caliber(supposed). What learning curve? Learning to to expect problems? The reason for buying a luxury performace sedan-and an American one at that is reliability. If I wanted quirks, and random problems popping up for no reason then I would buy a mega-priced high performance exotic. IMHO
A year or so ago I post that todays Cadillac is 40% over priced. You buy these cars with the expectation that they will be trouble free. Not so. I have been driving a Cadillac for about 50 years and the quality is not the same as the pre 90's Cadillacs. You can either drop your expectations or grin and bare it.

ddalder
12-26-10, 11:42 PM
That's the problem, shouldn't have to "drop" my expectations on a car of this caliber(supposed). What learning curve? Learning to to expect problems? The reason for buying a luxury performace sedan-and an American one at that is reliability. If I wanted quirks, and random problems popping up for no reason then I would buy a mega-priced high performance exotic. IMHO

I agree completely, SlickCityStan. I don't believe my expectations are too high, simply that what is installed, works. For a vehicle that was nearing $80K CAN new (although I did buy pre-owned), I certainly don't expect this number of problems at 30,000 miles. I could have purchased inexpensive, "disposable" vehicles but I have no desire to be inconvenienced by repeated visits to a repair facility. As I'm sure everyone here knows, warranty work must be completed at a Cadillac dealership. Since I don't live next door to one, every trip I make is time from my already busy day. I had my sights on a Cadillac for a reason.

As for a learning curve, I agree with SlickCityStan here also. I tend to do things a little different than most. Before purchasing the car, I had already read all owner's manuals, related supplements and much of the GM service related documentation. I like to know what I'm getting (and to some extent how it works) before I spend money. I have what most consider a strong background with vehicles and I'm not big on surprises. Much of my issue is the delay in getting parts. Very few (so far none of them) are available in Canada. This means every time my car goes in and they finally decide something else is required, it's another 7-10 days for them to get parts. When I need to return multiple times, this makes the entire process drag on a long time.

I'm sure my experience isn't "typical" however, this doesn't make it any less frustrating or inconvenient. I'm looking forward to having these problems repaired and hopefully a reasonably trouble-free future.

turnerbend
12-27-10, 12:00 AM
Dalder,
80 grans for a car. I feel your pain. I pray the you visit your dealership as much as needed to get all of your problems corrected and then you will have a worry free automobile. Learn as much as you possible can about the Cadillac so that you can tell the dealership what problems you are having and that way you will not have to go back again for the same problem.

EChas3
12-27-10, 12:40 AM
If the OP 'did his research' he knows these cars need to visit the dealer more often than many. A good dealer makes a big difference in the Cadillac experience. Personally, the my time and inconvenience is balanced out by driving luxury rentals.

The 'Golden Rule' is just common sense. Treat people well and you're more likely to be treated well, too.

Service writers couldn't keep their jobs if they didn't like helping people. But nobody likes dealing with a grouch; don't be one. Most techs like working on well maintained machines; make sure your car is tidy. Think of how many people give them grief for things that are out of their control. It's not that hard to be pleasant while being persistent.

Don't take no for an answer but you can help prevent it from being a 'Hell no!'

ddalder
12-27-10, 01:37 AM
If the OP 'did his research' he knows these cars need to visit the dealer more often than many. A good dealer makes a big difference in the Cadillac experience. Personally, the my time and inconvenience is balanced out by driving luxury rentals.

The 'Golden Rule' is just common sense. Treat people well and you're more likely to be treated well, too.

Service writers couldn't keep their jobs if they didn't like helping people. But nobody likes dealing with a grouch; don't be one. Most techs like working on well maintained machines; make sure your car is tidy. Think of how many people give them grief for things that are out of their control. It's not that hard to be pleasant while being persistent.

Don't take no for an answer but you can help prevent it from being a 'Hell no!'

I keep my vehicles in immaculate condition. I average a few thousand dollars per year on each of my cars replacing items that are/appear scuffed, damaged or worn to maintain as close to a "new" look and feel as possible. My vehicles are my hobby, not a mere mode of transportation. I spend countless hours annually with custom modifications (although not to my STS), care and maintenance. It is because of my time and financial committment that I expect them to work as engineered.

