: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?



cadchris
12-21-10, 05:36 AM
Well, lately every Delco part I've bought either through the dealer or authorized Delco Distributor has gone bad within a few months. A Delco EVAP, a Delco Powersteering Pump that whinned immediatly, and now my Delco Water Pump has a very subtle droaning noise to it. Only 1.5 yrs old with 10k miles on that pump

I noticed a slight change in the engine sound/harmonics the other day(something no-one else could pickup) so I checked all accessories with a mechanics stethoscope and the water pump/bolts definitely are transmitting some harmonic noise. Not so much the pump housing because its probably isolated by the internal pump seal or somethng, and the block is silent where the bolts attach.

Someone once told me to see if the GM parts were still available when replacing any part as they are better than Delco like when my P.S. Pump failed. I think Delco P.S. Pumps are remaned anyway from Delco.

I'll have to check to see if they still make GM replacement pumps.

Does anyone remember seeing a post/thread about a guy who was discussing a different brand of a better quality water pump for a 4.9?

I thought it was here or maybe on the Fiero Forums. Can't remember but I think it was someone doing a 4.9 buidup and he named a water pump in his build/mod list and I had the the feeling that he was making a point that this other pump was better for some reason or rational.........................

So to add insult to injury, when the injectors were replaced, I decided to get a new Delco P.S. Pump to replace the original pump, and while everything was appart, why not replace the original GM Waterpump Too as the car has 89k ml.!

I also purchased a new Gates tensioner at that time but I didn't like the looks of it so it never was installed, but the original tensioner spring sprung this summer so the Gates went on after I called to inquier about the narrower body. Gate's confirmed that the tensioner has a better designed tension spring which is why its narrower. I'm now wondering if the original tensioner cause any stress on this pump which I also put on a new pump pulley due to an old issue.

I hate going by the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but it was the logical thing to do............

Anyone else having problems with AC Delco Water Pumps?

Thanks,

chris

cadchris
12-24-10, 03:09 AM
Here is my X-Mas, Hanakah, Kwanza, ect. gift to everyone::xlol:

Well, I came up with my own therory of what happend. Either my problem was the "El Cheapo" A/C Delco Chinese Water Pump I bought at a local parts distributor, or a failing tensioner that made the water pump go bad or a combination of both!

I'm posting this link as I've included some good info there about tensioners as it appears that the Gates Tensioners are a very good upgraded design from the O.E. that is a sealed unit and utilizes a round spring vs. a flat spring design that is inferior in design in the aftermarket:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/216719-warning-4-9l-dayco-tensioner-pulley.html

Just for the record for everyone to refer to.........This is what I've concluded in my research: Yes; A/C Delco makes Chinese entry level parts also to compete with the rest of the aftermarket parts and deceptivly use their name to pedal cheap parts to consumers through their distributors and parts dealers boxed with the A/C Delco Name! I got this from a very knowledgable customer service rep. at Rockauto.com and even from A/C Delco 800 customer service line, but of course not as candid as I state!

A/C Delco makes an Asian made pump for the 4.9's which is Delco #252-720/ gm#88926234 (this pump is considered an "All Makes" pump stated on their site and Delco said fits many years/models) and their next statement is that its Oversea's Manufactured! They also said since its NOT specifically designed for each application, there could be minor clearance problems on certain applications but will still work as a replacement) This doesn't make sence as I think the truth is closer that the Chinese Delco Pumps have poor quality control! Also this pump does NOT come with a lifetime warranty like the other aftermarket chinese pumps but all I can think of is the scene in "Tommy Boy" about the "Lifetime Guarentee on the box" analogy.

This is what it reminded me of when buying this cheaper "Quality" A/C Delco 1yr warranty pump.
RockAuto sells this for $58.

A/C Delco also makes another pump that is available at the dealers and certain distributors, like Rockauto.com: Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 (this pump is noted as "OEM Design" and I was told by both Rock and Delco that this is a better quality North American Pump which could be made in U.S., Canada, Mexico and I'm sure we've all seen Delco stickers on their parts stateing these Mfg. areas which are their premium made line. This pump is $138 at RockAuto as Rock is a deep discounter of all parts including A/C Delco. I wish I would've known this important detail as I try to buy the best parts for my Eldo but always seem to run into some issue when doing so.......... So I went with the attractive lower price Delco Pump not knowing there was a quality difference. According to both Rock and Delco, they both stated: "you get what you pay for". Whatever:annoyed: But it would've been nice if they had a better description of each pump and difference in quality!

I've found that with many "High End Name Brand Products" in different industries that have a historically premium price attached to the "Brand Name" which is defined as a high quality item that you're purchasing. But in recent years, marketing experts found they could capitalize on their "Brand Name" and use it to produce lower quality items under the brand as intro. lines inorder to intice consumers into buying into the "Brand Name" but is usually made in China as the price is much lower than their High End line. :annoyed:! Well..............got caught again on this one.....:mad2:.

It's something to consider the higher priced pump since its somewhat involved to replace that pump, and the better pump can be bought $100+++ cheaper at Rock rather than buying the same better pump at the dealer.

Unless others can post here their success stories with other aftermarket pumps and how many miles are on them, it would be interesting to know who's pumps for this application are most dureable and reliable.

Now to my tensioner issue. I've learned a very valuable lesson and recieved a great deal of knowledge from a Tech at Gates. If you ever have a failed bearing in any of your belt driven componants, it's probably due to a failed tensioner and you can't go by the old O.E. imprinted scale on the tensioner to access it's condition as that was used for belt stretch but new belts do not stretch any more. Even if you don't have a failed tensioner, I would definitely advise everyone to replace your O.E. or older aftermarket tensioner as it wreaks a silent havoc on all drive accessory componants. I only wish someone would have advised me to do this earlier so I'm replacing every tensioner on all my cars now!

Over the past few years, I've had issues with shreading Goodyear Gatorback Belts every few years (10k miles) which was and indication of something wrong but all accessories looked aligned without any pulley damage. I had a new Delco P.S. whined terribly after the install but that had to be a bad pump. Although I left it on and it quieted down after 15-20 min. but it failed suddenly 9 months later.

Bad Pump or failing tensioner????? :bigroll:

I then had an alternator bearing fail on an original O.E. Alternator 1yr later (this summer) and this car only has 85K ml.

Age or failing tensioner?????? :bang2:

I wish I would've had the Gates tensioner put on when the injectors were replaced and every thing was pulled appart, but I was going to get a Delco Tensioner since the Gates looked so different but never did and now I think maybe if the Gates tensioner was installed at that time, my Delco P.S. Pump would not have failed, nor my alternator bearing fail, and finally the Chinese Delco Water Pump that is currently making a subtle droan.

Bad Water Pump or failing tensioner???????: :wtf: :gah:

Again, the original tensioner was ran on the new waterpump for 9 mo before finally replacing the tensioner when the spring fractured inside and lost tension.

Here are 2 e-mails from Gates regarding tensioners and my suspicous belt problem which we now believe was an indication of a failing tensioner:

> Hello Chris,
>
> Unfortunate to say, but a failing tensioner assembly can cause issues within the rest of the belt drive system. Most common failures are going to be the bearing area ie - water pump bearings, alternator bearings etc.
> ACDelco does not currently carry the Gates Brand Water Pumps, as these will be a NAPA, Gates & O'Reilly product.
>
> Hope this helps -
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Ridgeway
> Automotive Product Application
>
> Gates Corporation
> 1551 Wewatta St. 8N-A7
> Denver, CO 80202
> 303-744-4608
> MR7145@Gates.com


Hello Chris –

There is definitely an issue going on within the ABDS “system” if you are having edge wear / tearing on the belt.

Alignment issues within the system will cause the belt to track off center of the pulley / bearings. With that said, pulleys are designed to have the load carried in the middle of the bearing assembly. Moving that rotating mass pressure point is going to move the pulley / bearing out of its proper designed working parameter.

Misalignment can be from parallel issues to angular issues. Yes Gates does offer the laser alignment tool.Part number 91006
Tension issues can also cause this concern. If proper tension is not being held on the system, then the belt would
be allowed to walk inward and outward as the tensioner arm moved about.
Lack of tension could cause the belt to move in one or the other directions – as goes for excessive tension.
If the tensioner is faulty, this condition could co-exist.

Mark Ridgeway - AAM
Application Research Engineer
Aftermarket Product Application
ASE Certified & Parts Specialist
Labor Claims


The best advice is replace your tensioner if any doubt of its age.......as it can cause a range of harmonics transferred to the bearings of different componants through the belt from what I read in Gates Tech Info that I posted links to in the thread above........Gates even advises in their tech info to replace your tensioner at every belt change. I'd advice to replace it if you put on ANY new componant in the belt drive system if it hasn't been replaced recently: Alternator, P.S. Pump, W. Pump, A/C Comp.

Apparantly, a tensioner also plays a role to absorb "Shock/Harmonics" in addition to automatically tensioning the belt, much like a suspension shock absorber.

I wonder if this device actually prolongs the accessories in its design or is designed for convienience of driving the accessories with 1 belt and ease of changing the belt. Years ago there were no tensioners. Did the more flexible belts inherantly abosorb harmonics? Did componants last longer then? If so, better engineered componants or if not, the technology for the better made componants was not advance?

Just some random thoughts of a new engineered design of a tensioner that can create problems if it is failing. Who knew?:hmm: :noidea:

Hope many can gain from my experiances and make better informed decissions based on this info that I wished I had knowledge of.

Again, I'm interested to hear about ANY Water Pump failures including Delco, Chinese made Delco, or other brand of Aftermarket pump failures or non-failures and mileages on each pump to build some sort of reliability stats. on Waterpumps for all to read.

Well, that concludes this research project. Now I know.

