: New owner I am not enjoying my STS expeience so far.



KTKelly
12-05-10, 02:11 PM
Bought the wife a 13,000 mile "Black Cherry" 2009 STS with Northstar V8, after her 1998 BMW 740il began having too many issues at 200,000 miles.

So far neither of us is really enjoying the STS experience.

Prior to our purchase we noted a couple seemingly small issues that were to be corrected.

1. Original FOB #1 didn't come with the car, but a replacement was given to us and the local dealer cut the key and programmed the new FOB into the system.

2. The navigation drive was bad so local dealer replaced the entire head unit.


You would think that all would then be well and good.

BUT:

1. After many attempts to program features such as auto door locking, seat memory, etc, etc, we've given up. The manual that comes with the car doesn't cover a car with the nav screen, but does for a car without? What the hell?

2. Weather turns cold and the nav screen, as well as all dash lights go so dim as to not be visible.

3. Radio volume goes full up, and full down without being touched at times. Never know when this will happen.


This car is under warranty, and it'll hit the local dealer shop as needed, but I don't care for owning a car that requires more time at the shop than on the road where it should be....


I believe that GM gets one more time to get things right with this POS before I go to the state and file under the sate a lemon law.


I am not impressed....

jedhead
12-05-10, 03:11 PM
I don't believe the Lemon law covers used cars. On my car with the Nav, you get in the car with only one FOB, set everything the way you want, including radio presets, then press the config button and press the driver number associated with the FOB on the screen you have until it beeps a few times. Then everything should be set to that FOB.

Bob

KRSTS
12-05-10, 03:19 PM
Don't give up on the car yet. Sounds like the dealer f***** up the NAV head install. The NAV manual is separate from the owner's manual and you should have gotten one from the dealer. Go back to the dealer and insist he make things right. I hope you have a CPO? :annoyed::annoyed::annoyed:

BaTu
12-05-10, 03:22 PM
NONE of the problems you describe are typical for the model, I'd think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with a similar situation....

It seems to me that your issue should be with the dealer more than the car itself. They should get you a fob and a working Nav (along with the documentation for it!)

Coming from a BMW, this should be a DREAM for you! :) At least you weren't subjected to what the 745 guys had to go through ;)

EChas3
12-05-10, 03:31 PM
Sorry to hear of your troubles. The Navigation Supplement Owners Manual does help and it's available around here somewhere. I don't have the link handy and perhaps aonther member can assist with that link.

I agree many of the settings are not very intuitive. It may be that your replacement fob was not matched properly to the car. (When matched as #3 or #4, they don't recall driver settings.) That would explain this trouble. To start from scratch, make sure none of the fobs are within 30 feet of the car and begin the sequence in the manual or consult the procedures linked from the 'sticky' post at the beginning of this forum.

The Nav unit's are refurbished (depot maintenance) and you may have gotten a unit without the newest firmware. There are also some threads on this topic.

You are absolutely correct about the dim Nav display when cold. I think newer units are better because my wife's 2007 doesn't exhibit this issue as much as my 2006. Since you're under warranty, hold the dealer's feet to the fire until you are completely satisfied. I hope you have a dealer that provides quality loaners. If not, consider using another dealer.

I haven't heard reports of the other displays being dim. Some members have reported issues with the OEM battery and a defective battery will cause many strange issues. Unfortunately not all Cadillac dealers are as good as they should be. This forum's members have been a great help to me so please don't hesitate to ask for suggestions.

In any case, good luck.

kschwed
12-05-10, 03:37 PM
Sorry to hear of your troubles. The Navigation Supplement Owners Manual does help and it's available around here somewhere. I don't have the link handy and perhaps aonther member can assist with that link.

I agree many of the settings are not very intuitive. It may be that your replacement fob was not matched properly to the car. (When matched as #3 or #4, they don't recall driver settings.) That would explain this trouble. To start from scratch, make sure none of the fobs are within 30 feet of the car and begin the sequence in the manual or consult the procedures linked from the 'sticky' post at the beginning of this forum.

The Nav unit's are refurbished (depot maintenance) and you may have gotten a unit without the newest firmware. There are also some threads on this topic.

You are absolutely correct about the dim Nav display when cold. I think newer units are better because my wife's 2007 doesn't exhibit this issue as much as my 2006. Since you're under warranty, hold the dealer's feet to the fire until you are completely satisfied. I hope you have a dealer that provides quality loaners. If not, consider using another dealer.