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that because these are more expensive, luxurious cars I should expect to have more problems? We seem to have differing viewpoints here. If you compare GM's regular maintenance schedule for the STS with most other GM vehicles (Pontiac, Chevrolet, GMC, etc), there are not many differences. I'm not sure what service loaners they provide in the US, but in Canada, they are a similar sized vehicle to what you normally drive and IF they happen to be a "luxury" vehicle, are generally a base or scaled down version. Thanks, but I prefer to drive my own car.

My complaints are not directed toward the service advisor. It is true that I may question a number of things and am perhaps more assertive than some customers but I'm far from a "grouch". I understand how to deal with service facilities and do so daily as part of my occupational responsibility. I'm not cheap, nor do I (generally) negotiate on prices. I will usually pay the asking price because I believe "you get what you pay for". Having said this, I expect a good product and good service.

My point is simple. I work very hard for what I have. If Cadillac wants me to believe these cars are luxurious, innovative and reliable, that's what I expect.

Jesda
12-27-10, 02:00 AM
If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that because these are more expensive, luxurious cars I should expect to have more problems? We seem to have differing viewpoints here. I

Honestly, what he says is true. I wish it wasn't, but more performance and luxury means more things could potentially go wrong.

Its why third-world nations drive Corollas, old VW Beetles, and Isuzu, Ford, and Toyota pickup trucks. They're so simple that they're easy to fix and less likely to break.

ddalder
12-27-10, 02:20 AM
... more performance and luxury means more things could potentially go wrong.
I appreciate what you are saying, however the majority of my problems are not related to "new" technology for 2008 nor are they performance/powertrain related. These are mostly items available now for a number of model years and it isn't unreasonable to expect many of them should have been refined by now. This is exactly the reason GM puts part ordering restrictions on some items. They use this process to track failures for the purpose of ongoing engineering improvements.

Statistically, it's perfectly reasonable to assume more items may result in more failures. I understand this but it's also why I selected a newer model year vehicle with many pre-existing technologies.

caddyfat2
12-27-10, 08:26 AM
That's the problem, shouldn't have to "drop" my expectations on a car of this caliber(supposed). What learning curve? Learning to to expect problems? The reason for buying a luxury performace sedan-and an American one at that is reliability. If I wanted quirks, and random problems popping up for no reason then I would buy a mega-priced high performance exotic. IMHO

Amen, You got that right and I agree with you 100%

txbest1980
12-27-10, 11:02 AM
let's just face the facts, you bought a USED car...we all know that buying USED is a risk, plain and simple. it obviously had problems before you bought it and that's why the original owner dumped it. unfortunately you were the one to buy it and now have to deal with the issues. i am in the same boat as you because i bought my car USED also. hell i bought two of them now that i just bought one for my wife the other day. but these are risk that we were willing to take after we did as much research as possible on both STS's

turnerbend
12-27-10, 11:20 AM
let's just face the facts, you bought a USED car...we all know that buying USED is a risk, plain and simple. it obviously had problems before you bought it and that's why the original owner dumped it. unfortunately you were the one to buy it and now have to deal with the issues.
I totally agree txbest, and there are still some lemons out there that are being resold. Buyer beware......

malatu
12-27-10, 12:10 PM
I totally agree txbest, and there are still some lemons out there that are being resold. Buyer beware......

I suggest the risk of getting a lemon is the same whether a car is new or used! A lemon is a lemon. The warranty provides a piece of mind associated with the purchase. The aggravation endured taking the car back to the dealer (assuming it's under some kind of warranty) is still a pain in the butt regardless of it being new or pre-owned.

caddyfat2
12-27-10, 12:40 PM
All I can say is " You better get some kind of extended warranty " or you will be sorry and I think we all can agree on that.

ddalder
12-27-10, 01:02 PM
All I can say is " You better get some kind of extended warranty " or you will be sorry and I think we all can agree on that.
I'm currently within the original factory warranty period (I fail to understand why the previous owner didn't simply get these problems fixed). I will definitely purchase an extended warranty if I keep the car. I had GMPP on my last two cars and came out well ahead on both. The dealership I use for my other car has been absolutely fantastic and I can't say enough good things about them. They are probably the number one reason I continued on with another GM product. Unfortunately I can't take my STS there for warranty work.