".........and thats all I have to say about that!"
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/home/blog_data/5/5/images/forestgump.jpg

Chris

the recluse
12-24-10, 07:12 PM
Good Lord, what's with the novel...:bigroll:

TL;DR,

brougham
12-26-10, 04:06 PM
I had the expensive pump last time. It lasted a couple years before it started leaking and when I took it apart it was becuase the pump was rusted out. So now it has a cheaper one on it. I don't know what the price difference is with the two pumps at rock auto unless maybe one of them is a discontinued number and they are trying to unload them.

cadchris
12-27-10, 02:58 AM
Brougham: wow, I can't believe it. I was informed and assured the more expensive pump would've been the best pump from AC Delco. As I stated above, both Rock and Delco said the cheaper pump is made over seas and Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 is an OEM Design and higher quality that is "North American Made" from vendors in (Mexico, U.S. or Canada)

Are you sure you had this Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 and could you ask where you bought it to confirm which pump you were sold? If it was leaking, then the seal went. If the pump rusted out, what coolant type did you use and mix ratio? Did you do a flush before you installed the Delco Pump? Also, did your radiator fail before the pump went bad or after? I'm just thinking of electrolysis which is an E.Z. test: http://www.usaradiator.com/information/electrolysisProblemsMount.pdf

I'm disgusted with Delco over the past few years. So many bad parts. I wonder if these parts were sabotaged by many of GM's vendors who knew they weren't getting paid after GM filed for bankruptcy........GM put so many of their U.S. vendors out of business that they didn't pay which was criminal.

To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

chris

drewsdeville
12-27-10, 12:00 PM
I also found it strange that his pump rusted out. I've seen some new 4.X pumps that ship without being painted, but still never even saw those ones rust out. Quite interesting that Broughams rusted out within a few years.

brougham
12-27-10, 03:13 PM
It was the expensive one and came from a Cadillac dealer. I've never seen one rust either unless it was old. This one started leaking because it rusted under the paint so the gasket couldn't seal it. It started on the inside surface of the pump and moved out from there. It had the proper antifreeze mix and all that and the rad was never changed. My guess is that they changed suppliers or what they are making them out of to save money but are still slapping the Delco name on it with the jacked up price.

the recluse
12-27-10, 07:41 PM
To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

chris

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate a good write up on parts; but in most cases something like that can be condensed and abridged (I did go back and read it). Something long winded like that will lose 98% of the people you're trying to inform.

Now to your argument on parts and their production...

It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old.

Case in point with the rusting out water pumps, could it be use of an inferior steel (a Chinese staple for maximizing production costs); one say with less carbon or nickel? More iron content means faster oxidation means less expected functionality and can be produced with less beefy machinery.

Chinese parts have been the wave of the future for the past 20 years now, and have really taken off in the last 5 years or so with the US market going primarily oversees. Nobody really cares (as far as manufactures, I'm know as a consumer I do) if you have a gripe over longevity vs cost of parts. From a business perspective, they're all trying to get you for as much as they can by wrapping (anything) in a "brand name" anyway :duck:

So I apologize if I came across as a dick, and I understand just what you were trying to do, but it seemed pretty overwhelming and lengthy for the average joe :holycrap:

cadchris
12-27-10, 10:42 PM
Fair enough; "the recluse",......... just trying to keep the readers well informed without the question of quick advise shot by the hip that many give.

I saw you posted here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/209443-ugh-watter-pump-gasket.html in post #3, that you've replaced 6 of these pumps? All different cars? Or repeats on the same car?

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.

To: Brougham, which pump mfg did you go with and how many miles do you have on it? Also, can you check your coolant for electrolysis with a meter as outlined here: http://www.usaradiator.com/information/electrolysisProblemsMount.pdf

I'm very curious if you had stray current attacking that pump body even with the proper mix. But you should have had a rad or heatercore go first. Test with the car off then with ALL accessories on including the break lights, flashers ect. What coolant type were you using and use now?

Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metalergy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.

If I had my old good water pump and P.S. pump that I replaced as preventative maintanance when taking everything appart to do injectors, I put those old parts back on.

I hope many will post their success or failures of Water Pump Brands they used to gain some stats.

chris

the recluse
12-27-10, 11:39 PM
Fair enough; "the recluse",......... just trying to keep the readers well informed without the question of quick advise shot by the hip that many give.

I saw you posted here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/209443-ugh-watter-pump-gasket.html in post #3, that you've replaced 6 of these pumps? All different cars? Or repeats on the same car?

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.

Did not note mfg of said water pumps. One was for a 4.5 in a '90 Eldo I had, the end of that pump came when my wife wrecked the car 40,000+ after I had changed it.

Another was for the 4.9 in my present Eldo that I changed when the cooling system was letting go. The car had sat almost a year and a half and the sediment was bad in the block and radiator so I replaced ALL aspects of the cooling system as a precautionary measure.

I replaced the water pump again when I had to replace the headgaskets on the same motor some 30,000+ miles later. I did this because the motor was out and the $50 spent seemed like a good insurance policy. It was AC Delco.

The other WP's were in various other 4.5 and 4.9's over the years, so no known information to present, however, for quite a few years after the installations I had no go backs pertaining to those units.



Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metallurgy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.

I believe that this is the reason why parts houses change their suppliers(or the same suppliers change their lines) at least every 5 or so years, it keeps them from having to honor "lifetime" warranties. This has happened to me on MANY occasions..."No, we don't carry that brand (or that line) anymore...so we don't/won't honor manufacturer "A"s warranty with manufacturer "B"s product (line)".

In the end I feel it's energy lost in a pursuit of knowledge when the seemingly obvious is that corporations are out to screw you and the only thing you need to know is that it's coming, one way or another....:canttalk:

Good luck in your endeavors.

cadchris
12-28-10, 02:27 AM
Yehp, I hear you. The same happened to me on my 91 Brougham and I even had the invoice jammed in my glove box for 9yrs on this lifetime pump and I called them on it just for the hell of it since I was getting a lot of bad Delco which they were giving me a hard time on too!!!!!!!!!! You should've seen their faces! They were moaning, "this is a 9yr old pump" I said "yes with a lifetime warranty"! They hadn't carried Airtex for years and they said the same to me that they no longer carry the brand so I was S.O.L. But they know me well since we have a corp. account so I was pretty mad and didn't want their shitty house brand pump after I researched it but they were eventually willing to replace it with that house pump that I didn't wan't.

This has happened many times on a lot of parts so I always get in touch with the district rep which was AirTex in this case. I couldn't believe that the rep arranged a factory replacement to me in I think 1-2 days sent from the factory this summer. Easiest factory rep. I ever dealt with for warranty. From my conversation with Airtex, they have been overtaken by these parts buying groups that parts store belong to of Chinese Vendors,....something like that as I can't remember the details, but my parts house was part of this now for profit margin, so Airtex has been very easy for warranty their pumps directly and I'm sure even their whole line. Still not sure about quality but they give the assurance their pumps are better than most out there.

Thanks for the reply,
I'm hoping for some other's to chime in with good or bad experiences on different brands of waterpumps for these 4.9's.

Regards,
chris

cadchris
12-29-10, 11:01 PM
Well here's an update and I'll keep it short!

:banghead: :xcry: :banghead: :xcry: :cursin: :bomb:

I should have left the original O.E. Pump on that was still good with 89K miles!:hmm:

I decided to call my parts distributor again, on that A/C Delco Pump they sold me last year because when I gave them the 2 part numbers, one for the N. American made Delco pump (#251-595) they told me they never had it in their system and said they only sold the cheaper Delco Chinese "WonTon" Pump (#252-720), so I presumed I was sold the cheaper pump that I posted above.

But NOW, they no longer carry any Delco Pumps! Hey: "the recluse", how about that? :hmm:

The mgr there told me that everyone's getting rid of Delco because they are the worst for the Vendor to process warranty claims and the vendor ends up eating the part because Delco Reps make it as difficult as possible and want tons of paper work, customers reciept, and if purchased at wholesale for one's own use, no warranty! I've run into this even at the dealer and they have to fudge paperwork to get Delco to warranty parts! Unbelievable!

I've heard the Delco Dist. Reps go through and have each part tested and if it tests good, charge it back to the parts distributor. Almost looks like the Delco District Reps work on bonuses to deniy warrantly claims.

So I had them look up my invoice,..... and they infact sold me the expensive Delco Pump(#251-595) @ $140.

So that better Delco pump currently has a bearing failure with no fluid leakage so I presume the seal it still good, maybe......., and the pump has about 8K ml. which was installed in Aug. of 2010.

So it looks like "Brogham" had his expensive Delco Pump rust out and now mine with a bearing failure........I don't know who's pump to go with now? All aftermarket pumps will be Asian made as discussed previously except for the more expensive Delco# which is now starting to have a reputation.

Maybe I'll try a NAPA pump or I'm hoping Airtex/ASC demands better quality control which is still a chinese pump as seen here by their overseas vendor listing: See vendor #20 down on this page if your curious: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/water-pump-for-cadillac.html

I don't know what else to say on the subject other than, :wtf: and :wtf2: !
And if your original pump is good, don't change it for preventative manitanece!

chris

brougham
12-30-10, 03:51 AM
Well sucks. I don't know what make the pump is I'm using now it was whatever the parts store had. It probably doesn't make much of a difference because chances are there is only one company actually making these things and every other company just buys it and throws it in their own box. I changed it back in the spring.
Funny you should mention the Brougham water pump because I did it on that car this year too. It was leaking after taking it out of storage. Between both cars the one on the Deville is actually easier to change.