I haven't heard reports of the other displays being dim. Some members have reported issues with the OEM battery and a defective battery will cause many strange issues. Unfortunately not all Cadillac dealers are as good as they should be. This forum's members have been a great help to me so please don't hesitate to ask for suggestions.

In any case, good luck.

The NAV display can be a little dim at first when the car is cold. This is normal for any LCD display. It heats up and brightens up quickly. Programming the memory for seat positions, etc is a little tricky the first time, but it isn't hard to do once you figure it out. Like the post a few up said, press config, then vehicle, then personal settings. Sorry your experience hasn't been great yet, but believe me, these cars do not disappoint.

Subsailor613
12-05-10, 03:37 PM
HANG IN THERE... It takes a short while for you (me) to understand how to program stuff to suit your preferences, It was a Lot of load on me, (AT FIRST) but once I got everything programmed, IT IS GREAT !! For me, it would be worth it to go to a Cadillac dealer, and ask the service writer how to do some of the things you want to do.AND go to your car and try them out,and also group things together,if it's ALL programming, pay them, to check, it to see if it "IS" working ! $ 100.00 ?and it's done ? Good Luck

KTKelly
12-05-10, 08:54 PM
The odd part of this is that I spend a few hours cleaning the car and then programming the system.

Programmed my FOB (#2) and all seemed to work well.

Doors will lock as they should, unlock as they should, steering wheel and seat go to an exit position at engine shut down, and driver #2 and my name are displayed.

But seats steering wheel, mirrors and radio don't go to the saved settings.

Took my FOB into the house, far, away from the car and then programmed the wife's FOB.

Her FOB (#1) will unlock the doors as programmed, and will sometimes lock the doors. Will not do any other programmed functions with any regularity from what I can see.

I think that maybe the dealership has programed the new FOB as a valet FOB, which is something I could have done.

If it were possible for me to delete what the dealership had done and program her FOB as it should have been, I would simply do it myself and be done. But I had been informed that a Cadillac dealership had to do the initial programming for a main FOB. Is that so, or was I fed a line of BS just to get me in the dealership?


This is the wife's car, so she ain't happy, I'm not happy....:D


Me, I'm happy in my old low tech 69 Vette...

EChas3
12-05-10, 09:49 PM
I'm convinced the fobs are not actually matched as #1 & #2. See post 8 in the thread linked below.

Click Here! (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-sts-forum-2005-through-2010/157669-key-fob-matching-procedure.html)

turnne
12-11-10, 04:57 PM
Coming from a BMW, this should be a DREAM for you! :) At least you weren't subjected to what the 745 guys had to go through ;)

really?!!!..lol

What is the dream?

I am very curious..as I had a 2000 740i as well
Apples and oranges comparo to the way the two cars drive and handle...but I knew that going into and the STS was WAY cheaper to buy than the BMW

Warren

turnne
12-11-10, 04:59 PM
The NAV display can be a little dim at first when the car is cold. This is normal for any LCD display. It heats up and brightens up quickly. Programming the memory for seat positions, etc is a little tricky the first time, but it isn't hard to do once you figure it out. Like the post a few up said, press config, then vehicle, then personal settings. Sorry your experience hasn't been great yet, but believe me, these cars do not disappoint.

Mine has appeared dim as well..in the winter time

I have also had some "freakish" issues with the drivers side mirror forgetting its memory setting......seems to happen about once every 3-4 months


Warren

SHOWGIRL
12-12-10, 02:08 PM
NONE of the problems you describe are typical for the model, I'd think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with a similar situation....

It seems to me that your issue should be with the dealer more than the car itself. They should get you a fob and a working Nav (along with the documentation for it!)