SlickCityStan
12-27-10, 01:48 PM
my car had 18,000 miles when I bought it according to the GM Vehicle Summary Report the most that had been done to this car was replacing the ashtray. I am not naive the first thing I did was buy an extended warranty. And over the years I've brought more used cars than new and quite frankly none have been as quirky as the STS. I bought this car specifically to avoid the problems I and others are having because it was a "CADILLAC". It is rather disappointing to say the least

caddyfat2
12-27-10, 03:12 PM
I bought this car specifically to avoid the problems I and others are having because it was a "CADILLAC". It is rather disappointing to say the least

I think we feel just about the same but I was smart enought to purchase a bumper to bumper extended warranty that will last another year and a half or up to 90k but when it expires I will get rid of it due to my (not anyone else's but my) problems with my STS. I won't knock them all just mines. May an ATS by then but the STS will go.

turnerbend
12-27-10, 09:23 PM
Over the years (50) that I've been driving Cadillacs, I had engine replaced, transmission replaced, alternators, air conditioner, painted, electrical components and etc all under warranty. My 05 STS now have 16,000 miles on the odometer. I accepted it with around 4,000 miles. I had a few issues that I had corrected by the dealer in the first 6 month of ownership some years back. Maybe I don't have enough miles on it to be having major problem but, its well taken care of mostly by me. Will change oil for the 5th time as soon as the weather breaks. I would put it up against any car on the road as far as trouble free driving.
I've found that when you go to the dealer and you know what's wrong with your vehicle, do what is necessary to get satisfaction. Be nice, cruse them out, throw something, threaten them, apologize or whatever it takes. The customer is always right. I've said I'll never buy another Cadillac. I probably will.

turnne
12-27-10, 11:48 PM
let's just face the facts, you bought a USED car...we all know that buying USED is a risk, plain and simple. it obviously had problems before you bought it and that's why the original owner dumped it. unfortunately you were the one to buy it and now have to deal with the issues. i am in the same boat as you because i bought my car USED also. hell i bought two of them now that i just bought one for my wife the other day. but these are risk that we were willing to take after we did as much research as possible on both STS's

Actually buying a used car doesn't mean it doesn't have to be reliable
Many of those issues he mentioned are well documented in this forum as common issues...and to that end documented issues from cars that were new

so are you saying that many of these STS's are lemons?

If that's the case its no wonder the value drops like it does

I can understand why you bought two...the used car price is very low...compared to other cars that were in its class when new

As far as expectations....lowering etc

These cars have always had below average reliability...again...based on other cars in their class. Its doesn't make sense to compare this car to a Corolla or a Impala. 99% of the options on the 2008 had been around for a few years on other makes
So not much new ground was broken....quite frankly

The standard bearers for reliability in this class are the Lexus products...and they have held that crown for years


But they are MUCH more on the used car market


Warren

Jesda
12-28-10, 02:58 AM
I appreciate what you are saying, however the majority of my problems are not related to "new" technology for 2008 nor are they performance/powertrain related. These are mostly items available now for a number of model years and it isn't unreasonable to expect many of them should have been refined by now.

I definitely understand what you're saying. But, as someone who has enjoyed/endured 30 cars in ten years, let me assure you that it isn't a GM-exclusive issue, though GM seems slowest at updating/improving existing models as time progresses.

Lexus arguably does the best job of integrating technology into luxury cars, but you lose out on style and driving dynamics. I'm not sure I'd be willing to endure soul-sucking blandness in favor of reliability, but people's values and needs differ. BMW and Audi, depending on the model, are occasionally more expensive to repair and suffer more electrical failures.

I find it frustrating that FWD Northstars suffered from head gasket failures for nearly a decade.

I could have avoided all of the hassle and driven a Civic or LS400 [I've tried the LS400], but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.



