: I think the Hyundai Equus is too expensive...



Lord Cadillac
11-24-10, 12:25 PM
Eh! The more I think about it, the more I don't like the idea it's starting at $58k and topping out at $64k.. This car is definitely not going to draw many people away from brands like Lexus, BMW and Mercedes.

First of all, the car this most closely competes with is the Lexus LS460. While the Hyundai may be more exciting to drive - that's not enough. People who own an LS460 are NOT into exciting drives. And owners of the 7-Series and S-Class certainly aren't going to think much of the way the Equus drives.

Same goes for the Jaguar XJ and Audi A8 owners. Why would they want the Equus?

So this car is going to be for those people who can typically afford a little more than they usually pay for an automobile. It's really not THAT much of a bargain considering the Lexus LS costs just a little more.

You may say, "What about the rear massaging seat that leans back and has an ottoman?" - Well, Hyundai didn't get that exactly right. Unless you're 5ft 6in tell or shorter, you can't lay back without the seat in front of you being in the way. Even with that front seat pushed all the way forward and the seat back pushed forward as well.

And then you have the power. To most people, this doesn't matter at all. But in this "class", power is important. This car is not competitive enough. Not yet, anyway..

I think Cadillac has a good opportunity to best the Equus. Possibly even with the XTS until the 5.0 liter engine is available in the Hyundai..

Also.. Since the long wheel base version is not coming to America - there's not a whole lot more room than in the Genesis.......

orconn
11-24-10, 02:29 PM
I agree that the pricing on the Equus is not enticing enough to lure away potential buyers of the already established luxury brands. The car doesn't deliver either in performance or prestige what the European brands deliver. Let's face it your typical Lexus buyer is not adventurous enough, at this point, to take a chance on a newcomer from Korea whose prestige certainly isn't equal to the cars price tag.

ben.gators
11-24-10, 02:54 PM
Well, as I posted in your previous Equss thread, Equus is an expensive car, but the brand does not stand for that amount of money..... Hyundai is doing pretty good in family sedans, but luxury segment of the market is totally different. Hyundai will not have a big chance in that segment. You pay about 60K$ and at the end of the day you are driving a Hyundai!

Stingroo
11-24-10, 03:13 PM
But that Hyundai at the end of the day is the same or better than many other "luxury" cars.

Brand perception to me is a foolish way to shop for cars.

drewsdeville
11-24-10, 03:58 PM
But that Hyundai at the end of the day is the same or better than many other "luxury" cars.

Brand perception to me is a foolish way to shop for cars.

:thumbsup:

I think most other consumers are realizing the same, finally.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-24-10, 04:51 PM
Brand perception to me is a foolish way to shop for cars.

Agreed, and I also agree with Drew when he says that more and more buyers aren't looking just at brand status and name anymore. In a bad economy like this, the idea of great value and getting the most for your buck is important to everyone, even the super rich who would have never considered a different "non-elite" brand 5 years ago.

ben.gators
11-24-10, 05:11 PM
But that Hyundai at the end of the day is the same or better than many other "luxury" cars.

Brand perception to me is a foolish way to shop for cars.
Well, your argument is based on this assumption that Equus is better than many other luxury cars. I am not saying it is or it is not, since this is the first real luxury car that Hyundai is selling in North America (I guess Centennial was hyundi's first Luxury car, but it did not come to US), so there is no past history for Hyundai's luxury cars, and it is a brand new model right now, so not a lot of experiences and feedbacks either.

So you say me how do you know it is better than many other luxury cars? I personally never ever spend 60k$ of my hard earned money (if I had so much! :D) for a car that no one exactly knows how good or bad it is and it will be (now as a brand new car and then as a used car)... It looks like to an "uncut melon", you do not what you are going to get!

drewsdeville
11-24-10, 05:25 PM
Would you spend $60k on any car, period? Most of us wouldn't. But I'm sure if we were, we'd all do our homework and, if in the market for this type of car, we'd end up scoping it out rather than confining ourselves to traditional luxury names.