HUF
12-30-10, 07:24 PM
I have an ACDelco pump bought five years ago for my 91 Seville. Still new in box. Let me know if you want it. I have an extra Felpro gasket for it as well.

cadchris
12-30-10, 11:16 PM
HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!! :hmm: :bonkers: :rofl: :shtf:


I'm going to track down the local Delco Rep. tomorrow?
:punch:

I'm not sure what the hell to do? I wish I had the time and energy to come up with some modification to eliminate the factory pump, fabricate an external coolant cross-over in place of the pump, reconfigure a different belt and/or alternative drive belt route, and use one of those performance external inline electric coolant pumps like this one from Stewart:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EMP-E558AR/

Now that I came up with that "dream" I think maybe it was done but I many be wrong........I remember coming accross one of the Fiero Guys or someone here with a Cad who did a build up and showed photos and relocated the 4.9 Alternator to I think make room for a supercharger or something that the Alternator on top was in the way of. I'm sure this guy put the alternator where the A/C Comp. was and didn't use A/C.........or something like that. I'm now wondering if that guy also eliminated his factory waterpump in this project and used an inline electric pump.

I know for the Acura/Honda's there's a factory elimation kit for the o.e. pump and uses one of those inline electric pumps on the upper rad. hose which is a slick setup!

Anyone know what project I'm referring to on that 4.9 build up?

I'll have to go look.

If I have to go back with a Delco Pump, I'm wondering how flexible RockAuto is with their Delco Warranties since my local warehouses are being a bunch of jerks and upholding the 1yr Delco warranty policy. I'm thinking that Rock may have Delco by the balls and may give better customer service but I'd have to call and ask them how long past the Delco Warranty they'll replace the pump if it fails.

I wish I knew what pump to go with for reliability?

Chris

cadchris
12-31-10, 01:05 AM
I guess I was thinking of this thread but I still think someone put an electric inline waterpump on a 4.9 and bypassed the org. pump. I wonder if the orig. pump can stay in place, remove the impeller, and bypass the pulley with a different belt route and use an inline electric pump? Problem solved??????:noidea:

This link has tons of good info and has links to some older high perf. builds incuding the Alternator Relocation but still used the orig. pump configuration:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=7

Somewhere I've seen photos of a "jewl" of a 4.9 engine that was chromed out with red accents and the photo was taken when on a motor stand. It was a real work of art! It was red with all aluminum smoothed an polished including the mageasum valve covers with red paint accents. I'm thinking that motor was the one that maybe had some waterpump modification and the one I was thinking of. Anyone know which site that motor is on?

I thought it was this site but it wasn't: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49a.html

chris

HUF
12-31-10, 01:36 AM
HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!! :hmm: :bonkers: :rofl: :shtf:
Chris
No warranty, I guess. ACD# 252-720 GM#88926234 "Made in USA from components mfg in China". The extra Fel-Pro gasket is made in USA,

cadchris
12-31-10, 02:13 AM
Thanks HUF, Very strange as I would've thought it was a Chineese assembled pump with parts from China too. I have to find out what the expensive pump says on it and where its made for the hell of it.

Maybe, "Made in USA by the Night Shift! :alchi:

I'd love to bypass that pump somehow and not have to worry about what quality I'm getting or where it's made. :annoyed:

chris

cadchris
12-31-10, 03:51 AM
This is the motor I was talking about. It is the 3rd and 4th photo in this thread below and is a 4.5 Allante motor. Not sure if anyone has seen this motor on another site but I have an e-mail into the Fiero Expert over at Fiero Addiction who can probably give me good advise on the waterpump issues ect.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

chris

UPDATE: My computer wasn't displaying all of the photos on that site above yesterday. That site was infact the site I had seen the photo of that motor which is a actually a 4.9 with an Allante Intake/Injection and the guy mentioned a the future use of an electric pump but he showed a pic. of a HEMI Mezeier Pump:

See Photo 3-4 here: http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

and the same thread pg. 5 for another pic of the 4.9 with Allante Intake:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=5

Lots of good performance mods on that thread like custom fabricated headers, double roller timing chain set, Perf. Delt Cams, and smaller gear reduction/ more powerful starter mod. ect.

The Electric Remote Waterpump still seems like a good idea but would take some messing around to either:
#1. remove the impeller and run the belt on the pulley like an idler pulley, or.....

#2. remove the pulley and cut off the pulley mount and come up with a new belt drive route, since the 1st way the belt would still be tensioning and turning the pulley of a new replacement pump and the risk of bearing/seal failure could still happen even w/o the impeller.

I wonder if removing the impeller; coolant would flow corectly through the pump houseing with a remote inline electric pump?

It would still be great to turn a known good pump into just a belt idler and again remove the internal impeller. I wonder what the Horsepower Gain would be if eliminating the impeller or pump pulley?

Last post of the YEAR 2010!!!!!!!!!

cadchris
01-01-11, 01:15 AM
Yep, had to make that post above before 2011!:bouncy:

Forgot to add this link below which is my idea to duplicate of how Mezeire makes an idler in place of a waterpump for the Honda's but I think one would have to use an orig. 4.9 pump with better seals/bearings instead of taking a chance on a replacement pump and use it w/o the impeller: http://www.meziere.com/ps-1333-1269-wpk50026.aspx

I'll have to run my ideas by the British V8 Forum and Fiero Forums who swap and modify the Cadillac 4.9's and post my findings back here?

I also got an e-mail from "Allante Source" and he had problems with the cheaper Delco pump that failed in less than 20k miles and his orig. was still good but decided to replace it when doing a Timing Cover Gasket. He also had one replaced by the dealer under extended warranty back in 1999 and now has 130k on that pump w/o a problem

So "the recluse" made a very valid comment above when he stated:
"It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old."

Hopefully others again will share their experiences with their replacement pumps good or bad!


Also came accross this TSB by Airtex/ASC that may help anyone reading this thread:
http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Cadillac-Water-Pump-Installation.pdf
http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wp627.pdf

Talked to Permatex for when my bad Delco pump gets replaced, and they recomended using their Hylomar #85249 on both sides of the gasket or a better product w/o using a gasket, (metal to metal) use #22071 which may help if their is dimpleing in the timing cover as described in the TSB's above.
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_Hylomar_Universal_Blue_Racing_Formul a_Gasket_Dressing_Flange_Sealant.htm

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/Permatex_Water_Pump_Thermostat_RTV_Silicone_Gasket .htm

In the past, I've always used their Indian Shelac or:
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_High_Tack_Spray-A-Gasket_Sealant.htm

Which is going to be really hard to remove. Hopefully their gasket remover will work or can recommend some other solevant.

Happy New Year,

chris

cadchris
07-27-11, 10:36 PM
UPDATE:

Well, just thought I'd drop in and give an update on which pump I went with.

After thorougly researching aftermarket water pumps for the 4.9 above,,,,,............and if you got this far reading through my long posts above,.............. I decided to go with an A1 Cardone Pump "Select Series" #55-16111 that I got from Rockauto.com

After speaking and e-mailing Cardone Technical Services, they gave me a Tech. Bullitin about the troublesome 4.9 pumps from the O.E. aftermarket a.k.a "AC Delco" and other aftermarket pumps in which they redesigned both their Reman. Pump bearing in pump #58329 and eventually upgraded their "Select" Pump line bearing for the #5516111 pumps.

See Link:
http://www.cardone.com/English/Club/...%2058-0008.pdf


I was confused and e-mailed Cardone a few times on which pump had the newer bearing design and this is what I was told by Cardone Tech Service:

"The Select Pump has the redesigned bearing which is one-piece, double-row bearing. All the Select units have this bearing. "

Raymond L. Fitzgerald, Jr.
Senior Technical Service Representative
ASE Certified Cardone

"Good Morning Chris,

The redesigned bearing on our reman pump was introduced some 10 years ago. This bearing included a ball and a roller bearing with a longer housing.
Our Select - 55-16111 has the same length housing but a ball and ball bearings rather than ball/roller."

Ray Will ASE Certified Cardone

I just wish I had my original O.E. pump that I decided to replace as preventative maintance because I can only wonder how well of a design it actually was. If anyone can confirm they have an original pump and it has failed, it would be interesting to take it appart to see how the O.E. bearing is made. From what I researched, most of the replacement pump bearings can't take the torsional loads of the accessory drive and fail early like my expensive Canadian made Delco #251-595. I'm still tempted to take that pump appart but when I get around to it, I'm going to get in touch with my local Delco Rep to see if he'll give me a credit.


Hope this helps someone to make a better Water Pump Choice for the 4.9's

ehall
07-27-11, 11:30 PM
I bought the $50 Delco pump for my 4.9 project. The belt rides off the back of the top of the pulley and rubs against the housing. We are pretty sure the root problem is that the pump housing is stamped wrong, resulting in the pulley axis riding at an angle. Poor stamping is typical of Chinese parts

Let us know how the Cardone part works out. I want to try the NAPA brand myself (used them for my Jeep engine swap), but it will be a while.

RippyPartsDept
07-27-11, 11:47 PM
i haven't sold one of these in a long long time (years?) but we never had any problems...
always sold the expensive acdelco (oem) pump

apparently times have changed...
if i can remember (and get the free time) i'll check into this and see what i would recommend for a replacement pump

drewsdeville
07-27-11, 11:59 PM
Never went as far to analyyze bearing types and stuff, but I replaced the original pump in my '95 with an AC Delco somewhere around 145k and lasted till I sold it.

Replaced the pump on my '90 around 160k with a Cardone unit and am at 185k now. So far, so good.

A relative has 195k on his ORIGINAL pump from '89, still going as a daily driver :worship:

I myself never really noticed any quality issues with these pumps across brands. Typically the factory pumps fail around 100k-150k, which really isn't out of line. After that, replacements seem more frequent, but it sounds like it's more from poor workmanship than the pumps themselves as they are generally gasket failures.

cadchris
07-29-11, 01:23 AM
Ehall; From what I remember in my research, Napa Pumps for our 4.9's will be either Gates or Airtex/ASC and from what I could tell, there's no easy way to determine who's pump you will be getting.

