: Warrenty almost up. Now engine sounds like old 350 after oil change when starting.



LAC_STS
12-02-10, 12:09 PM
Well my GMPP warrenty is up in about 6K miles. Which is about 2 months for me.

And now Im having a big problem.

This has happened twice so far. Once about 3 weeks ago and then yesterday.


So does everyone know when you change the oil on an older engine like a 350, when you start it after you fill it with new oil it sometimes sounds like hell for 2 seconds right when it starts?

Thats what Im dealing with on my STS.

It sounds like rods are gonna start flyin for about 2 seconds then it stops and sounds normal.


Its only done this twice so far. I have no idea why. Oil level is fine, oil was changed about 4K miles ago.

Anyone have an idea?



Thanks

txbest1980
12-02-10, 12:28 PM
which engine do you have?

dkozloski
12-02-10, 12:52 PM
Whoever did the oil change used the wrong filter without a drainback valve. When the car sits for a while all the oil drains back to the sump and it takes a while to build proper pressure after the next start. Take the car back and make them install an OEM filter.

LAC_STS
12-02-10, 01:16 PM
I did the last oil change. I used a Delco filter. I dont have the part number off hand but I can get it.

If I take the oil filter out what is the drainback valve?


The engine is a 3.6L.


One other thing I noticed which I know doesnt make sense because the oil life monitor goes by how many RPM, starts, temp, etc. But The last 10 oil changes have been the same where at around 6500-7000 miles my monitor says 30-35 % left. This time though Ive only drove 4K miles and it says 29%.


Doesnt make sense.



Thanks so much.

dkozloski
12-02-10, 03:39 PM
The rate at which the OLM unwinds depends on operating conditions. The parameter that seems to have the most influence on the OLM is oil temp because the 3.6L has no oil cooler.

LAC_STS
12-03-10, 12:47 PM
K thanks


so how do I check this filter and see if it has the drain back valve? I cant find the receipt with the part number on it. I guess I could go to the parts store and check but it'd be easier to look for the valve.



Thanks again

skexius
12-04-10, 02:30 AM
Well my GMPP warrenty is up in about 6K miles. Which is about 2 months for me.

And now Im having a big problem.

This has happened twice so far. Once about 3 weeks ago and then yesterday.


So does everyone know when you change the oil on an older engine like a 350, when you start it after you fill it with new oil it sometimes sounds like hell for 2 seconds right when it starts?

Thats what Im dealing with on my STS.

It sounds like rods are gonna start flyin for about 2 seconds then it stops and sounds normal.


Its only done this twice so far. I have no idea why. Oil level is fine, oil was changed about 4K miles ago.

Anyone have an idea?



Thanks

LAC_STS,As to your GMPP warranty expiring soon, if you did not know, you can buy another extended GMPP warranty as you are still in your current GMPP warranty. You need to look into it right away before your GMPP runs out. It cannot be bought again after your original GMPP has expired!I know this because as my 'business card' information above says, I am also an original owner of a 2003 Oldsmobile Aurora. I bought the GMPP when I first bought the car new. It was going to expire in 2009 and I was able to purchase another GMPP for 3 more years from another GM dealer. I am on my second GMPP and my car is covered until 2012. I have a GMPP on my Seville STS until 2012, but I am second owner of it and I bought the GMPP at purchase on it. I suggest that you contact www.gmoutlet.com (http://www.gmoutlet.com), http://www.capperautogroup.com/index-4.html (http://http://www.capperautogroup.com/index-4.html), and your local GM dealers to get quotes on a GMPP. The websites take you to dealers that sell the GMPP online at a great discount. Compare and bargain with them just as if you were buying a vehicle from them so that you can get the lowest price possible. At the capperauto website, speak to Steve Bryant, the Business Manager. Hope this helps!skexius

Greg00coupe
12-04-10, 11:44 AM
I'd think the suggestion regarding the filter is a good one. Consider this even if you have the right filter maybe it is defective. I think I would start off with a new filter first. Best of luck.