Jesda
11-24-10, 05:26 PM
Past base prices, for whatever its worth:
1990 Lexus LS400 - $35000
1990 Deville - $27700
1990 Lincoln Town Car - $28100
1990 BMW 735i - $49000
1990 Infiniti Q45 - $38000


Many Lexus buyers are still value buyers, they just look at value from a long term perspective: maintenance costs, dependability, and resale value. So, even if the Equus is thousands cheaper to buy, the unproven long-term reliability (Hyundai's recent improvements have only been over the last few years) and the likely poor resale value may make it unappealing to the more cerebral Lexus owner.

Lord Cadillac
11-24-10, 05:38 PM
The whole "It's still just a Hyundai" does NOT work anymore. Not when Hyundai is building the kind of cars Cadillac is supposed to be building. A DTS is "still just a Cadillac". What does it all really mean? Just a Lexus. Just a BMW. Just a Rolls.. The playing field is leveling.. There is no more "it's just a"...

hueterm
11-24-10, 05:46 PM
I agree w/you though...it shouldn't top $60K fully decked. And if the airplane seats in the back are a gimmick as far as reclining, then don't. Just do rear buckets w/a ton of leg room....

Stingroo
11-24-10, 06:26 PM
Past base prices, for whatever its worth:
1990 Lexus LS400 - $35000
1990 Deville - $27700
1990 Lincoln Town Car - $28100
1990 BMW 735i - $49000
1990 Infiniti Q45 - $38000


Many Lexus buyers are still value buyers, they just look at value from a long term perspective: maintenance costs, dependability, and resale value. So, even if the Equus is thousands cheaper to buy, the unproven long-term reliability (Hyundai's recent improvements have only been over the last few years) and the likely poor resale value may make it unappealing to the more cerebral Lexus owner.

Here's what those numbers look like now, adjusted for inflation against 2010's dollar:

LS400: $59,938.26
Deville: $47,436.85
Town Car: $48,121.86
735i: $83,913.57
Q45: $65,075.83


So uh... what exactly is wrong with the Equus again?

Jesda
11-24-10, 06:38 PM
Would you spend $60k on any car, period? Most of us wouldn't. But I'm sure if we were, we'd all do our homework and, if in the market for this type of car, we'd end up scoping it out rather than confining ourselves to traditional luxury names.

You and I might, but a lot of luxury buyers will put sales and after-sales service on the same tier as the product. My parents stick with the same salesperson, no matter what brand he's currently selling.

When one's time is worth a lot of money, you want to spend as little of it as possible on the hassle of dealing with different salesmen, brands, and products.

The LS460 is the closest competitor to the Equus, so there's a huge hurdle to overcome. But even if Hyundai doesn't put Lexus in the grave overnight, a small quantity of sales in the first year is enough to put fear in the competition.

I'm really liking Hyundai's concierge pickup/dropoff service.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-24-10, 06:46 PM
I'd buy a Equus just because it's the new kid on the block, I like it and I want to see it do well. I want it to do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes in '90.

ben.gators
11-24-10, 06:50 PM
I'd buy a Equus just because it's the new kid on the block, I like it and I want to see it do well. I want it to do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes in '90.

You are going to spend 60K$ just for that?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-24-10, 06:52 PM
No, but if I was in the market for something in this class, I definitely would strongly consider it.

drewsdeville
11-24-10, 08:53 PM
You and I might, but a lot of luxury buyers will put sales and after-sales service on the same tier as the product. My parents stick with the same salesperson, no matter what brand he's currently selling.

When one's time is worth a lot of money, you want to spend as little of it as possible on the hassle of dealing with different salesmen, brands, and products.


Oh, definitely. I don't want it to sound like I was making a generalization with that comment...I wasn't trying to. I just feel that the numbers that are willing to shop for themselves are growing significantly compared to the past. I think many feel the need to be informed and to understand their decisions - to KNOW what they are getting; a little more independence (at least, when it comes to the auto market).