Ideally, we wouldn't have to sacrifice looks and performance for reliability.

txbest1980
12-28-10, 09:15 AM
Actually buying a used car doesn't mean it doesn't have to be reliable
Many of those issues he mentioned are well documented in this forum as common issues...and to that end documented issues from cars that were new

so are you saying that many of these STS's are lemons?

If that's the case its no wonder the value drops like it does

I can understand why you bought two...the used car price is very low...compared to other cars that were in its class when new

As far as expectations....lowering etc

These cars have always had below average reliability...again...based on other cars in their class. Its doesn't make sense to compare this car to a Corolla or a Impala. 99% of the options on the 2008 had been around for a few years on other makes
So not much new ground was broken....quite frankly

The standard bearers for reliability in this class are the Lexus products...and they have held that crown for years


But they are MUCH more on the used car market


Warren

by no means am i saying all STS's are lemons...but what I am saying is, that if you buy a used car, you should expect there to be problems with that car until you truly feel it out. i mean truly feel it out by driving it every day and for at least half a year. my personal belief is that any problem can be masked just to sell an item/car.

as far as the STS and the technology that it has, there is nothing special to me about it and i have been driving Cadillac's for 14 years and I still own most of the one's I bought. I have never bought one of them brand new either, all have been used. the technology in any Cadillac is not superior to any other model out there in my opinion just like you stated...

turnne
12-28-10, 09:44 AM
by no means am i saying all STS's are lemons...but what I am saying is, that if you buy a used car, you should expect there to be problems with that car until you truly feel it out. i mean truly feel it out by driving it every day and for at least half a year. my personal belief is that any problem can be masked just to sell an item/car.

as far as the STS and the technology that it has, there is nothing special to me about it and i have been driving Cadillac's for 14 years and I still own most of the one's I bought. I have never bought one of them brand new either, all have been used. the technology in any Cadillac is not superior to any other model out there in my opinion just like you stated...

Well...I am coming from the other side of the spectrum
I have been ..for the most part...driving one of the german makes for about 20 years
This 2005 STS is my 3rd Northstar powered car( a 2001 Aurora and a 2002 STS were the other two)
I make no bones about it...a low price was the principal reason I purchased them

Not that I dislike them..in fact ..for the money..I have enjoyed them
They pose, in my opinion, no competition for the german in regard to driving experience and no competition to the Japanese for reliability
However....the price is far below either on the used market
So..for me..its about having the "right" expectation.

I am not a Lexus driver either....I have test driven several LS400/430 GS430 over the years...I agree with you...too soft for me
AND the price is too high...that Mercedes money on the used car market
As a driver who prefers the german feel I am certain you can understand why a Lexus does not fit my needs.
I can appreciate the reliability factor...especially the longterm over 150K cars

As as the used car deal goes...I still don't buy that...when non wear and tear parts fail on a large basis....on a newer car. That speaks to the quality of manufacturing

One of the things that the service manager told me from the dealer that had sold and serviced the 02 Cadillac STS that I bought..was that these cars are VERY inconsistent
IE...they have had customers who have driven cars for 150K miles and no issues...and others that have been in the shop almost every month with issues
He went through the list of HG and suspension issues etc.
He also told me that there was great numbers on both side of the spectrum.


Warren

Greg00coupe
12-28-10, 02:19 PM
One of the things that the service manager told me from the dealer that had sold and serviced the 02 Cadillac STS that I bought..was that these cars are VERY inconsistent
IE...they have had customers who have driven cars for 150K miles and no issues...and others that have been in the shop almost every month with issues
He went through the list of HG and suspension issues etc.
He also told me that there was great numbers on both side of the spectrum.


I think this sums it up. If you get a good one you are lucky. If not dump it. THERE IS such a thing as a lemon..... been there done that!!!

I look at it this way....... My 05 was stickered at $62K, came off lease and I paid $24K. I "saved" $38K.
If it was a lemon I would dump it at a loss if needed and I still have a long way to go to use up the $38K.