Here's a TSB on coolant leaks from Airtex/ASC I just came across just so people know when replacing the pump:
http://airtexwaterpumps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Cadillac-Water-Pump-Installation1.pdf

I just checked the TSB from Cardone that I posted and it didn't work. Here is the Cardone TSB Main Page and scroll down to: 58-329 Cadillac Water Pump Bearing - PT 58-0008
http://cardone.com/english/club/Products/PUMPS/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/

Here's the direct link again on Cardones improved bearing design for their Reman. and Select Pumps: http://cardone.com/english/club/Products/PUMPS/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/PT%2058-0008.pdf

cadchris
07-29-11, 01:27 AM
I attached the file from Cardone because the hyper-link sometimes doesn't work when posting.

http://cardone.com/english/club/Products/PUMPS/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/PT%2058-0008.pdf

daniel58
08-03-11, 11:09 PM
This is interesting about the poor quality of AC Delco parts. I do a lot of auto repair on all makes and I have been running into problems with NAPA, and Autozone parts being defective right out of the box or shortly thereafter also. There was a time (in your grandfathers day) when you could diagnose and repair cars by replacing parts one at a time and feel secure that this part is new so we can eliminate that. But no more I guess, with the flight of manufacturing to communist China and the poor quality control and for that matter accountabilty with the distance and all. The only recourse we have is to learn how to check those parts right out of the box, before we install them but sometimes this is not possible as in this case of premature failure of AC Delco waterpumps. OEM parts are junk too!!!!

brougham
08-04-11, 01:18 AM
I've only had one fail because of the bearing. Lately it's because as I said in an earlier post the bigger metal part of it rusts out.

Another junk delco part is the idle speed motor. That died on me again today.

the recluse
08-05-11, 08:01 PM
Update of my own:

Another water pump failed on my 4.9 after only approximately 10,000...bearing failure. Replaced it with a brand new Cardone part from Advanced Auto for around $55.00. Who knows as to longevity, but 10,000 miles sucks for a water pump...just saying.

When removed, no problem with rust.

daniel58
08-07-11, 03:28 AM
We can add Napa Legend batteries to the list, just had one fail at less tha 9 months and I got it via a warranty battery that was 6 months old. I'm thinking of trying Optima next if I ever get these fuel injectors sorted out.

dennis93coupe
08-07-11, 02:56 PM
My experience with Optima, not that good. I'd just try a different brand the next time besides Optima. And yes, the most recent Napa batteries I bought for a fleet of trucks and construction equipment were crap. Bought a batch of AC Delco from a battery only vender and even some from Auto Zone and have had no problems with them.

cadchris
08-11-11, 01:46 AM
Update of my own:

Another water pump failed on my 4.9 after only approximately 10,000...bearing failure. Replaced it with a brand new Cardone part from Advanced Auto for around $55.00. Who knows as to longevity, but 10,000 miles sucks for a water pump...just saying.

When removed, no problem with rust.

THE RECLUSE: What pump did you have that only lasted 10K?

As I mentioned before, if anyone hasn't replaced their original tensioner, best to replace it with the new Gates design tensioner to try and prevent bearing failures in ALL componants in the accessory drive. (Alt, W.P., P.S. Pump, Idler.)

From my research, and own experiance, I can only wonder if in fact the failing tensioner caused all my problems of a failed P.S. Pump Bearing, Alt Bearing, and WaterPump Bearing on a new waterpump that was replaced as preventative maintanance all within a a year or so.

cadchris
06-07-12, 05:14 AM
:bonkers:SORRY FOR THE LONG POST AGAIN, BUT THIS IS DEFINITELY WORTH THE READ.....


Well, after all my research to find a better water-pump,my 2nd and new "Cardone Select" water-pump failed within 1yr. 2 months with less than 5000 miles on it. I even did a very aggressive flush using the old GM Oxalic Acid flush/neutralizer procedure and according to the GM TSB to be sure the system was very clean and installed a new rad. I then used conventional EG Green Coolant and Royal Purple "Purple Ice" coolant additive/lubricant.

I really thought the Cardone Select new pump would be the best after they issued a very specific TSB about this pump and speaking to 3 Cardone Techs about the pump design.
Here it the new TSB link as the old links I posted are no longer active:
http://my.cardone.com/techdocs/PT%2058-0008.pdf

CARDONE wants me to send in the pump for "Lab Analysis" to determine why their pump failed, but I'm sure I won't get a straight answer of what the results are.

I even installed a 2nd new GATES Tensioner with this pump because I thought the other new tensioner was over-tensioning the drive belt system and other components to make my old Delco pump fail within 1.5 yrs and under 10k ml.

I may do some sort of a torque ft. lb test comparing the Gates Tensioner to a new Delco Tensioner just for the h'll of it. I'm going to buy a digital wrench adapter like this to do a comparsion:
http://www.eastwood.com/wireless-electronic-torque-adapter.html

Or Craftsman, but I think it's discontinued:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/torque/torque.htm

I spoke to Gates today and they insist there is no problems with their tensioners. I just can't understand what is causing the bearing to fail on now 2 different pumps.

I posted this idea before and are now considering it but I have some concerns. I've been talking with Stewart Componants Mfg. who makes an Electric In-Line Pump.
http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=E558A&Category_Code=ElectPump

I would re-rout the belt and no longer drive the water pump pulley and go from the Crank directly to the A/C Pulley. I'm just concerned there may not be enough belt surface area to drive the A/C Compressor going from 75% belt wrap around the A/C pulley to about 25%-30% belt wrap when re-routing belt. I'm afraid the belt may slip when the A/C engages with so little contact area.

I sent some photos of the 4.9 water-pump design and wimpy impeller design to a Tech at Stewart and he agreed that the impeller should be removed for better flow if I decide to use their In-Line Electric Pump but he said it may still flow well with it left on. They actually want me to send the pump in to see if they can get a better impeller to fit this pump, but that will not address the bearing/seal issues everyone seems to have.

The other problem is clearance to even get the pump to fit in the area between the lower rad. outlet to the water-pump rear housing inlet............Very little room especially with the tranny lines in the way which can be fitted with braided line, but there may not be enough hose length on each end of the pump to absorb engine movement.

I've got some old injuries and replacing the stock pump again really does me in...............

I wish I never took my OEM pump off with 80k ml. but I was doing other repairs in the area and it just made sense to replace it as preventative maintenance............"so if it ain't broke, don't fix it".....:banghead:

I found others out there who are also having problems with after-market pumps:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/13096-replacing-water-pump-too-often.html
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1129
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=27639

Anyone else having pump failures when using newer tensioners which maybe the cause??????????? :annoyed::crying:

Anyone having aftermarket pump failures PERIOD?

I wonder if I can somehow verify if pumps in the junk yard are original O.E.'s and not replacements. Does anyone have an old O.E. pump laying around to examine for markings???????
I would rather take a chance on a used O.E. pump than buying any new pump at this rate.


MY WARNING TOO EVERYONE:
DON'T REPLACE YOUR GM/OEM WATER-PUMP IF IT'S NOT MAKING NOISE!
YOU'LL BE SORRY LIKE MYSELF AND OTHERS!

dennis93coupe
06-07-12, 09:40 AM
My replacement pump looked exactly the same as the new one. I used the old tensioner, old idler pulleys, same pulley on the water pump, same AC compressor, same alternator, same crank damper pulley. I only replaced my water pump because the gasket was leaking, it had 103k and thought for good measure go ahead and replace. My past experience with parts store new or used pumps whether it was water pump, power steering pump, fuel pumps was not good in the past for a fleet of trucks I managed. I started buying OEM pumps and the problems went away. BTW, the pump I bought from a dealer part number was 12369484 and came with a gasket and that part number might have changed. I don't know the price on it now, not cheap then. You might shop around. I only had to do mine once.

Faded Crest
06-07-12, 10:01 AM
Chris, to have repeated failures of a water pump is very strange. While I agree that most new parts suck, I have never heard of a single part failing that many times.

I'm in a frustrating situation myself right now. I have an a/c compressor that works fine but is leaking out of a rear plug. I do not want a new one because of the reasons you have given, but can't find the correct o-ring to repair my current compressor.

dennis93coupe
06-07-12, 10:15 AM
What is that leaking compressor on? You have over 6 Cadillacs in your profile.

Faded Crest
06-07-12, 10:33 AM
^^^ Ha! You sure are an early bird, Dennis!

It's on the '98 Eldorado. There is a port for a pressure pop-off valve that is leaking. Cadillac doesn't use a valve, it's just a plug... but it is leaking. The good news is that I just spoke with a local Cadillac guru a minute ago and he laughed. Apparently I'm not the first with that problem. :rolleyes: Fortunately he said that NAPA sells a new cap and washer... :thumbsup: Whew! I was not very excited about a new compressor given their notorious track record.

dennis93coupe
06-07-12, 10:56 AM
Yeah, everyday 4:00 AM rain or shine 7 days a week. :cool:

Faded Crest
06-07-12, 11:22 AM
4:00? I used to do 4:30. I need to get back to it... Got so much more done! My problem sticking with it was the fact that social activities often went past my 9:30 bedtime that would allow for that kind of wake-up time. :yawn: :coffee:

cadchris
06-07-12, 12:53 PM
It looks like these pumps are failing no matter what mfg. so they must be sourcing the same Chinese seals/bearings/components. The 1st pump that failed was the more expensive Delco 251-595 / gm#12369484 which is stamped "MADE IN CANADA". Delco also makes the cheaper pump # 252-720{#88926234}. The expensive Delco lasted 1.5yrs. under 10k ml. Now the CARDONE SELECT "improved bearing design" failed at 1yr with under 5000ml.