Coming from a BMW, this should be a DREAM for you! :) At least you weren't subjected to what the 745 guys had to go through ;)
-------------------------
Hi - this is 'off this thread's subject' but i couldn't miss your comment on the BMW & tried to send you a PM but i don't think it 'worked ' - we owned (it was a 'demo' with 7k when we bought it) a 2000 BMW iL - recently had to get rid of it - you never knew if it would start !! Dealers/independent authorized BMW repair places kept it - it would start for them -all stated 'until it would get in the 'failed-mode' there was no way for them to diagnose the problem''. This was ongoing from day 1 -batteries were changed/starters were changed - nothign helped...he told current BMW agency to totally rebuild/replace everything associated with starting the car - they stated they couldn't guarantee 'that' would solve the problem since they don't 'know' 'what' the problem is !! they had it for a week !!!
- but for my husband ? it was hit or miss - totally tempermental - sometimes it would take between 2-7 times before it turned-over. And it only had 39,000 (not a typo)... he love everything about the car - and without getting a new one (cost too prohibitive now) the only car he found that was 'sporty' like that was the 2010 3.6 CTS Performance. Only problem with that one was the seats ! car itself was great! seats were iron =short-seated benches. We just got the 2010 DTS Premium on a re-sale with 11K, in-service of May 2010. thanks in advance for any comments on the BMW .. hoping you tell him he didn't make a mistake getting rid of it!! LOL

BaTu
12-12-10, 06:10 PM
A very good friend on mine, a guy I grew-up with, has always been a mechanic. For the past 10yrs he's been the BMW electronics specialist and the local dealership (in fact, he rarely even gets his hand dirty anymore working on cars, he reprograms and adjusts all the electronic controls)

Often, he regales us at lunch with the Horror Stories of these P.O.S :) He talks about the lot being full of cars who need the PCM reprogrammed (it takes about 6hrs) for the 3rd & 4th time -hehehe 30 cars backed-up, customers have to wait a week for it to be their turn because they only can get 1 machine from BMW...

He was getting weekly calls from Germany asking for ideas as to what he thinks could be wrong (he's thinking of course "You're asking ME????)

I could go on & on with his weekly stories....

Glad I don't have one ;)

trackbait
12-12-10, 06:52 PM
Cut your losses. Dump it.

I thought the STS was for me.. I was never so happy to get rid of that car than any other I've owned in 40 years.

Went back to another C6 vette... What the hell was I thinking?

EChas3
12-12-10, 06:58 PM
This kind of issue usually is a crank position sensor (CPS) on 'lesser' cars than the BMW. It always starts with the basics, air, fuel & spark. If an engine is getting air & fuel, it's gotta be spark. Like the CPS common on other cars, there must be a list of things (a long list?) that have to happen for a BMW engine to deliver spark. Even if the air/fuel mixture is off, if it doesn't 'catch' even a little bit, I'm voting spark.

SHOWGIRL
12-12-10, 07:09 PM
This kind of issue usually is a crank position sensor (CPS) on 'lesser' cars than the BMW. It always starts with the basics, air, fuel & spark. If an engine is getting air & fuel, it's gotta be spark. Like the CPS common on other cars, there must be a list of things (a long list?) that have to happen for a BMW engine to deliver spark. Even if the air/fuel mixture is off, if it doesn't 'catch' even a little bit, I'm voting spark.
-----------------------------
Hi - are you saying that the 2 bmw dealers and 2 independent foreign car repair shops overlooked something as simple as a 'spark' ? this is outrageous !! what can the poor simple-minded owners do !! maybe car should have been taken to the local corner mechanic who probably would have gotten it to start ? Thank you for your opinion - it would be a horror to think we got rid of a perfectly good car for a 'simple' fix ... :helpless:

KTKelly
12-13-10, 01:01 PM
WOW!

Started something of a huge "flame war" with my comment about my previous car (BMW 740il).

For the person that had a temperamental BMW:

Sounds like you needed a different dealer/mechanic.

I've owned several BMW's ranging from a lowly 325e (sold w/389,000 on the clock) to the 740il (with 180,000) and all were exceptional cars that needed replacement only due to very high mileage numbers.

No way you can realistically compare any Cadillac to a 7 series BMW. Not in the same league at all.


A continuation of my issues:

Called the service department of the dealership that programmed my #1 FOB and was told by the service "tech" (apparently using the term very loosely) who informed me that there was no such thing as a "valet" FOB.

Car goes back to them on Thursday so THEY can correct whatever is causing the problem.

Frankly, I don't care why it isn't working properly, I just want it fixed for my wife (IT'S HER CAR AFTER ALL)..



Me, I'll drive my C3 Vette and my 06 Chevy 2500HD with blissful glee. :yup:

SHOWGIRL
12-13-10, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=KTKelly;2441289]WOW!