Jesda
11-24-10, 09:51 PM
Oh, definitely. I don't want it to sound like I was making a generalization with that comment...I wasn't trying to. I just feel that the numbers that are willing to shop for themselves are growing significantly compared to the past. I think many feel the need to be informed and to understand their decisions - to KNOW what they are getting; a little more independence (at least, when it comes to the auto market).

Indeed. There's so much free stuff out there, its easy enough to at least be a little informed.

I read somewhere a few years ago that praise from a friend or family member was the #2 or #1 influencing factor in someone taking an interest in a car.

Playdrv4me
11-25-10, 07:15 AM
The price-point on this car is 10,000.00 too high. If they could have hit it at 46k base and say, 54k topped out (much like the 1998-2004 Seville) I think they'd have a hit on their hands. On the other hand, Hyundai may be playing the odds very precisely here. They surely understand that the average value-conscious customer walking into the crooked H showroom won't be leaving without EXPECTING heavy price negotiation. That 10k may well be there to give dealerships the negotiation room they need, yet keep a reasonable profit margin. It's a gamble of course, because the sticker-shock may well keep that customer from ever stopping by to begin with.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-10, 08:47 AM
But, if the car was TOO cheap when put against it's competition, wouldn't that scare people off too? They'd think it's so cheap because the quality isn't there?

mhamilton
11-25-10, 10:57 AM
I don't know.... that car makes part of me want to go out and buy a S550, pull up next to a Equus, point and laugh ;)

People's idea of brands may be shifting, but I still know *plenty* of people who say "oooh, it's a Mercedes!" looking at some 15 year old model like it's still worth $120k.

Playdrv4me
11-25-10, 01:07 PM
But, if the car was TOO cheap when put against it's competition, wouldn't that scare people off too? They'd think it's so cheap because the quality isn't there?

Yes I agree, but that's my point... 46-54k, or even 48-56k for a FIRST time attempt from Hyundai I think, is right where the price needs to be. It is still a serious step up in price from a loaded Genesis, but lags several thousand behind the LS460. Remember, the LS400 was similarly less than its competitors too.

It would only take one successful or even semi-successful debut at a price that reels customers in, for the second generation of the vehicle to take a considerable rise in price... also just like Lexus did.

Destroyer
11-25-10, 01:27 PM
Many Lexus buyers are still value buyers, they just look at value from a long term perspective: maintenance costs, dependability, and resale value. So, even if the Equus is thousands cheaper to buy, the unproven long-term reliability (Hyundai's recent improvements have only been over the last few years) and the likely poor resale value may make it unappealing to the more cerebral Lexus owner.

Exactly. In 5 years I'll bet you could pick up an '11 Equus for under $15k whereas a Lexus would still be over $30k for the same year. :cool2:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-10, 01:29 PM
Has anyone seen an Equus yet? I heard they're only going to be sold by the best Hyundai dealers.

gdwriter
11-25-10, 03:18 PM
It would only take one successful or even semi-successful debut at a price that reels customers in, for the second generation of the vehicle to take a considerable rise in price... also just like Lexus did.I agree. As posted earlier, Lexus undercut BMW and Mercedes when it launched the LS400, then kept raising the price as the car became an accepted luxury marque.

Regardless of how good the Equus may be, I think it's a mistake for it to be sold as a Hyundai. Hyundai should have followed the proven formula of Toyota, Nissan and Honda and established a separate luxury brand for both the Equus and the Genesis. Acura, Lexus and Infiniti all started with just two models, so it can be done.

I try not to be a brand snob, but I can't see spending $60K on a Hyundai. For that kind of money, I want some cachet as part of the package. And "Hyundai" just doesn't have that. Neither did VW, and we all saw what happened with the Phaeton.

Cadillac may have lost much of its cachet during the 80s, but it's clawing back. It still has models that are not very competitive, but when I first saw the commercial with the CTS-V setting the record at the Nürburgring, I loved seeing "The New Standard of the World" at the end. Because that one truly is.