If you check out the other forum links I posted above; other people are also having failures on after-market pumps. In post #9 here, this guy did his pump "4 times and once in the Marriot Parking Lot"!
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=27639

I'm so disgusted..................

chris

dennis93coupe
06-07-12, 01:32 PM
Are you having problems with the heater core and or radiator? Maybe your problem is starting on the coolant side. Are you filling coolant with tap water or distilled mixed with antifreeze?

cadchris
06-07-12, 02:58 PM
Repeated message below:

cadchris
06-07-12, 03:02 PM
I've used Distilled water, heater core disconnected for years as I'm in Florida, new rad. 50/50 Ethylene Glycol Green Coolant and this time around, I used Royal Purple/Purple Ice additive/pump conditioner.

Either its inferior designed pumps, or the new tensioners are made with too much tension. That's my best guess.

My original oem GM pump was still good with 80,000 miles and a somewhat neglected cooling system
I just decided to change it out when replacing other parts and thought it made sense to replace it.

This really sucks..:gah:..:banghead::bricks::bricks: This is a good one::shark:

cadchris
06-09-12, 02:13 AM
I found this.........more past members with more bad aftermarket Water-pump replacements:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/215543-water-pump-4-9-a.html#post2990442

Same old same old here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/168395-4-9-water-pump.html

And here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/13614-turns-out-i-have-bad-water.html
Maybe the older Delco Pumps were better than the 1st one I bought.

Also here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/223803-emergancy-water-pump-replace-went-wrong.html

Another 4.9 water-pump story but with some nice photos.....He used the same Permtex Gasket Adheasive that I also use....... I just wonder how he made out with Crazy Glueing the impeller plate back on. That's a very different impeller design also...........plastic. I never saw a pump like that yet.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/94998-just-finished-my-4-9-water.html

Can anyone say "Class Action against ALL 4.9 Water Pump Mfgs."!!!!!!
This is on my to-do list if I win the MegaMillions!:want::rant2:
I'll teach the after-market.

Hmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmm.

Faded Crest
06-09-12, 03:49 AM
I have a spare brand new Delco water pump for a 4.9, but after reading this, maybe I should throw it in the trash. :lol:

cadchris
06-09-12, 11:10 AM
I have a spare brand new Delco water pump for a 4.9, but after reading this, maybe I should throw it in the trash. :lol:

Faded Crest: Approx. how old is that Delco Pump you have????

Is it the more expensive Delco 251-595 / gm#12369484 which is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?
Delco also makes the cheaper "Wong Tong" pump # 252-720{#88926234}.

Any identifying marks on it.............please let us know........very curious?:hmm:

If your's is older that 10yrs old, it may be a better quality pump all around.:yup:

I wish I could find a NOS 4.9 pump in a GM O.E. Orig. Equip. Box. What happened to NOS parts for Cads. of this era????..........all the classic car guys can still get NOS parts. I guess they made so much volume back then and considering the numbers of those classic cars made and still on the road and there seems to still be NOS part available. All were left with is Delco which I've had other Delco parts fail quickly too.:gah:

drewsdeville
06-09-12, 01:23 PM
Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).

cadchris
06-09-12, 01:30 PM
Looks like my idea for using a Stewart Electric In-Line Performance Pump won't work. There is just no room anywhere since its required to be mounted close to the rad and low to be gravity fed. I've attached a C.A.D. Drawing in case it could help others with different cad. models other than my 91 Eldo. who may want to do the mod. This would definitely work with the Fiero guys retrofitting our 4.9's into their cars. If I got it to fit, I'd still do a test and run the old pump w/o the thermostat and dumping the water in a 5gal bucket, take a reading of how much water the original pumped moves, then do the same with the electric pump with the original pump's impeller still installed to make sure it meets or exceeds the same volume. If not, the pump comes off and the impeller gets cut off for better flow with an electric pump.

The Electric Pump is 6 1/4" L x 4.5" W at the body and 6 1/4 total width with the top mounted electronic module. This pump is also $400 but I'd buy it if I could make it fit! They make an improved all composite pump with the same dimensions.
http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=E558A&Category_Code=ElectPump

Very little room down by the lower rad and rad. oil cooler lines would need converted to braided stainless and re-routed w/ 90deg fittings on the rad. ports. Maybe I'll see if the rad/condensor can be moved forward but I doubt it. No room under the battery because of the cruise control vacuum canister which I may take a closer look at and get rid of it, but having to cut 2 large holes in the wheel well, I may run into the subframe/uni-body.

I thought about even mounting this Elect. Pump in front of the rad/condensor but no room to bring the hoses back around.......I'll have to look again. Mounting it on the drivers side of the engine compartment doesn't look good either because of the rad. fan shroud and the close proximity of the exhaust manifold and pipes but those could be wrapped with header wrap as would the rad. hoses. I always wanted a new performance smaller rad. fan anyway.........nothing is going to be easy and my clock is ticking as this pump is getting loud with every mile.

I did at least confirm through "4 Seasons" who is a major A/C Compressor Mfg. and there engineers said the HR6 compressor could very well be run with only 25% belt wrap like other cars that use the HR6 compressor and our Cads really have over-kill with 75% belt wrap around the A/C Pulley. So by-passing the waterpump pulley with a shorter belt re-routed from the crank pulley to the A/C pulley should would work without the belt slipping when the A/C engages........

Meizere ,another performance pump mfg., makes many different types of Elect. Pumps. Remote pumps and even rad. mounted pumps but you need aluminum tanks to weld on the fitting. This would probably be the best solution with the confined space but a custom rad and this thing would run well over $1000 but it beats changing pumps every 5000ml and yearly!

I wish I could really get into this deeply, but I'm down to my last working car with a ton of back problems to keep screwing around.
http://www.meziere.com/displaycategory.aspx?id=244,381 Rad. Mounted Electric Pump
Styles:
http://www.meziere.com/ps-790-0-WP116R.aspx Remote Elect. Pump1
http://www.meziere.com/ps-892-0-WP136S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump2
http://www.meziere.com/ps-1132-0-WP316R.aspx Remote Elect. Pump3
http://www.meziere.com/ps-1148-0-WP336S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump4
http://www.meziere.com/ps-1150-0-WP337S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump5
http://www.meziere.com/ps-1178-0-WP365C.aspx Remote Elect. Pump6

I'm still going to set up some tests with an electronic-digital torque meter comparing the measured tension of Delco Tensioners, old OEM styles from the junkyard, and the current Gates tensioners to see if the problems are bad specs in the tensioner-aftermarket and something got lost in re-engineering of these tensioners and they are applying too much tension to the Accessory Drive Belt System causing bearing failures of these pumps.

What an ordeal............... :hmm::bonkers:

Hope these ideas are informative.............sooner or later, we're all going to be replacing pumps every year which is why I started the "long winded thread" to document what after-market pumps are failing, if they still have the original tensioner or an after-market tensioner, and who still has the original OEM pumps/miles on it and if they have an original long style tensioner, or after-market tensioner.

I hope everyone gets where I'm going with this mystery.............or shall I say "misery"!

cadchris
06-09-12, 01:44 PM
Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).

Do you still have the original old "Long Style Tensioner" or the shorter redesigned aftermarket tensioner?

I agree, a gasket leak is different from a contaminated pump seal and weeping a ton of coolant out the weep holes. The weep holes are there to normally drain some coolant and expanding air from seal expansion when hot. If the weep holes were not there, then expanding air pressure with small amounts of coolant would push past the seal.

I also agree with you about the installation......... Only use the better Felpro gaskets, and use the Permatex Gasket Spray Adhesive #80065, 80064, or 80697 on both sides of the gasket surface. No leaks for me, but a pain to clean. Permatex discontinued their old gasket remover #80646 due to the EPA and its really hard to find now but I bought 2 cans last year at Advance that were still on the shelf and were not pulled. That old product litterally melted the old gasket off and burned like hell too if you got it on you......and it reminded me of paint stripper from the burn and ammonia odor. It also stated to not get it on paint. I really think that paint stripper in an aerosol can, found at the hardware store or Home Depot, is the same formula which I'll have to use. I may compare some MSDS 's as compared to the old Permatex product. I heard their new Gasket Remover is not good at all.

drewsdeville
06-09-12, 01:49 PM
Both are original tensioners.

cadchris
06-09-12, 02:10 PM
Both are original tensioners.


"AHHH HAAA!.........Now we are getting some where"......someone or something is meu'dering these pi'mps and I the original Inspector Clouseau are going to get to the bottom of it you foo's!
http://www.trussel.com/detfic/murdera.gif

I'm really thinking the after-market tensioners are made with too much tension and "Meur'dering" these pumps! Just a theory.........

cadchris
06-09-12, 02:42 PM
Do you remember which generic pump you purchased at Advanced Auto? Next time your there, can you ask them to pull up your profile to see the part# or the make? Now that I think of it, I guess the tensioner on your 95 was not bad. Did you buy the cheap $60 Delco Pump or the more expensive $150 pump that is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?

Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).

Faded Crest
06-09-12, 02:57 PM
I wish I could find a NOS 4.9 pump in a GM O.E. Orig. Equip. Box. What happened to NOS parts for Cads. of this era????..........all the classic car guys can still get NOS parts. I guess they made so much volume back then and considering the numbers of those classic cars made and still on the road and there seems to still be NOS part available. All were left with is Delco which I've had other Delco parts fail quickly too.:gah:

I'm not surprised at all that there are no NOS service parts for those cars... They used the 4.9 for 5 years and there are still zillions of them on the road. All the old stock most likely got used up which is what necessitates cheapy Chinese parts.

BTW, I got this pump by accident from Rock Auto only recently. They sent me 2 water pumps when I actually ordered one water pump and one steering pump. I sold the car anyway, so I got an extra part.

Glad to know they might be problematic. I still have a 4.9 car and so does my Dad. If/When one of those pumps go bad, I'll use this one and report back if there is trouble.

cadchris
06-09-12, 03:25 PM
Just curious....what does your "freebie" Delco pump say on the box or is it stamped "MADE IN CANADA" on the opposite side of the pumps body opposite of the impeller.