Started something of a huge "flame war" with my comment about my previous car (BMW 740il).

For the person that had a temperamental BMW:

Sounds like you needed a different dealer/mechanic. HI our 740iL was seen by two dealerships (one that kept the car for a week trying to 'diagnose') and the original selling-dealership + two BMW authorized independent repair shops ,one of which kept the car for several days =all starting the car daily -sometimes more than once, daily) - no one at any of these places could find the cause of the problem - i don't know how many more places we could have found...but all had the same opinions (none conferred with the other ) ..it wasn't the 'starter'/battery/keys(tried both our keys) and unless car was in 'failed' mode they couldn't diagnose it - due to it's year (2000) there is no module to hook it to a computer for a diagnosis as they can do with today's cars. And of course none of those places had it NOT start every time for them ! yet back home - back to it's 'tempermental' status. lol

I've owned several BMW's ranging from a lowly 325e (sold w/389,000 on the clock) to the 740il (with 180,000) and all were exceptional cars that needed replacement only due to very high mileage numbers. you were a very lucky person !

No way you can realistically compare any Cadillac to a 7 series BMW. Not in the same league at all. one is domestic the other , foreign .. :)

EChas3
12-13-10, 08:46 PM
I didn't mean to offend sensibilities, but sometimes tech's just replace parts and replace parts and....

A talented problem solver uses intellegence guided by experience. If you have that kind of situation, find a talented problem solver.

Stric9
12-15-10, 08:54 PM
I didn't mean to offend sensibilities, but sometimes tech's just replace parts and replace parts and....


Ahhhh Yes... In the aircraft industry we call those guys "dive bombers". Troubleshooting (especially electronics) is rapidly becoming a lost art form.

EChas3
12-15-10, 10:20 PM
Years ago, running Burroughs (Unisys) hardware in a bank, my primary tech was a farmboy who could fix anything. One Sunday night while we were converting a 2 new banks to our system a drive failed. Sure, we could reload and start over but back when 100 MB on a mainframe cost $20,000 we didn't have enough space without that drive. A replacement drive was about 8 hours away.

Despite his company's policy to replace it, he traced out the problem and fixed it. He had never fixed one before. It was still running fine when the next night we did an orderly swap. Saved my ass from an irate bank president. He used to say, what good is a field engineer that can only fix stuff they've seen before?

The world has changed. It used to be all about persistence and overcomming obstacles. Nowadays we just design the systems so redundant and virtual that a user never notices a hardware failure. The 'appliance' calls the responsible vendor and a tech shows up with a part. One 'hot-swap' later and the appliance makes the service call complete.

rnkath08
12-16-10, 10:28 AM
I have a strange querry...if Trackbait hated his STS so much that he got rid of it, why then continue to lurk here and read and post on how awful it was? Move along little doggie.....
I respect you didn't like it, but methinks you might have a bit too much free time.....just sayin...

M.A.C
12-16-10, 02:45 PM
I adjusted the brightness of the nav screen the other day and it's much better. if it's too dim during the winter cold then just turn the brightness up.

turnne
12-16-10, 07:04 PM
A very good friend on mine, a guy I grew-up with, has always been a mechanic. For the past 10yrs he's been the BMW electronics specialist and the local dealership (in fact, he rarely even gets his hand dirty anymore working on cars, he reprograms and adjusts all the electronic controls)

Often, he regales us at lunch with the Horror Stories of these P.O.S :) He talks about the lot being full of cars who need the PCM reprogrammed (it takes about 6hrs) for the 3rd & 4th time -hehehe 30 cars backed-up, customers have to wait a week for it to be their turn because they only can get 1 machine from BMW...


He was getting weekly calls from Germany asking for ideas as to what he thinks could be wrong (he's thinking of course "You're asking ME????)

I could go on & on with his weekly stories....