Lord Cadillac
11-25-10, 08:44 PM
The problem with the Equus is that Hyundai cut corners. Lexus did NOT do this in 1989. Hyundai cut corners and priced it like they didn't.

As for the Equus being sold under the Hyundai brand - this isn't a problem for Hyundai since they're really just trying to sell Sonatas and Elantras with it. Still, if you're going to aim this high, it should be done right. They should have realized that a huge portion of Americans are over 5"6" tall and cannot enjoy that reclining rear seat and ottoman.

Jesda
11-25-10, 09:02 PM
I wonder if the rear head room will be a deal breaker. Cadillac sold a ton of K-body cars in the late 90s/early 2000s despite cramped rear seat space, and those questionably built cars sold without big incentives.

ben.gators
11-25-10, 09:08 PM
OK guys, I really have problem with "reclining rear seat and ottoman"...

The problem is why do I need "reclining rear seat and ottoman" in my personal car that I myself will drive it? Imagine: you are the driver, seating behind the wheels, and your girlfriend/ wife on the other front seat, .... So why should you care about having "reclining rear seat and ottoman" in your car? Who is going to seat in rear seats? kids? well, I am not sure that type of luxury in rear seats is very child-friendlly! Who else might seat there? Your friends? So you are going to spend money for "reclining rear seat and ottoman" so that the other people enjoy their free ride?

Overall, "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" might make my car like a very top luxury car, but simultaneously it will give me the feeling of being a private driver for a reach guy!

Please note this is not just about Hyundai, I will have the same opinion about any other make that wants to put "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" in the car. "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" is useless, unless you have a private driver and you yourself want to use them!

Stingroo
11-25-10, 09:44 PM
It's an EXECUTIVE CLASS car. Many cars in this class are chauffer driven.

Jesda
11-25-10, 10:23 PM
In America, I think anything in the LS460 territory is still driven by the owner, but features like that are for bragging rights. It definitely counts when it comes to luxury, which is having more than you need.

Stingroo
11-25-10, 10:46 PM
Well, yeah most of those cars here are driven by the owners, but maybe Hyundai plans on expanding to other markets with it too. Who knows?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-10, 10:48 PM
Yeah, it's all about the bragging rights. I'm imagining that scene from American Psycho, where Patrick Bateman (played by Christian Bale) is comparing himself to the other executives in the meeting, and how his haircut is better because it cost more, and how his glasses are better because they're from Dolce and Gabbana and not Versace. And so on and so forth. You impress people because you're driving a Hyundai, but you'll impress them because it has all sorts of stuff their S550 doesn't, at 2/3 the cost.

mhamilton
11-26-10, 11:33 AM
You impress people because you're driving a Hyundai, but you'll impress them because it has all sorts of stuff their S550 doesn't, at 2/3 the cost.

I'm pretty sure Merc had reclining rear seats for 20 years now (on S600 models at least). I have no idea what all the features are on the new S class, but I'm guessing it's still the most you'll find out there. Or is there something else on the Hyundai that's going to be their claim to fame? (aside from the price, clearly)

77CDV
11-26-10, 03:58 PM
Yeah, it's all about the bragging rights. I'm imagining that scene from American Psycho, where Patrick Bateman (played by Christian Bale) is comparing himself to the other executives in the meeting, and how his haircut is better because it cost more, and how his glasses are better because they're from Dolce and Gabbana and not Versace. And so on and so forth. You impress people because you're driving a Hyundai, but you'll impress them because it has all sorts of stuff their S550 doesn't, at 2/3 the cost.

This is where a compact build comes in handy. At least you and I could enjoy the rear seats. Poor Sal! :)

Lord Cadillac
11-26-10, 04:51 PM
OK guys, I really have problem with "reclining rear seat and ottoman"...