I'm not surprised at all that there are no NOS service parts for those cars... They used the 4.9 for 5 years and there are still zillions of them on the road. All the old stock most likely got used up which is what necessitates cheapy Chinese parts.

BTW, I got this pump by accident from Rock Auto only recently. They sent me 2 water pumps when I actually ordered one water pump and one steering pump. I sold the car anyway, so I got an extra part.

Glad to know they might be problematic. I still have a 4.9 car and so does my Dad. If/When one of those pumps go bad, I'll use this one and report back if there is trouble.

drewsdeville
06-09-12, 03:28 PM
Do you remember which generic pump you purchased at Advanced Auto? Next time your there, can you ask them to pull up your profile to see the part# or the make? Now that I think of it, I guess the tensioner on your 95 was not bad. Did you buy the cheap $60 Delco Pump or the more expensive $150 pump that is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?

I have all of the receipts to these parts - it's a matter of finding them. I believe the Delco pump was the cheaper one. Both of the Advance Auto pumps were the cheapest they had.

These are only examples on MY personal cars, but I've installed pumps on others. I've come to the conclusion that, in the case of these water pumps AND other belt driven accessories including AC compressors and alternators, Delco is NOT the way to go. Far more frequent bearing failures on them (new tensioner or not). I've had far more postive results using the cheap aftermarkets :bonkers:

cadchris
06-09-12, 10:01 PM
Wow........that's a little odd. I'm still wondering about the wrong specs from OEM on the after-market tensioners, or just crummy bearings that everyone is using.

I even thought maybe some idiot company in China has specified the wrong type of bearing pump seals and is selling these to the pump mfgs in China and they are possibly not resistant against nor compatible with either High or Low Silicate "Green" Ethylene Glycol like the original OEM Pump seals were and now the seals are swelling allowing coolant to contaminate the bearing. I'm seeing a shift to the "Universal" type of coolants at the parts stores that are labeled as "universal or Phosphate/Silicate free". They have done this so the retailers don't have to take up space on the shelf and limit the selection of coolants.

So there's the: new "Universal Silicate/Phosphorus free" coolant, OAT, Hybrid-OAT, and traditional Green Ethylene Glycol.

There's also a very expensive coolant from Evans Cooling which is Non-Aqueous (water-less) Propylene Glycol "NPG" and has the highest heat transfer rate of all coolants and even beyond straight water. It's best used on turbo's or supercharged motors to help cool and surpress detonation but can still give huge benefits on all motors when advancing timing since it cools so well and helps avoid detonation..... This coolant allows you to run a lot of advanced timing without detonation and its been proven. I read many articles about that stuff but its like $40 a gallon. This stuff is way beyond Water Wetter or Royal Purple-Purple Ice or other coolant additives.

This is a whole other discussion but everyone should check out Evans NPG+ which is a straight coolant and you don't even have to run a pressurized cap or only a 1-5lb cap for minimum system pressure when using that coolant because of the advanced technology which means all cooling system components (rads./hoses) last much longer. I was going to use it but wanted to be sure I had a good pump first.....maybe that's what I'll have to use immediately on the next pump I get to see if it makes a difference, but I want to figure out how to get an electric pump on this car and then do the Evans coolant conversion.

I had so many performance mods. and enhancements for our 4.9's to do, test, and post on the forum, but I just can't seem to get this car straightened out first. I wanted to do a new section or Threads on this forum of these different performance mods. The Evan's Coolant conversion was just one of those performance mods I wanted to do and see how much timing the 4.9's could take without detonation! :bomb:

Here's how it works: http://www.evanscooling.com/how-it-works/water-based-vs-waterless-differentiators/

I WILL HAVE TO ATTACH THE ARTICLE HERE IN 3 DIFFERENT POSTS BECAUSE ITS TOO LARGE..........

Check out the attached article. 75 HP from changing the coolant! This was one of my performance ideas I was going to test out for our 4.9's and see how high I could safely raise the timing and setting up a Knock Sensor Meter when using this stuff since their is really no performance parts for the 4.9's but I had many ideas to apply to these motors to increase performance without tearing the motor apart..............

drewsdeville: Do you remember what type of coolant you used in your systems with the pumps that lasted or failed?


I have all of the receipts to these parts - it's a matter of finding them. I believe the Delco pump was the cheaper one. Both of the Advance Auto pumps were the cheapest they had.

These are only examples on MY personal cars, but I've installed pumps on others. I've come to the conclusion that, in the case of these water pumps AND other belt driven accessories including AC compressors and alternators, Delco is NOT the way to go. Far more frequent bearing failures on them (new tensioner or not). I've had far more postive results using the cheap aftermarkets :bonkers:

Faded Crest
06-09-12, 10:56 PM
Box says 252-720. Same one I installed in my '95 Deville before I sold it. The old one had a bad bearing and the replacement took care of the problem.

cadchris
06-09-12, 11:47 PM
See attachment of Evan's Coolant article in 3 parts below.

I'm wondering if this coolant would not attack the seals of these pumps if it's indeed a seal and EG Coolant incompatibility problem.

cadchris
06-09-12, 11:58 PM
Here's Part 2 of the Evan's High Performance Coolant Article........See part 3 next.

cadchris
06-10-12, 12:05 AM
Here's Part 3 of the article on Evan's High Performance Coolant.......... Once again, sorry to divide it up. This site would not let me post a large PDF Scan.........what a P.I.T.A.

Someone please let me know if these PDF's of the Popular Hot Rodding article could be opened and read. It should be pgs. 80-83


Finally, anyone want to try this special coolant and go for 20 degrees BTDC base timing!
:burn:

drewsdeville
06-10-12, 10:33 AM
drewsdeville: Do you remember what type of coolant you used in your systems with the pumps that lasted or failed?



My personal cars were/are always Prestone brand Dexcool. Varied amongst other's cars.

cadchris
06-10-12, 03:06 PM
Dex-Cool is really bad stuff to use and anyone using it is playing "Coolant Russian Roulette" with 1/2 the chambers loaded!

Just do a Google on "Dex-Cool Problems, Dex-Cool gelling or sludging, Dex-Cool Class Action" that happened around 2008.

Here's some very specific problems of Dex-Cool and late model gasket failures. Our 4.9's probably don't use this type of gasket material, but Dex-Cool came out in 1996 for those model years engines that were re-designed to use that coolant, but not well enough because it created ton's of various problems!

AS SEEN IN THE FOLLOWING LINKS HERE:

http://www.zillamotorsports.com/DEX/

http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/maint/dexcool/

Dex-Cool has known problems with sludgeing and gelling due to any air contamination in the system. Mostly, if you have a leaky intake or bad rad. cap and introduce air into the cooling system or even a very small headgasket leak introducing air, it will make Dex-Cool turn very acidic and attack certain types of gaskets and seals, turn to sludge/gel and clog heater-cores, and rads. ect……….. GM even issued a TSB which I can post on how to flush a sludged up Dex-Cool System using the old discontinued "Preston AS100" cleaner/flush. It was a 2 sided can of 2 dry ingrediants that you can still buy at the hardware store "Oxalic Acid a.k.a. Wood Bleach" and "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" as the neutralizer found at the grocery store. I"ve done this many times on all my cars for a good agreasive flush instead of the junk they sell at the parts stores.........some old dealerships still stock the AS100.... I've even done the Cascade Dry Dishwasher Powder flush trick also: See this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1687693

The TSB procedure is posted here in blue Post #17:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2395596-radiator-cleaner-flush.html

Good write up here also but back in 2003 before the "Class Action" over Dex-Cools later problems and flushing a Dex-Cool contaminated-slugged system:
http://tinyurl.com/7o59nxa


The cooling systems that use Dex-Cool also had pressurized recovery tanks to keep the air out. If anyone stays with Dex-Cool, they need to have a good rad. cap, and totally burb the system of air........AND CHECK IT OFTEN. I would question everyone who had 4.9 water pump failures to see if they were using Dex-Cool but I never used it in my systems with the failing pumps and only used Green Ethylene Glycol and like I stated before, maybe the bearing seals in these new after-market pumps are no longer compatible with Green Ethylene Glycol which is causing so many aftermarket water-pump failures.

I’m going to contact a coolant testing lab tomorrow and a few others to see what they think or if they will examine my pumps and can determine what type of seals were used.

drewsdeville
06-10-12, 09:21 PM
I'm well aware of the internet Dexcool wars.

I don't buy any of the Dexcool myths (yes, MYTHS - no one has been able to build enough facts against it to prove it to be an inferior product yet - and it's been in service for over 15 years now.)

Dexcool has been employed in almost all of my vehicles since I could drive. I've yet to experience any abnormal situations from it's use. All cooling system repairs were standard and inevitable.

cadchris
06-10-12, 11:14 PM
Dexcool Wars... Internet Myths... are you kidding me??????? First of all, do you know how hard it is to get into Federal Court to have a lawsuit filed let alone to have enough merit to be classified as a "CLASS ACTION" by a Federal Judge or State Superior Court?

Do you not believe they had highly educated expert witness and PHD's in the field of chemical engineering in order to not have the case dismissed in the preliminary evidentiary hearings so the Class Action would not be dismissed on a meritless complaint?

I'm sure the expert witness used a "Hewlett-Packard 5710-A dual-column gas chromatograph with flame analyzation detectors" on the Dex-Cool?????? I direct you to a familiar transcript and hope you are not one of the witnesses hanging outside the "Sack-O-Suds"!
http://www.law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/web/movies/MyCousinVinny.htm

Just to let you know, I do and have a lot of experience in the legal field and the Dex-Cool litigation was no myth which is why GM settled. Trust me, GM had to settle out BIG TIME for their lousy invention.