Glad I don't have one ;)

Interesting...never had those issue with my 2..or heard anything like that in the waiting rooms of 3 different BMW dealerships( Classic BMW-Dallas Texas, Kelly BMW Columbus Ohio or Midwestern Auto group BMW Dublin Ohio)-
And what dealer does your friend work at...My service advisor...(I can shoot you a PM with his name and number if you want to verify) at Midwestern auto group BMW( Dublin Ohio) says the 6 hours to reprogram a PCM is BS

And if you think a BMW buyer would put up with any of that fairly tale you are talking about you are kidding....you have cars there that are 80-100K...and I mean real transaction prices..not an inflated sticker that they knock 25% off of

They are very complicated cars with a lot of complex "first to the market...or one of its kind systems"...so maybe that's what's your friend has been experiencing....but there is a LOT of exaggeration in what you stated
Then there is that driving experience that other brands keep trying to emulate...and admit to it...but still not even close
In fact Infiniti is probably the closet thing to a german "feel" from a non german car
Nothing else is even close...regardless of that "game changing" commercial that Cadillac ran when they introduced the STS showing the germans in the background

But funny...with all of the issues your friends says they have...have you ever asked him why people will still pay top dollar for one...even a used one?


Warren

turnne
12-16-10, 07:11 PM
Ahhhh Yes... In the aircraft industry we call those guys "dive bombers". Troubleshooting (especially electronics) is rapidly becoming a lost art form.

Agreed...and its just a money thing

Today its either more expensive to troubleshoot than replace...or its all together kind of deal where individual parts are not replaceable...therefore a complete system has to be replaced

Case in point..the MRC suspension on the STS
The electronic components are not available separately..you have to buy the whole system

which in the case of the older cars brings up another issue...the cost to replace the suspension is more than the car is worth
Thank goodness for the passive substitutions I guess
I don't think many people would invest 4K in the suspension of a 5K car

Warren

turnne
12-16-10, 07:19 PM
This kind of issue usually is a crank position sensor (CPS) on 'lesser' cars than the BMW. It always starts with the basics, air, fuel & spark. If an engine is getting air & fuel, it's gotta be spark. Like the CPS common on other cars, there must be a list of things (a long list?) that have to happen for a BMW engine to deliver spark. Even if the air/fuel mixture is off, if it doesn't 'catch' even a little bit, I'm voting spark.

This was...I mean CPS...was a very common problem on the pre 05 Northstar

As I recall you had one did you?...I know you had HG issues as well

But my old 01 Aurora...had the CPS replaced...as well as the wheel bearings, oil pressure sensor....steering shaft..and then there was that leaking trunk

And ..funny thing..I go into the dealer and you tell them the problem and they already know the issue and said they have fixed it dozens of times

As I recall..the Caddy's didn't have the instrument cluster/radio control bulbs issues blowing out like the Aurora did though

But other than that..I think they were right in the same game for those common issues

I didn't have the HG issues though


Warren

turnne
12-16-10, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=KTKelly;2441289]WOW!

No way you can realistically compare any Cadillac to a 7 series BMW. Not in the same league at all. one is domestic the other , foreign .. :)

I am about 99% certain that he was not referring to where the cars were built.or where the percentage of components came from

Comparing a 7 series to an STS..is like comparing an Chevy Impala to an STS

Doesn't matter that they are both sold by an US based company...its apples and oranges...and to me there is that much difference


Warren

turnne
12-16-10, 07:30 PM
I have a strange querry...if Trackbait hated his STS so much that he got rid of it, why then continue to lurk here and read and post on how awful it was? Move along little doggie.....
I respect you didn't like it, but methinks you might have a bit too much free time.....just sayin...

Maybe still holding some residual anger because he feels he was scre__ed....that a natural reaction

I have said it many times......have the right expectation of both performance and $$ when you buy one of these cars
That way you won't disappointed...its all about having the right expectations

I think the STS is a great car for its 4 year old price...the prevailing value fits the level( mine anyway) of expectation

When you feel you over payed for what you got...that's when the issues with anger come about

I don't feel that at all...I paid less than 30% of sticker for a 4 year old car is pristine condition with every factory option

The car meets my expectations for that price

why would I expect any more?


Warren

RippyPartsDept
12-16-10, 07:45 PM
to the OP (KTKelly) - the Nav Manual is available from Helm Inc (if you haven't got one yet) for about $10
http://helminc.com
order online or call their 800 number

caddyfat2
12-17-10, 02:03 PM
Sign up at GMOWNERCENTER and you will be able to download one free .

EChas3
12-17-10, 10:47 PM
Warren, why didn't you pick 'teutonic' instead of 'turnne'? It would have better reflected your devotion to the German 'feel'.

It is true that my wife's '98 N* developed the common HG issue. It had also developed a leak after heavy rain and a sunroof actuator problem. She just liked the car so much (and it looked so good) we put off selling until it became urgent.