BaTu
12-04-10, 01:35 PM
LAC_STS,As to your GMPP warranty expiring soon, if you did not know, you can buy another extended GMPP warranty as you are still in your current GMPP warranty. You need to look into it right away before your GMPP runs out. It cannot be bought again after your original GMPP has expired!I know this because as my 'business card' information above says, I am also an original owner of a 2003 Oldsmobile Aurora. I bought the GMPP when I first bought the car new. It was going to expire in 2009 and I was able to purchase another GMPP for 3 more years from another GM dealer. I am on my second GMPP and my car is covered until 2012. I have a GMPP on my Seville STS until 2012, but I am second owner of it and I bought the GMPP at purchase on it. I suggest that you contact www.gmoutlet.com (http://www.gmoutlet.com), http://www.capperautogroup.com/index-4.html (http://http://www.capperautogroup.com/index-4.html), and your local GM dealers to get quotes on a GMPP. The websites take you to dealers that sell the GMPP online at a great discount. Compare and bargain with them just as if you were buying a vehicle from them so that you can get the lowest price possible. At the capperauto website, speak to Steve Bryant, the Business Manager. Hope this helps!skexius

I'm all for shopping for the lowest price, but I wouldn't forget the good will you could gain by buying from whom ever you were going to have the work done by either. Get the best quote you can and approach your local dealership with it....

I'd even spend a little bit more with my local guy, it might come in handy one day on an "iffy" claim call ;)

After all, they're All paying the same price (with a healthy mark-up), so if one dealership can do it online for you, your local guys should be able to at least come close!

AllGoNShow
12-04-10, 01:40 PM
LAC, same motor, same noises here. I have tried all sorts of filters, including OEM, no noise change over here. My mechanic said it was lifters, that were probably clogged and not pressurizing correctly until the oil pump has come up to full pressure (5 seconds after start) then the noise goes almost all away. Easiest fix is going to be a quick engine flush/sea-foam treatment which I may even do today, hardest is going be the $2900 to replace all 24 lifters :S.

LAC_STS
12-04-10, 02:21 PM
LAC, same motor, same noises here. I have tried all sorts of filters, including OEM, no noise change over here. My mechanic said it was lifters, that were probably clogged and not pressurizing correctly until the oil pump has come up to full pressure (5 seconds after start) then the noise goes almost all away. Easiest fix is going to be a quick engine flush/sea-foam treatment which I may even do today, hardest is going be the $2900 to replace all 24 lifters :S.


Man that would suck. Im gonna try the Seafoam too. I might get a filter from the dealer just to rule that out.

AllGoNShow
12-04-10, 02:44 PM
Hold off for a bit if you can, don't worry to much about the noise (been doing it for a year now on my car). I have Seafoam coming along with a German product if Seafoam doesn't work, I will let you know what works for me so you don't chase too much :)

PS: Send me the navi info in exchange ;) Finally ordered a Navi last week, on its way too much :D

LAC_STS
12-04-10, 03:24 PM
Hold off for a bit if you can, don't worry to much about the noise (been doing it for a year now on my car). I have Seafoam coming along with a German product if Seafoam doesn't work, I will let you know what works for me so you don't chase too much :)

PS: Send me the navi info in exchange ;) Finally ordered a Navi last week, on its way too much :D

Yea I found all the info I got. Ill send it later today.



Thanks

AllGoNShow
12-04-10, 03:41 PM
Thanks :)

AllGoNShow
12-04-10, 05:22 PM
Seafoam is now soaking, I think my engine is ****ed but we will see if it works here in a half hour or so, going to run it, drive it hard, oil change then head home.

LAC_STS
12-05-10, 12:03 PM
Seafoam is now soaking, I think my engine is ****ed but we will see if it works here in a half hour or so, going to run it, drive it hard, oil change then head home.

Hey I sent you a pm. I don't think ur email is working

LAC_STS
12-07-10, 11:54 AM
My car is doing this more and more now. I might take it to the dealer before my warranty is up soon.


Any update?

AllGoNShow
12-07-10, 12:10 PM
Well half a can of seafoam into the engine oil has cleared up a little bit of the noise, I want to do another seafoam treatment or I am hoping my german stuff arrives soon as my boss had great success with that product. If its getting worse then have them checked it out, you could probably get lifters covered under warranty or timing chain depending on your noise location

KRSTS
12-07-10, 01:20 PM
Sounds like you have the CAM chain problem. Very common in those old V6's.

AllGoNShow
12-07-10, 01:27 PM
Sounds like you have the CAM chain problem. Very common in those old V6's.

Any more info? Told this to a couple of techs and it gets brushed aside :S

LAC_STS
12-07-10, 02:04 PM
Last time I was at the dealer was right after this happened the first time. I have read about timing chains going on these 3.6's so I asked a tech at the dealer and he said they've only had timing chain problems with the 2007 ones.

I dunno what the difference is between an 05 or 06 3.6L. I think its BS.

Im gonna have them look at it when I get time to take it there.


I think Ill look over the TSBs one more time and make sure I dont see anything.