My expectations are high. I don't buy a car like this to be happy that a few features don't work. I never buy an extended warranty. Again that is me, I think that a mind set like pulling a water ball out in golf. I understand that something like voice recognition is an experiment and is dumb anyway but beyond that I expect everything to work as advertised.

caddyfat2
12-28-10, 04:25 PM
One of the things that the service manager told me from the dealer was that these cars are VERY inconsistent

I noticed that too, some members have very few problems and some like myself have boatloads of them.:cookoo:

txbest1980
12-28-10, 04:50 PM
One of the things that the service manager told me from the dealer that had sold and serviced the 02 Cadillac STS that I bought..was that these cars are VERY inconsistent
IE...they have had customers who have driven cars for 150K miles and no issues...and others that have been in the shop almost every month with issues
He went through the list of HG and suspension issues etc.
He also told me that there was great numbers on both side of the spectrum.


Warren

i do agree with you to a point, but i will definitely have to say that we agree to disagree for the most part. but i do know that all cars from all makes are the same as the STS and any other caddy. you will have some bad ones in every bunch then you will have some issue free one's in the bunch and then you have the tweener's. i just honestly believe that it is a risk no matter what when you are buying a used car. yes new cars have issues also, but buying a used car you truly never know until you experience time with that car.

EChas3
12-28-10, 11:19 PM
I don't think I said anything like "because these are more expensive, luxurious cars I should expect to have more problems?" I said the STS is known to have more problems than many other cars. I wish it didn't, but it does. If that is a surprise, you didn't read much of this forum before buying a used STS.

If you hate going to a dealer for warranty repairs and driving loaners, buy something else. You should also expect to pay more for what you get, too.

ddalder
12-28-10, 11:59 PM
As far as the "lemon" concept goes, I'm not sure I understand this today. Yes, poor assembly may result in fit and finish problems. Perhaps there are connectors that aren't plugged in fully along with some other possibilities. From the original list of complaints, my navigation radio is built by Denso, the lane departure system by (IIRC, but don't quote me) TRW Safety Systems, several other components by Delphi and a multitude of other corporations. So other than quality of final assembly which GM is directly responsible for, why are there so many failures of components from different suppliers. I have considered electrical problems causing multi-module faults, but this still wouldn't address things such as the "mechanical" problem with my HUD, the trim around the base of the driver's seat or the chrome peeling off the interior door handle. I would almost have to think that for my car to be a "lemon" (by traditional definition), it must have been built while the sun was 4 degrees off the horizon, the phase of the moon was just right and wind was blowing due north at 21.5 knots. Since I'm not a believer in this, it suggests there are QA issues that extend well beyond GM and their control. Unfortunately, they warrant the car and accept the responsibility.

In case anyone is curious about my original post, I did take my car to the dealer today. They installed a new battery, power steering line and a brand new navigation radio (and yes, I very much like the navigation component). As I believed all along, this did not correct my problems with keyless entry, lane departure errors, head-up display adjustment problems or the lumbar memory setting in my seat so it's back again tomorrow for a third kick at the cat :(. Once they decide to order the necessary parts, it'll be visit number four and another two weeks. Ugh!

ddalder
12-29-10, 12:25 AM
I don't think I said anything like "because these are more expensive, luxurious cars I should expect to have more problems?"
Well, this is certainly the impression you left me with.


... you didn't read much of this forum before buying a used STS.
Only a portion of what I consider will come from a forum. I've been around various forums for a number of years. Valuable information is available. I also know that much of what some members say is "personal opinion" and frequently not based on facts outside their direct experience. I've run across a lot of people who like to comment for the sake of being heard. So no, I don't look to a forum for all my answers.


If you hate going to a dealer for warranty repairs and driving loaners, buy something else.
I sense having the opinion that what I purchase actually works as GM claims borders as offensive to you. To be honest, I was a little surprised by some of the responses in this thread. There are a number of members who seem quite happy to "settle" for a car with repeated problems versus the few of us who spoke up and expect to get what GM claims we're buying. I haven't seen one of their ads yet that said "... buy our product. It's luxurious and innovative. We hope you like our service department too because you'll be spending a lot of time there.". In fact, the sales personnel ALWAYS have a much different story. Hmmm, perplexing isn't it?