But I think you're wrong in the idea of trying to make a bunch of 'suggestions' to a service writer when repoting a problem. Tell them the symptoms as accurately as you can. When you hire professionals, let them do their job. If you're going to tell one how to do their job, I'd suggest you do it yourself.

As far as expensive repairs, I agree with you if you consider all the costs of trading cars. It can be more than a little tax & title fee. Some states charge major taxes on cars. Don't forget the new set of tires (and wheels) a new car might 'need'. How many forum members spend thousands to bring their car up to their ideal? If I have a car 'worth' $5,000 and face a $4,000 repair, I do need to consider the cost of bringing any replacement car up to a level that I would be as satisfied with it.

Thankfully, I am very happy with my STS.

z06bigbird
12-19-10, 10:59 AM
The odd part of this is that I spend a few hours cleaning the car and then programming the system.

Programmed my FOB (#2) and all seemed to work well.

Doors will lock as they should, unlock as they should, steering wheel and seat go to an exit position at engine shut down, and driver #2 and my name are displayed.

But seats steering wheel, mirrors and radio don't go to the saved settings.

Took my FOB into the house, far, away from the car and then programmed the wife's FOB.

Her FOB (#1) will unlock the doors as programmed, and will sometimes lock the doors. Will not do any other programmed functions with any regularity from what I can see.

I think that maybe the dealership has programed the new FOB as a valet FOB, which is something I could have done.

If it were possible for me to delete what the dealership had done and program her FOB as it should have been, I would simply do it myself and be done. But I had been informed that a Cadillac dealership had to do the initial programming for a main FOB. Is that so, or was I fed a line of BS just to get me in the dealership?


This is the wife's car, so she ain't happy, I'm not happy....:D


Me, I'm happy in my old low tech 69 Vette...

Sounds like you are developing a case of 'old fart-itis.' Major symptoms include loving a 40 year old car. lol

Treat sales or service people to a few tacos or pizzas. They will jump at the chance to help you. Meet your local Caddy service mgr; service mgrs typically have fantastic personalities and they know how to be helpful to customers. I sometimes drop off food, and then (in front of some of his staff) hand him his change-- as if he bought the goodies. He is then the hero to his staff.

turnne
12-19-10, 09:05 PM
Warren, why didn't you pick 'teutonic' instead of 'turnne'? It would have better reflected your devotion to the German 'feel'.

It is true that my wife's '98 N* developed the common HG issue. It had also developed a leak after heavy rain and a sunroof actuator problem. She just liked the car so much (and it looked so good) we put off selling until it became urgent.

But I think you're wrong in the idea of trying to make a bunch of 'suggestions' to a service writer when repoting a problem. Tell them the symptoms as accurately as you can. When you hire professionals, let them do their job. If you're going to tell one how to do their job, I'd suggest you do it yourself.

As far as expensive repairs, I agree with you if you consider all the costs of trading cars. It can be more than a little tax & title fee. Some states charge major taxes on cars. Don't forget the new set of tires (and wheels) a new car might 'need'. How many forum members spend thousands to bring their car up to their ideal? If I have a car 'worth' $5,000 and face a $4,000 repair, I do need to consider the cost of bringing any replacement car up to a level that I would be as satisfied with it.

Thankfully, I am very happy with my STS.

I am a HUGE fan of the feel of the germans...no surprise there..LOL
And the rest of the pack continues to "chase" it
IMO.....closer than it was 10 years ago...but there is a still a large difference

In regard to your common HG, sunroof and water leak issues....yes heard about those many times

Funny how you have said before how you like to "use something until its done..."..or something like that
using the case where one would consider the value of the car when they decided to make repairs
I cal that simple logic...but as I recall you disagreed
Though you could have dropped about 6K in your old STS and drove it for a while more

I always find it interesting these "myths" on here about the expense of maintaining the Germans

I wonder if you ask someone who has repaired a Northstar HG, a sunroof, a water leak and an active suspension if they think the Cadillac is cheap to repair in any sense of the word

And another thing that is somewhat of a quandry to me...the cost to replace the MRC shocks on an STS is 4K....that is the same price that it costs to replace the airmatic suspension on a Mercedes S class...a car that costs an incredible amount more than an STS

Warren