Subsailor613
12-09-10, 10:50 PM
Whoever did the oil change used the wrong filter without a drainback valve. When the car sits for a while all the oil drains back to the sump and it takes a while to build proper pressure after the next start. Take the car back and make them install an OEM filter.

Went to Wal-Mart today, and looked at the AC/DELCO, OEM oil filter ,PF-61
(Took it out of the box),and there is "NO" drainback valve in it.
ALSO the PF-61E. Also looked at NON OEM, FRAM TG 9837,NO VALVE,
and the Super FRAM XG 9837, Same.
If there is such a system in the oil filter, please post pics or the
part number, As I would like to put them in my STS, for ALL the reasons,
this post has mentioned, Mine only makes a little noise, for about 1 second.
Not trying to be a smart a**, here, just looking for the facts, AND good
parts, that work well in my Northstar.Spec=GM 4718 and/or GM 6094.
BTW, if seems that Castrol Edge, exceeds the Mobile 1 specs.
Edge= $ 26.50/5 qts Mobile 1 $ 24.50/5 qts.
Filter $ 4 to 5 bucks :cool2::cool2:

LAC_STS
12-10-10, 06:00 PM
Went to Wal-Mart today, and looked at the AC/DELCO, OEM oil filter ,PF-61
(Took it out of the box),and there is "NO" drainback valve in it.
ALSO the PF-61E. Also looked at NON OEM, FRAM TG 9837,NO VALVE,
and the Super FRAM XG 9837, Same.
If there is such a system in the oil filter, please post pics or the
part number, As I would like to put them in my STS, for ALL the reasons,
this post has mentioned, Mine only makes a little noise, for about 1 second.
Not trying to be a smart a**, here, just looking for the facts, AND good
parts, that work well in my Northstar.Spec=GM 4718 and/or GM 6094.
BTW, if seems that Castrol Edge, exceeds the Mobile 1 specs.
Edge= $ 26.50/5 qts Mobile 1 $ 24.50/5 qts.
Filter $ 4 to 5 bucks :cool2::cool2:

I just got back fromthe dealer and the filter they gave me was Delco PF2129. It has no valve on it anywhere. I have the V6.

I am dropping my STS off at the dealer on Monday. I only have 5K miles left on GMPP.

I have a feeling this is not gonna be good. Two weeks ago when this first started happening I asked my dealer and they never heard of it happening.

Now that I told them it's all the tine and I'm dropping it off Monday they say they've done a couple timing chains and asked me about oil level, changes, and such.

I got a feeling this is gonna be some bs.

AllGoNShow
12-10-10, 06:27 PM
Let us know how it goes! If you get a bill can you email me the part #'s of everything they used too? I guess depending on the work.

Thanks!

LAC_STS
12-10-10, 07:44 PM
Yea Ill send whatever I get. Ill get a detailed one if I can.


So what are the possibilities you think? Timing chain, tensioner, valves sticking? Anything else?

AllGoNShow
12-10-10, 07:56 PM
Yea Ill send whatever I get. Ill get a detailed one if I can.


So what are the possibilities you think? Timing chain, tensioner, valves sticking? Anything else?

I wouldn't think valves sticking, that could be fixed with some seafoam to clean the grime out of the inside of the motor. If anything it would be more the lifters if a lifter failed/dropped/plugged up. Chain + Tensioner is a definite possibility.

EChas3
12-11-10, 12:49 AM
The V-6's had a run of timing chain issues. I think there's a TSB. Be nice but firm. It's a GM car with a GM warranty and you are reporting trouble within the warranty period.

Many a rant & raver gets nowhere.

LAC_STS
12-14-10, 01:08 PM
I dropped my car off yesterday. I didnt make it to the dealer as early as I should have so they kept it overnight. Which is good because then theyll hear what it sounds like in the morning.

Plus today is the coldest day this winter so far for us here.


The service writer told me yesterday they have had tons of timing chain issues with the 3.6L. Kinda funny cause last Thursday when I went there and asked about the problems I was having, I told him it could be the timing chain and he said they havent had 1 timing chain problem.

The writer even asked the other writers and a tech and nobody had ever heard of a timing chain issue.


This service writer and overall the dealer have been really good to me since I bought this STS about a year and a half ago. I hope this is gonna be the same.


Should know something today.

LAC_STS
12-14-10, 06:51 PM
Ill post more wheb I get home but the dealer just called and said that they couldn't replicate the noise and they said it didn't make the noise this morning when the tech started it.

But he said that since they have had problems with other 3.6L timing chains and tensioners they're gonna replace mine. They already got it approved through GMPP.