The problem is why do I need "reclining rear seat and ottoman" in my personal car that I myself will drive it? Imagine: you are the driver, seating behind the wheels, and your girlfriend/ wife on the other front seat, .... So why should you care about having "reclining rear seat and ottoman" in your car? Who is going to seat in rear seats? kids? well, I am not sure that type of luxury in rear seats is very child-friendlly! Who else might seat there? Your friends? So you are going to spend money for "reclining rear seat and ottoman" so that the other people enjoy their free ride?

Overall, "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" might make my car like a very top luxury car, but simultaneously it will give me the feeling of being a private driver for a reach guy!

Please note this is not just about Hyundai, I will have the same opinion about any other make that wants to put "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" in the car. "Reclining rear seat and ottoman" is useless, unless you have a private driver and you yourself want to use them!


In America, I think anything in the LS460 territory is still driven by the owner, but features like that are for bragging rights. It definitely counts when it comes to luxury, which is having more than you need.

It's not just bragging rights.. It's about how you present yourself to other people.

#1. I buy my cars with my passengers in mind. I've said it in other discussions - but when we go out at night or on the weekend, I will never be a passenger. I will either be THE driver or an additional driver. I want my cars to be so comfortable and perfect that people would rather be my passenger than drive themselves.

#2. If you're in the type of business or have the type of career where you drive VIPs around, it's certainly a HUGE plus to have a rear-reclining, heated, cooled and massaging seat with an ottoman.

I once received a 50% pay raise at a job for no other reason than my new boss being impressed with my vehicle (a white diamond Eldorado touring coupe). It's a sort of long but true story...


This is where a compact build comes in handy. At least you and I could enjoy the rear seats. Poor Sal! :)

I can fit in just fine. :p


I'm pretty sure Merc had reclining rear seats for 20 years now (on S600 models at least). I have no idea what all the features are on the new S class, but I'm guessing it's still the most you'll find out there. Or is there something else on the Hyundai that's going to be their claim to fame? (aside from the price, clearly)

The Lexus LS460 and Hyundai Equus has this reclining rear seat with ottoman feature. I don't know of any Mercedes that has it. The Mercedes seats may recline a little bit - like a Lexus ES or Toyota Avalon... I could be wrong but I don't believe I am.. Maybach has this...

Jesda
11-26-10, 05:20 PM
Most of these executive cars are piloted by lone drivers. And folks in sales or real estate (where driving people may be part of daily business) intentionally buy cars that show cleanliness without excess, so they'll go for a Maxima, Lucerne, Avalon, etc.

I think outside the livery business, adult passenger needs are pretty secondary. Its awesome to have the option though.

Jesda
11-26-10, 08:40 PM
Actually, after thinking about it, the Genesis and Equus are perfect for people in real estate. It gets you the niceness of a Lexus without the snobbery that comes with a premium badge.

mhamilton
11-26-10, 08:43 PM
The Lexus LS460 and Hyundai Equus has this reclining rear seat with ottoman feature. I don't know of any Mercedes that has it. The Mercedes seats may recline a little bit - like a Lexus ES or Toyota Avalon... I could be wrong but I don't believe I am.. Maybach has this...

Ah, I see what you're talking about now... yeah, the ones I was thinking tilt and recline a bit, and long wheelbase models had foot rests under the front seats (like old Fleetwoods)

Here's what the '07 S class had:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6028/221rearseat.jpg

MauiV
11-27-10, 01:51 AM
The whole "It's still just a Hyundai" does NOT work anymore. Not when Hyundai is building the kind of cars Cadillac is supposed to be building. A DTS is "still just a Cadillac". What does it all really mean? Just a Lexus. Just a BMW. Just a Rolls.. The playing field is leveling.. There is no more "it's just a"...

If that was the case Audi, Acura, Lexus and Infinity wouldn't exist. People buying a LS460 dont want the same dealer experience as someone picking up their new Corolla. The waiting rooms, the service department, the show rooms, the salesmen cubicles are different animals in these 2 very different worlds. Sorry but I dont want a "loaner" Elantra when my $60k Equus is in for service.