You probably have not experienced any problems because:
#1. You have maintained your cooling system and not allowed air to enter, or
#2. you were lucky enough to not have air enter your system.
#3, With your long term use of Dex-Cool, it obviously does not affect the 4.9 seals or gaskets and
#4. Dex-Cool has been reformulated a few times by the aftermarket to avoid patent infringement of the original forumula, but it still has those attributes of being unstable when air is introduced into the system and GM even side-stepped the language of the root of the problem in their TSB on how to flush a system that was clogged from the Dex-Cool reacting to air. Read between the lines of that TSB and why it was issued. Much of that language was not GM Engineers at work, but their legal team hard at work when writing that TSB so as not to admit any guilt with the problems Dex-Cool caused.

That's my legal take on it anyway...........

Here's a site that's not a myth: Just a small portion of the litigation of GM trying to get out of not paying claims by filing Ch.11.
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/
http://www.motorsliquidationdocket.com/

THE SETTLEMENT IN CALIFORNIA Superior Court:
Fact: Not Myth: $16.5 million in attorney fees
Fact: Not Myth: $1.55 million documented costs (expert witness included)
Fact: Not Myth: $140,000 divided among 80 Plaintiffs.

So Ordered by the Judge: Honorable Robert Freedman 10-23-2008
http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/CA_finalapproval.pdf

:nyanya:


I'm well aware of the internet Dexcool wars.

I don't buy any of the Dexcool myths (yes, MYTHS - no one has been able to build enough facts against it to prove it to be an inferior product yet - and it's been in service for over 15 years now.)

Dexcool has been employed in almost all of my vehicles since I could drive. I've yet to experience any abnormal situations from it's use. All cooling system repairs were standard and inevitable.

drewsdeville
06-10-12, 11:25 PM
Sorry, I just don't buy it. You can tell me until you are blue in the face that Dexcool is the devil - doesn't change my opinion.

If only certain seals are affected by it, then I have to assume that there's a problem with those specific seals. Not the fluid. After all, the settlement of the class action lawsuit didn't remove Dexcool from the shelves or from new GM vehicles - the result was seal replacement for those affected. None of the resulting covered repairs required the permanent removal of Dexcool (or the discontinued use of specific formulas) from the vehicle because the lawsuit provided NO facts proving that Dex was the actual source of any problems. Only sub-par seals were blamed, and again - ONLY on certain engines of certain years - not ALL engines equipped with Dex were affected.

The links you posted are interesting, but conflicts over coverage really don't say anything for the bottom line here. They say nothing about Dexcool itself.

The fact that, in your last post, you can assume that 4.X's might be able to handle it says a lot - these engines were retired before Dex was even introduced, yet it appears to have no effect on them. If the problem was Dex, wouldn't it be an even greater threat to all engines and gaskets designed and produced before Dex's introduction?

No air in the cooling system? There's plenty in my overflow bottle which, as long as the level in the rad doesn't lower significantly due to leaks, doesn't even experience any circulation. If Dex + air in the system was a problem, the Dex in my overflow bottle had plenty of time to gel up and eat away the plastic. Yet, it has never done so.

FWIW, I've owned and used Dex in more GM engines than just the 4.X... I've also used in in a number of engines from the 60 degree V6 family with no abnormal results. That family of engines was one of the supposed affected.

And yes, I've replaced many a intake, head, and water pumps gaskets in GM vehicles equipped with conventional green coolant. Those repairs would have been necessary whether the system was filled with Dex or not.

To make myself clear, I don't find the lawsuit itself to be an internet myth - recognize that it occured - I find the continued blame of Dexcool to be the myth as it has still never been proven.

dennis93coupe
06-11-12, 11:39 AM
I remember reading this thread around the time I signed up here. I don't think I have ever in my life heard of water pump failure on the same engine so many times. Thousands of them on the road out there yet, and will be in the future. I would say the the success rate would be far greater than the Cadillac N* regarding water pumps. I even know of a lot of different Toyatas that have water pump failure in excess far worse the the 4.x engines, and some people think they are just the real shit, but we won't go there.

The Dexcool thing, I took care of a mixed fleet of trucks, and we ran it in all of the GM trucks without a single problem. All of the Fords we ran what they had in them from the factory and same with the Dodges. I only had problems with one Ford every 100k, and it was a problem from day one with the water pump eating up impellors, never leaked. Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistant problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.

the recluse
06-11-12, 03:39 PM
...Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistent problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.

+1 in sentiment....
Ever thought maybe your timing cover may be warped/machined wrong? Something external has to be affecting your pumps....

drewsdeville
06-11-12, 04:20 PM
Ever thought maybe your timing cover may be warped

Win.

dennis93coupe
06-11-12, 05:31 PM
Or maybe a crank damper not centered, machined wrong possibly. AC compressor hub or clutch, might even be one of the other idler pulleys. If your belt doesn't run smooth and the tensioner is jumping you might find that is part of your problem. I start looking for a problem somewhere else.

cadchris
06-12-12, 09:38 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I know a lot gets lost in translation of my long winded, hopefully informative prior posts, but the drivebelt system appears to be o.k., although I will take these suggestions under carefull consideration. In the past, I began to explore the same when researching some very unique testing devices that I'll post up as I'm waiting for reply's to my inquiries.........I also had 2 new Gates Tensioners installed, the 2nd was a freebie from Gates and they tested my first tensioner which was allegedly confirmed to be fine but will not discourage me from my own remedial test if I can locate a test instrument to satisfy my curiosity.

I have some very interesting info to post since June 10th as a follow up and a ironic development of the DexCool Debate!

Very busy over the past few days with "Legal Stuff".........:annoyed:.

I leave you with some points to ponder and I know this in not a "Legal Forum" and realize that many did not recognize the significance in the DexCool Settlement.
$16.5 million in legal fees to recover $140,000 in damages divided by 80 Class Members at $1750 per member??????????!!!!!!!!!!!
:wtf2:

Does this look odd to anyone? I know many here probably don't have any legal experiance and by the grace of god, I hope you are all spared from the legal system.

This was a "Settlement" in order to NOT go to court for trial. These fees were not awarded in a trial by jury or judge as those fees would be deemed excessive and abuse of the legal system! However anything is fair game when you settle out of court even if the judge stamps it!

In short, $16.5 million in legal fees is considered a bit excessive and is basically a "Legal Shake Down or Legalized Extortion"........they proved their case and GM gave the Attorney's representing the Class "Hush Money" to drop the case to have it "Dismissed with Prejudice.".................$16.5 MILLION.......when the DexCool case was settled every attourney from here to Albuquerque and back must've been foaming at the mouth! The legal fees were in reality under $1 million and would've been more appropriate in proportion to expert witness fees/forensic testing ect. and in damages being sought.

I started to write a legal brief on the 10th to post but stopped myself ....wrong type of forum.......I figured that maybe I shouldn't bore you guys with legal case theory, but you'd be surprised what I found out and stumbled upon which is not unusual with my investigations.............I found the foremost FORENSIC TESTING LAB IN THE COUNTRY FOR THE DEXCOOL CASE!........and no........they're not talking being bound by the terms of their agreement, out of court settlement, attorney client privilege and client confidentiality, but I may post them up here depending on future discussions, as I may submit some of my coolant to be analysed to see what maybe going on with it ! I'm glad I didn't use DexCool or they would probably have to recluse themselves from testing it.

Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.
:shtf:
Save your receipts if you use DexCool just in case but I believe that all producers have secretly ironed out the problems by a change in formulation of each brand of DexCool........
I"ll see if the "back channels" are still open and what I can find out.

drewsdeville
06-12-12, 10:56 PM
Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.

:thumbsup:

Exactly why I call it a myth. As far as we know, nothing has been proven in court. On top of that, I have not experienced related problems in over 10 years of it's use - I've been provided no valid facts that support the suggestion that I'm playing "coolant russian roulette". Evidently, I've had longer pump life than you, on the cheapest aftermarket pumps, WITH DEXCOOL! According to Google, I'm currently accomplishing the impossible! :p

I must be doing something right, or I'm very lucky. In either case, I see no reason to change what I've been doing. Works for me.

Good luck to you in your quest, good sir.

cadchris
06-12-12, 11:54 PM
No not a myth, but a legal settlement...OMG why do you think that GM just handed over $16.5 million????...

In the legal system, that's why most cases never go to trial. "I got you by the Conjones pay up or else!" Its a shakedown! They proved their case w/o going to court! We are just not privy to the evidence they uncovered......or where this could've gone. Trust me, I have ton's of experience with the legal system both State and Federal, and lawyers are all scumbags who all will sell out their clients and work both sides to maximize their gains in a case and will sell out their mothers, grandma's and the Pope if they had to...........this is why I now litigate my cases from my extensive legal background.

Any Class Action Lawyers use their clients as a mechanism to make huge amounts of undeserved fees which skirts the edges of the R.I.C.O Act........

Or the Plaintiff's investigators had video of one of the GM Execs with a Colombian Hooker doing Coke......ever hear about John Delorean? An x-friend of the family was his "personal assistant" for many years and she has his 64' 427 Vette in her procession where I've tried to investigate if its been deemed stolen somewhere along the lines..........glad I cut her off because I would've been working on it and I see it parked in a Condo parking garage all the time!

Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 large one's were paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial. They get the proof, slam it down on the table during court ordered mediation, and give the other side an ultimatum....... the other side knows they also want out to get their money asap to move on to the next case so GM had a little leverage and probably "offered" $10 million to shut up and go away quietly and they said you can afford $16.5 + damages + our legal costs! Oh god........I need to move this whole thing over to one of the legal boards.............who will all unanimously agree they had the proof because if they didn't or it was a bluff, GM would've counter-sued for a $100 million!

Your's and other's successes with DexCool has so many variables even before considering your luck. From what I think, DexCool has had many different versions of additive packages in the aftermarket so that's a huge variable to many's success and those who like myself who black-list the name stemming from this litigation is only a fear of the unknown which is logical. My new fear of the unknown is not to change an OEM GM Part unless its bad just like my original pump was good and I stupidly elected to replace it as preventative maintenance when everything was apart which has led to this whole fiasco.