EChas3
12-29-10, 09:41 PM
As far as the "lemon" concept goes, I'm not sure I understand this today. Yes, poor assembly may result in fit and finish problems. Perhaps there are connectors that aren't plugged in fully along with some other possibilities. From the original list of complaints, my navigation radio is built by Denso, the lane departure system by (IIRC, but don't quote me) TRW Safety Systems, several other components by Delphi and a multitude of other corporations. So other than quality of final assembly which GM is directly responsible for, why are there so many failures of components from different suppliers. I have considered electrical problems causing multi-module faults, but this still wouldn't address things such as the "mechanical" problem with my HUD, the trim around the base of the driver's seat or the chrome peeling off the interior door handle. I would almost have to think that for my car to be a "lemon" (by traditional definition), it must have been built while the sun was 4 degrees off the horizon, the phase of the moon was just right and wind was blowing due north at 21.5 knots. Since I'm not a believer in this, it suggests there are QA issues that extend well beyond GM and their control. Unfortunately, they warrant the car and accept the responsibility.

I very much agree with this. IMHO, many more consumer products of all kinds exhibit quality issues than a generation ago. One factor is that proportionately fewer people are willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. Even though people want quality, most still choose a lower priced product.

Look at all the junk lumber that sells because it's a few pennies less per board foot. A disk drive is marketing as MTBF of 50,0000 hours but was never run anywhere near that long. Too often, consumers reward low price, myself included. Quality costs more and at higher levels of quality it costs incrementally more to acheive smaller improvements. Perfect is impossible and it's expensive to even approach it.

Another factor is that manufacturers have ceded too much control to their suppliers. I'm too much a technologist by profession to believe in 'lemons'. There are some bad designs but more often a supplier cuts a corner thinking a part or subsystem is good enough. GM is at fault for the poor quality control. They also pay for the warranty repairs.

My STS is just over 5-years old and has 65,000 miles. Should I have already seen a wheel bearing and water pump fail? No. But that's what a warranty is all about. Even those STS owners who have not had problems, a warranty still give them the security and peace of mind that they will not spend thousands on repairs.

txbest1980
12-29-10, 10:44 PM
In case anyone is curious about my original post, I did take my car to the dealer today. They installed a new battery, power steering line and a brand new navigation radio (and yes, I very much like the navigation component). As I believed all along, this did not correct my problems with keyless entry, lane departure errors, head-up display adjustment problems or the lumbar memory setting in my seat so it's back again tomorrow for a third kick at the cat :(. Once they decide to order the necessary parts, it'll be visit number four and another two weeks. Ugh!

well sorry to hear that it didnt fix all of your problems, but the stealership had to do what they had to do to follow protocol...hopefully they get it fixed for you in the end though

ddalder
12-29-10, 11:02 PM
well sorry to hear that it didnt fix all of your problems, but the stealership had to do what they had to do to follow protocol...hopefully they get it fixed for you in the end though
I went back in today and they continued with the diagnosis. They've ordered a head-up display module, lane departure warning module, both outside front door handles and an inside door handle. In about ten more days my car should be whole again :) I'm really looking forward to experiencing the car the way it was meant to be.

Slee_Stack
12-30-10, 09:54 AM
If I were to post the pages of invoices (probably 15-20) of fixes / repairs I've had done on my STS in the last eleven months, some here may cough up their oatmeal.

Those in the know would just probably give me a sly wink and then proceed to post their own repair list to one-up me!

Expect a LOT of dealer visits with this car if you hope to get it 'just right'.

In all fairness, I haven't had any major repairs needed (outside of my rear glass imploding anyway). Just many noise and annoyance type issues that often require multiple dealer visits to address. I still have one front end noise which still isn't addressed after SIX dealer attempts! I also have a seat issue which is still going strong after THREE repair attempts. As a side benefit, I have lots of brand new parts in all sorts of places.

Perhaps me dealer is incompetant. They are friendly, close, treat me well and turn around the car fairly quick though.

I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference between theory and reality here. It would be fantastic if the STS were indeed a perfect car based on its original price and marketing. Its not.

Seriously. Lower your expectations.

It can be a fine enough vehicle (given the used market price) but it is a matter of HOW MANY issues you will encounter. Not IF you will get a magic perfect one.

I shudder at the thought of someone buying one of these outside original or CPO warranty!