Hyundai could have launched a luxury brand with the Genesis and Equus BUT in this economy introducing a new car line with dealers probably isnt the best economic decision either. I think its just bad timing all around to launch this car.

The wife and I went and looked at a VW CC 3.6L AWD VR6 today at a VW dealer. That car could EASILY be wearing 4 rings and jacked up another $5-8k over what it is selling for since it is MUCH more car than the cheapest 6 cylinder, auto A4 on Autotrader at $33k. Thats $5k MORE for a smaller, less powerful car from essentially the same maker. Lucky for me I can now find a car that sticker for $42k at $28k (or less) with only 11,000 miles on it and a BETTER warranty than the new ones sitting next to it!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-27-10, 09:39 AM
What is the CC's biggest competitors? TSX and Regal? How would it compare to a Maxima in terms of size and features?

Stingroo
11-27-10, 09:48 AM
Sorry but I dont want a "loaner" Elantra when my $60k Equus is in for service.


That's why they don't do that. From what I've read when you buy the Equus you're given an iPad with a service app on it. You schedule service from it, they pick your Equus up and leave you with another one. You never set foot in the dealership other than to purchase it, pretty much.

MauiV
11-27-10, 12:46 PM
That's why they don't do that. From what I've read when you buy the Equus you're given an iPad with a service app on it. You schedule service from it, they pick your Equus up and leave you with another one. You never set foot in the dealership other than to purchase it, pretty much.

Sounds good, except for the fact you have to use an Apple product. Maybe in 2 years when you can pick one up for $30k they will be on my list

RippyPartsDept
11-27-10, 12:57 PM
also, i think they might loan out genesis if there isn't a loaner equus - but you'll definitely get one or the other, not any other hyundai

orconn
11-27-10, 01:07 PM
Let's face it so many of the features (read gadgets) that separate "luxury" (read executive cars) from their lesser brethren are really about "bragging rights" as opposed to significant utility. Over the years safety features that were only available on high-end cars have become available on less prestigious cars at moderate or no extra cost.

The inclusion of features such as reclining rear seats, self parking devices, superfluous horsepower, or to some "wall-to-wall cup holders, make for great "one
-up-manship at he water cooler, local watering hole, or even the weekly Cub Scout meeting ..... but really adds little to the utility and everyday performance of a vehicle.

Lord Cadillac
11-30-10, 11:19 AM
Actually, after thinking about it, the Genesis and Equus are perfect for people in real estate. It gets you the niceness of a Lexus without the snobbery that comes with a premium badge.

Exactly.. Right now, it's the best way to have a luxury experience without looking like a snob.


If that was the case Audi, Acura, Lexus and Infinity wouldn't exist. People buying a LS460 dont want the same dealer experience as someone picking up their new Corolla. The waiting rooms, the service department, the show rooms, the salesmen cubicles are different animals in these 2 very different worlds. Sorry but I dont want a "loaner" Elantra when my $60k Equus is in for service.

As mentioned by several others below, you don't have to bring your Equus in for service. You also get a Genesis loaner.


That's why they don't do that. From what I've read when you buy the Equus you're given an iPad with a service app on it. You schedule service from it, they pick your Equus up and leave you with another one. You never set foot in the dealership other than to purchase it, pretty much.


Sounds good, except for the fact you have to use an Apple product. Maybe in 2 years when you can pick one up for $30k they will be on my list

You don't have to use the Apple iPad. You could just use the phone like always if you prefer.


also, i think they might loan out genesis if there isn't a loaner equus - but you'll definitely get one or the other, not any other hyundai

orconn
11-30-10, 12:39 PM
Actually, after thinking about it, the Genesis and Equus are perfect for people in real estate. It gets you the niceness of a Lexus without the snobbery that comes with a premium badge.

I think that would depend on the market you were selling real estate in and what price level homes you were selling.

Now if you were a real estate agent in Las Vegas (and still in the business) an Equus might be just the ticket! Although the additional depreciation of a Mercedes or Lexus probably wouldn't be an "off putter" (hip Palin speak) after deducting from income taxes!