It would be my educated guess that the aftermarket producers of DexCool would re-formulate the additive package after secretly learning of DexCools "original formulation" problems" which makes a lot of sense, because they'd be in the same boat as GM was in the past. The Class Action Lawyers are still sitting on their evidence and knowledge and the aftermarket knew not to screw around even if they said they changed the additive package as to no infringe on the original patent........

I will admit its a complex matter beyond many including myself, but from the legal point of view, I recognize what occured in the litigation and my recent introduction to the Forensic Lab's restraint on talking about DexCool who did the testing in the case is sufficient testimony that there's some major issue.

Finally, the name "DexCool" will continue to carry a bad reputation.........I even read the ZR1 guys have been having problems lately with head gaskets swelling on DexCool either OE Dex or Aftermarket which maybe revealing itself later since those cars aren't daily drivers.

Finally, I think I just discovered that my Delco Pump was run on Green Silicated Ethylene Glycol and the 2nd Cardone pump was run on the new "Universal Silicate/Phosphate Free" coolant which is why I want to have it tested just to know let alone see if anything shows up.

Spoke to Dayco today, and Gates a few times including some other's in the industry and they firmly believe its a simple inferior bearing design that's out in the market over the past years. There have been quite a few others on this forum and other forums with the same experience as me so there is a problem with these pumps as seen in my posts 40 and 44......and I made the joke about a Class Action over these pumps. Round up 80 people, file in Federal Court get everyone's old pumps examined by a lab and I'd distribute the extortion fees to the members of the class!

drewsdeville
06-12-12, 11:57 PM
delete

drewsdeville
06-12-12, 11:58 PM
Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 was paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial.



I do get it. I understand that nothing was uncovered. I've posted this 3 times now. I also understand that the paid 16.5 mil was advantageous to GM whether there was something to be uncovered or not. It was a necessity either way, a cheap one at that - you can't make any logical conclusions based on it.

Nothing uncovered, it's been working as advertised for me and many others. That's all that matters to me. Not google searches or ZR1 owners. It's a myth to me.

Good luck to you, sir.

cadchris
06-13-12, 01:13 AM
..........



I do get it. I understand that nothing was uncovered. I've posted this 3 times now. I also understand that the paid 16.5 mil was advantageous to GM whether there was something to be uncovered or not. It was a necessity either way, a cheap one at that - you can't make any logical conclusions based on it.

Nothing uncovered, it's been working as advertised for me and many others. That's all that matters to me. Not google searches or ZR1 owners. It's a myth to me.

Good luck to you, sir.

eldo92
09-11-12, 07:01 PM
THE RECLUSE: What pump did you have that only lasted 10K?

As I mentioned before, if anyone hasn't replaced their original tensioner, best to replace it with the new Gates design tensioner to try and prevent bearing failures in ALL componants in the accessory drive. (Alt, W.P., P.S. Pump, Idler.)

From my research, and own experiance, I can only wonder if in fact the failing tensioner caused all my problems of a failed P.S. Pump Bearing, Alt Bearing, and WaterPump Bearing on a new waterpump that was replaced as preventative maintanance all within a a year or so.

I second cadchris' idea on replacing the OEM tensioner with the Gates tensioner/pulley on the 4.9. You wont need the OEM range indicator/dust cover with the Gates, and it will make a huge difference along with a new Gates serpentine belt, $26 at Carquest.

dennis93coupe
09-11-12, 07:51 PM
Has anyone here ever had a tensioner apart? I have, and all there is a composit bushing and a spring in there. I had to take one apart to get my plater to polish and chrome plate it. And there should be a very small amount of grease on the bushing surfaces.

cadchris
11-10-12, 05:04 AM
Well.......I put this thing to bed for a while.

I tried to go 3-4 sizes bigger on the belt to lessen the tension on the drive belt system in order to buy more time, but it finally started to leak coolant out the weep hole, and the main bearing got extremely noisy.

I missed out on that discontinued Craftsman Digital Torque Meter on E-bay to do some torque comparisons of the Gates Tensioner vs. an old style GM Tensioner so I could post some pics if there was a big difference but I wanted to see if there is much of a difference in tensioner specs just for the h'll of it. Hopefully I can find that meter on e-bay again.

I asked someone a few weeks ago who's a vendor at the APPEX Show in Vegas, to stop by the AC Delco booth to see if they could get some contact info or a backdoor into Delco Engineering so I can find out what they know about pump failures and inferior bearings/seals they are sourcing which I believe everyone in the aftermarket is also sourcing from the same place in Asia on all these pumps.........just a feeling I have.

This summer, I researched the 6 superseded OEM part numbers and started to track down original Cadillac GM boxed OEM pumps and the early Delco replacements date stamped from the early 90's and on. I'll post that info some day but I have many more calls to make of who has these old better made pumps.

I'm still hoping other 4.9/4.5 owners can give some feedback of either good or bad pump experiences with Delco or other mfgs in the aftermarket and what years they were installed so a better picture can be made of good or defective pumps from year to year.

I believe that somewhere around the early 90's the better made GM boxed pumps were discontinued then Delco picked the up the line and were also high quality since they would've been made to replace failures under factory warranty. My feeling is that the Delco pumps date stamped from the mid-90's to early 2000's were the better made pumps. I even spoke to an old AirTex tech who confirmed my belief of one pump I ran across this summer that had the letter "A" in a "circle" stamped on the cover which was much different from other Delco Pumps. He said AirTex was actually making the pumps here in the U.S. with U.S. components for GM and Delco, "back in the day" and were stamped with the letter "A" in a "circle" on the front of the pump. But this dealer also sent me a photo and I could tell someone sandblasted and re-painted it so I fwd the photo to this AirTex Rep. and he said the same, so something was up with that old pump and it was probably a return or the dealer did it to re-sell for some reason!

I did find some orig. boxed GM Cad. pumps but they were also over $350!

I'm still considering the electric water pump retrofit from that Australian Company Davis Craig but I'll still have to puton another new replacement pump and cut the impeller off for better flow with the electric pump and re-rout the beltdrive with a smaller belt. The fitment down by the lower hose is going to be very tight and they said the pump can be put in the upper hose, but if there is a coolant loss, it will no longer pump. They also sell a low coolant alarm and I also researched other company's who make these devices which I would need if the pump was put in the upper hose.

I now know that I'll have to also do the front cover gasket and I'll need a new lower water housing inlet due to rust and I may as well do the timing chain too.

I again warn anyone looking to replace a good working OEM pump for preventative maintanacne NOT TO DO IT. If you have an orig. pump, it's much better than the new pumps made today that seem to fail every year or so........!


..........stupid a.ss water pump failure project!

Regards,
Chris

dennis93coupe
11-10-12, 10:54 AM
I now know that I'll have to also do the front cover gasket and I'll need a new lower water housing inlet due to rust and I may as well do the timing chain too.

You will always have trouble with water pumps if you have a rust problem...

cadchris
11-10-12, 12:56 PM
I have an external rust problem living in Fl. by the beach......

I've cleaned my cooling system out well with the old GM Flush Procedure using the long discontinued
Prestone AS-100 2 part Oxalic Acid w/ Sodium Carbonate neutralizer. There is a whole TSB flushing procedure on it. It's still available at some GM dealerships, under GM part#12346500.

I was going to do a write up on it here some day of this old lost procedure so others can decide on using this procedure or the junk they now sell at the parts store that doesn't work, but I figure it would cause a whole "flushing procedure controversy"!:bonkers:

Anyone interested should Google: "Prestone AS-100 or AS100 or GM TSB part#12346500" to learn more. Or just buy "Wood Bleach" from ACE Hardware and Arm & Hammer Washing Soda in the yellow box from the grocery store.......all the same stuff and concentrate since I discussed the old Prestone MSDS with the mfgs chemist of the ACE Woodbleech at "Savogran Chemical.
Here's the stuff here: http://www.savogran.com/Information/Wood_Bleach_PD.pdf


Here's a detailed link from the Vette Forum with the GM TSB Procedure which is also all over the web in other forums.........this is the only way to really flush out a system to get it so clean it will maybe leak, but hey....that's what the GM/Bars leak Tabs are for including the other multi-step sealers + I always do oil analysis to monitor engine coolant in the oil :
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-tech-performance/2797051-dex-cool-sludge.html

or here:

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29910&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=534c3cec791d17182b1a1837377e3660

I've also put some woman's nylons in the upper hose to trap any scale/rust in the system and was even considering installing a coolant filter like the diesels have just to be sure.......and to rule out an internal coolant chemistry problem, I'm also going to send the coolant out to be analysed to see if there is indeed an issue that could cause the pumps to fail but I know it's just crumby Asian made pumps/seals/bearings.

I'm also looking into putting some Zinc and Magnesium sacrificial anodes in just for the he'll of it....cheap insurance.

eldo92
10-08-13, 10:05 PM
You can't go wrong with Carquest OE replacement water pumps. Parent company is Japanese, with subsidiary companies in US. Pump is manufactured in either Canada, Mexico, or US. Replaced mine on the 4.9 92 Eldo one year ago, no leaks, and no issues.

Also, can't recommend Gates Drive Align premium belt tensioner assembly strong enough. I noticed the size and shape difference from the OEM assembly and paused before committing to it, and have no regrets, as well as the Gates Serpentine belt as a much better assembly than what GM used at the factory.

Tensioner assembly: Part Number: 38184 (http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_CARQUEST+Belt+Tensioners+%26+Pulleys+By+Ga tes_DriveAlign+Premium+OE+Automatic+Belt+Tensioner _10151_-1_10651_435530_23202?acesApp=1)
Water Pump: Part Number : 51-1765 (http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_CARQUEST+New+Water+Pumps__10151_-1_10651_129397_19029?acesApp=1)