They said it will be done friday. He said its almost $2500 in labor alone.

Ill get a detailed list with part numbers when I pick it up.

AllGoNShow
12-14-10, 06:57 PM
Wow, why is it every time we drop these things off no one can replicate the noise, yet when we get in the thing every morning it makes the noise... I just don't get it. Thanks for the update!

LAC_STS
12-14-10, 08:43 PM
Wow, why is it every time we drop these things off no one can replicate the noise, yet when we get in the thing every morning it makes the noise... I just don't get it. Thanks for the update!

Yea I know. I noticed it louder and longer the colder it is and last night was the coldest day this winter. So it sat outside all day/night from 6PM when they leave there (at least) until when they tried to start it in the morning and it didn't make a noise. Yea right.

The whole dealership has always been great with me so far so Ill see.

Im just happy that all of this started now instead of 4-6 months from now when I would have no warranty. That would suck.

AllGoNShow
12-14-10, 08:52 PM
Good thing, that's what happened to me now I'm on the hook :(

LAC_STS
12-17-10, 05:44 PM
Emailed you the parts list. Actually a pic of the parts list.

The work order says they diagnosed it as "Camshaft secondary drive chain".


Maybe its just me but I think the car sounds different (better) while running now. I dunno maybe its me.

I just changed the oil too and they had to change it and the coolant to do all of this. Oh well.


So, maybe anyone under warranty that hears anything when starting the car in the morning should go get new timing chains.

AllGoNShow
12-17-10, 06:15 PM
Thanks Justin!

Sent you an email back but if your on here more, was yours a V6 or V8? I thought I read V6 on here but work order says V8, maybe I need some sleep :)

LAC_STS
12-18-10, 12:13 AM
I just did some reading and Ive saw that the 3.6L across all of GMs cars are having timing chain issues.

Some STS, CTS, and SRX owners have had 3 or 4 of them.

I have been complaining to my dealer about this tick sound that almost sounds like a slight lifter tick. First the dealer told me they didnt hear it, then they heard it and the tech said its something loose on the engine but couldnt locate it, then they told me its the EGR or whatever valve and they replaced it and it still does it.

Well guess what? The tick is gone. Ive heard it for so long that I didnt realize it for a little while.

The car starts and drives better now too.


I have read of some people saying that theyre car was never the same after having a new timing chain done. Saying they kept having problems.

I dunno. GM sure sucks on the 3.6L timing chain issue.

They should have sent a letter saying

" Hi, We are having problems with the timing chain on nearly every 3.6L equipped vehicle we make. So please bring this into your favorite dealer so we can fix this for you......."

EChas3
12-18-10, 01:30 PM
^^^ Yeah, that'll happen! Maybe Toyota would, now. With all their bad press, they'd have to do a recall on wipers that smear to avoid criticism.

LAC_STS
12-18-10, 02:01 PM
Do this, MAKE IT CORPORATE POLICY and three things will happen:
1) Customers WILL come back
2) Reliability scores will go through the roof (in a positive way) and
3) Corporate bean counters will stop sticking in the cheapest Chinese and Mexican made parts that they can find into our cars and trucks.


GM has come along way in managing its suppliers to avoid these problems. For example, above I noted GM's KNOWN problem with crank sensors on the 2000-2003 NorthStars... GM KNEW about this in early 2001 (as per the date on the TSB) and yet they continued to use these sensors in there top of the line cars for almost TWO MORE YEARS! Knowing FULL WELL that ALL would fail right at the end of the warranty period. WTF!

That seems to be a thing of the past... The next step is to be proactive in telling customers that their car has a issue that needs to be resolved WHILE the car is still under warranty and BEFORE some major damage results.


Id buy a vehicle from a maker who I knew would notify me and fix a problem than one who hides knowing something is wrong just to hope a few fail after warrenty.

EChas3
12-18-10, 07:40 PM
LAC - Right. Americans respect anyone that accepts responsibility for their weaknesses and works to overcome their failures. Many dealers still do. Big corporations too often listen to their laywers first and play CYA.

Common sense isn't common and isn't a sense.

z06bigbird
12-19-10, 11:33 AM
I had an 04 CTS with about 25k miles on it. It had some chattering upon start up. Dealer did a programming update, and problem disappeared.

next2pool
12-22-10, 06:02 PM
I don't think the V6 filter has a drain back valve.

next2pool
12-22-10, 06:05 PM
I posted the reply before I read the rest of the posts, but the vertical V6 filters don't have drain back valves in them otherwise you would get a hell of a bath when you remove the aluminum cover!